What Is Belief?

Aero

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Simple question. I want to know what belief is, and why people think that way.

The literal definition doesn't leave much room for confusion. Nevertheless I think there's a chance to teach some kind of lesson. Or at least have a normal conversation. When I thought of belief, my wonder matched the definition. Acceptance. Confidence.

If one truly believes and accepts something. Than my next question is. Where do the defense mechanisms related to belief come from?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I think there are two definitions of "faith" or "belief" circulating. One from the Bible (and related views) and another from Existentialism...

"A leap of faith, in its most commonly used meaning, is the act of believing in or accepting something outside the boundaries of reason. In the case of religious belief, it is to believe in a subjective truth about the meaning of life, to believe in something that cannot be objectively confirmed in this world."

Hebrews 11 sets out a subtly different vision...

"1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

In this second example, whilst the thing hoped for may be beyond the reach of our faculties, there is no suggestion that this unreachable knowledge is subjective.

It is on the question of subjectivity that the debate on belief hinges imo.

So can belief be rational, or are we all locked into the subjectivity of individual, sometimes contradictory "truths" of an existential leap of faith?
 

Aero

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I think that life is contradictory and rationality isn't a good measurement of belief.

Jung said every person is insane. That we are constantly forming some whole version of ourselves. Therefore the subjective truth of others should be of no consequence. It is but a fragment of the psyche. Every conscious human encompasses all of the positive and negative qualities available.

A personal leap of faith isn't what we see a lot of people doing. We see a lot of projection of negative qualities. That makes instinctual assumptions and turns a subjective thing objective. The belief takes some form through projection. And those forms tend not to really emulate the actual belief system. The forms emulate conscious ego and the unconscious archetypes. The "hero" always has to find a battle to fight. Whether there is an actual enemy or not.
 

Vytas

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Where do the defense mechanisms related to belief come from?
For me it's not defence mechanism, but simply frustration, by being unable to make other people see/understand what i see/understand i get frustrated a lot...From may faith viewpoint it's ok to feel that way, but as a flawed person I am, i tend to invest too much emotionally, which leads to defence mechanism taking over..And discussion become unproductive...And i know im not alone i've seen it happening over and over again... Hundreds of times in this forum too...So i usually stay away from those threads...temptation is here though :)
 

Aero

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For me it's not defence mechanism, but simply frustration, by being unable to make other people see/understand what i see/understand i get frustrated a lot...From may faith viewpoint it's ok to feel that way, but as a flawed person I am, i tend to invest too much emotionally, which leads to defence mechanism taking over..And discussion become unproductive...And i know im not alone i've seen it happening over and over again... Hundreds of times in this forum too...So i usually stay away from those threads...temptation is here though :)
Oh I get it trust me. I hope you don't feel lectured to. I'm that guy with too much emotional investment, and sometimes into all the wrong things. I've done that so much I can't help but think of how I wasted my time.That's why I tend to scoff when people talk to me about repentance. I've repented plenty of times and that doesn't make me a holy man. And it doesn't make me naive not seeing the grand wisdom of the new testament.

I can only suggest not worrying about what you can't control. And not being forceful for the sake of it. Because what I've learned about being forceful is this. When the debate starts, most of the force is gone. So we serve our respective causes better by not debating. Just believing and walking that path.
 

JoChris

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Oh I get it trust me. I hope you don't feel lectured to. I'm that guy with too much emotional investment, and sometimes into all the wrong things. I've done that so much I can't help but think of how I wasted my time.That's why I tend to scoff when people talk to me about repentance. I've repented plenty of times and that doesn't make me a holy man. And it doesn't make me naive not seeing the grand wisdom of the new testament.

I can only suggest not worrying about what you can't control. And not being forceful for the sake of it. Because what I've learned about being forceful is this. When the debate starts, most of the force is gone. So we serve our respective causes better by not debating. Just believing and walking that path.
Repenting to WHOM? An abstract principle or the Living God?

Faith makes all the difference. Personal regret and efforts to change behaviours/ decisions is not true repentance.

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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@Aero

Just picking up on something you mentioned earlier about the NT being written long after the events. I know this has been a popular perspective in higher criticism and so much so as it has become an assumption for many.

FYI some recent findings I came across put a different light on that view.

"In 1955 there were discovered several papyrus fragments in Qumran Cave 7. The unusual – and unexpected – feature of Cave 7 was that all of its fragments were in Greek, as opposed to the exclusively Hebrew and Aramaic scrolls that had been found in the other caves. Apart from two of the fragments which were from the Greek version of the Old Testament (Exodus and the apocryphal Letter of Jeremiah), the rest of the fragments from Cave 7 were all catalogued as unidentified, and were considered indeed to be unidentifiable. That’s how things remained until 1972, when the papyrologist, Dr José O’Callaghan, thought that he would try to identify them. They were housed at the Rockefeller Museum in Jerusalem, and in April 1972 he was able to do a hands-on examination of each of them and take a series of infra-red and other photographs. What he discovered concerning them was to shock the academic world – the fragments belonged to books of the New Testament.
Why that should have shocked the world of academe was this. The cave and its fragments were sealed up in the year AD 68 when the Roman 10th Legion overran the area. This means that these New Testament books had been written out before that year, and were indeed copied out of earlier exemplars. It means that the New Testament had been written out and was in circulation well inside the Eyewitness Period of AD 30-70. In other words, it undermines everything - and I mean everything! - that the Bible critics have been saying for the past couple of hundred years or so. This is evidence which tells us that our New Testament is no collection of fables written out so late that they are worthless, but a thoroughly authentic eyewitness account of the Man Christ Jesus, the Son of God. It is time for the fragments from Qumran Cave 7 to speak for themselves once again."


Intro to:

Bill Cooper
The Authenticity of the New Testament Fragments of Qumran
 

Red Sky at Morning

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On the subject of belief, taking on the existential definition again as I think this is the common view most people have swallowed as the proper definition...

"A leap of faith, in its most commonly used meaning, is the act of believing in or accepting something outside the boundaries of reason. In the case of religious belief, it is to believe in a subjective truth about the meaning of life, to believe in something that cannot be objectively confirmed in this world."

It is the word "reason" that I particularly noticed here. You could substitute "rationality" here, thus a "rationalist" would be someone who makes no leap of faith, but remains firmly planted in reality.

But is it that simple? Are rationalists the most realistic? An example struck me this morning and I wondered if it resonated with anyone? Quantum physics is irrational but correct.

"Anyone who isn't shocked by quantum physics has not understood it".
Niels Bohr


"Quantum physics not only explains how matter behaves at the subatomic level, but is also used to create many devices in our everyday lives, from lasers and transistors to GPS and mobile phones. The next wave of innovation could lead to unbreakable encryption and computers that are up to one million times faster."

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/economy/20160407STO21711/quantum-technologies-from-mobile-phones-to-supercomputers

My point is that whilst quantum physics is beyond direct examination, belief that it exists has enabled technological advancements in the real world based on the belief in something beyond our reach. What is rational and what is true appear to be different in this case, but only because the true nature of matter runs counter to our expectations.

I think this related scientific example has a significant bearing on the wider question of how we define belief or faith.
 
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DesertRose

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Thanks Aero for this discussion:) Tbh I would have to ask you to explain the defensiveness part a bit more though.
In our worldview people can be under the category of Islam and be Muslims and not have faith or Eman.
Hence outwardly the profess and practice however inwardly they may not have belief. Belief in Islam is called Iman and believers have inward conviction and inward actions of the heart that only God knows or is a witness of.
(There is also a higher level of Islam after belief and this is called ihsan and these are believers who have perfected both their inward and outward deeds but that discussion is outside this one.)

We can not judge a person's faith all we can see is his Islam in the sense of his outward actions.

"The second degree is eemaan (faith), which in Arabic means belief which is committed to submission. In Islamic terminology its meaning varies according to usage and it may mean one of two things:

(i) When the word is used on its own and is not accompanied by the word Islam, it refers to the religion as a whole, as in the verses where Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Allaah is the Wali (Protector or Guardian) of those who believe. He brings them out from darkness into light”

[al-Baqarah 2:257]

“and put your trust in Allaah if you are believers indeed”

[al-Maa’idah 5:23]

And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No one will enter Paradise except the believers.” Narrated by Muslim, 114.

Hence the salaf (means pious predessors) were unanimously agreed that eemaan means “affirming in the heart – which includes actions of the heart – and saying with the tongue and acting with one’s physical faculties. It increases by doing acts of obedience and decreases by committing sin.”

Hence Allaah limited the word eemaan to those who adhere to His religion in full, inwardly and outwardly, when He said (interpretation of the meaning):

“The believers are only those who, when Allaah is mentioned, feel a fear (in the sense of God consciousness) in their hearts and when His Verses (this Qur’aan) are recited unto them, they (i.e. the Verses) increase their Faith; and they put their trust in their Lord (Alone);

3. Who perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat‑as‑ Salaah) and spend out of that We have provided them.

4. It is they who are the believers in truth. For them are grades of dignity with their Lord, and forgiveness and a generous provision (Paradise)” [al-Anfaal 8:2-4]
Source: https://islamqa.info/en/49023

Here is an interesting video on this:
 
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Aero

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@Aero

Just picking up on something you mentioned earlier about the NT being written long after the events. I know this has been a popular perspective in higher criticism and so much so as it has become an assumption for many.

FYI some recent findings I came across put a different light on that view.

"In 1955 there were discovered several papyrus fragments in Qumran Cave 7. The unusual – and unexpected – feature of Cave 7 was that all of its fragments were in Greek, as opposed to the exclusively Hebrew and Aramaic scrolls that had been found in the other caves. Apart from two of the fragments which were from the Greek version of the Old Testament (Exodus and the apocryphal Letter of Jeremiah), the rest of the fragments from Cave 7 were all catalogued as unidentified, and were considered indeed to be unidentifiable. That’s how things remained until 1972, when the papyrologist, Dr José O’Callaghan, thought that he would try to identify them. They were housed at the Rockefeller Museum in Jerusalem, and in April 1972 he was able to do a hands-on examination of each of them and take a series of infra-red and other photographs. What he discovered concerning them was to shock the academic world – the fragments belonged to books of the New Testament.
Why that should have shocked the world of academe was this. The cave and its fragments were sealed up in the year AD 68 when the Roman 10th Legion overran the area. This means that these New Testament books had been written out before that year, and were indeed copied out of earlier exemplars. It means that the New Testament had been written out and was in circulation well inside the Eyewitness Period of AD 30-70. In other words, it undermines everything - and I mean everything! - that the Bible critics have been saying for the past couple of hundred years or so. This is evidence which tells us that our New Testament is no collection of fables written out so late that they are worthless, but a thoroughly authentic eyewitness account of the Man Christ Jesus, the Son of God. It is time for the fragments from Qumran Cave 7 to speak for themselves once again."


Intro to:

Bill Cooper
The Authenticity of the New Testament Fragments of Qumran
I think that's interesting. Ill look into that more later.

I don't really doubt the authenticity of the gospels. Or the age. My problem is the huge gap between when it was written and when it was compiled.

Jesus nor the apostles were involved in the compiling of the bible. So I'm sure a lot of the gospels are close to the original. But so much could of been added and distorted.
 

Aero

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Repenting to WHOM? An abstract principle or the Living God?

Faith makes all the difference. Personal regret and efforts to change behaviours/ decisions is not true repentance.

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Oh wow. There's a litmus test for repenting?

I think you Christians are really reaching on the issue of repentence. First I was told its difficult. Now I'm told I didn't do it right?

According to the scripture. My repentance was perfectly fine. Now it might not meet peoples interpretations but it follows the scripture just fine.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I think that's interesting. Ill look into that more later.

I don't really doubt the authenticity of the gospels. Or the age. My problem is the huge gap between when it was written and when it was compiled.

Jesus nor the apostles were involved in the compiling of the bible. So I'm sure a lot of the gospels are close to the original. But so much could of been added and distorted.
Hi Aero,

There was certainly a time when I was younger when I had heard that view, and put it to the back of my mind as I didn't want to engage with anything that might undermine my faith (just being honest here).

Of course individual letters were circulated prior to their compilation into what we recognise as the Bible. Researching into it more deeply, some if the things I discovered actually deepened and confirmed my faith.

Earlier this year I read The Authenticity of New Testament Part 1 (The Gospels) by Bill Cooper

"The critics say they were written after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, beyond the lifetime of eyewitnesses, and the author addresses this in the opening chapters. He points out that parts of six New Testament books including Mark were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, sealed in caves before the place was overrun by the Romans in AD 68. None of the NT books contains any reference to the fall of Jerusalem, so they evidently predate that event. The name of the town of Paneas was changed in AD 14 to Caesarea Philippi, but was named Neronias in AD 61. Subsequently it reverted to Paneas (today spelt Banias). Since both Matthew and Mark call it Caesarea Philippi, both must have written their Gospels before AD 61, well within the eyewitness period. Later chapters are devoted to interesting details confirming the authenticity of the four individual Gospels. A couple of chapters are concerned with the mathematical structure of passages such as the last twelve verses of Mark that are omitted from many modern versions of the English Bible. Related to this are facts regarding the Codices Sinaiticus, Alexandrinus and Vaticanus, and the Greek version of Scripture published by Westcott and Hort."

https://www.authenticity.billcooper.org.uk/newtestament/
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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Oh wow. There's a litmus test for repenting?

I think you Christians are really reaching on the issue of repentence. First I was told its difficult. Now I'm told I didn't do it right?

According to the scripture. My repentance was perfectly fine. Now it might not meet peoples interpretations but it follows the scripture just fine.
It's not that complicated, @Aero ;-)

"Two requisites of repentance included in sub are "to turn from evil, and to turn to the good." Most critical theologically is the idea of returning to God, or turning away from evil."

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/repentance/

That's it. I like what Ray Winstone says about repentance - in the end, it's up to you ;-)

 

DesertRose

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I liked this video to explain the correlation between belief in God, the accountability of the hay of judgement and good deeds
.
 

elsbet

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Oh wow. There's a litmus test for repenting?

I think you Christians are really reaching on the issue of repentence. First I was told its difficult. Now I'm told I didn't do it right?

According to the scripture. My repentance was perfectly fine. Now it might not meet peoples interpretations but it follows the scripture just fine.
No, no-- you are correct. It is simple. :)

From your answer, repenting to God seems to be where you are. @Red Sky at Morning said it well.

I would like to add, since changing behavior has always been a struggle for me and the source of much unnecessary self-loathing, Phil. 2:13

"...for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure."
 

Aero

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Thanks Aero for this discussion:) Tbh I would have to ask you to explain the defensiveness part a bit more though.
In our worldview people can be under the category of Islam and be Muslims and not have faith or Eman.
Hence outwardly the profess and practice however inwardly they may not have belief. Belief in Islam is called Iman and believers have inward conviction and inward actions of the heart that only God knows or is a witness of.
(There is also a higher level of Islam after belief and this is called ihsan and these are believers who have perfected both their inward and outward deeds but that discussion is outside this one.)

We can not judge a person's faith all we can see is his Islam in the sense of his outward actions.

"The second degree is eemaan (faith), which in Arabic means belief which is committed to submission. In Islamic terminology its meaning varies according to usage and it may mean one of two things:

(i) When the word is used on its own and is not accompanied by the word Islam, it refers to the religion as a whole, as in the verses where Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Allaah is the Wali (Protector or Guardian) of those who believe. He brings them out from darkness into light”

[al-Baqarah 2:257]

“and put your trust in Allaah if you are believers indeed”

[al-Maa’idah 5:23]

And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No one will enter Paradise except the believers.” Narrated by Muslim, 114.

Hence the salaf (means pious predessors) were unanimously agreed that eemaan means “affirming in the heart – which includes actions of the heart – and saying with the tongue and acting with one’s physical faculties. It increases by doing acts of obedience and decreases by committing sin.”

Hence Allaah limited the word eemaan to those who adhere to His religion in full, inwardly and outwardly, when He said (interpretation of the meaning):

“The believers are only those who, when Allaah is mentioned, feel a fear (in the sense of God consciousness) in their hearts and when His Verses (this Qur’aan) are recited unto them, they (i.e. the Verses) increase their Faith; and they put their trust in their Lord (Alone);

3. Who perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat‑as‑ Salaah) and spend out of that We have provided them.

4. It is they who are the believers in truth. For them are grades of dignity with their Lord, and forgiveness and a generous provision (Paradise)” [al-Anfaal 8:2-4]
Source: https://islamqa.info/en/49023

Here is an interesting video on this:
Thanks for the response. Being defensive is sometimes warranted. Simply put the human subconscious feeds off of it's own egotistical impulses. And our ego feeds off of it right back, and everything else for that matter. This causes a lot of anxiety, and stress. People in bad relationships, or crappy jobs are going to take that anxiety and they can than potentially dump it on other people. Or they push it down into their subconscious where it festers. And probably explodes one day.

The only actual healthy way to satisfy our impulses is to find socially acceptable substitutes. Like Art. Religion, Sports ect.
 
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Jesus nor the apostles were involved in the compiling of the bible. So I'm sure a lot of the gospels are close to the original. But so much could of been added and distorted.
If you love God and Jesus, you should read the Quran. Muhammad and his apostles were involved in it's compilation and what we read today is the original so nothing has been added or distorted. It is God's Final revelation to all of mankind.

You will find many striking similarities between Jesus' teachings in the gospel accounts with those of the Quran when you read it without bias and a sincere heart that longs for truth and longs to get closer to God. Peace.
 
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