Where Did The Pre-tribulation Rapture Heresy Come From?

[cajun]

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Interesting response to the Darby, Mountford etc perspective...

 

[cajun]

I don't hear any actual information. Lots of hype to buy the book embedded in insults to those who believe other positions.

They talk about the so-called "secret" Rapture as if there is no history showing that this is a modern teaching (19th century) and that it apparently was introduced by a couple of Jesuits in the late 1700's and the 1800's who claimed to have learned this "secret" which of course is always a clever way to sell books. Not that the Rapture happens secretly, but that they discovered the "secret" of its existence.Tim LaHaye brings it into the 20th century and makes lots of money with it. He popularizes the idea that no one knows what happened to the missing Christians which of course defies the Biblical description of a very visible Rapture.

They misrepresent the other beliefs as rejection of the Rapture itself instead of as a dispute about timing.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I guess we can talk about it in a more informed way after the event, Cajun ;-)

Btw, just I couldn't help but smile a little when you express annoyance at the clip insulting the views of others, while the thread describes the Rapture as 'heresy'...

I know it's a good way to get a bit of debate going, but ease back a bit. Our salvation doesn't depend on our position on this doctrine and good people, none of whom are heretics take different views on the question ;-)

P.s. for a less confrontational presentation of the Rapture, I quite like Roger Price's take on the subject...

 

[cajun]

 

[Lisa]

I know it's a good way to get a bit of debate going, but ease back a bit. Our salvation doesn't depend on our position on this doctrine and good people, none of whom are heretics take different views on the question ;-)

It possibly might matter...if you are pre trib and you are stuck enduring the tribulation...that might bring some to fall away from the faith like Paul talked about in 1 Timothy 4:1.

 

[cajun]

It possibly might matter...if you are pre trib and you are stuck enduring the tribulation...that might bring some to fall away from the faith like Paul talked about in 1 Timothy 4:1.

The word "heresy" should not cause the emotional reaction it often does. All it means is that there is a small but significant departure from the true teaching that can cause serious loss of faith if relied on.

While it is true that the question of Rapture timing is not central to salvation, it is a fact that some denominations make belief in the Pre-Trib doctrine so central that they won't keep fellowship with those who question it while as far as I know the denominations who hold to other timelines are not inclined to press their members into line.

The simple belief in a Rapture regardless of timing is enough. And I was more than a little surprised (nut not really) by the assertion in the second video that para- or post-trib beliefs lead to bad attitudes. I think thr opposite is true. Knowing that we face such great suffering causes most people to be less selfish and causes us to look for ways to be able to help people around us. I've noticed that some people who are starting to get interested in prepping are just naturally drinking and messing up a lot less.

I'm in a very low-income community and I have been frustrated and angered by the way certain church "outreach" programs in my area have turned into street-crime support systems which their free meals and raucous "worship". These tend to be the ones promoting Pre-Trib doctrines.

The connection is that they teach that it's enough to say you love Jesus and you don't have to be concerned about anything. But those of us who are pushing back against the street crime and are talking about actually preparing are seeing a turn-around. People are quietly co-operating to buy food in bulk and trade it around and make it go further. People are realizing that they really don't want to be panhandling for stupid stuff when they still have enough strength and good health to find even the most modest work because they are starting to think about survival instead of about pleasure as a measure of success. And recognizing that ultimately it is about spiritual survival and that requires moral survival.

(Of course I'm talking about peaceful prepping, not guns and hoarding.)

It's also closer to Jesus's actual instructions. He warns us against counting signs and thinking we'll know and He also says quite plainly that the days for us are shortened. He does not say we escape completely. He wants us to be witnesses in the darkest times to bring as many souls into the Rapture as possible.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

It possibly might matter...if you are pre trib and you are stuck enduring the tribulation...that might bring some to fall away from the faith like Paul talked about in 1 Timothy 4:1.

Hi Lisa,

From what I can gather, I think you and Cajun share a similar perspective here... The Church has plenty of room for Calvinists and Arminians. I know you take an alternative view to me but I won't be arguing with either of you on it as time will tell and perhaps sooner than some expect!!!

We will either be here swapping survival ideas when a widely adored figure finally fixes the Middle-East dilemma or we will be sitting down together for the marriage supper of the Lamb. I hope for the second, If I and those like me are wrong, our faith remains but we would know that our interpretation was incorrect.

I am determined to live like the Lords return is is immanent even if we don't 'go' and instead we stay for the time if Jacob's Trouble.

 

[Thunderian]

it's enough to say you love Jesus and you don't have to be concerned about anything

Matthew 5:
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

The word "heresy" should not cause the emotional reaction it often does. All it means is that there is a small but significant departure from the true teaching that can cause serious loss of faith if relied on.

While it is true that the question of Rapture timing is not central to salvation, it is a fact that some denominations make belief in the Pre-Trib doctrine so central that they won't keep fellowship with those who question it while as far as I know the denominations who hold to other timelines are not inclined to press their members into line.

The simple belief in a Rapture regardless of timing is enough. And I was more than a little surprised (nut not really) by the assertion in the second video that para- or post-trib beliefs lead to bad attitudes. I think thr opposite is true. Knowing that we face such great suffering causes most people to be less selfish and causes us to look for ways to be able to help people around us. I've noticed that some people who are starting to get interested in prepping are just naturally drinking and messing up a lot less.

I'm in a very low-income community and I have been frustrated and angered by the way certain church "outreach" programs in my area have turned into street-crime support systems which their free meals and raucous "worship". These tend to be the ones promoting Pre-Trib doctrines.

The connection is that they teach that it's enough to say you love Jesus and you don't have to be concerned about anything. But those of us who are pushing back against the street crime and are talking about actually preparing are seeing a turn-around. People are quietly co-operating to buy food in bulk and trade it around and make it go further. People are realizing that they really don't want to be panhandling for stupid stuff when they still have enough strength and good health to find even the most modest work because they are starting to think about survival instead of about pleasure as a measure of success. And recognizing that ultimately it is about spiritual survival and that requires moral survival.

(Of course I'm talking about peaceful prepping, not guns and hoarding.)

It's also closer to Jesus's actual instructions. He warns us against counting signs and thinking we'll know and He also says quite plainly that the days for us are shortened. He does not say we escape completely. He wants us to be witnesses in the darkest times to bring as many souls into the Rapture as possible.

I think you do wisely to prepare for turbulant times - I do too.

Whether we go into the Tribulation or live through the 'birth pains' things may get very rocky.... In either event it makes practical sense to make certain preparations.

Also, we may all need to decide in our hearts what we would do if it came to down to choosing to reject Jesus or face death.

I don't think it is helpful when negative examples of people's motivations who take a different perspective are used in support of a particular position.

We have Arminian Christians who emphasise the importance of works characterising those who believe in the primary role of faith and God's grace being sufficient, as loose living, spineless types, ready to crumble at the first hint of persecution.

We also have Calvinists who paint those who stress the value of 'abiding' in the Lord each day as joyless legalists, neurotically worrying about their eternal state rather than reaching out to others.

Such characterisations may well be true of some people but they do little to shed light on what the truth might be (and upset those of alternate views as they feel hurt and misrepresented by the characature).

In truth there are past, present and future components to our spiritual walk and each are important.

In my view, whether or not we face The Tribulation, we will face tribulation, and it looks fairly immenant.

 

[cajun]

I think you do wisely to prepare for turbulant times - I do too.

Whether we go into the Tribulation or live through the 'birth pains' things may get very rocky.... In either event it makes practical sense to make certain preparations.

Also, we may all need to decide in our hearts what we would do if it came to down to choosing to reject Jesus or face death.

I don't think it is helpful when negative examples of people's motivations who take a different perspective are used in support of a particular position.

We have Arminian Christians who emphasise the importance of works characterising those who believe in the primary role of faith and God's grace being sufficient, as loose living, spineless types, ready to crumble at the first hint of persecution.

We also have Calvinists who paint those who stress the value of 'abiding' in the Lord each day as joyless legalists, neurotically worrying about their eternal state rather than reaching out to others.

Such characterisations may well be true of some people but they do little to shed light on what the truth might be (and upset those of alternate views as they feel hurt and misrepresented by the characature).

In truth there are past, present and future components to our spiritual walk and each are important.

In my view, whether or not we face The Tribulation, we will face tribulation, and it looks fairly immenant.

That's why prepping is an extremely useful witnessing practice. It forces us to examine every part of our material existence and it allows us to see how much every element of Jesus's teachings about secretly praying and secretly practicing charity as well as avoiding anxiety and learning to peacefully tolerate loss or conflict. Then when we look at the model of community given in Acts and the model of leadership given in the letters of Paul, we have the best soul-winning strategy I've ever seen.

This kind of prepping allows people to simply work togetherr without debating each other's beliefs. The conversations that arise naturally provide a window into our relationship with Christ. Beliefs that are naturally incompatible with Christ will either evaporate or cause that person to move on without a big argument.

 

[Lisa]

I decided to prep back when the computers were gonna crash and the world as we know it was gonna be a thing of the past. The thing was as I was staring to stockpile food, I heard what if you have too much? And I stopped to think about it. If God isn't the One behind your prepping then it's all for naught. He's the One that knows if you need to or not and I decided to not buy more food and eat the stuff we had. As it turned out 2000 didn't have the problems people thought we were gonna have and I would have had too much food.

 

[mecca]

I decided to prep back when the computers were gonna crash and the world as we know it was gonna be a thing of the past. The thing was as I was staring to stockpile food, I heard what if you have too much? And I stopped to think about it. If God isn't the One behind your prepping then it's all for naught. He's the One that knows if you need to or not and I decided to not buy more food and eat the stuff we had. As it turned out 2000 didn't have the problems people thought we were gonna have and I would have had too much food.

What do you mean by too much food?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

What do you mean by too much food?

Perhaps too much of a particular food? Tinned meat and porridge oats are OK in moderation ;-)

 

[cajun]

I decided to prep back when the computers were gonna crash and the world as we know it was gonna be a thing of the past. The thing was as I was staring to stockpile food, I heard what if you have too much? And I stopped to think about it. If God isn't the One behind your prepping then it's all for naught. He's the One that knows if you need to or not and I decided to not buy more food and eat the stuff we had. As it turned out 2000 didn't have the problems people thought we were gonna have and I would have had too much food.

Well, as soon as you begin to feel you have too much, there are always people in need that you can give it to.

I started to prep just for general emergencies which I took to mean having a month of survival just to avoid hassle in times of unrest. What I discovered in the process was that as soon as you expand your attention beyond the day-to-day or week -to-week consumption pattern most of us are used to, it is easier to eliminate junk. You also start to eliminate petty crises of running out of something once you shift to longterm planning.

Then I began to attach this activity to end-times survivalusm when I met some members of the End Times Survival group of street witnesses. They are more nomadic and less materialistic than I am, but their understanding of the Rapture, which seems to be Pre-Wrath instead of Pre-Trib, helped me put this into perspective.

Now I happen to believe that we were given Apocalyptic prophecies and timelines by the Holy Spirit (via the Bible) just exactly so that we can be ready for all possibilities. Those who can live as Christian nomads who have forsaken all in order to preach will do so while those who are led by the Lord to stay in one place and prepare, will do so. Both kinds of ministry are subject to the Holy Spirit.

Being one who felt led to find a spot to wait it out instead of travel, I find that I still have to be ready to walk away and leave everything if necessary. So my "hoard" is not really mine. And doing it as I am on a very tiny income is witnessing to others that rhe Lord does provide. Everyone around me knows that I buy things like flour and oil in bulk and also that they can have any of it if they bring a container for me to fill. We actually have a start on a kind of secret community garden without even planning it because the trade-offs of bulk groceries have extended to fresh veggies from personal gardens which are mainly container gardens.

We are becoming tribulation-ready without even planning to. And when you look at the timetable for tbe true Tribulation that involves 3 1/2 years for the Saints, then a combinstion of storage and nomadic foraging looks completely manageable.

 

[Lisa]

What do you mean by too much food?

I had bought and saved too much food that we didn't need because nothing happened...life went on January 1st, 2000 without a hitch. So, my point was that God knows when or if we need to stock up and will direct our paths in that way if need be.

 

[Lisa]

Well, as soon as you begin to feel you have too much, there are always people in need that you can give it to.

I started to prep just for general emergencies which I took to mean having a month of survival just to avoid hassle in times of unrest. What I discovered in the process was that as soon as you expand your attention beyond the day-to-day or week -to-week consumption pattern most of us are used to, it is easier to eliminate junk. You also start to eliminate petty crises of running out of something once you shift to longterm planning.

Then I began to attach this activity to end-times survivalusm when I met some members of the End Times Survival group of street witnesses. They are more nomadic and less materialistic than I am, but their understanding of the Rapture, which seems to be Pre-Wrath instead of Pre-Trib, helped me put this into perspective.

Now I happen to believe that we were given Apocalyptic prophecies and timelines by the Holy Spirit (via the Bible) just exactly so that we can be ready for all possibilities. Those who can live as Christian nomads who have forsaken all in order to preach will do so while those who are led by the Lord to stay in one place and prepare, will do so. Both kinds of ministry are subject to the Holy Spirit.

Being one who felt led to find a spot to wait it out instead of travel, I find that I still have to be ready to walk away and leave everything if necessary. So my "hoard" is not really mine. And doing it as I am on a very tiny income is witnessing to others that rhe Lord does provide. Everyone around me knows that I buy things like flour and oil in bulk and also that they can have any of it if they bring a container for me to fill. We actually have a start on a kind of secret community garden without even planning it because the trade-offs of bulk groceries have extended to fresh veggies from personal gardens which are mainly container gardens.

We are becoming tribulation-ready without even planning to. And when you look at the timetable for tbe true Tribulation that involves 3 1/2 years for the Saints, then a combinstion of storage and nomadic foraging looks completely manageable.

I think Cajun, that you missed the whole point of what I was saying...we didn't need the extra. God was letting me know that I didn't need to save anything and He was right.

What you do kinda sounds exhausting with all that planning and all.

It kinda sounds like when I read the left behind series and to avoid the mark of the beast they all bartered for things...

I wonder what you would do if you aren't going to be home for the tribulation? Don't the relatives turn Christians in to be killed at that time? I don't know how many Christians will make it to look up and see Jesus in the clouds...but I can't think it will be many.

 

[cajun]

I think Cajun, that you missed the whole point of what I was saying...we didn't need the extra. God was letting me know that I didn't need to save anything and He was right.

What you do kinda sounds exhausting with all that planning and all.

It kinda sounds like when I read the left behind series and to avoid the mark of the beast they all bartered for things...

I wonder what you would do if you aren't going to be home for the tribulation? Don't the relatives turn Christians in to be killed at that time? I don't know how many Christians will make it to look up and see Jesus in the clouds...but I can't think it will be many.

Relatives are already turning in Christians to be killed in many countries. I don't think you have any idea what tribulation is. It is just a word to you. You don't know that it is a series of events that are described in the Bible as covering a span of time, and so obviously people who are alive during that time will be going back and forth among their activities as usual?

You don't believe Jesus was telling the truth when He said that the time was shortened for the elect? Now you obviously assume you are going to be among the elect. So why are you calling Jesus a liar? For a shortened time is still time. He also explained that He was describing the coming events so that we would not be surprised, but would know the time of His return is nigh. Why would He say that if He intended to snatch us out ahead of it all?

Jesus is not a liar, my friend. He taught us all to pay attention to the Truth instead of to whatever sounds more comfortable or pleasant. He wasn't holding a flashlight under his chin and telling silly ghost stories at summer camp when He told us disciples what to expect.

 

[Lisa]

I thought it was a specific span of time...the last 7 years span of time. The majority of it being called the tribulation and the last bit God's wrath. I thought it was cut short being that it will only last that length of time.
I'm not a pre tribber, I believe we will be here for the tribulation but not God's wrath when we will be snatched away before it begins.

 

[Mr. Blah]

Why are there so many interpretations about end times?

In this escatological matter, Christian leaders interpret some passages without analyzing the contexts behind them OR the texts that have no contexts at all (for example, Paul's letters), then they connects them with another same kind of verses.

The wise choice is wait-and-see.

Always question yourself, "What if [....]-trib is wrong?"