Where Did Jesus Say, “I Am God; Worship Me”?

Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Messages
3,147
Isn't that Sura 5:75 please?

Sura 5:75. They do blaspheme who say: "("I AM") is Jesus the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! Worship God, my Lord and your Lord (John 20:17)." Whoever joins other gods with God,- "I AM" will forbid him The Garden, and The Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
5:72 I corrected my post, thank you.

5:75 is:

The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.
 






A Freeman

Star
Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
2,430
5:72 I corrected my post, thank you.

5:75 is:

The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.
You're welcome. It depends upon the version/translation that's used, as the verse in question varies from 5:72-5:75.

It should be noted that The Messiah (Christ) is NOT the son of Mary; Jesus was. This is something that "Christians" and "Muslims" alike seem to misunderstand, which has kept the "Christians" wrongly arguing their unscriptural "trinity" doctrine, and the "Muslims" wrongly arguing that The Messiah/Christ isn't the IMMORTAL Firstborn/First-created Son of God, Who CANNOT be killed by human crucifixion or by any other means. Only Father (God) can kill an immortal spirit-Being (Matt. 10:28, Sura 14:48-52).

Sura 5:75-76
5:75. They do blaspheme who say: "("I AM") is Jesus the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! Worship God, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with God,- "I AM" will forbid him The Garden, and The Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
5:76. They do blaspheme who say: "("I AM") is one of three in a Trinity": for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous Penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

God is a SPIRIT-BEING (John 4:24), and can NEVER be human (Num. 23:19), and ALL of His Children are likewise spirit-Beings (angels, souls, jinns, gods). This means, exactly as it says in the Koran (Quran), that Father (God) cannot have HUMAN children.

This misunderstanding -- not knowing the difference between the human and the Being -- is what keeps "Christians" and "Muslims" divided and arguing, instead of UNITING in one brotherhood, determined to do God's Will here on Earth, as expressed in His Perfect Law of Liberty and exemplified in His Eldest Son: The Messiah/Christ/Mahdi.

Which ones?
All of the Gospel accounts together form the Gospel, i.e. The Gospel of Jesus according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Thomas.

The amazing thing about the Gospel accounts is that together, they provide us with the complete story of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus, with enough detail that, when combined with the prophecies in the Old Covenant, we can determine the exact dates of those occurrences.

The crucifixion occurred on Wednesday, 21 April 34 AD, and the resurrection occurred 3 days and 3 nights later, on 24 April 34 AD.

It's truly sad that so many "Muslims" are so lacking in faith that they've been conned into believing the LIE that God's Word has been corrupted, when God Himself said that could NEVER happen.

Sura 15:9-10
15:9. We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
15:10. We did send Apostles BEFORE THEE amongst the religious sects (John 17:21; Sura 6:159) of old:

Sura 32:23. We did indeed aforetime give The Book (The Torah) to Moses: be then NOT IN DOUBT of its (The Torah) reaching (THEE): and We made it a Guide to the Children of Israel.

Sura 3:1-3
3:1. A. L. M. (Almighty. Loving. Merciful.)
3:2. Allah (God). There is no God but He,- the Living, the Self-Existing (YHWH - "I AM"), Eternal.
3:3. It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it and He sent down The Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the Criterion (of Judgment between right and wrong).

Sura 3:45-50
3:45. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of The Word (John 1:1-5) from Him: he will be called Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God.
3:46. He shall speak to the people in childhood (Luke 2:40-47) and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."
3:47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: when He hath decreed a plan, He only saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
3:48. And God will teach him The Book (Old Covenant) and Wisdom, The Law (The Torah) and The Gospel (John 5:20, 7:15-19, Sura 7:157-158),
3:49. And (appoint him) an Apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: and I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I enliven the dead, by God's leave and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
3:50. (I have come to you), to affirm The Law which was before me (Matt. 5:17-20). And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you (Eph. 2:15, Col. 2:14); I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me (Christ).

Sura 6:153-157
6:153. Verily, THIS is MY Way, leading straight: follow it: follow not (other) ways (Matt. 7:13-14): they will scatter you away from His (Great) Way (Matt. 15:14): thus doth He command YOU, that ye may be righteous.
6:154. Moreover, We gave Moses the Book (Torah), COMPLETING (Our favour) to those who would do right, and explaining ALL things IN DETAIL (Deut. 4:2, 12:32),- and a GUIDE and a MERCY, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
6:155. And this (Torah) is a Book which We have revealed as a BLESSING (Deut. 28:1-14): so follow it and be righteous (Deut. 30:15-20, Matt. 5:48), that YE may receive mercy (Sura 32:23):
6:156. Lest YE should say: "The Book (Torah) was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by careful study:"
6:157. Or lest YE should say: "If the Book (Torah) had only been sent down to US, we should have FOLLOWED its guidance BETTER than they (Sura 32:23)." Now then hath come unto YOU a clear (Sign) from your Lord,- and a GUIDE and a MERCY: then WHO COULD DO MORE WRONG THAN ONE WHO REJECTETH "I AM"'S SIGNS (and Torah - Bible), AND TURNETH AWAY THEREFROM? In good time shall We requite those who turn away from Our Signs, with a dreadful penalty, for their turning away.

The Koran was sent to CONFIRM the Bible, NOT to contradict it, exactly as it says repeatedly throughout the Koran (see: Sura 2:97-98, 3:1-3, 4:47, 5:51, 6:92-94, 6:153-157, 10:37, 12:111, 22:52, 35:31, 46:12, 61:6-7).
 






Svabhava

Rookie
Joined
Jul 20, 2020
Messages
38
... the Qur’an does not teach that the Gospels have been corrupted...

Quranic verses warning of the bible's corruption, or just the Gospels corruption-- I think they would have been posted by now, if they existed.
You did not answer the question I asked, @elsbet


(I think I know why you avoided answering.......)
 






Steven Avery

Rookie
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
Messages
17
This hadith accuses the Bible of corruption.

O community of Muslims, how is it that you seek wisdom from the People of the Book? Your book, brought down upon His Prophet—blessings and peace of God upon him—is the latest report about God. You read a Book that has not been distorted, but the People of the Book, as God related to you, exchanged that which God wrote [for something else], changing the book with their hands. 1

1. al-Bukhârî, Sahlh, K. al-Shahädät, 29 (Beirut: Dâr al-Kutub al-'Ilmiyya, 1420/1999)

On the Qur'anic Accusation of Scriptural Falsification (tahrîf) and Christian Anti-Jewish Polemic (2010)
Gabriel Said
 






Daze

Established
Joined
Jun 28, 2020
Messages
384
This hadith accuses the Bible of corruption...
Do you think the Bible is not corrupted?

What do you think about Jews being allowed to lend with Interest while it is forbidden to you and me?

Here's a very interesting video by Ahmad Deedat. He shows 2 "twin" bibles with very different interiors.
Question is, can you spare 3 minutes to educate yourself?
 






Daze

Established
Joined
Jun 28, 2020
Messages
384
And I simply answered the question of Svabhava, who apparently thought that there was no such spot accusing the Bible.

Point made.
And I am not interested in dancing around.
I must have missed his post. I think there are some 2000 different versions of the Bible today. Its pretty crazy for someone to argue it hasn't been altered.

For what its worth I'm pretty sure Svabhava is not a Muslim. Hindu, Buddist? idr.
 






Steven Avery

Rookie
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
Messages
17
I must have missed his post. I think there are some 2000 different versions of the Bible today. Its pretty crazy for someone to argue it hasn't been altered.
I accept my Authorized Version as the pure and perfect word of God. The Westcott-Hort recension corruptions are especially of no interest at all.

As I said, I was simply answering the question.

The question may have been from elsbet:

... the Qur’an does not teach that the Gospels have been corrupted...

Quranic verses warning of the bible's corruption, or just the Gospels corruption-- I think they would have been posted by now, if they existed.
 






Supernova

Newbie
Joined
Jan 4, 2021
Messages
4
Jesus basically said "follow me" and it means "let me teach you the truth", which is very different from "worshiping".

By definition Jesus is a Muslim.. because Islam means to submit to the will of God/Allah/Elohim/etc... and Muslim is the person that submit to the will of God.

The definite proof to differentiate between Jesus and God is in Luke 22:42.

All this means is you can expand your understanding by learning about the Abrahamic religions. You don't need to run and convert to any religion. God will pull you to whatever you need. Don't hate, don't highlight the differences but the similarities.
 






Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
3,105
This hadith accuses the Bible of corruption.

O community of Muslims, how is it that you seek wisdom from the People of the Book? Your book, brought down upon His Prophet—blessings and peace of God upon him—is the latest report about God. You read a Book that has not been distorted, but the People of the Book, as God related to you, exchanged that which God wrote [for something else], changing the book with their hands. 1

1. al-Bukhârî, Sahlh, K. al-Shahädät, 29 (Beirut: Dâr al-Kutub al-'Ilmiyya, 1420/1999)

On the Qur'anic Accusation of Scriptural Falsification (tahrîf) and Christian Anti-Jewish Polemic (2010)
Gabriel Said
it always feels like you guys have ulterior motives and are dishonest to the core, so even speaking 'the truth' will be a waste of time...
still for anyone genuine here...the highlighted bit doesn't diss the Torah of the jews, but their interpretations which they would recite to the muslims in arabic.

Narrated Abu Huraira: The people of the Scripture (Jews) used to recite the torah in Hebrew and they used to explain it in arabic to the Muslims. On that Allah's Apostle said, "Do not believe the people of the Scripture or disbelieve them, but say:-- "We believe in Allah and what is revealed to us." (2.136) (Book #60, Hadith #12)

now on this
Do not believe the people of the Scripture or disbelieve them
it's because to 'disbelieve them' could in turn lead to disbelieving in something that is true, since the ave muslim wasnt to know what was true or false from the bible.

Narrated Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!"

do jews believe in Jesus? nope
is he in the scriptures? YES.
in fact, one of the biggest prophecies about Jesus in the OT is the 'Book of Wisdom' which btw was part of the OT in the time of Jesus himself. It means Jesus and his mother and the apostles all used to read it. The jews omitted it and now it's only in the catholic bible collection, the protestants don't even accept it. If you read the first 3 chapters (esp chapter 2) i do wonder how christiansd could be so dumb to literally trash that, when it is literally a prophecy about Jesus, one of the most obvious ones ive ever read.

if i was listening to jewish interpretations they'd be telling me something else entirely.
for example in the middle ages, the jewish teacher Maimonaides actually quoted a passage from Daniel which in it's true context foretold the maccabean revolt era...and he linked it to Jesus instead. that was a blatant misinterpretation he did knowingly, esp since there is already a jewish text called 'the book of Maccabees' where they acknowledged those verses from Daniel being fulfilled in that era by the maccabees.

'writing with their own hands' again does refer to the interpretations..
in fact, id argue that muslim interpretations/tafsir are similarly guilty of altering the very meaning of various quranic verses.
seriously, there is one verse, 17:103(or it could be 104) where we're told that the Israelites will be gathered to the holy land before the end (as in the messianic kingdom), but some muslim translations and interpretations altered the meaning to something else.
i have exposed this many times on this forum btw.


Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar: A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) to Quff. So he visited them in their school. They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) who sat on it and said: Bring the torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee. He then said: Bring me one who is learned among you. Then a young man was brought. The transmitter then mentioned the rest of the tradition of stoning similar to the one transmitted by Malik from Nafi'(No. 4431). (Book #38, Hadith #4434)

clearly this doesnt suggest Mohammad rejected the Torah..he rejected the jewish interpretations and even then he was careful in outright rejecting them since they could be speaking the truth. instead he told muslims to just stick to the Quran to avoid error, which is totally fair.


there are of course numerous verses in the Quran confirming the authenticity/truth of the Torah.
the IRONY is that the very verses in the Quran alluding to said 'corruption' are yet again blatantly written such a way in the interpretations/translations, in reality those do not refer to the actual core text, but to the interpretations
so you've got muslims guilty of the same sin literally as they're writing their interpretation..

remember jeremiah says 'the lying pen of the scribe', the scribes were the interpetors. THAT is what is really the issue here, it isnt the text.
in fact my logic to this is that IF the torah was corrupt, then Jesus would have said so, he didn't, so i have no issue with it.
IF the torah was later altered, post christianity, then the christians and the jews would have clear differences...and im sure there are very minor ones only in translations, but otherwise it is all the same.

still there are clear contradictions, not just between the Quran and the Torah, but even within the torah, it contradicts itself and falls short on many things
rather than attack the bible, i put it down to MYTHOS and that esp includes the Genesis creation story, which is otherwise absurd...
but there's a wisdom behind the mythos..
hence the Quran always says that Allah revealed 'the BOOK AND THE HIKMAH/WISDOM' (to the prophets).
 






Daze

Established
Joined
Jun 28, 2020
Messages
384
I accept my Authorized Version as the pure and perfect word of God. The Westcott-Hort recension corruptions are especially of no interest at all.

As I said, I was simply answering the question.

The question may have been from elsbet:
The Quran and hadith are actually different sources. One is the word of the Creator while the other is what the Prophet (saw) said and did.

ie Els says... "The Quran does"..
and then you go on to quote hadith.
 






Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
3,105
I must have missed his post. I think there are some 2000 different versions of the Bible today. Its pretty crazy for someone to argue it hasn't been altered.

For what its worth I'm pretty sure Svabhava is not a Muslim. Hindu, Buddist? idr.
Ahmed Deedat was a cool guy, but he wasnt infallible man. I recall one time he quoted a random passage from isaiah mentioning 'camels' and said 'its a prophecy'
on another he quoted the Song of Songs and the word 'machmad' saying 'its a prophecy'
he was just a brilliant personality and an eloquent speaker..but by no means was he correct on most of what he argued.
highlighting the translations does call into account the problem with translations, but the Quran also suffers the same problem. go compare mohsin khan to pickthall or yusuf ali, they all have noticable differences


for example
in Surah Yusuf

Saheeh international
23.And she, in whose house he was, sought to seduce him. She closed the doors and said, "Come, you." He said, "[I seek] the refuge of Allah. Indeed, he is my master, who has made good my residence. Indeed, wrongdoers will not succeed."
see, it's like this man

the correct word in arabic is RABB
23.Warawadathu allatee huwa fee baytiha AAan nafsihi waghallaqati alabwaba waqalat hayta laka qala maAAatha Allahi innahu rabbee ahsana mathwaya innahu la yuflihu alththalimoona
the actual context here is that in the OT, the hebrew for 'rabb' is ADONI meaning 'lord', whereas GOD is 'ADONAI'. which is written as 'THE LORD'. So for example in psalm 110, 'my lord' (adoni) is quoted even by Jesus as a reference to himself, yet 'lord' here clearly doesnt mean God, but the christians misinterpreted it to make Jesus into THE LORD/ADONAI.

so when Joseph referred to his master/lord as 'adoni' which in arabic is 'rabb'...this is problematic for muslims given that the term 'rabb' is rejected by the prophet SAW and replaced with 'syed' (master)...right?

i doubt the majority of quran translators knew this though..i honestly doubt they considered the original hebrew israelite context behind the term 'adoni', so knowing that Joseph called his own slave master 'rabb' the translators decided
'lets just cover this bit and use a different word'
which is LITERALLY WRITING THE QURAN WITH THEIR OWN HANDS!!!!

so here are the other translations of the same verse

Mohsin Khan
23.And she, in whose house he was, sought to seduce him (to do an evil act), and she closed the doors and said: "Come on, O you." He said: "I seek refuge in Allah (or Allah forbid)! Truly, he (your husband) is my master! He made my living in a great comfort! (So I will never betray him). Verily, the Zalimun (wrong and evil-doers) will never be successful."
again same error/LIE


Pickthall (who was a convert to islam from christianity)
23.And she, in whose house he was, asked of him an evil act. She bolted the doors and said: Come! He said: I seek refuge in Allah! Lo! he is my lord, who hath treated me honourably. Lo! wrong-doers never prosper.
bingo

pickthall got this exactly right

Shakir
23.And she in whose house he was sought to make himself yield (to her), and she made fast the doors and said: Come forward. He said: I seek Allah's refuge, surely my Lord made good my abode: Surely the unjust do not prosper.
notice the capital 'L'? he actually misinterpreted the Lord bit to mean 'GOD' Himself,

this guy was clearly clueless

Yusuf Ali
23.But she in whose house he was, sought to seduce him from his (true) self: she fastened the doors, and said: "Now come, thou (dear one)!" He said: "Allah forbid! truly (thy husband) is my lord! he made my sojourn agreeable! truly to no good come those who do wrong!"
good, Yusuf Ali was correct too.

so 3 bad ones and 2 good ones? that okay with you?
how many more errors will there be?

here let me use the other example im aware of

surah al Isra
verse 104
Saheeh international
104.And We said after Pharaoh to the Children of Israel, "Dwell in the land, and when there comes the promise of the Hereafter, We will bring you forth in [one] gathering."
this one is correct


Mohsin Khan
104.And We said to the Children of Israel after him: "Dwell in the land, then, when the final and the last promise comes near [i.e. the Day of Resurrection or the descent of Christ ['Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) عليهما السلام on the earth], We shall bring you altogether as mixed crowd (gathered out of various nations). (Tafsir Al-Qurtubi,).
he writes his own opinions in brackets, he's notorious for that, but it's still right this time.


Pickthall
104.And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations.
h


Shakir
104.And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment.
yeh, that is wrong, he's altered it a little bit at the end, whole different meaning


Yusuf Ali
104.And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land (of promise)": but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd.
this one is a TOTAL LIE

the arabic inc the word 'akhira'
104.Waqulna min baAAdihi libanee israeela oskunoo alarda faitha jaa waAAdu alakhirati jina bikum lafeefan
could it be that the implication of the 'gathering of the lost tribes of israel' might have a political consequence in our time...and so Yusuf Ali altered this?

i mean, zionism happened in his lifetime!!


please do your own research man.
 






Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
3,105
The Quran and hadith are actually different sources. One is the word of the Creator while the other is what the Prophet (saw) said and did.

ie Els says... "The Quran does"..
and then you go on to quote hadith.
the hadith are historical sources of information and should be treated as such
they cant just be blindly accepted and taken at face value, we have to look at the context and intention behind them

personally i only really look at the political intent..
eg the hadith on Aisha's age at marraige.
I know that the shia curse Aisha because she was the daughter of Abu Bakr who they hated.
So Aisha got called all sorts..

due to the political rivarly and struggle in early islam between the shias and sunni-abbasids, the abbasids wanted to shut down the anti-Aisha propaganda by shia..
and they did this by presenting Aisha as a pure and pious child bride..hence all this special emphasis on her 'playing with her doll'
it is crazy that this was considered a positive in that time. the idea that 'aisha isnt what they say because she was just an innocent little girl'.
but it also highlights the difference between those muslims and us...because even if we argue that 'she wasnt a child' it doesnt change the fact they so easily wrote that she was...which obv means in their mind it must have been okay by their standards.
problematic...but down to utter stupidity.

still...

you know in the Quran, the Torah and Gospel are given confirmation and called 'the truth and guidance'
yet there is nothing in the Quran confirming the authenticity of hadith? since obv the hadith came later
that means the hadith have no divine protection
and yet muslims tell me that 'we only follow the Quran and hadith' (even when the Quran doesnt say 'quran and hadith' it says 'quran and hikmah' and that hikmah is not something contained on paper, it is something the prophets posessed anyway.

the point is, read hadith, as historical sources of information, but be open minded enough to question them.

an example is that in the same abbasid sunni hadith, there is a prophecy about the Imam Mahdi army, the 'carriers of the black banners' coming from khorosan
problem is, that this just happened to be the flag of the abbasids...and also, the territory they had in their posession

not only that..but the prophecy itself was clearly copying from a zoroastrian prophetic text called the 'bahman yast' which itself was a jewish created forgery/propaganda peice written in the 6th century, which plagarised themes from the book of Daniel...and the intent was to bring about an east vs west war.

so when you read those type of texts and spot the patterns, you realise that the so called hadith was a major lie
YET, due to collective belief these things to tend to come true to some extent.
 






Daze

Established
Joined
Jun 28, 2020
Messages
384
Ahmed Deedat was a cool guy, but he wasnt infallible man.
Do you ever wonder why we use the bathroom? Ever thought about it? It is said in paradise the restroom will be replaced with sweat. There will be no more excrement. Do you ever wonder why the Creator uses the example "Jesus ate"?

None of us are perfect akhi. The imperfection i mention above is a reminder to us all. We are inherently flawed no matter what path we come from or that which we take. Of course brother Deedat wasn't perfect as none of us are nor will any of us ever be. Still may Allah azawajal accept brother Deedat's efforts and grant him the highest levels.


Scimi told me about your situation years ago. I remember when i first read your posts, you were the first Muslim i ever ran across that used the Bible to defend Islam. I do not wish to debate or argue with you akhi or any Muslim on these boards for that matter. In my humble opinion It is our division that prolongs the suffering of Muslims across the globe, from China to Burma to Gaza and everywhere in between. The believers are suffering across the globe and you and me both know we are upon the haqq.

While we may carry different points of view it is best that we agree to disagree. You will never see me attack a Muslim. If you say there is no god but God and Muhammad (saw) was his final prophet, then i consider you a brother and that's the end of it. Regardless of what quirks we may have.

proxy-image7.jpg


May Allah grant us tolerance for one another and unite us on that over which we differ.
 






Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
3,105
Do you ever wonder why we use the bathroom? Ever thought about it? It is said in paradise the restroom will be replaced with sweat. There will be no more excrement. Do you ever wonder why the Creator uses the example "Jesus ate"?

None of us are perfect akhi. The imperfection i mention above is a reminder to us all. We are inherently flawed no matter what path we come from or that which we take. Of course brother Deedat wasn't perfect as none of us are nor will any of us ever be. Still may Allah azawajal accept brother Deedat's efforts and grant him the highest levels.


Scimi told me about your situation years ago. I remember when i first read your posts, you were the first Muslim i ever ran across that used the Bible to defend Islam. I do not wish to debate or argue with you akhi or any Muslim on these boards for that matter. In my humble opinion It is our division that prolongs the suffering of Muslims across the globe, from China to Burma to Gaza and everywhere in between. The believers are suffering across the globe and you and me both know we are upon the haqq.

While we may carry different points of view it is best that we agree to disagree. You will never see me attack a Muslim. If you say there is no god but God and Muhammad (saw) was his final prophet, then i consider you a brother and that's the end of it. Regardless of what quirks we may have.

View attachment 50577


May Allah grant us tolerance for one another and unite us on that over which we differ.
look at Surah al Isra then...
it is named after the night journey of the prophet SAW to JERUSALEM
it is a Jerusalem centric text, so naturally some of jewish history will feature in it.
the Quran highlights the 2 punishments that befell the jewish nation through the destructions of both temples.
YET
if you were only sticking with the Quran and hadith, you would not know about said history, you wouldnt know who did what, when, why etc.
However, naturally you have to study the Bible to know this story more in depth.

so it is really 'using the bible to explain the Quran'? where does this mad thinking come from?
it is a case of 'seeking knowledge' to understand the Quran. whether it's in the bible or from archeological finds doesnt matter per se. However it helps that the bible contains deeper stories (i mean, read the book of Jeremiah to get a clue about the babylonian invasion).

there are many hadith too which have their explanation in the Bible.

it's actually pretty cool that we have more sources of information to understand islam better.
i mean if you look at the body of work we already have, the Quran and hadith collections, no religion comes close to that amount of content.
then you start studying the books of muslims (and i particularly am drawn to the sufi texts, i mean Rumi's Masnavi is something else when you begin to understand it, otherwise on the surface, it is waffle).

when you add the Bible though, it adds a whole angle you didnt know existed. then you discover apocryphal texts




got a little challenge for you right now
i want you to go and read the English translations of verse 4:157
read them, have a think of what the verse means. naturally you will be in that Ahmad Deedat influenced mindset, which is cool with me.

now read
Mark 12: 18-27 and 12:38-40

now remember this sadducee sect, read up on them if you like


here is a text written before Isa AS
read the 3 chapters

don't just overlook this as some stunt btw..im actually showing you something you ought to know.
when reading chapter 3, think back to verse 4:157

if you don't see it, then forget this man.
 






Steven Avery

Rookie
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
Messages
17
it always feels like you guys have ulterior motives and are dishonest to the core, so even speaking 'the truth' will be a waste of time... still for anyone genuine here...the highlighted bit doesn't diss the Torah of the jews, but their interpretations which they would recite to the muslims in arabic.
The words in the hadith are clear. You can deny what they say, but it is rather tacky for you to try to accuse me of dishonesty on my clear and accurate post.

On many forums I would report that type of useless smear diversion.

remember jeremiah says 'the lying pen of the scribe', the scribes were the interpetors. THAT is what is really the issue here, it isnt the text.
You are quoting a mistranslation of the Hebrew 'in vain' idiom. Most all the Jewish translations get this right, and the Geneva and AV also had very learned Hebraists. Modern 'Christian' translations often mangle the OT text.

Jeremiah 8:8 (AV)
How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us?
Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.
 






Top