Where is commanded that I must believe Jesus is God?

Todd

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#1
In this thread I am not looking to argue whether Jesus is God or not. I am simply asking where it is commanded that one must believe Jesus is God to be saved.

In the Christianity idolatry thread, this question is being ingnored so I thought I would ask it here hoping to get it answered.
 





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#2
In this thread I am not looking to argue whether Jesus is God or not. I am simply asking where it is commanded that one must believe Jesus is God to be saved.

In the Christianity idolatry thread, this question is being ingnored so I thought I would ask it here hoping to get it answered.
OK - let me ask this this...

Does anyone less than God Himself deserve our worship?

Further, John 20

26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

So, Jesus accepts this worship from Thomas and does not rebuke or correct him.
 





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Todd

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#3
OK - let me ask this this...

Does anyone less than God Himself deserve our worship?
Wow I still can't get anyone to just answer the question....just more deflections. But I will humor you anyways.

The idea that no one but God deserves our worship supposedly comes from the ten commandments, but when you read the ten commandments it actually says "thou shall have no other God's before me".

The hebrew word translated as worship is also translated as bow down and is used throughout the bible for more than just "worshiping" God.

The hebrew word for worship actually means to bow down in honor, as sign of respect. Moses "worshipped" his father in law. Abigail :"worshiped" David, and Lot "worshiped" the strangers that came to him in Sodom. Abraham "bowed down" before the Hittites (Genesis 23:7), Jacob bowed down to his brother Easu. Joseph's brothers bowed down to him.

English translations have misled this concept of worship. The same hebrew and greek words are translates as "bow down" when it was human to human and translated "worship" when used towards God and Christ. Another example of English translators inserting their doctrinal bias when translating the Bible.

Now will you please answer the orginal question?
 





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#4
Wow I still can't get anyone to just answer the question....just more deflections. But I will humor you anyways.

The idea that no one but God deserves our worship supposedly comes from the ten commandments, but when you read the ten commandments it actually says "thou shall have no other God's before me".

The hebrew word translated as worship is also translated as bow down and is used throughout the bible for more than just "worshiping" God.

The hebrew word for worship actually means to bow down in honor, as sign of respect. Moses "worshipped" his father in law. Abigail :"worshiped" David, and Lot "worshiped" the strangers that came to him in Sodom. Abraham "bowed down" before the Hittites (Genesis 23:7), Jacob bowed down to his brother Easu. Joseph's brothers bowed down to him.

English translations have misled this concept of worship. The same hebrew and greek words are translates as "bow down" when it was human to human and translated "worship" when used towards God and Christ. Another example of English translators inserting their doctrinal bias when translating the Bible.

Now will you please answer the orginal question?
Well Todd, I hate to break it to you but I won't be your judge so you can deny the divinity of Jesus if you like and get some agreement from others but it won't change anything.

I was just wondering how you understood Jesus.

Do you think there was a time in eternity before he existed?

Do you think he fully understands the Father?
 





Todd

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#5
Well Todd, I hate to break it to you but I won't be your judge so you can deny the divinity of Jesus if you like and get some agreement from others but it won't change anything.
I have no idea what you are trying to say here?

I was just wondering how you understood Jesus.
I think I have been very clear how I understand Jesus, but just to make it clear I will re-state.

I beleive Jesus is the prophecied Messiah, the Christ the anointed one. He was sent by God to be the prefect example of man in complete submmision to the will of God. He was the perfect living embodiment of the Torah, God's perfect insturction and guidance for living. He was born of the virgin Mary, and lived a sinless life. He demonstrated the power of God through his miracles and prophecied that he would crucified.

He was crucified to pay the ransom for sin. He was not crucified to appease God. He was not crucified to save us form the wraith of God. He was crucified to save us from the curse of Sin. He was crucified to free us from the power of sin and death. We can walk in that freedom by faith in the here and now and be free form the power of sin. (I am not claiming that I have reached that level of faith where I no longer sin. However I know that when I put my full trust in God, I have experienced the power of Grace and how it frees us from power of sin.)

Jesus had the free will to not follow through the plan of God. He demonstrated he had a distinctly sepreate will from the Father when he prayed in the Garden for "this cup to pass", but demonstrated his complete submission and trust in God by stating "not my will, but your will be done." Everything that Jesus did in the Bible was not of his own power or ability but by the empowerment of the Spirit of God. He was the perfect example of all how we can all be used by God to demonstrate his power, love, grace and forgiveness.

Because of his obedience to God's plan of salvation, God elevated Jesus to Lord and Christ. God has delegated all authority and power to Jesus Christ. He will return and reign over the kingdom of God. When all things are eventually brought under submission to Christ, Jesus will turn the kingdom back over to God. Christ having fully reconciled all mankind to God will complete his mission as the messiah and God will become all in all.

Christ is the First born of the kingdom. He is the prototype of what we will all become in the ages to come. He is our example and teacher. He is our advocate before God. He has paid the price so that we can walk with and commune with God. Through faith in the work of Christ, I have a relationship with God, not based on my own merit, but because has chosen to robe with the righteousness of Christ. Because of my appreciation and love for God, who loved before I first loved him, I follow the commands of Christ and allow the Spirit of God to do good works through me. Those works are evidence of my faith as I am not able to earn my salvation apart from Christ.

Do you think there was a time in eternity before he existed?
I can't answer that because time is part of creation. There is no time in eternity. Did Jesus exist in the mind of God before God sent him to the earth? Yes. Does that mean Jesus was pre-existant? I can see some evidence in the bible that implies it is possible, but same as the idea that Jesus is God, I don't think it is important or curcial for salvation or faith.

Do you think he fully understands the Father?
Yes I believe Jesus fully understands the Father. He who has seen Jesus has seen the Father, becuase Jesus is the perfect representative of the Father.

So I have attempted to answere all your questions in good faith. I sincereley and humbly ask you to answer my question now.
 





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#6
God is Immanent in all things
ALL things.

Jesus even taught about the "single eye" ie the perception of God's total Immanence is to see the unity of God in all...
Hence when the disciples asked "show us the Father" Jesus said "if you have seen me you have seen God"
But it wasn't a literal starement but only that God was the power Immanent in Jesus.

Jesus made it clear he could do nothing on his own...everything was "That Father working through me"
And these literalists attacked him because they misinterpreted his words ie "omg he said he is God" and Jesus said "they are blind" (is their inner eye is blind to the unity and power of God).
So later the people who understood and followed Jesus....made mystical statements in this sense of perception...
Hence Paul said "to the pure all things are pure"
And yet centuries later Roman literalists who didn't understand..who were as blind as those Jewish rabbis ago threw stones at Jesus....took such statements literally and decided Jesus is "fully God"
Even in John 16 Jesus said the holy spirit has nothing on him and "he takes from what is mine" yet they said the holy spirit is also co equal with jesus and the father in Godhead.
Tell them a million times that the trinitarian doctrine is a lie and a bad interpretation by the Catholic church and yet they don't agree.yet they say the Catholic church was corrupted.
But they pick and choose how when it was corrupted just to fit into their personal theology.
They don't actually have any consistent argument.
 





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#8
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬
As seen by Thomas and this verse Lord had a much different meaning after the resurrection. This is evident in other verses too, I’ll link it later.
 





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#9
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬
As seen by Thomas and this verse Lord had a much different meaning after the resurrection. This is evident in other verses too, I’ll link it later.
Are you suggesting that in this particular verse, the context behind the word Lord had changed from what it was before? is there any evidence of this change?

Here's what I do know about the resurrection narrative from Peter in Acts 2

“Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

this perfectly aligns with my view that God was Immanent in Jesus (God is Immanent in all things btw)
That Jesus did nothing of his own, that God was the object of worship, not Jesus..
that Jesus referred to God 'in' him

23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him

if he was fully God, these words would say
"God was put to death" "but God rose from the dead"

Psalm 110, the term 'my lord' applied to the messiah/Jesus AS...has a clear distinction from 'THE LORD'
adoni and Adonai

the christians have purposely translated in such a way that when 'lord' is used they have capitalised and it suggests to the clueless reader that Jesus is God.
 





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#10
Jesus even taught about the "single eye" ie the perception of God's total Immanence is to see the unity of God in all...
Hence when the disciples asked "show us the Father" Jesus said "if you have seen me you have seen God"
But it wasn't a literal starement but only that God was the power Immanent in Jesus.
The one-eye sounds a lot like this eye


and the overall theology sounds very New Age.

Very One World Religion.



Narrated Anas:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "No prophet was sent but that he warned his followers against the one-eyed liar (Ad-Dajjal). Beware! He is blind in one eye, and your Lord is not so, and there will be written between his (Ad-Dajjal's) eyes (the word) Kafir (i.e., disbeliever)." (This Hadith is also quoted by Abu Huraira and Ibn `Abbas).

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/92/78
 





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#11
(1) "Saying: 'Put him (the child) into the Tabut (a box or a case or a chest) and put it into the river (Nile); then the river shall cast it up on the bank, and there, an enemy of Mine and an enemy of his shall take him.' And I endued you with love from Me, in order that you may be brought up under my eye.
(سورة طه, Taa-Haa, Chapter #20, Verse #39)



the hadith says "Allah is not blind in one eye"
context

don't tell me my religion, you are a stupid individual who barely understands things.

you: you need to become communist, it is the right way
me: the bolshevik/communist idea was a lie to control the resources of every country
you: come on, dont tell me capitalism is good
me: no...i didnt say that

months later
you: you are pro west, an israel supporter, an america supporter



you are a complete crackpot



You called the Quran a book of sorcery because reading it made you feel something...(and that was healing from whatever crap it is you have going on in you).

I guess instead of attacking you i should pray for you because you are clearly under demonic influence. there is no other rational explanation for the complete shit that comes out of you.
 





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#12
This thread is representative of what is happening in all the religions.

Orthodox, normal, common sense interpretation is under attack. It's "okay" to be a Muslim or Christian but you have to abandon orthodox interpretation and subscribe to warm, fuzzy "New Age" type nonsense or you're a "fundamentalist".

It is merely an extension of the technique of subversion which Yuri Bezmenov discussed. He actually addressed this specifically. The elite are fine with people getting into weird, fringe "New Age" cult stuff- but they don't want you adhering to orthodox religion. The militant, aggressive, intolerant "tolerance or else" crows that aggressively tries to force Nee Age doctrine and attack believers in orthodox religion (the end justifies the means in their minds) are "useful idiots" of the elite.
 





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#13
I have no idea what you are trying to say here?


I think I have been very clear how I understand Jesus, but just to make it clear I will re-state.

I beleive Jesus is the prophecied Messiah, the Christ the anointed one. He was sent by God to be the prefect example of man in complete submmision to the will of God. He was the perfect living embodiment of the Torah, God's perfect insturction and guidance for living. He was born of the virgin Mary, and lived a sinless life. He demonstrated the power of God through his miracles and prophecied that he would crucified.

He was crucified to pay the ransom for sin. He was not crucified to appease God. He was not crucified to save us form the wraith of God. He was crucified to save us from the curse of Sin. He was crucified to free us from the power of sin and death. We can walk in that freedom by faith in the here and now and be free form the power of sin. (I am not claiming that I have reached that level of faith where I no longer sin. However I know that when I put my full trust in God, I have experienced the power of Grace and how it frees us from power of sin.)

Jesus had the free will to not follow through the plan of God. He demonstrated he had a distinctly sepreate will from the Father when he prayed in the Garden for "this cup to pass", but demonstrated his complete submission and trust in God by stating "not my will, but your will be done." Everything that Jesus did in the Bible was not of his own power or ability but by the empowerment of the Spirit of God. He was the perfect example of all how we can all be used by God to demonstrate his power, love, grace and forgiveness.

Because of his obedience to God's plan of salvation, God elevated Jesus to Lord and Christ. God has delegated all authority and power to Jesus Christ. He will return and reign over the kingdom of God. When all things are eventually brought under submission to Christ, Jesus will turn the kingdom back over to God. Christ having fully reconciled all mankind to God will complete his mission as the messiah and God will become all in all.

Christ is the First born of the kingdom. He is the prototype of what we will all become in the ages to come. He is our example and teacher. He is our advocate before God. He has paid the price so that we can walk with and commune with God. Through faith in the work of Christ, I have a relationship with God, not based on my own merit, but because has chosen to robe with the righteousness of Christ. Because of my appreciation and love for God, who loved before I first loved him, I follow the commands of Christ and allow the Spirit of God to do good works through me. Those works are evidence of my faith as I am not able to earn my salvation apart from Christ.


I can't answer that because time is part of creation. There is no time in eternity. Did Jesus exist in the mind of God before God sent him to the earth? Yes. Does that mean Jesus was pre-existant? I can see some evidence in the bible that implies it is possible, but same as the idea that Jesus is God, I don't think it is important or curcial for salvation or faith.


Yes I believe Jesus fully understands the Father. He who has seen Jesus has seen the Father, becuase Jesus is the perfect representative of the Father.

So I have attempted to answere all your questions in good faith. I sincereley and humbly ask you to answer my question now.
OK, Todd...

Sorry for the late reply - I will speak to you as someone who accepts the authority of scripture as I believe you do.

The reason why I asked if Jesus had been with God from the beginning is that if He had not, God would have been from all eternity past on his own, in a sense like Allah. If Jesus and the Holy Spirit, the complete Godhead have always existed together in unity, this tells me something very different about the nature of God.

On the one hand we have the eternal, Unitarian, utterly "other" and alone. On the other we have three persons in relationship.

The second point I note is that we have Jesus saying with confidence "If you have seen me, to have seen the Father". Since no man has seen God the Father at any time, Jesus must have understood the essence of the infinite God fully, enough to make this statement. As the finite cannot comprehend the infinite Jesus is either guilty of a gross act of hubris here or making a true statement based on his own deity.

As to your question in the OP, I can only answer you from my own experience. I was saved very young and met Jesus in a way I understood at the time. My experience was profound and far reaching but I didn't know a lot of detailed doctrine. As I grew in understanding and relationship with the Lord, I came to understand in my heart and from the Bible who He was.

I am not the judge of your salvation, Todd. If you look to Jesus as your Lord and Saviour you are heading in the right direction though I have never met a Christian who doubted that Jesus was also God (so I'm on unfamiliar ground, unfortunately).
 





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#14
In this thread I am not looking to argue whether Jesus is God or not. I am simply asking where it is commanded that one must believe Jesus is God to be saved.

In the Christianity idolatry thread, this question is being ingnored so I thought I would ask it here hoping to get it answered.
Just below where it commands gentiles to keep torah...:p
 





Todd

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#15
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬
As seen by Thomas and this verse Lord had a much different meaning after the resurrection. This is evident in other verses too, I’ll link it later.
I do believe that Jesus is my lord and that God raised him from the dead...the question I asked is where am I commanded to believe Jesus is God?
 





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#17
So no where correct?
Jesus (PBUH) isn't God. However, according to the Bible, Jesus (PBUH) is God (although there's contradictions, I would argue).

If you are a Christian who doesn't believe Jesus (PBUH) is God and you're not a Muslim..... I think maybe you've created a new religion or a new sect.

It might be you know more about Christian history than I do. Are there any precedents in Christianity for such a position? Were there any historical Christians who believed that?

I think the early, early Christians would have believed that but I'm surprised to see that position from a Christian. I'm not sure if one can hold that position and be a "Christian," in the sense of a follower of the religion of Christianity as far as the modern religion and not the original, original Christianity.
 





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#18
The question isn't sincere because it would never occur to a Christian. Spirit-led Christians believe that Jesus Christ is God, and we have faith in God for our salvation. The question you are really asking is, "Why should God be worshiped? Why do you worship Jesus Christ? Why don't you worship ME?"

The question implies that if faith in Jesus Christ as God is necessary for salvation, there would be a place in the Bible that specifically says exactly that. Anyone who is familiar with the Bible and how doctrine is proven -- an ex-pastor, say, or Satan -- would already know that such a question is a dishonest one.

You are a wolf, @Todd, and there is a good reason why you reject Paul's teachings, especially what he says in Romans 16. You are described exactly, and you are to be marked and avoided.

17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
 





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#20
Why is it, that some "Christians" always seem to feel that they have to become mean to others just for daring to ask questions based on paying closer attention (than they did) to what the Bible is actually states Christ did say?

John 20:17 and Rev 3:12 are two verses that most Christians don't seem to accept, or read often, or they just ignore or try to rationalise away.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

And in Revelation (which was after the Ressurection) Christ says

3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the Temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my NEW name.

Christ obviously wanted people to not be confused on this issue, otherwise He would not have made a point of saying it.

A true Christian would be someone who believes and unreservedly follows what the Bible records Christ said. NOT what the churches and churchmen say ABOUT Him.

Yet here we are.. This is why "Christianity" should more accurately be called "Churchianity" because it follows the doctrine of the CHURCH, not of Christ.

Now, according to the Bible Christ made those statements. Did He say it for no reason? Of course He did not say them for no reason.

If you havent figured it out yet, like others have said, the church didn't have a CLUE what almost any of it meant and they went and grossly misinterpreted it. Christ also warned to stay away from them and even called them "the blind leading the blind".

So if you then go and disobey Christ by believing THEM and what they have to say ABOUT Christ and God, instead of believing Christ Himself and what He said and paying careful attention to His words... what do you think is going to happen? Besides ending up confused like them.

Churchianity is NOT real Christianity. Real Christianity is found by studying the Bible yourself, without the "help" of the church.