What is your personal belief system?

Todd

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I appreciate the author's insights with the statement that John wrote 1:1 with calling Jesus the "logos" which is relatable for the Torah followers, since they called the Torah "the way."

However, my Kjv states in John 1:1, In the beginning was the Word [logos] and the Word was with God and the Word was God....I believe it. I believe Jesus Christ is God incarnate.
I believe Jesus is the perfect human representation of who God is. Man is made in the image of God, but that image was corrupted in the Garden of Eden. Jesus came to restore the perfect image of God as presented in a human being. The issue of whether Jesus is God has become irrelevant to me. Peter said God made Jesus Lord and Christ and that is what is essential to me. I have found no absolute pre-requisite that Jesus had to be God to become Lord and Christ. If I find out in the ages to come that Jesus really was God, it's not a problem, but I don't see the Bible demanding belief that Jesus was God as a pre-requisite for receiving salvation. Accepting him as the Messiah, Savior and Lord is what the Bible says.
 

Todd

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The Bible is predominantly a Jewish book. The only books that are directly for Christians during the church age are Romans through Philemon, and some of Acts. The rest are MAINLY for believers of different dispensations, and mostly for Jews.

The dispensation we are currently enjoying -- salvation by grace through faith alone -- will end at the Rapture of the church. After that, works will again be necessary for salvation. During the Tribulation, God will be dealing with Israel again as a nation, which is why James specifically addresses the twelve tribes. If he was addressing the church, his greeting makes no sense, since it excludes any believers who are not Jewish.
James was the pastor of the church in Jerusalem, consisting mainly of believing Hebrews. It makes much more sense that he was writing to Hebrew believers that had fled Jerusalem, then to think he was writing to some future people that didn't even exist at the time.

Dispensationalism is a man made theology, conjured up to support an agenda. I used to think it was the truth, so I sort of understand where you are coming from. I just don't see it that way anymore.
 

Lady

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I believe Jesus is the perfect human representation of who God is. Man is made in the image of God, but that image was corrupted in the Garden of Eden. Jesus came to restore the perfect image of God as presented in a human being. The issue of whether Jesus is God has become irrelevant to me. Peter said God made Jesus Lord and Christ and that is what is essential to me. I have found no absolute pre-requisite that Jesus had to be God to become Lord and Christ. If I find out in the ages to come that Jesus really was God, it's not a problem, but I don't see the Bible demanding belief that Jesus was God as a pre-requisite for receiving salvation. Accepting him as the Messiah, Savior and Lord is what the Bible says.
I know that you, Todd, have been on your journey and have come to your conclusions on this-we do not need to rehash the old issue once more I don't think.
However, I just want to add a link for a collection of verses that support my (and so many others) belief that Jesus Christ is God Almighty. I feel as though I would be remiss in not providing scriptural evidence for this claim.
 

Thunderian

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You can believe whatever you want to, Todd. Since you reject Paul's writings you handcuff a lot of Christian discussion, so there's not much point in arguing with you, is there?
 

Thunderian

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Fair enough @Thunderian I was just wondering if there was something scriptural to support it being the tribulation.
It boils down to what James is saying being in conflict with what Paul is saying. You either reject Paul's writings, as Todd has, or you accept that, just as believers before Christ's death and resurrection were saved under a different mechanism than during the Church age (they had to be, since there was no blood yet shed for them), so too are believers saved differently when the Church is complete. It's a great study to get into, and a rightly divided Bible make much more sense.
 

Todd

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You can believe whatever you want to, Todd. Since you reject Paul's writings you handcuff a lot of Christian discussion, so there's not much point in arguing with you, is there?
Agree...no point in arguing.
 

DisenfranchisedDespot

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It boils down to what James is saying being in conflict with what Paul is saying. You either reject Paul's writings, as Todd has, or you accept that, just as believers before Christ's death and resurrection were saved under a different mechanism than during the Church age (they had to be, since there was no blood yet shed for them), so too are believers saved differently when the Church is complete. It's a great study to get into, and a rightly divided Bible make much more sense.
That is a fair assessment considering God would reinstate the time of Moses and Elijah. I'll have to make a point of re reading the book as the first time I read it was at Todd's request to see if I could find contradiction with Paul.

I had more or less placed the book as being applicable now and even in the tribulation. If you happen to have a study on it I wouldn't mind perusing it as the book is interesting.
 

Thunderian

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That is a fair assessment considering God would reinstate the time of Moses and Elijah.
Exactly. Moses represents the law, and Elijah the prophets. Many end time passages have references to Elijah.

I'll have to make a point of re reading the book as the first time I read it was at Todd's request to see if I could find contradiction with Paul.
It's in contradiction with Paul because Paul was writing for the Church, and James is writing for Tribulation Jews. Not to say we can't take things from it, but it must be divided correctly.

Rejecting Paul because of this contradiction, thought, makes about as much sense as rejecting Psalms because David wrote, Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit, which is direct conflict with what Jesus said, And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So what do we do? According to those who reject the idea of dispensationalism as something that's been conjured up to support an agenda, you have to reject one of the guys who made these statements, so it's either David, the man after God's heart, or Jesus, the way, the truth and the life. Quite the dilemma.

Or, we can understand that God's message and relationship with mankind in general and with the Jews in particular is more complex than for God so loved the world. Reading the Bible without acknowledging dispensations is like saying that every subject you take in school has the same application across the board -- like you can use algebra to identify the object of a sentence, or the periodic table of the elements can be played on a tuba in band practice.

The point is that just because something is in the Bible doesn't mean it has the same meaning and application as everything else.

I had more or less placed the book as being applicable now and even in the tribulation. If you happen to have a study on it I wouldn't mind perusing it as the book is interesting.
Everything in the Bible is useful, but it has to be applied correctly, or we would still be sacrificing animals and putting people to death for not observing the Sabbath, wouldn't we?

I don't have a study to recommend for James, but I would certainly urge you to read it as if it's written to Jews in the Tribulation. I would call your attention to passages that speak of the rich and the poor (1:9-11, 2:5-7, 5:1-6) and remember that during the Tribulation, no one can buy or sell without the mark, and most believers will be destitute. There will most likely be a lot of unsaved poor, but not many who are both saved and rich. Read James 5:1-6 especially:

1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.
5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

Now I suppose one could argue that this has some application to the persecution of the early church, but the references to the last days and the judgments that are coming upon the rich, not to mention the direct reference to Elijah stopping the rain for three and a half years (prophetically very significant) later in the same chapter, should lead us to look at this book as something more than just a letter from James to the early church. It makes much more sense when read as an encouragement and exhortation to the brethren of James, the believing Jews who are under terrible persecution during the time of Jacob's trouble.
 

DisenfranchisedDespot

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Exactly. Moses represents the law, and Elijah the prophets. Many end time passages have references to Elijah.



It's in contradiction with Paul because Paul was writing for the Church, and James is writing for Tribulation Jews. Not to say we can't take things from it, but it must be divided correctly.

Rejecting Paul because of this contradiction, thought, makes about as much sense as rejecting Psalms because David wrote, Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit, which is direct conflict with what Jesus said, And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So what do we do? According to those who reject the idea of dispensationalism as something that's been conjured up to support an agenda, you have to reject one of the guys who made these statements, so it's either David, the man after God's heart, or Jesus, the way, the truth and the life. Quite the dilemma.

Or, we can understand that God's message and relationship with mankind in general and with the Jews in particular is more complex than for God so loved the world. Reading the Bible without acknowledging dispensations is like saying that every subject you take in school has the same application across the board -- like you can use algebra to identify the object of a sentence, or the periodic table of the elements can be played on a tuba in band practice.

The point is that just because something is in the Bible doesn't mean it has the same meaning and application as everything else.



Everything in the Bible is useful, but it has to be applied correctly, or we would still be sacrificing animals and putting people to death for not observing the Sabbath, wouldn't we?

I don't have a study to recommend for James, but I would certainly urge you to read it as if it's written to Jews in the Tribulation. I would call your attention to passages that speak of the rich and the poor (1:9-11, 2:5-7, 5:1-6) and remember that during the Tribulation, no one can buy or sell without the mark, and most believers will be destitute. There will most likely be a lot of unsaved poor, but not many who are both saved and rich. Read James 5:1-6 especially:

1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.
5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

Now I suppose one could argue that this has some application to the persecution of the early church, but the references to the last days and the judgments that are coming upon the rich, not to mention the direct reference to Elijah stopping the rain for three and a half years (prophetically very significant) later in the same chapter, should lead us to look at this book as something more than just a letter from James to the early church. It makes much more sense when read as an encouragement and exhortation to the brethren of James, the believing Jews who are under terrible persecution during the time of Jacob's trouble.
Don't get me wrong, my questions and comments weren't contentious in nature but curious. I'm quite find of Dispensationalism and without it struggled to understand the bible.

With your comments it gives explanation as to why James mentions the royal law. I'll read it with your suggestions in mind.
 

Thunderian

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Sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression I thought you were being contentious. I think I thought I was replying to Todd there a for a little bit. ;)

Yes, the Bible is a struggle without being able to read it properly, and it's not like dividing it according to dispensations is some great mystery, either. Once you understand and are able to place passages properly, it unlocks so much more understanding. At least, that's the way it was for me.
 

DisenfranchisedDespot

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Sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression I thought you were being contentious. I think I thought I was replying to Todd there a for a little bit. ;)

Yes, the Bible is a struggle without being able to read it properly, and it's not like dividing it according to dispensations is some great mystery, either. Once you understand and are able to place passages properly, it unlocks so much more understanding. At least, that's the way it was for me.
I think our line of thought is quite similar in this regard.
 

DeathlyHallows

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I was raised Catholic, but have spent my life studying religion. I believe in something, and you can call it God, Universe, the Force, I don't care what. I am pretty Buddhist as well. I know the Bible, but it was written by men, and I think that putting all the belief and faith in that...I dunno makes me uncomfortable. I have known Christians who were awful human beings, and I have known those with little faith who were amazing human beings. There is a lot of corruption in all areas of religion, and as a history teacher, I know the history of it too. I think it is dumb to argue, because you can't change anyone's beliefs. Besides, how does it affect you if I believe something different? I have dear friends of all faiths, and there is value in all of them. Thanks for asking the question.
 

floss

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I know the Bible, but it was written by men, and I think that putting all the belief and faith in that...I dunno makes me uncomfortable.
I know this is gonna hard to believe but you can't understand the hidden meanings of the Bible unless you're born again Christian with the Spirit of God dwelled in you. With the Spirit of God, things are going to start clicking and connecting, then you will receive powerful revelation of the verses that felt like its coming alive.
Even though the Bible was written by men but it is definitely God's inspired words. And God has made it simple to receive his Spirit but many will choose not to.
 

Kung Fu

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I know this is gonna hard to believe but you can't understand the hidden meanings of the Bible unless you're born again Christian with the Spirit of God dwelled in you. With the Spirit of God, things are going to start clicking and connecting, then you will receive powerful revelation of the verses that felt like its coming alive.
Even though the Bible was written by men but it is definitely God's inspired words. And God has made it simple to receive his Spirit but many will choose not to.
 

DisenfranchisedDespot

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I know this is gonna hard to believe but you can't understand the hidden meanings of the Bible unless you're born again Christian with the Spirit of God dwelled in you. With the Spirit of God, things are going to start clicking and connecting, then you will receive powerful revelation of the verses that felt like its coming alive.
Even though the Bible was written by men but it is definitely God's inspired words. And God has made it simple to receive his Spirit but many will choose not to.
What verses do you have to support that idea?
 

floss

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What verses do you have to support that idea?
Maybe he's thinking of John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I said.
before I read the Words of God, I always pray that the Holy Spirit will guide me into the true meaning of God's word. Unlike before, the hidden meaning or personal revelation didn't come to me. It was rather confusing, but now God is starting to slowly reveal to me what his Words mean. Here's another verses to support this:

13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.

16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;
17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

I love this blessing of truly hearing and seeing :)
 

DeathlyHallows

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I know this is gonna hard to believe but you can't understand the hidden meanings of the Bible unless you're born again Christian with the Spirit of God dwelled in you. With the Spirit of God, things are going to start clicking and connecting, then you will receive powerful revelation of the verses that felt like its coming alive.
Even though the Bible was written by men but it is definitely God's inspired words. And God has made it simple to receive his Spirit but many will choose not to.
Well believe it or not I've been a born again Christian most of my life, but found it lacking. Don't judge me...I didn't judge you. The post was about MY beliefs. Don't put your Christ on me. Kung Fu...yes. I'm also 42 years old...not a child. I also have a couple of degrees, lots of life experience, and have done the whole born again thing.
 
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