Where Did Jesus Say, “I Am God; Worship Me”?

Red Sky at Morning

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Where Did Jesus Say, “I Am God; Worship Me”?
by Simon Turpin on July 26, 2019

When sharing the gospel with Muslims, it is not uncommon to hear the objection: “Where did Jesus say, ‘I am God; worship me’?”

This is because many Muslims have been trained (by Muslim apologists) to ask this question of Christians and demand that the answer must be in those exact words. Of course, this is an inconsistent and irrational demand. As, if we applied the same criteria, then we could ask them to show us in the Qur’an where it says that to become a Muslim you have to use the exact words of the shahada (1st pillar of Islam): “There is no god but God. Muhammad is the messenger of God.” Although both statements in the shahada are in the Qur’an (Surah 37:35 and 48:29), they are not found in those exact words in that order as a formula for someone to become a Muslim.

Nevertheless, often when Christians do show Muslims that Jesus claimed to be divine, their response is to argue that the Gospels have been corrupted and therefore we cannot trust what they say about Jesus. This is a strange claim since the Qur’an does not teach that the Gospels have been corrupted, but rather commands Christians and Muslims to judge by what is written in the Gospels...

 






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DesertRose

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There is nothing rational about God incarnating as man or God having a son or needing an innocent to be sacrificed to forgive us!
God is Omnipotent and has the full authority to forgive our sins!
We are told in the Quran that he forgave Adam his sin!

Adam's repentance is the example for all humans to this day: repent and be forgiven.
The injeel the original gospel has been distorted according to Islam.
Already had this discussion with thunderian whom I think was using your article as backup.
Here is the Muslim stance on this from Islamqa info since I am not a bible scholar:

Praise be to Allah.
Thank you for giving us the opportunity to communicate and discuss the truth which we all need to know and follow, no matter what our previous differences of opinion and beliefs. It is only by means of this, I mean by knowing the truth and following it, that we can free ourselves of our sins, as it says in your Bible:
“Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free”
John 8:31 – New International Version (NIV)
So let us pause for a while and think about this truth, as it is stated in your Bible despite all the distortions and changes that have happened to it!
The message that was brought by the Messiah (peace be upon him) was the call to worship God, the One, the Lord of the Messiah and the Lord of the worlds:
“Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent”
John 17:3 – NIV
“A certain ruler asked him: ‘Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?’
‘Why do you call me good?’ Jesus answered. ‘No one is good – except God alone.’”
Luke 18:18-19 – NIV
“The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world.
And he said to him, ‘I will give you all their authority and splendour, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to.
So if you worship me, it will all be yours.’
Jesus answered, ‘It is written: “Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.”’”
Luke 4:5-8 – NIV
Believing in and worshipping Allaah alone, besides Whom there is no other god, is the greatest teaching brought by the Messiah, and it is the greatest teaching brought by all the Prophets.
“One of the teachers of the law came and noticed them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, ‘Of all the commandments, which is the most important?’
‘The most important one,’ answered Jesus, ‘is this: “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.”
The second is this: “Love your neighbour as yourself.” There is no commandment greater than these.’
‘Well said, teacher,’ the man replied. ‘You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.
To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbour as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.’
When Jesus saw that he has answered wisely, he said to him, ‘You are not far from the kingdom of God.’ And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.”
Mark 12:28-34 – NIV
But do not think that this advice was given to Israel or to his own people only. Rather this is the basis of the teachings of all the Prophets. The same advice appears in the Gospel of Matthew, in similar wording, after which he says:
“All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Matthew 22:39 – NIV
This belief in the oneness of God is indeed the message of all of the Prophets. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And We did not send any Messenger before you (O Muhammad) but We revealed to him (saying): Laa ilaaha illa Ana [none has the right to be worshipped but I (Allaah)], so worship Me (Alone and none else)”
[al-Anbiya’ 21:25]
This is the basic message to which the Messiah called people and warned them against differing from that. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Surely, they have disbelieved who say: ‘Allaah is the Messiah [‘Eesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary).’ But the Messiah [‘Eesa (Jesus)] said: ‘O Children of Israel! Worship Allaah, my Lord and your Lord.’ Verily, whosoever sets up partners (in worship) with Allaah, then Allaah has forbidden Paradise to him, and the Fire will be his abode. And for the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers) there are no helpers”
[al-Maa'idah 5:72]
This is the basic principle on which we should all agree. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Say (O Muhammad): ‘O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allaah (Alone), and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allaah.’ Then, if they turn away, say: ‘Bear witness that we are Muslims’”
[Aal ‘Imraan 3:64]
It is alien to true Christianity, this futile attempt to reconcile the belief in the Oneness of God, which is the message brought by the Prophets, and which is clearly stated in their Bible, and affirmed in the Torah in particular, with their belief in the trinity.
It says in the American Encyclopedia:
The belief in the Oneness of God – as a theological movement – began at a very early stage in history, and in fact it preceded the belief in trinity by many decades. Christianity developed from Judaism, and Judaism firmly believes that there is one God.
The path that led from Jerusalem (the home of the first disciples of Christ) to Nicea (where it was decided in 325 CE that Christ was equal to God in essence and eternal nature) can hardly be described as a straight path.
The doctrine of trinity which was affirmed in the fourth century CE bears no resemblance to the original teachings of Christ concerning the nature of God. Au contraire, it is the opposite, a deviation from that teaching. Hence it developed in opposition to the belief in One God… (27/294).
You can refer to the views of some of those Christians who still believe in the Oneness of God in the same American Encyclopedia, 27/300-301
It is difficult to comprehend, so no wonder you were never able to comprehend it. But what is strange is that you believe in something that is impossible to understand, unless we deceive ourselves and say that this understanding will come on the Last Day:
“We understand that as much as our minds are able to, and we hope that we will understand it more clearly in the future, when the veil is removed from all things in heaven and on earth. But for now, the extent to which we do understand it is enough!”
Yes, the truth will become perfectly clear to you in the future, as it is clear to us today, praise be to Allaah, on the Day on which Allaah will gather the Messengers and make them bear witness concerning their nations. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And (remember) when Allaah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): ‘O ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allaah?’ He will say: ‘Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner‑self though I do not know what is in Yours; truly, You, only You, are the All‑Knower of all that is hidden (and unseen).
‘Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allaah) did command me to say: Worship Allaah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them; and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world).
‘If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily, You, only You, are the All‑Mighty, the All‑Wise.’
Allaah will say: This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise) — they shall abide therein forever. Allaah is pleased with them and they with Him. That is the great success (Paradise).
120. To Allaah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things”
[al-Maa’idah 5:116-120].

Regarding Prophet Adam peace be upon him:

" Adam Sins.
Adam's sin, and its outcome is depicted in the following verse of the Quran:
"O Adam dwell with your wife in the Garden and enjoy as you wish but approach not this tree or you run into harm and transgression. Then Satan whispered to them in order to reveal to them their shame that was hidden from them and he said:

'Your Lord only forbade you this tree lest you become angels or such beings as live forever.'

And he swore to them both that he was their sincere adviser. So by deceit he brought them to their fall: when they tasted the tree their shame became manifest to them and they began to sew together the leaves of the Garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them:

'Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you that Satan was your avowed enemy?' " (Quran 7:19-22).


Adam and Eve Repent and God Accepts.
When Adam and Eve realized that they have disobeyed God by eating the fruit they called:
"They said:
'Our Lord we have wronged ourselves souls. If You forgive us not and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be of the losers' " (Quran 7:23)

And God accepts their plea:

".. Thus did Adam disobey his Lord, so he went Astray. Then his Lord chose him, and turned to him with forgiveness, and gave him guidance." (Quran 20:121-122)


The Outcome.
Adam and Eve were instructed not to eat from a certain tree. Satan deceitfully tricked them into disobeying their Lord and as a result:
"(God) said:

'Get down (from the Garden), one of you an enemy to the other [i.e. Adam, Eve, and Satan]. On earth will be a dwelling-place for you and an enjoyment -- for a short time'. He (God) said:

'Therein you shall live, and therein you shall die, and from it you shall be brought out [i.e. resurrected].' "
(Quran 7:24-25).

Adam and Eve were ordered to leave the Garden which they where in and descend to earth where they and their children will live and die, and where Satan will also be.


The Sin in the Bible.
The Judeo-Christian conception of the creation of Adam and Eve is narrated in detail in Genesis 2:4-3:24. God prohibited both of them from eating the fruits of the forbidden tree. The serpent seduced Eve to eat from it and Eve, in turn, seduced Adam to eat with her. When God rebuked Adam for what he did, he put all the blame on Eve:
"The woman you put here with me she gave me some fruit from the tree and I ate it." Consequently, God said to Eve:

" I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you."

To Adam He said:

"Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree .... Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life..."

In Islam (as depicted by the Quranic verses above) Adam doesn't blame Eve for their fault. Both share the responsibility and both receive blame, equally. Furthermore, God doesn't curse Eve for her mistake by "increasing her pains in childbearing". This concept was a contributing factor for the unequal treatment of women in early Christianity (for more info follow this link ). Most importantly, God does not curse Adam for committing a sin and that sin in not inherited by the whole world.


Every Person is Responsible for Their Action.
This is what Islam preaches. This is what people throughout the world preach. We consider fair that no person be held accountable or responsible for someone else's mistake. That if blame is due, then it is due on who deserves it. That if punishment is to be made, it ought to be on the one who wronged. We consider that to be fair.
The Quran states:

"That no burdened person (with sins) shall bear the burden (sins) of another. And that man can have nothing but what he does (of good and bad). And that his deeds will be seen, Then he will be recompensed with a full and the best recompense [fair] " (Quran 53:38-41)'
Source:

May Allah guide you and all our brothers and sisters in humanity to His straight path. Ameen!
 






Lyfe

Star
Joined
May 11, 2020
Messages
1,524
There is nothing rational about God incarnating as man or God having a son or needing an innocent to be sacrificed to forgive us!
God is Omnipotent and has the full authority to forgive our sins!
We are told in the Quran that he forgave Adam his sin!

Adam's repentance is the example for all humans to this day: repent and be forgiven.
The injeel the original gospel has been distorted according to Islam.
Already had this discussion with thunderian whom I think was using your article as backup.
Here is the Muslim stance on this from Islamqa info since I am not a bible scholar:

Praise be to Allah.
Thank you for giving us the opportunity to communicate and discuss the truth which we all need to know and follow, no matter what our previous differences of opinion and beliefs. It is only by means of this, I mean by knowing the truth and following it, that we can free ourselves of our sins, as it says in your Bible:
“Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free”
John 8:31 – New International Version (NIV)
So let us pause for a while and think about this truth, as it is stated in your Bible despite all the distortions and changes that have happened to it!
The message that was brought by the Messiah (peace be upon him) was the call to worship God, the One, the Lord of the Messiah and the Lord of the worlds:
“Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent”
John 17:3 – NIV
“A certain ruler asked him: ‘Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?’
‘Why do you call me good?’ Jesus answered. ‘No one is good – except God alone.’”
Luke 18:18-19 – NIV
“The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world.
And he said to him, ‘I will give you all their authority and splendour, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to.
So if you worship me, it will all be yours.’
Jesus answered, ‘It is written: “Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.”’”
Luke 4:5-8 – NIV
Believing in and worshipping Allaah alone, besides Whom there is no other god, is the greatest teaching brought by the Messiah, and it is the greatest teaching brought by all the Prophets.
“One of the teachers of the law came and noticed them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, ‘Of all the commandments, which is the most important?’
‘The most important one,’ answered Jesus, ‘is this: “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.”
The second is this: “Love your neighbour as yourself.” There is no commandment greater than these.’
‘Well said, teacher,’ the man replied. ‘You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.
To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbour as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.’
When Jesus saw that he has answered wisely, he said to him, ‘You are not far from the kingdom of God.’ And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.”
Mark 12:28-34 – NIV
But do not think that this advice was given to Israel or to his own people only. Rather this is the basis of the teachings of all the Prophets. The same advice appears in the Gospel of Matthew, in similar wording, after which he says:
“All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Matthew 22:39 – NIV
This belief in the oneness of God is indeed the message of all of the Prophets. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And We did not send any Messenger before you (O Muhammad) but We revealed to him (saying): Laa ilaaha illa Ana [none has the right to be worshipped but I (Allaah)], so worship Me (Alone and none else)”
[al-Anbiya’ 21:25]
This is the basic message to which the Messiah called people and warned them against differing from that. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Surely, they have disbelieved who say: ‘Allaah is the Messiah [‘Eesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary).’ But the Messiah [‘Eesa (Jesus)] said: ‘O Children of Israel! Worship Allaah, my Lord and your Lord.’ Verily, whosoever sets up partners (in worship) with Allaah, then Allaah has forbidden Paradise to him, and the Fire will be his abode. And for the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers) there are no helpers”
[al-Maa'idah 5:72]
This is the basic principle on which we should all agree. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Say (O Muhammad): ‘O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allaah (Alone), and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allaah.’ Then, if they turn away, say: ‘Bear witness that we are Muslims’”
[Aal ‘Imraan 3:64]
It is alien to true Christianity, this futile attempt to reconcile the belief in the Oneness of God, which is the message brought by the Prophets, and which is clearly stated in their Bible, and affirmed in the Torah in particular, with their belief in the trinity.
It says in the American Encyclopedia:
The belief in the Oneness of God – as a theological movement – began at a very early stage in history, and in fact it preceded the belief in trinity by many decades. Christianity developed from Judaism, and Judaism firmly believes that there is one God.
The path that led from Jerusalem (the home of the first disciples of Christ) to Nicea (where it was decided in 325 CE that Christ was equal to God in essence and eternal nature) can hardly be described as a straight path.
The doctrine of trinity which was affirmed in the fourth century CE bears no resemblance to the original teachings of Christ concerning the nature of God. Au contraire, it is the opposite, a deviation from that teaching. Hence it developed in opposition to the belief in One God… (27/294).
You can refer to the views of some of those Christians who still believe in the Oneness of God in the same American Encyclopedia, 27/300-301
It is difficult to comprehend, so no wonder you were never able to comprehend it. But what is strange is that you believe in something that is impossible to understand, unless we deceive ourselves and say that this understanding will come on the Last Day:
“We understand that as much as our minds are able to, and we hope that we will understand it more clearly in the future, when the veil is removed from all things in heaven and on earth. But for now, the extent to which we do understand it is enough!”
Yes, the truth will become perfectly clear to you in the future, as it is clear to us today, praise be to Allaah, on the Day on which Allaah will gather the Messengers and make them bear witness concerning their nations. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And (remember) when Allaah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): ‘O ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allaah?’ He will say: ‘Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner‑self though I do not know what is in Yours; truly, You, only You, are the All‑Knower of all that is hidden (and unseen).
‘Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allaah) did command me to say: Worship Allaah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them; and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world).
‘If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily, You, only You, are the All‑Mighty, the All‑Wise.’
Allaah will say: This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise) — they shall abide therein forever. Allaah is pleased with them and they with Him. That is the great success (Paradise).
120. To Allaah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things”
[al-Maa’idah 5:116-120].

Regarding Prophet Adam peace be upon him:

" Adam Sins.
Adam's sin, and its outcome is depicted in the following verse of the Quran:
"O Adam dwell with your wife in the Garden and enjoy as you wish but approach not this tree or you run into harm and transgression. Then Satan whispered to them in order to reveal to them their shame that was hidden from them and he said:

'Your Lord only forbade you this tree lest you become angels or such beings as live forever.'

And he swore to them both that he was their sincere adviser. So by deceit he brought them to their fall: when they tasted the tree their shame became manifest to them and they began to sew together the leaves of the Garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them:

'Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you that Satan was your avowed enemy?' " (Quran 7:19-22).


Adam and Eve Repent and God Accepts.
When Adam and Eve realized that they have disobeyed God by eating the fruit they called:
"They said:
'Our Lord we have wronged ourselves souls. If You forgive us not and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be of the losers' " (Quran 7:23)

And God accepts their plea:

".. Thus did Adam disobey his Lord, so he went Astray. Then his Lord chose him, and turned to him with forgiveness, and gave him guidance." (Quran 20:121-122)


The Outcome.
Adam and Eve were instructed not to eat from a certain tree. Satan deceitfully tricked them into disobeying their Lord and as a result:
"(God) said:

'Get down (from the Garden), one of you an enemy to the other [i.e. Adam, Eve, and Satan]. On earth will be a dwelling-place for you and an enjoyment -- for a short time'. He (God) said:

'Therein you shall live, and therein you shall die, and from it you shall be brought out [i.e. resurrected].' "
(Quran 7:24-25).

Adam and Eve were ordered to leave the Garden which they where in and descend to earth where they and their children will live and die, and where Satan will also be.


The Sin in the Bible.
The Judeo-Christian conception of the creation of Adam and Eve is narrated in detail in Genesis 2:4-3:24. God prohibited both of them from eating the fruits of the forbidden tree. The serpent seduced Eve to eat from it and Eve, in turn, seduced Adam to eat with her. When God rebuked Adam for what he did, he put all the blame on Eve:
"The woman you put here with me she gave me some fruit from the tree and I ate it." Consequently, God said to Eve:

" I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you."

To Adam He said:

"Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree .... Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life..."

In Islam (as depicted by the Quranic verses above) Adam doesn't blame Eve for their fault. Both share the responsibility and both receive blame, equally. Furthermore, God doesn't curse Eve for her mistake by "increasing her pains in childbearing". This concept was a contributing factor for the unequal treatment of women in early Christianity (for more info follow this link ). Most importantly, God does not curse Adam for committing a sin and that sin in not inherited by the whole world.


Every Person is Responsible for Their Action.
This is what Islam preaches. This is what people throughout the world preach. We consider fair that no person be held accountable or responsible for someone else's mistake. That if blame is due, then it is due on who deserves it. That if punishment is to be made, it ought to be on the one who wronged. We consider that to be fair.
The Quran states:

"That no burdened person (with sins) shall bear the burden (sins) of another. And that man can have nothing but what he does (of good and bad). And that his deeds will be seen, Then he will be recompensed with a full and the best recompense [fair] " (Quran 53:38-41)'
Source:

May Allah guide you and all our brothers and sisters in humanity to His straight path. Ameen!
Why do you believe that God or his ways conforms to human rationale?
 






Tidal

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Joined
Mar 4, 2020
Messages
2,444
Muslims say Jesus WASN'T the Son of God, so it's definitely the naughty step for them..:)

[Quran 4.171]- "O followers of the Book [Bible], do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak lies against Allah, but speak the truth; the Messiah, Isa [Jesus] son of Marium [Mary] is only an apostle of Allah and His Word ..
Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son"
 






floss

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Mar 26, 2017
Messages
1,982
To any Muslim:

Show me explicitly where did Jesus say: "I Am Not God, Don't Worship Me".
 






Svabhava

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Joined
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Messages
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Why do you believe that God or his ways conforms to human rationale?
Then we would have to take the occams razor and say that God doesn't exist because there is no rational reason to believe in God, according to your description. That it is more likely that no God exists, according to your description.
 






Svabhava

Rookie
Joined
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Messages
38
Regarding the doctrine of the trinity:
1 Thessalonians 5:21 (KJV), “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good”?
“God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth” (John 4:24).
a) Author and theology professor James White writes: “We hang a person’s very salvation upon the acceptance of the doctrine . . . No one dares question the Trinity for fear of being branded a ‘heretic’ . . . We must know, understand, and love the Trinity to be fully and completely Christian” (The Forgotten Trinity, 1998, pp. 14-15, emphasis added throughout unless otherwise noted).
b) Author and theology professor Harold Brown writes: “It has proved impossible for Christians actually to understand the doctrine or to explain it in any comprehensive way. The doctrine of the Trinity . . . surpasses our human ability to understand and that must be respected as a divine mystery” (Heresies: Heresy and Orthodoxy in the History of the Church, 2003, p. 128).
c) Religious writer A.W. Tozer, in his book The Knowledge of the Holy, states that the Trinity is an “incomprehensible mystery” and that attempts to understand it “must remain forever futile.” He admits that churches, “without pretending to understand,” have nevertheless continued to teach this doctrine (1961, pp. 17-18).
d) Cyril Richardson, professor of church history at New York’s Union Theological Seminary, though a dedicated Trinitarian himself, said this in his book The Doctrine of The Trinity: “My conclusion, then, about the doctrine of the Trinity is that it is an artificial construct . . . It produces confusion rather than clarification; and while the problems with which it deals are real ones, the solutions it offers are not illuminating. It has posed for many Christians dark and mysterious statements, which are ultimately meaningless, because it does not sufficiently discriminate in its use of terms” (1958, pp. 148-149).
e) The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia acknowledges that “‘trinity’ is a second-century term found nowhere in the Bible, and the Scriptures present no finished trinitarian statement” (1988, Vol. 4, “Trinity,” p. 914)
f) The HarperCollins Bible Dictionary tells us, “The formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the NT [New Testament]” (Paul Achtemeier, editor, 1996, “Trinity”).
g) The HarperCollins Encyclopedia of Catholicism states: “Today, however, scholars generally agree that there is no doctrine of the Trinity as such in either the OT [Old Testament] or the NT [New Testament] . . . It would go far beyond the intention and thought-forms of the OT to suppose that a late-fourth-century or thirteenth-century Christian doctrine can be found there . . . Likewise, the NT does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity” (Richard McBrien, general editor, 1995, “God,” pp. 564-565).
h) The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, in its article on the Trinity, explains: “Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies . . . It was not until the 4th century that the distinctness of the three and their unity were brought together in a single orthodox doctrine of one essence and three persons” (1985 edition, Micropaedia, Vol. 11, p. 928).
i) Historian and science fiction writer H.G. Wells, in his noted work The Outline of History, points out, “There is no evidence that the apostles of Jesus ever heard of the trinity—at any rate from him” (1920, Vol. 2, p. 499).
j) The Oxford Companion to the Bible states: “Because the Trinity is such an important part of later Christian doctrine, it is striking that the term does not appear in the New Testament. Likewise, the developed concept of three coequal partners in the Godhead found in later creedal formulations cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the canon *” (Bruce Metzger and Michael Coogan, editors, 1993, “Trinity,” p. 782).
k) Shirley Guthrie, Jr., professor of theology at Columbia Theological Seminary, writes: “The Bible does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity. Neither the word ‘trinity’ itself nor such language as ‘one-in-three,’ ‘three-in-one,’ one ‘essence’ (or ‘substance’), and three ‘persons,’ is biblical language. The language of the doctrine is the language of the ancient church taken from classical Greek philosophy” (Christian Doctrine, 1994, pp. 76-77).”
  1. The real origins of this idea many debates, council meetings, and killings by the church and eventually the following took place:
  2. Professor Ryrie, also cited earlier, writes, “In the second half of the fourth century, three theologians from the province of Cappadocia in eastern Asia Minor [today central Turkey] gave definitive shape to the doctrine of the Trinity” (p. 65). They proposed an idea that was a step beyond Athanasius’ view—that God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit
  3. were coequal and together in one being, yet also distinct from one another.
  4. These men—Basil, bishop of Caesarea, his brother Gregory, bishop of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus—were all “trained in Greek philosophy” (Armstrong, p. 113), which no doubt affected their outlook and beliefs (see “Greek Philosophy’s Influence on the Trinity Doctrine,” beginning on page 14).
  5. In the year 381, 44 years after Constantine’s death, Emperor Theodosius the Great convened the Council of Constantinople (today Istanbul, Turkey) to resolve these disputes. Gregory of Nazianzus, recently appointed as archbishop of Constantinople, presided over the council and urged the adoption of his view of the Holy Spirit.
  6. Historian Charles Freeman states: “Whether he dealt with the matter clumsily or whether there was simply no chance of consensus, the ‘Macedonians,’ bishops who refused to accept the full divinity of the Holy Spirit, left the council . . . Typically, Gregory berated the bishops for preferring to have a majority rather than simply accepting ‘the Divine Word’ of the Trinity on his authority” (A.D. 381: Heretics, Pagans and the Dawn of the Monotheistic State, 2008, p. 96).
  7. The teaching of the three Cappadocian theologians “made it possible for the Council of Constantinople (381) to affirm the divinity of the Holy Spirit, which up to that point had nowhere been clearly stated, not even in Scripture” (The HarperCollins Encyclopedia of Catholicism, “God,” p. 568).
  8. With the few sources, one wonders how many more distortions and corruption has been done to the scriptures? We need to take note of the following assertion regarding the evolution of the church:
  9. “For fifty years after St. Paul’s life a curtain hangs over the church, through which we strive vainly to look; and when at last it rises, about 120 A.D. with the writings of the earliest church fathers, we find a church in many aspects very different from that in the days of St. Peter and St. Paul” (The Story of the Christian Church, 1970, p. 33).*
  • "No Apostle would have dreamed of thinking that there are three divine Persons" (Emil Brunner, Christian Doctrine of God, Dogmatics, Vol. 1, p. 226).
  • "Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity" (Encyclopedia of Religion, Vol. 15, p. 54).
  • "The New Testament writers...give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three equal divine persons.... Nowhere do we find any Trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead" (Fortman, The Triune God, pp. xv, xvi, 16).
  • "Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament" (The New Encyclopedia Britannica, 1985, Vol. 11, p. 928).
  • "As far as the New Testament is concerned one does not find in it an actual doctrine of the Trinity" (Bernard Lohse, A Short History of Christian Doctrine, Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1966, p. 38).
  • "The New Testament does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity" (The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, ed. Colin Brown, Zondervan, 1976, Vol. 2, p. 84).
  • "The Bible lacks the express declaration that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence" (Karl Barth, cited in the New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, above).
  • "Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word Trinity appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord" (Arthur Weigall, The Paganism in our Christianity, G.P. Putnam and Sons, 1928, p. 198).
  • "Primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds" (New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Vol. 2, p. 84).
  • "The early Christians, however, did not at first think of applying the TRINITY idea to their own faith. They paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they recognized the...Holy Spirit; but there was no thought of these three being an actual Trinity, coequal and united in One" (Arthur Weigall, The Paganism in Our Christianity, p. 197).
  • "At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian…It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the New Testament and other early Christian writings" (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, ed. James Hastings, 1922, Vol. 12, p. 461).
  • "The formulation ‘One God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.... Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective" (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. 14, p. 299).
  • "Fourth-century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary a deviation from this teaching" (The Encyclopedia Americana, p. 1956, p. 2941).
  • "The New Testament gives no inkling of the teaching of Chalcedon. That council not only reformulated in other language the New Testament data about Jesus’ constitution, but also reconceptualized it in the light of the current Greek philosophical thinking. And that reconceptualization and reformulation go well beyond the New Testament data" (A Christological Catechism, Paulist Press, p. 102).\
Is Jesus God?
Jesus never said "I am God." He always claimed to be the Messiah, the Son of God.
  • "Jesus is not God but God’s representative, and, as such, so completely and totally acts on God’s behalf that he stands in God’s stead before the world…The gospel [of John] clearly states that God and Jesus are not to be understood as identical persons, as in 14:28, ‘the Father is greater than I’" (Jacob Jervell, Jesus in the Gospel of John, 1984, p. 21).
  • "Apparently Paul did not call Jesus God" (Sydney Cave, D.D., Doctrine of the Person of Christ, p. 48).
  • "Paul habitually differentiates Christ from God" (C.J. Cadoux, A Pilgrim’s Further Progress, pp. 40, 42).
  • "Paul never equates Jesus with God" (W.R. Matthews, The Problem of Christ in the 20th Century, Maurice Lectures, 1949, p. 22).
  • "Paul never gives to Christ the name or description of ‘God’" (Dictionary of the Apostolic Church, Vol. 1, p. 194).
  • "When the New Testament writers speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of Him nor do they think of Him as God" (J.M. Creed, The Divinity of Jesus Christ, pp. 122-123).
  • "Karl Rahner [leading Roman Catholic spokesman] points out with so much emphasis that the Son in the New Testament is never described as ‘ho theos’ [the one God]" (A.T. Hanson, Grace and Truth, p. 66).
  • "The clear evidence of John is that Jesus refuses the claim to be God…Jesus vigorously denied the blasphemy of being God or His substitute" (J.A.T. Robinson, Twelve More New Testament Studies, pp. 175, 176).
  • "In his post-resurrection heavenly life, Jesus is portrayed as retaining a personal individuality every bit as distinct and separate from the person of God as was his in his life on earth as the terrestrial Jesus. Alongside God and compared with God, he appears, indeed, as yet another heavenly being in God’s heavenly court, just as the angels were — though as God’s Son, he stands in a different category, and ranks far above them" (Bulletin of the John Rylands Library, 1967-68, Vol. 50, p. 258).
  • "What, however, is said of his life and functions as the celestial Christ neither means nor implies that in divine status he stands on a par with God Himself and is fully God. On the contrary, in the New Testament picture of his heavenly person and ministry we behold a figure both separate from and subordinate to God" (Ibid., pp. 258, 259).
  • "The fact has to be faced that New Testament research over, say, the last thirty or forty years has been leading an increasing number of reputable New Testament scholars to the conclusion that Jesus...certainly never believed himself to be God" (Ibid., p. 251).
  • "When [first-century Christians] assigned Jesus such honorific titles as Christ, Son of Man, Son of God and Lord, these were ways of saying not that he was God but that he did God’s work" (Ibid., p. 250).
  • "The ancients made a wrong use of [John 10:30, "I and the Father are one"] to prove that Christ is...of the same essence with the Father. For Christ does not argue about the unity of substance, but about the agreement that he has with the Father" (John Calvin, Commentary on John).
  • "The Pauline Christ who accomplishes the work of salvation is a personality who is both human and superhuman, not God, but the Son of God. Here the idea, which was to develop later, of the union of the two natures is not present" (Maurice Goguel, Jesus and the Origins of Christianity, Harper, 1960).
  • "Jesus is never identified simpliciter [absolutely] with God, since the early Christians were not likely to confuse Jesus with God the Father" (Howard Marshall, "Jesus as Lord: The Development of the Concept," in Eschatology in the New Testament, Hendrickson, p. 144).
Is the Holy Spirit a Third Person?
It is completely misleading to read into the Bible a third Person, the Holy Spirit. "The spirit of Elijah" (Luke 1:17) is not a different person from Elijah. Nor is "the Spirit of God" a different person from the Father. The Holy Spirit is the operational presence of the mind and influence of God as well as His character. It is God extended to His creation.
  • "Although this spirit is often described in personal terms, it seems quite clear that the sacred writers [of the Hebrew Scriptures] never conceived or presented this spirit as a distinct person" (Edmund Fortman, The Triune God, p. 9).
  • "Nowhere in the Old Testament do we find any clear indication of a Third Person" (The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1912, Vol. 15, p. 49).
  • "The Jews never regarded the spirit as a person; nor is there any solid evidence that any Old Testament writer held this view…The Holy Spirit is usually presented in the Synoptic gospels (Matt., Mark, Luke) and in Acts as a divine force or power" (Edmund Fortman, The Triune God, pp. 6, 15).
  • "The Old Testament clearly does not envisage God’s spirit as a person…God’s spirit is simply God’s power. If it is sometimes represented as being distinct from God, it is because the breath of Yahweh acts exteriorly…The majority of New Testament texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God" (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. 13, pp. 574, 575).
  • "On the whole the New Testament, like the Old, speaks of the spirit as a divine energy or power" (W.E. Addis and Thomas Arnold, A Catholic Dictionary, 1960, p. 810).
  • "The third Person was asserted at a Council of Alexandria in 362...and finally by the Council of Constantinople of 381" (A Catholic Dictionary, p. 812).
  • "[Matt. 28:19] proves only that there are the three subjects named,...but it does not prove, by itself, that all the three belong necessarily to the divine nature, and possess equal divine honor…This text, taken by itself, would not prove decisively either the personality of the three subjects mentioned, or their equality or divinity" (McClintock and Strong, Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological and Ecclesiastical Literature, 1987, Vol. X, p. 552).
Is the Trinity in the Old Testament?
  • "There is in the Old Testament no indication of distinctions in the Godhead; it is an anachronism to find either the doctrine of the Incarnation or that of the Trinity in its pages" ("God," Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, Vol. 6, p. 254).
  • "Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity" (The Encyclopedia of Religion, ed. Mircea Eliade, Macmillan Publishing Company, 1987, Vol. 15, p. 54).
  • "The doctrine of the Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament" (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XIV, p. 306).
  • "The Old Testament tells us nothing explicitly or by necessary implication of a Triune God who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit... There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead... Even to see in the Old Testament suggestions or foreshadowings or ‘veiled signs’ of the Trinity of persons, is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers" (Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God, Baker Book House, 1972, pp. xv, 8, 9).
  • "The Old Testament is strictly monotheistic. God is a single personal being. The idea that a Trinity is to be found there is utterly without foundation." (L.L. Paine, A Critical History of the Evolution of Trinitarianism, Houghton Mifflin, and Co, 1900.)
  • "There is no break between the Old Testament and the New. The monotheistic tradition is continued. Jesus was a Jew, trained by Jewish parents in the Old Testament scriptures. His teaching was Jewish to the core; a new gospel indeed but not a new theology…And he accepted as his own belief the great text of Jewish monotheism: Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one God" (L.L. Paine, A Critical History of the Evolution of Trinitarianism, Houghton Mifflin, and Co., 1900, p. 4).
  • "The Old Testament can scarcely be used as authority for the existence of distinctions within the Godhead. The use of ‘us’ by the divine speaker (Gen. 1:26, 3:32, 11:7) is strange, but it is perhaps due to His consciousness of being surrounded by other beings of a loftier order than men (Isa. 6:8)" (A.B. Davidson, "God," Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, Vol. II, p. 205).
  • "From Philo onward, Jewish commentators have generally held that the plural [Gen. 1:26, ‘Let us make man....’] is used because God is addressing his heavenly court, i.e., the angels (cf. Isa. 6:8). [This is also the explanation given by the NIV Study Bible] From the Epistle of Barnabas and Justin Martyr, who saw the plural as a reference to Christ, Christians have traditionally seen this verse as foreshadowing the Trinity. It is now universally admitted that this was not what the plural meant to the original author" (Gordon Wenham, Word Commentary on Genesis, p. 27).
2. Believers being able to handle snakes and drink deadly poison The New Testament manuscripts for the Gospel of Mark have multiple endings. The shortest ending is found in the oldest complete copies of the New Testament, known as the Vaticanus (350 CE) and Sinaiticus (360 CE), which stop at verse 16:8. Most of the later manuscripts contain some additional verses, Mark 16:9-20, which are not always the same and seem to have been added to the Gospel at later points in time. It is these additional verses that mention that believing Christians will be able to survive handling snakes and drinking deadly poison: And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name, they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.” [Mark 16:17-18]It’s because of these verses that there are churches in America that handle venomous snakes as a test of faith. Sadly, many Christians have died doing such acts.Here is the footnote regarding the ending of Mark’s Gospel from the New International Version of the Bible:The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20. Nowhere else in the New Testament does it say that believers will be able to survive handling snakes and drinking deadly poison.
3. The story of the adulteressJohn 8:2-11 is the story of a woman that is about to be stoned on the accusation of adultery. In these verses, Jesus, when questioned about her punishment, utters the famous words “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”. This whole story is another later addition as the earliest New Testament manuscripts do not contain it. In fact, the story does not even exist in any manuscripts before the 5th century, and the vast majority of those prior to the 8th century lack the story. Here is a footnote regarding this verse from the New International Version of the Bible: The earliest manuscripts and many other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53—8:11. A few manuscripts include these verses, wholly or in part, after John 7:36, John 21:25, Luke 21:38 or Luke 24:53. Without these verses, we can find no other examples of Jesus not following the Old Testament laws dealing with crime and punishment.
4. Jesus and omniscience So far we have looked at examples where the scribes have added words to the New Testament. In this example, we look at a case where words have been removed. Here is Matthew 24:36 as read in the New International Version of the Bible: But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. [Matthew 24:36]Now, contrast this with the reading in the King James Version which is missing the words “nor the Son”:
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. [Matthew 24:36]Note that in the Greek manuscripts that the KJV are based upon, the words “nor the son” have been omitted. Here is a footnote regarding this verse from the New International Version of the Bible:
Some manuscripts do not have nor the Son. The NIV contains the correct reading. The words “nor the son” should be included because it is represented by the best and earliest manuscript (Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus) and it is also present in Mark 13:32. The evidence suggests that the omission in the later manuscripts was a theologically motivated change by scribes in order to preserve Jesus’ omniscience because they didn’t like the idea that Jesus is inferior to God in knowledge.
 






Svabhava

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On the contrary, in Jesus' own words according to the NT:

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ is no commandment greater than these.”
“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
- Mark 12:28-34
 






Lyfe

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Then we would have to take the occams razor and say that God doesn't exist because there is no rational reason to believe in God, according to your description. That it is more likely that no God exists, according to your description.
Of course there is rational reason to believe in a creator.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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Sorry for the short reply here @DesertRose ...

In the gospels, Jesus demonstrates who He is but does not claim it.

There is a lot in this verse...

John 5:43 - King James Version

43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Jesus demonstrated who He was, but did not push Himself forward.

The Humbled and Exalted Christ
5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

We have free will and God honours that. To imagine that Jesus would come to earth, show off some miracles, declare that He was God and demand worship is to misunderstand the heart of God.

One day, another will come, declare himself as God and demand worship in the “Holy Place”. This person will be neither Christ of God.

 






Svabhava

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Of course there is rational reason to believe in a creator.
You claimed that God doesn't conform to human rationale, if God doesn't then there is no rational and logical reason to believe in God.
Belief itself is a human thing and belief in God is still a human thing, beliefs themselves do not necessarily have to be rational or logical, but they remain illogical and irrational if they do not stand up to basic logical and rational scrutiny and if they contradict basic facts.

Aside from this, your statement here of there being a rational reason to believe in a creator in no way equates to your belief in a Trinitarian deity. Belief that there is a creator is just that and nothing more. Belief in the Trinitarian deity is a completely different thing, a product of Catholic history between the third and seventh centuries. It remains a central dogma for Catholics and Protestants of course. But in fact is by far not a belief held by any of the early Christians and proto-Christians in the first three centuries. And it is objectively absent from the New Testament.
 






Svabhava

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We have free will and God honours that. To imagine that {........} , show off some miracles, declare that He was God and demand worship is to misunderstand the heart of God.
Maybe you missed the memo given at Mount Sinai?


20 And God spoke all these words:
2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”
18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die.”
20 Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning.”
21 The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was.
Idols and Altars
22 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites this: ‘You have seen for yourselves that I have spoken to you from heaven: 23 Do not make any gods to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods of silver or gods of gold.
24 “‘Make an altar of earth for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, your sheep and goats and your cattle. Wherever I cause my name to be honored, I will come to you and bless you. 25 If you make an altar of stones for me, do not build it with dressed stones, for you will defile it if you use a tool on it. 26 And do not go up to my altar on steps, or your private parts may be exposed.’
 






Svabhava

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The basic Christian view with Jesus' sacrifice is as follows.

God gives the Law to Moses, but the Law is evil (etc, Re-Paul).
The Law is supposed to be a negative and impossible thing that nobody can follow (even though this is just a claim of Paul and nothing more).
That in that Law people sacrificed animals (only as offerings but Christians misconstrue this to be more).

Then we come to the crux of their worldview, as follows:

God had people using animals for offerings (as ancient people all did, every ancient culture scarified animals to their deities, there is nothing controversial or out of place about this) and then God decided to incarnate into the body of a human to go on a suicide mission so that you didn't have to use animals for offerings anymore but still did everything else to repent and seek forgiveness from God?

Because the actual method and mode in which a believer functions still has not changed since Jesus died, all that has been done is that Christians have moved the goalposts from repentance (alongside sacrificing animals) to repentance and believing in Jesus as deity.
It's in every way counterintuitive and truly laughable.

If one doesn't believe in Jesus, then one goes to hell. There is nothing superior about the Christian sacrifice-for-sin narrative at all.
 






floss

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I'm curious, what you think Luke 23:34 means then?
“Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:34‬ ‭KJV

Sorry but I cannot find anything in this verse explicitly say that "Jesus is not God, don't worship Him". Which was my point, that muslims always ask for an explicit statement directly from the mouth of Jesus that say "I am God, Worship Me", in those exact wording.

I believe Jesus's mission was to point mankind to the Father God, thus He always submit the will of the Father because He didn't come to do his will but the Father's will. Luke 23:34 just show how much God love his creation, even on the brinks of death, instead of trying to save Himself or curse those who were about to kill him, He asked for their forgiveness. He could've forgive them but His mission wasn't to glorify himself (that's the job of the Holy Spirit). If your reason for Jesus was not God because he ask God the Father to forgive them instead, then you haven't fully understand Jesus's character and humbleness.
 






Tidal

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..belief in God is still a human thing, beliefs themselves do not necessarily have to be rational or logical, but they remain illogical and irrational if they do not stand up to basic logical and rational scrutiny and if they contradict basic facts.

Right, and all the evidence points to Jesus being something special, he was seen strutting his miracle stuff for 3 long years in front of everybody, that's a lot of eyewitnesses, heck he was almost as big as Elvis and the similarities are uncanny..:)-
"And the people all tried to touch Jesus, because power was coming from him" (Luke 6:19)

 






Svabhava

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Show me explicitly where did Jesus say: "I Am Not God, Don't Worship Me".
There are plenty of places, all you need to do is read.


“Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

- John 4:21-24

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ is no commandment greater than these.”
“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
- Mark 12:28-34

How about the Pater Noster - where Jesus teaches people to pray:

“This, then, is how you should pray:
“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name
,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.’

For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.


- Matthew 6:9-15

How about from John 14:

The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. (10)

"I will ask the father" (16)

Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
.......23-25)

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me. (28-31)


It's everywhere throughout all the four NT gospels, Jesus never speaks of himself as God anywhere.
 






floss

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There are plenty of places, all you need to do is read.


“Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

- John 4:21-24
Lets back up a bit since you're quoting the GOSPEL OF JOHN. What's your understand of Chapter 1?

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me; for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-18‬ ‭Kjv
 






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“Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:34‬ ‭KJV

Sorry but I cannot find anything in this verse explicitly say that "Jesus is not God, don't worship Him". Which was my point, that muslims always ask for an explicit statement directly from the mouth of Jesus that say "I am God, Worship Me", in those exact wording.

I believe Jesus's mission was to point mankind to the Father God, thus He always submit the will of the Father because He didn't come to do his will but the Father's will. Luke 23:34 just show how much God love his creation, even on the brinks of death, instead of trying to save Himself or curse those who were about to kill him, He asked for their forgiveness. He could've forgive them but His mission wasn't to glorify himself (that's the job of the Holy Spirit). If your reason for Jesus was not God because he ask God the Father to forgive them instead, then you haven't fully understand Jesus's character and humbleness.
I appreciate the response, but it doesn't make much cognitive sense. You haven't really answered the question and told me what Jesus meant when he said "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do", as you've only justified your position. It's basically a non sequitur stating that Jesus said he DIDN'T say He's NOT God, therefore, He MUST be God. It's reminiscent of a stalker claiming because their victim smiled at them, they MUST like/love them.
 






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@Red Sky at Morning

One Trancendent Essence, Immanent on the Macrocosmic level..and the Microcosmic level

Bismillah IrRahman IrRaheem

no, Jesus isnt God, nor did he claim to be....but God was Immanent THROUGH him.
Jesus said "if your eye is single your whole body shall be full of light".
Paul said "in the minds of the pure, all things are pure"


how come it's so easy for muslims to get this but not christians?
 






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