What does the Koran actually say about prayer?

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It is a historical fact that Mohammad Mustafa (peace be upon him) passed away in 632 A.D.

It is likewise a historic fact that Muhammad al Bukhari reportedly spent 16 years writing the Hadith and another 24 editing them, until his death in 870 A.D., over 200 years after the death of Mohammad Mustafa (peace be upon him).

Further, it is also a historical fact that this collection of writings not only contradicts itself in numerous places, but also contradicts the Koran (Quran) and the Bible, proving beyond ANY doubt that it is NOT from Allah.
It is a misconception to say that the first hadeeths were recorded by Bukahari (810-870 A.D.), and that to imply thereby, that Bukhari collated mere tittle-tattle or hearsay about the Prophet (peace be upon him), centuries afterward. In reality, the process of transmission and propagation of hadeeth was as rigorous as it was continuous. Muhammad warned of several things which established the importance of transmitting his teachings reliably, among them being: (1) that those who made up lies about him will take their seat in hell, (2) that it is a sin to horde knowledge, and to be reluctant in conveying it to others, (3) that he, the Prophet, did not speak except the truth, nor speak from his own inclination, but of he that sent him, and (4) that it is an obligation on every Muslim to seek knowledge.

Companions recorded hadeeth in the life of the Prophet (peace be upon him), and in some cases, the Prophet (570-632 A.D.) dictated hadeeth to them himself. The Prophet encouraged those who studied in his presence to convey knowledge learnt to those absent. Looking to those companions from whom hadeeth are often narrated, we will see that they each had several students, some of whom wrote and compiled these hadeeth in booklets. For instance, at least 9 students of Abu Huraira, one of the most prolific narrators of hadeeth, wrote down hadeeth from him. Students of such intimate companions and family members of the Prophet as Anas ibn Malik, Aisha, and Ibn Abbas, also transmitted the hadeeths they were taught by their teachers, in written form. Besides the writing of hadeeth, companions mainly 'transmitted' hadeeth in two other ways: through memorisation, and through practice.

Al Azami, a contemporary hadeeth scholar, details extensively the scholars resposible for the transmission of hadeeth in the first few centuries of Islam in his 'Studies in Early Hadeeth Literature':
  • 50 companions, that were the contemporaries of the Prophet, recorded hadeeth.
  • 87 scholars recorded hadeeth in the late first, and early second, centuries (dates given according to Hijri calendar, A.H.).
  • In the early second century, 251 scholars collected and recorded hadeeth.
  • In summation, this means that 437 scholars recorded hadeeth in the first three centuries of Islam (there are likely more who we do not know of), all of whom lived and died before 250 A.H.

Al-Azami said, "I have established in my doctoral thesis Studies in early Hadeeth Literature that even in the first century of the Hijra many hundreds of booklets of hadeeth were in circulation. If we add another hundred years, it would be difficult to enumerate the quantity of booklets and books, which were in circulation. Even by the most conservative estimate they were many thousands." [Studies in Hadeeth Methodology and Literature (p.64)]

“These books were not destroyed nor did they perish, but (they) were absorbed into the work of later authors. When the encyclopedia-type books were produced scholars did not feel the necessity to keep the early books or booklets and so slowly they disappeared." [Studies in Hadeeth Methodology and Literature, p.64]

Three important verses highlight the importance of following the sunnah:

And in no way have We sent any Messenger except that he should be obeyed, by the permission of Allah; and if, as they have done an injustice to themselves, they had come to you, so (had) asked forgiveness from Allah, and the Messenger (had) asked forgiveness for them, indeed they would have found Allah Superbly Relenting, Ever-Merciful.
-- Quran 4:64

But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.
-- Quran 4:65

He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah: But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds).
-- Quran 4:80

The Messenger, refers, of course, to Muhammad. It does not refer to Jesus.

By the star when it descends, Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred, Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. It is not but a revelation revealed,
-- Quran 53:1-4
The above is analogous to John 12:49. Messengers do not speak out of their own desires, but those of God.
 






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billy t

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From the Shi'a perspective, so far as I understand it, the Sunnis are exotericists who haven't grasped the deeper esoteric truth. There are a couple of different currents in Shi'ism, major ones anyway, and then obviously various offshoots as happens with all religions. It's not like the Sunnis themselves are all on the same page doctrinally anyway.

I met someone who was a Shi'a on here, and he had a lot of respect for the esoteric side of all religions. Of course to the intellect it seems like there is all kinds of division between the different religious ideas, but in their core they are all the same truth, expressed in different ways for different spiritual and temporal purposes. I also read a little of Ali, and his words are very beautiful and powerful as only those of a genuinely awakened person can be.

As for this business about the NWO and their "one world religion", all I can say is "Demon est Deus Inversus". If all the spiritual people truly united this would be a powerful force for good. If all spiritual traditions become diluted with new age stuff, channeling, manifesting wealth etc., this of course will not be a good thing.
You mentioned how this Shi'ite respects the "exoteric side of Islam". Um there is no exoteric side of Islam. This is just nonsense that came from Gnosticism. I would ask this guy what is his proof that Islam has an exoteric proof? Allah says "say bring your proof if you are truthful". Islam is based on CLEAR evidences. Did the Prophet salAllahu ‘alaiyhi wasallam know about these exoteric truths? If they say no then I would ask then how do you know?! SubhaanAllah. Either 1) the Prophet salAllahu alaiyhi wasallam knew and didn’t teach his companions. This necessitates that he hided knowledge and was decietful. Authu billah. Allah said about the Jews “why do you hide the truth while you know?”. The Prophet is free of such a thing. 2) If he claims that he knows and the Prophet didn’t know then this implies that he knows of something about Islaam that he didn’t, salAllahu ‘alaiyhi wasallam. Exotericism has nothing to do with Islam. If it did then it would have been conveyed by Allah and his messenger salAllahu ‘alaiyhi wasallam.


In reality, exotericism this is used to twist the verses of the Allah just as the Jews did before the revelation of the Qur’aan. Allah said for example not to take interest and they twisted it so they could take interest from the gentiles. How did this occur? By EXOTERIC teachings. Some Shi'ite sects have twisted the meaning of many things in the Qur'aan to basically make up their own religion. Allahu yahdeek.


The claim that all religions teach good is wrong. Other religions teach to worship others besides Allah. Shi’ites for example worship Ali. Hindus worship Krishna and others. Allah said “verily Allah does not forgive that others are worshipped besides him but he forgives less than that to whom he wills”. This means associating partners with Allah, shirk is the worst sin. Therefore, other religions don’t teach good as is claimed by this Shi’ite because they teach the greatest evil which is associating others with Allah. Good is not something subjective. Good is what ALLAH says is good.


At the moment it is an ideological war that is happening. If a physical war takes place then we believe Muslims can unite with other people in certain scenarios. There is hadeeths about Musims uniting with Christians at the end of time to fight a common enemy. However, this is a separate issue.
 






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From the Shi'a perspective, so far as I understand it, the Sunnis are exotericists who haven't grasped the deeper esoteric truth. There are a couple of different currents in Shi'ism, major ones anyway, and then obviously various offshoots as happens with all religions. It's not like the Sunnis themselves are all on the same page doctrinally anyway.

I met someone who was a Shi'a on here, and he had a lot of respect for the esoteric side of all religions. Of course to the intellect it seems like there is all kinds of division between the different religious ideas, but in their core they are all the same truth, expressed in different ways for different spiritual and temporal purposes. I also read a little of Ali, and his words are very beautiful and powerful as only those of a genuinely awakened person can be.

As for this business about the NWO and their "one world religion", all I can say is "Demon est Deus Inversus". If all the spiritual people truly united this would be a powerful force for good. If all spiritual traditions become diluted with new age stuff, channeling, manifesting wealth etc., this of course will not be a good thing.
Why do you assume that every religion has some hidden, mystical element, to which the vast, 'profane' majority are not privy to, knowledge that must be reserved for an intellectually and morally superior elite?

Whatever hidden knowledge that belongs to god, and God alone, is not for the arrogant mortal to seek, thinking that he shall become like God.

Is it not enough that through God's wisdom, he has hidden that which he has hidden, and revealed that which he has deemed pertinent to reveal? To accept this is Islam, i.e. submission to God's will, not submission to one's own wills and desires.

In seeking the obscure esoterica, you will inevitably underestimate the value of that which lies under your very nose; that which God revealed, and made manifest to us, i.e. the worship of God alone, prayer, charity, fasting. Occultists always speak of "opening the third eye", well, what about opening your two eyes first?

Have you seen the one who turned away
And gave a little and [then] refrained?

Does he have knowledge of the unseen, so he sees?
Quran 53:33-35

He is the First and the Last, and the Manifest and the Hidden, and He is All-Knowing about every thing.
Quran 57:3

And whether ye hide your word or publish it, He certainly has [full] knowledge, of the secrets of [all] hearts. Should He not know,- He that created? and He is the One that understands the finest mysteries [and] is well-acquainted [with them].
Quran 67:13-14

The knowledge of the unseen belongs to God alone. The highest truth often lies in plain sight.
 






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It's not like the Sunnis themselves are all on the same page doctrinally anyway.
Not really. Muslims agree on all the fundamentals: (1) Believe in God alone, with no partners, (2) Establish prayer at its prescribed time, (3) Give in Charity, 2.5% of one's annual income, (4) Fasting in the month of Ramadan, (5) Go on pilgrimage to Makkah. Beyond that, disputes are largely political. No sect in the history of Islam has denied the Oneness of God, the Prophethood of Muhammad, or the Quran. Ask a Muslim in Jakarta, and a Muslim in Casablanca how they pray, you will see that their prayer is the same. God will judge Muslims in the matters on which they differed. But largely, the formula is known and accepted: Obey Allah, and obey his Messenger.
 






shankara

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Why do you assume that every religion has some hidden, mystical element, to which the vast, 'profane' majority are not privy to, knowledge that must be reserved for an intellectually and morally superior elite?

Whatever hidden knowledge that belongs to god, and God alone, is not for the arrogant mortal to seek, thinking that he shall become like God.

Is it not enough that through God's wisdom, he has hidden that which he has hidden, and revealed that which he has deemed pertinent to reveal? To accept this is Islam, i.e. submission to God's will, not submission to one's own wills and desires.

In seeking the obscure esoterica, you will inevitably underestimate the value of that which lies under your very nose; that which God revealed, and made manifest to us, i.e. the worship of God alone, prayer, charity, fasting. Occultists always speak of "opening the third eye", well, what about opening your two eyes first?

Have you seen the one who turned away
And gave a little and [then] refrained?

Does he have knowledge of the unseen, so he sees?
Quran 53:33-35

He is the First and the Last, and the Manifest and the Hidden, and He is All-Knowing about every thing.
Quran 57:3

And whether ye hide your word or publish it, He certainly has [full] knowledge, of the secrets of [all] hearts. Should He not know,- He that created? and He is the One that understands the finest mysteries [and] is well-acquainted [with them].
Quran 67:13-14

The knowledge of the unseen belongs to God alone. The highest truth often lies in plain sight.
There are things I simply cannot accept, in all of the Abrahamic religions, not just Islam. Predestination and the eternal punishment of "unbelievers" in particular, neither make sense. I have no problem with people fasting and praying, I think that Islam has a great deal of beauty in it, and when I travelled in Muslim countries I found the people to be very decent and hospitable, much more human than alienated and individualist Europeans. I just think that whatever religion one may practice, if one does so sincerely it is a form of "submission", of losing one's individual will in a greater will, overcoming oneself.
 






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I have no problem with people fasting and praying, I think that Islam has a great deal of beauty in it, and when I travelled in Muslim countries I found the people to be very decent and hospitable, much more human than alienated and individualist Europeans.
Your comment reminds me of Leopold Weiss/Muhammad Asad's observations when he first visited the Muslim world. Weiss was a journalist, of orthodox Jewish background, who wrote editorials on the Middle East for a prolific newspaper at the time called the Frankfurter Zeitung. He observed how the West had lost all faith in God, and how materialism and progress had become their new object of worship. And although he saw the cultural heights to which Islam had once propelled its adherents, he saw now (he was writing in the early half of the 20th century) how the light and grace of Islam was being eroded from the Islamic world, because they had descended into political sectarianism and cultural decay, and had abandoned the eternal values that Islam had called on them to uphold. He wrote a memoir called 'The Road to Mecca'.

Muhammad Asad, The Road to Mecca:
"In short, Islam gave a tremendous incentive to cultural achievements which constitute one of the proudest pages in the history of mankind; and it gave this incentive by saying Yes to the intellect and No to obscurantism, Yes to action and No to quietism, Yes to life and No to asceticism. Little wonder, then, that as soon as it emerged beyond the confines of Arabia, Islam won new adherents by leaps and bounds. Born and nurtured in the world- contempt of Pauline and Augustinian Christianity, the populations of Syria and North Africa, and a little later of Visigothic Spain, saw themselves suddenly confronted with a teaching which denied the dogma of Original Sin and stressed the inborn dignity of earthly life: and so they rallied in ever-increasing numbers to the new creed that gave them to understand that man was God's vicar on earth. This, and not a legendary 'conversion at the point of the sword', was the explanation of Islam's amazing triumph in the glorious morning of its history.

"It was not the Muslims that had made Islam great: it was Islam that had made the Muslims great. But as soon as their faith became habit and ceased to be a programme of life, to be consciously pursued, the creative impulse that underlay their civilization waned and gradually gave way to indolence, sterility and cultural decay."



"And it might well be, I thought, that we latecomers needed that message even more desperately than did the people of Muhammad's time. They lived in an environment much simpler than ours, and so their problems and difficulties had been much easier of solution. The world in which I was living - the whole of it - was wobbling because of the absence of any agreement as to what is good and evil spiritually and, therefore, socially and economically as well. I did not believe that individual man was in need of 'salvation': but I did believe that modern society was in need of salvation. More than any previous time, I felt with mounting certainty, this time of ours was in need of an ideological basis for a new social contract: it needed a faith that would make us understand the hollowness of material progress for the sake of progress alone - and nevertheless would give the life of this world its due; that would show us how to strike a balance between our spiritual and physical requirements: and thus save us from the disaster into which we were rushing headlong."
 






shankara

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Your comment reminds me of Leopold Weiss/Muhammad Asad's observations when he first visited the Muslim world. Weiss was a journalist, of orthodox Jewish background, who wrote editorials on the Middle East for a prolific newspaper at the time called the Frankfurter Zeitung. He observed how the West had lost all faith in God, and how materialism and progress had become their new object of worship. And although he saw the cultural heights to which Islam had once propelled its adherents, he saw now (he was writing in the early half of the 20th century) how the light and grace of Islam was being eroded from the Islamic world, because they had descended into political sectarianism and cultural decay, and had abandoned the eternal values that Islam had called on them to uphold. He wrote a memoir called 'The Road to Mecca'.

Muhammad Asad, The Road to Mecca:
"In short, Islam gave a tremendous incentive to cultural achievements which constitute one of the proudest pages in the history of mankind; and it gave this incentive by saying Yes to the intellect and No to obscurantism, Yes to action and No to quietism, Yes to life and No to asceticism. Little wonder, then, that as soon as it emerged beyond the confines of Arabia, Islam won new adherents by leaps and bounds. Born and nurtured in the world- contempt of Pauline and Augustinian Christianity, the populations of Syria and North Africa, and a little later of Visigothic Spain, saw themselves suddenly confronted with a teaching which denied the dogma of Original Sin and stressed the inborn dignity of earthly life: and so they rallied in ever-increasing numbers to the new creed that gave them to understand that man was God's vicar on earth. This, and not a legendary 'conversion at the point of the sword', was the explanation of Islam's amazing triumph in the glorious morning of its history.

"It was not the Muslims that had made Islam great: it was Islam that had made the Muslims great. But as soon as their faith became habit and ceased to be a programme of life, to be consciously pursued, the creative impulse that underlay their civilization waned and gradually gave way to indolence, sterility and cultural decay."



"And it might well be, I thought, that we latecomers needed that message even more desperately than did the people of Muhammad's time. They lived in an environment much simpler than ours, and so their problems and difficulties had been much easier of solution. The world in which I was living - the whole of it - was wobbling because of the absence of any agreement as to what is good and evil spiritually and, therefore, socially and economically as well. I did not believe that individual man was in need of 'salvation': but I did believe that modern society was in need of salvation. More than any previous time, I felt with mounting certainty, this time of ours was in need of an ideological basis for a new social contract: it needed a faith that would make us understand the hollowness of material progress for the sake of progress alone - and nevertheless would give the life of this world its due; that would show us how to strike a balance between our spiritual and physical requirements: and thus save us from the disaster into which we were rushing headlong."
Yeah Islam has definitely made an incredible contribution to the world's culture, weren't the first universities in Islamic countries? Of course it's a powerful force in resisting the materialism of modern "civilization". Though I think it is not immune from falling into decadence like all other religious teachings - I once briefly visited Brunei, where the sultan had spent vast amounts of money building marble mosques with real gold plating on their domes. To be honest they weren't particularly beautiful, they didn't give me the feeling of transcendence that one has in some old churches and cathedrals, and I imagine in mosques though of course I've only seen them from outside. Also there are all these Saudis promoting a very extreme traditionalist form of Islam (often known as Wahabbism, which you have already discussed a little I see) while living lives of great luxury, which to me doesn't seem like a genuinely spiritual way of living.

So if you don't like Sufis, you don't like Rumi?
 






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Yeah Islam has definitely made an incredible contribution to the world's culture, weren't the first universities in Islamic countries? Of course it's a powerful force in resisting the materialism of modern "civilization". Though I think it is not immune from falling into decadence like all other religious teachings - I once briefly visited Brunei, where the sultan had spent vast amounts of money building marble mosques with real gold plating on their domes. To be honest they weren't particularly beautiful, they didn't give me the feeling of transcendence that one has in some old churches and cathedrals, and I imagine in mosques though of course I've only seen them from outside. Also there are all these Saudis promoting a very extreme traditionalist form of Islam (often known as Wahabbism, which you have already discussed a little I see) while living lives of great luxury, which to me doesn't seem like a genuinely spiritual way of living.

So if you don't like Sufis, you don't like Rumi?
Muhammad Asad did speak of Sufism in the Road to Mecca:
My recent fever-borne remembrance of the whirling dervishes of Scutari somehow bothered me. It had unexpectedly acquired a puzzling significance that had not been apparent in the original experience. The esoteric rites of this religious order - one of the many I had encountered in various Muslim countries - did not seem to fit into the picture of Islam that was slowly forming in my mind. I requested my Azhari friend to bring me some orientalist works on the subject; and, through them, my instinctive suspicion that esoterism of this kind had intruded into the Muslim orbit from non-Islamic sources was confirmed. The speculations of the sūfis, as the Muslim mystics were called, betrayed Gnostic, Indian and occasionally even Christian influences which had brought in ascetic concepts and practices entirely alien to the message of the Arabian Prophet. In his message, reason was stressed as the only real way to faith. While the validity of mystical experience was not necessarily precluded in this approach, Islam was primarily an intellectual and not an emotional proposition. Although, naturally enough, it produced a strong emotional attachment in its followers, Muhammad's teaching did not accord to emotion as such any independent role in religious perceptions: for emotions, however profound, are far more liable to be swayed by subjective desires and fears than reason, with all its fallibility, ever could be.

As for the sultans and kings living in luxury at the expense of their people, that undoubtedly, has no theological basis. The Prophet (peace be upon him) left nothing at his death, not even a single camel or dirham. He and his household lived a meagre and humble life, and not in towering, ornate palaces. The rightly-guided caliphs who followed him, too, led ordinary lives, despite their statuses as heads of state.
 






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A Freeman

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When the Prophet salAllahu 'alaiyhi wasallam was alive then he taught his companions certian affairs. Any Muslim agrees that the Prophet salAllahu 'alaiyhi wasallam in his lifetime should be obeyed. When he taught the Companions certain affairs, for example how to recite the Qur'aan, how to pray, the specifications of certain punisments etc, then they followed him salAllahu 'alaiyhi wasallam. Now when the Prophet salAllahu 'alaiyhi wasallam died his Companions taught this to those who never met him.
And what evidence is there that any of this actually happened? Better yet, where does it tell us in the Koran (Quran) that this is what actually happened, or prophesy it would happen in the future? Surely if Mohammad (peace be upon him) was meant to be the central figure of yet another, organized religion, it would tell us that in the Koran, would it not?

Further, WHERE DOES IT TELL US IN THE KORAN THAT MOHAMMAD WAS A PROPHET, i.e. someone who PROPHESIES?

THE KORAN CONTAINS NO NEW PROPHECIES, but was sent down as a WARNING to all who are “true in faith” to CONFIRM The Law (Torah, Books of Moses, found only in the Old Covenant) and the Gospel of Jesus (found only in the New Covenant) that came before it, as it says repeatedly throughout the Koran.

Sura 46:9-11
46:9. Say: "I am no bringer of new-fangled doctrine among the Apostles, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow only that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am only a Warner open and clear."
46:10. Say: "See ye? If (this teaching) be from "I AM", and ye reject it, and a Witness (Rev. 1:5; Sura 43:61) from among the Children of Israel testifies to its HARMONY (with EARLIER Scripture - JAH), and has believed while ye are arrogant, (how unjust ye are!) truly, "I AM" guides not a people unjust."
46:11. The Unbelievers say of those who believe: "If (this Message) were a good thing, (such men) would not have gone to it first, before us!" And seeing that they guide not themselves thereby, they will say, "This is an (old,) old falsehood!"
46:12. And BEFORE this, was the Book of Moses (The Torah - The Law) as a guide and a mercy: and this Book CONFIRMS (it - The Torah) in the Arabic tongue; to warn the unjust, and as Good New to those who do right.

See also: Sura 2:97-98, 3:1-3, 4:47, 5:51, 6:92-94, 6:154-157, 10:37, 12:111, 22:52, 35:31, and 61:6-7.

And with regard to prayer, shouldn't we simply DO what Allah and His Prophets have COMMANDED us to do rather than what men make up in direct contradiction to Allah's COMMANDS? How could doing the opposite of what Allah COMMANDS be considered submitting to His Will?

Are you saying it was wrong for them to teach what they learned?
Are you saying it is right for men to teach that which Allah didn't send down? Do you believe that Allah is the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33)? We ought to obey God (Allah, the “I AM”) rather than men (Acts 5:29), wouldn't you agree?

If so, why? The Companions who lived in different areas would accept narrations(hadeeth) from other companions even though they did not hear it themselves.
To keep their “oral traditions” (made-up fables, fantasies and stories found nowhere in Scripture) going, thereby making the Commandments of God of no effect.

Allah said "if a fasiq comes to you with news verify it". This means if a trustworthy person comes we accept it. The Companions were trustworthy because Allah said "he is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him".
Where did Allah say ANY of that in the Old Covenant, New Covenant and/or in the Koran? So-called “Islamic law” is CONDEMNED as TREASON against Allah by Allah Himself, in HIS LAW (Deut. 4:2, 12:8, 12:32), found only in the first five books of the Bible, namely Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

Those students of the companions likewise taught their students. Most hadeeths have around 3 to 5 narrators. If those indiviudals are trustworthy and known to be of those with strong memory etc, then we take what they report.
And who determines who or what is considered “trustworthy”? Wouldn't God's Word from one of His Prophets or Messengers ALL need to agree/harmonize with everything that was sent down BEFORE it, as God (Allah) says?

Again, what evidence do you have that ANY of the “oral traditions” are true? According to Allah, the Bible is not only trustworthy, but we should NOT BE IN DOUBT of it reaching us (Sura 32:23). So what do the so-called imams – who teach from the Hadith – tell us: the LIE that the Bible has been corrupted, and/or no longer exists.

The word “Satan” is Hebrew and means “the Opposer”. Anyone who says the exact opposite of what Allah says is a LIAR (devil) and is obviously working for Satan/Iblis, and NOTHING they say can be trusted.

Islam has a very detailed system for preserving these narrations unlike the Judaic system that has no way of identifying if narrators are trustworthy or not.
Neither Talmudic Judaism nor "Islam" have any evidence that ANY of their “oral traditions” (Talmud and Hadith, respectively) are the truth from our Creator. In fact, according to the Koran -- and THE Prophet Who is mentioned and emphasized above all others throughout the Koran – both the Talmud and Hadith originated from Satan, to make the Commandments of God of no effect.

Sura 3:55. Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, to The Day of Resurrection: then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

Matthew 15:3, 9
15:3 But he (Jesus) answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the COMMANDment of God by your Tradition?

15:9 But in vain they do worship Me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men (man-made “laws”/legislation/organized religious doctrines, dogma, rites and rituals).

Allah preserved the Sunnah
Allah didn't have anything whatsoever to do with Satan's Sunnah/Hadith.

as He preserved the Qur'aan. How was the Qur'aan passed down?
Mohammad (peace be upon him) was visited by Gabriel in a cave on Mt. Hira in 610 A.D. at age 40. Mohammad, who could neither read nor write, dictated the vision he was given to those who were with him, so everything could be written down. Mohammad then had them read it back to him, to check for mistakes.

Those writings were then compiled c. 650 A.D., under Caliph Uthman bin Affan, who had all other remaining transcripts destroyed. This could explain the alterations made to the Koran.

Through the isnaad (chain of transmission). So if your going to reject the Sunnah because you say its like Chinese whispers or whatever other argument you may have then, cool. you should likewise reject the Qur'aan as it was transmitted in the same way!
As above please. The Koran was written down as it was given to Mohammad. Did some people memorize it? Apparently so. Was that the sole method of its transmission? NO. Does the Koran tell us that the "oral traditions of men" will be later handed down in such a manner or that they should be heeded? NO.

By contrast, the “oral traditions” known as the Sunnah/Hadith came AFTER the Koran, NOT before it. Over 200 years later, these alleged "oral tradiitions" were allegedly written down over a period of at least 16 years, by people who had never met Mohammad (peace be upon him), nor any of his closest companions, all of whom had long since passed away. And then the Hadith underwent edits for decades after that.

According to Allah, the Koran was sent to CONFIRM the Scriptures that came BEFORE it, i.e. the Bible. NOWHERE in the Koran does Allah tell us that He will be sending down “oral traditions” or some “newfangled doctrine” afterwards. And no, despite other baseless arguments, there is no need to distinguish between the “oral traditions” referred to as “Sunnah” and the “oral traditions” known as the rest of the Hadith, because both are the satanically-motivated “traditions of men”, same as the Babylonian Talmud is.

Sufyan ath-Thawri said "if it wasn't for the isnaad anyone could say as they want".
Which is exactly what has been done, teaching for doctrines the traditions of men in direct violation of The Law/Commandments of God.

Whenever God sends down His Word/Message to mankind, Lucifer/Satan/Iblis turns it into an organized religion, to further divide and conquer us. When will we ever learn?

Whoever rejects the Sunnah is a kaafir, period. Allahu yahdeek.
Whoever rejects the Old Covenant, New Covenant and Koran is an unbeliever/infidel who will face The Fire on Judgment Day, exactly as we've been warned repeatedly (at least 300 times) throughout the Koran. That's why those who make the false claim as you just have about the Sunnah cannot back their false claim with Scripture.

May Father (God) bless you and guide you.
 






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A Freeman

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It is a misconception to say that the first hadeeths were recorded by Bukahari (810-870 A.D.), and that to imply thereby, that Bukhari collated mere tittle-tattle or hearsay about the Prophet (peace be upon him), centuries afterward. In reality, the process of transmission and propagation of hadeeth was as rigorous as it was continuous.
And what evidence do you have of any of these claims?

Muhammad warned of several things which established the importance of transmitting his teachings reliably, among them being: (1) that those who made up lies about him will take their seat in hell, (2) that it is a sin to horde knowledge, and to be reluctant in conveying it to others, (3) that he, the Prophet, did not speak except the truth, nor speak from his own inclination, but of he that sent him, and (4) that it is an obligation on every Muslim to seek knowledge.
Sura 3:79. It is NOT (POSSIBLE) that a man, to whom is given The Book, and Wisdom, and the Prophetic office, should say to people: "Be ye my worshippers rather than God's": on the contrary (he would say) "Be ye worshippers of Him Who is truly the Cherisher of all: for ye have taught The Book and ye have studied it earnestly (Deut. 27:26, Matt. 5:48)."

Companions recorded hadeeth in the life of the Prophet (peace be upon him), and in some cases, the Prophet (570-632 A.D.) dictated hadeeth to them himself.
Is there any evidence that these "oral traditions" were written down at any time prior to c. 850 A.D.?

The Prophet encouraged those who studied in his presence to convey knowledge learnt to those absent. Looking to those companions from whom hadeeth are often narrated, we will see that they each had several students, some of whom wrote and compiled these hadeeth in booklets. For instance, at least 9 students of Abu Huraira, one of the most prolific narrators of hadeeth, wrote down hadeeth from him. Students of such intimate companions and family members of the Prophet as Anas ibn Malik, Aisha, and Ibn Abbas, also transmitted the hadeeths they were taught by their teachers, in written form. Besides the writing of hadeeth, companions mainly 'transmitted' hadeeth in two other ways: through memorisation, and through practice.

Al Azami, a contemporary hadeeth scholar, details extensively the scholars resposible for the transmission of hadeeth in the first few centuries of Islam in his 'Studies in Early Hadeeth Literature':
  • 50 companions, that were the contemporaries of the Prophet, recorded hadeeth.
  • 87 scholars recorded hadeeth in the late first, and early second, centuries (dates given according to Hijri calendar, A.H.).
  • In the early second century, 251 scholars collected and recorded hadeeth.
  • In summation, this means that 437 scholars recorded hadeeth in the first three centuries of Islam (there are likely more who we do not know of), all of whom lived and died before 250 A.H.

Al-Azami said, "I have established in my doctoral thesis Studies in early Hadeeth Literature that even in the first century of the Hijra many hundreds of booklets of hadeeth were in circulation. If we add another hundred years, it would be difficult to enumerate the quantity of booklets and books, which were in circulation. Even by the most conservative estimate they were many thousands." [Studies in Hadeeth Methodology and Literature (p.64)]

“These books were not destroyed nor did they perish, but (they) were absorbed into the work of later authors. When the encyclopedia-type books were produced scholars did not feel the necessity to keep the early books or booklets and so slowly they disappeared." [Studies in Hadeeth Methodology and Literature, p.64]
Is there any evidence outside the organized religion known as Islam, to verify ANY of this?

Three important verses highlight the importance of following the sunnah:

And in no way have We sent any Messenger except that he should be obeyed, by the permission of Allah; and if, as they have done an injustice to themselves, they had come to you, so (had) asked forgiveness from Allah, and the Messenger (had) asked forgiveness for them, indeed they would have found Allah Superbly Relenting, Ever-Merciful.
-- Quran 4:46
Did you mean Sura 4:64 instead please? Because Sura 4:46-50 states the following, which seems interesting, particularly given the fact the "Jews" make the same false claims about their "oral traditions" (Talmud) being Divinely inspired as the "Muslims" do about their "oral traditions" (Sunnah/Hadith):

Sura 4:46-50
4:46. Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, and say: "We hear and we disobey"; and "Hear what is NOT heard"; and "Pay attention to us"; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith. If only they had said: "We hear and we obey"; and "Do hear"; and "Do look at us": it would have been better for them, and more proper; but God hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and only few of them will believe.
4:47. O ye People of The Book! Believe in what We have (now) revealed, confirming what was (already) with you, before We change the face and fame of some (of you) beyond all recognition, and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of God MUST be carried out.
4:48. God forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with God is to devise a sin most heinous indeed.
4:49. Hast thou not turned thy vision to those who claim sanctity for themselves? Nay- but God doth sanctify whom He pleaseth. But never will they fail to receive justice in the least little thing.
4:50. Behold! how they invent a lie against God! But that by itself is a manifest sin!

Sura 4:64. We did not send (past tense) an Apostle, except to be obeyed (past tense), in accordance with the Will of God. If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked God's forgiveness, and THE Messenger had asked forgiveness for them (Mark 2:5-10, 1 Tim. 2:5), they would have found God indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

Mark 2:5-10
2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
2:6 But there were certain of the lawyers sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
2:7 Why doth this [man] thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
2:9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, [Thy] sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of Man hath power on Earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)


1 Timothy 2:5 For [there is] ONE God, and One mediator between God and men, the Man Jesus Christ;

But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.
-- Quran 4:65
Please note well there is no mention of any "oral traditions", or prophecy that they would come, or that any of those oral traditions of men were God's Decisions.

He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah: But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds).
-- Quran 4:80

The Messenger, refers, of course, to Muhammad. It does not refer to Jesus.
Of course you are wrong. And there is still no mention of any "oral traditions" or that any such traditions of men were sent by Allah or any of His Messengers, including THE Messenger (Christ, Who previously was incarnated in the body of Jesus).

Sura 4:80-81
4:80. He who obeys the Messenger, obeys God. But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds).
4:81. They have "Obedience" on their lips; but when they leave thee, a section of them meditate all night on things very different from what thou tellest them. But God records their nightly (plots): so keep clear of them, and put thy trust in God, and enough is God as a disposer of affairs.

Matthew 15:7-9
15:7 [Ye] hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is FAR from me.
15:9 But in vain they do worship Me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men (man-made "laws"/legislation/traditions).


Matthew 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the COMMANDment of God by your Tradition?

By the star when it descends, Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred, Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. It is not but a revelation revealed,
-- Quran 53:1-4
The above is analogous to John 12:49. Messengers do not speak out of their own desires, but those of God.
You have very deceitfully added Muhammed to the above verse. Are you claiming that Muhammad was without sin (did not err)? If we look at that passage honestly, it becomes self-evident it is referring to Christ..

Sura 53:1-3
53:1. By the Star when it goes down,-
53:2. Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled.
53:3. Nor does he say (anything) of (his own) Desire.

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a "Star" (beam/ Being of Light) fall from heaven unto the Earth: and to HIM was given the key of the Bottomless Pit.

King of kings' Bible - Revelation 30:16 ( 22:16 KJV) And there was great Light and there stood before me the Saviour, the Christ. And he spake thus, that I may know the authority of the angel. And bade "Watch for the 'Star' that was foretold by the Prophet Jacob, that you will know the time of the Second Coming (Sura 43:61), when I will enter all hearts. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the communities. I am the root (source) and the successor of David (Eze. 21:27), [and] the bright and Morning Star."

John 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I HAVE CALLED YOU FRIENDS; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

John 6:38-39
6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the Will of Him that sent me.
6:39 And this is the Father's Will which hath sent me, that of all which He hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the Last Day.


John 7:15-19
7:15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man "Letters", having never been taught (Sura 7:157-158)?
7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but His that sent me.
7:17 If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.
7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh His glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
7:19 Did not Moses give you The Law, and [yet] none of you keepeth The Law? Why go ye about to kill me?


Sura 7:157-158
7:157. Those who follow The Apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures - the Bible),- in The Law (The Torah) and The Gospel (New Testament - Covenant);- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); he releases them from their heavy burdens (Matthew 23:1-4) and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe him, honour him, help him, and follow the Light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper [King of kings' Bible - John 8:3 (KJV - John 8:12)]."
7:158. Say: "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of "I AM", to Whom belongeth the Dominion of the heavens and the Earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in "I AM" and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet (John 7:15-19), who believeth "I AM" and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided (by "The Way" - John 14:6)."

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am The Way, the Truth, and the Life: NOT one man cometh unto the Father, EXCEPT by me.

No one can come to Father (God) except by following THE One and ONLY Example we have in Christ, which is SUPERIOR to those without faith (Sura 3:55).
 






billy t

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Why do you assume that every religion has some hidden, mystical element, to which the vast, 'profane' majority are not privy to, knowledge that must be reserved for an intellectually and morally superior elite?

Whatever hidden knowledge that belongs to god, and God alone, is not for the arrogant mortal to seek, thinking that he shall become like God.

Is it not enough that through God's wisdom, he has hidden that which he has hidden, and revealed that which he has deemed pertinent to reveal? To accept this is Islam, i.e. submission to God's will, not submission to one's own wills and desires.

In seeking the obscure esoterica, you will inevitably underestimate the value of that which lies under your very nose; that which God revealed, and made manifest to us, i.e. the worship of God alone, prayer, charity, fasting. Occultists always speak of "opening the third eye", well, what about opening your two eyes first?

Have you seen the one who turned away
And gave a little and [then] refrained?

Does he have knowledge of the unseen, so he sees?
Quran 53:33-35

He is the First and the Last, and the Manifest and the Hidden, and He is All-Knowing about every thing.
Quran 57:3

And whether ye hide your word or publish it, He certainly has [full] knowledge, of the secrets of [all] hearts. Should He not know,- He that created? and He is the One that understands the finest mysteries [and] is well-acquainted [with them].
Quran 67:13-14

The knowledge of the unseen belongs to God alone. The highest truth often lies in plain sight.
Well said. BaarikAllahu feek.
 






shankara

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Muhammad Asad did speak of Sufism in the Road to Mecca:
My recent fever-borne remembrance of the whirling dervishes of Scutari somehow bothered me. It had unexpectedly acquired a puzzling significance that had not been apparent in the original experience. The esoteric rites of this religious order - one of the many I had encountered in various Muslim countries - did not seem to fit into the picture of Islam that was slowly forming in my mind. I requested my Azhari friend to bring me some orientalist works on the subject; and, through them, my instinctive suspicion that esoterism of this kind had intruded into the Muslim orbit from non-Islamic sources was confirmed. The speculations of the sūfis, as the Muslim mystics were called, betrayed Gnostic, Indian and occasionally even Christian influences which had brought in ascetic concepts and practices entirely alien to the message of the Arabian Prophet. In his message, reason was stressed as the only real way to faith. While the validity of mystical experience was not necessarily precluded in this approach, Islam was primarily an intellectual and not an emotional proposition. Although, naturally enough, it produced a strong emotional attachment in its followers, Muhammad's teaching did not accord to emotion as such any independent role in religious perceptions: for emotions, however profound, are far more liable to be swayed by subjective desires and fears than reason, with all its fallibility, ever could be.

As for the sultans and kings living in luxury at the expense of their people, that undoubtedly, has no theological basis. The Prophet (peace be upon him) left nothing at his death, not even a single camel or dirham. He and his household lived a meagre and humble life, and not in towering, ornate palaces. The rightly-guided caliphs who followed him, too, led ordinary lives, despite their statuses as heads of state.
Well a lot of people have an aversion to mysticism. It's difficult for somebody caught up in the exoteric or popular forms of a religion to understand the things which are beyond the dogmas they are taught to profess. I don't think that there is anything "evil" about exoteric religion, they simply have different purposes to the mystic forms.

As to Sufism not being founded on "intellect" but rather emotion, well first I would say that both are aspects of any spiritual practice, one should not exclude the other. But there's plenty of illogic in the popular forms of Islam (predestination, eternal torment of unbelievers). Of course many mystic schools incorporate syncretic elements, because there is the recognition (through practise, experience) that the same truths are expressed in different ways for different people at different times.
 






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Well a lot of people have an aversion to mysticism. It's difficult for somebody caught up in the exoteric or popular forms of a religion to understand the things which are beyond the dogmas they are taught to profess. I don't think that there is anything "evil" about exoteric religion, they simply have different purposes to the mystic forms.

As to Sufism not being founded on "intellect" but rather emotion, well first I would say that both are aspects of any spiritual practice, one should not exclude the other. But there's plenty of illogic in the popular forms of Islam (predestination, eternal torment of unbelievers). Of course many mystic schools incorporate syncretic elements, because there is the recognition (through practise, experience) that the same truths are expressed in different ways for different people at different times.
'Mysticism' is inevitably a very vague and intangible conception (and a term propagated by Orientalists, who are known for their misrepresentation of Islam and Muhammad), that can be molded to suit the whims of the soul, which is called the 'nafs', or ego, in the Quran. So-called 'Islamic mysticism' consists of an amalgamation of practices not found in the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).

Asceticism, for instance, is one thing practiced in Sufism that has no basis in the Quran, or teachings of the Prophet. It is in fact forbidden. Instead, Muslims are always called upon to take the middle path in worldly matters: neither indulging and becoming attached to wealth, children, property, etc., nor forsaking them so that you cannot earn a living, e.g. through trade and business. In place of asceticism, there is a concept in Islam called 'zuhd', which means to look beyond the illusory distractions of the material world to the world of the hereafter, which God describes in the Quran, as being 'better, and more enduring' (87:17). Where Muslims are called upon to worship one God with no partners, associates, or second (the Lord of Abraham), Sufis are dangerously close to following pantheistic ideas, such as 'The slave is the Lord and the Lord is a slave' (ibn Arabi), and 'He Whom I love is I; we are two souls co-inhabiting one body. If you see me you see Him and if you see Him you see me' (Mansoor al-Hallaj). Ibn Arabi also believed that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is a divine, almost Christ-like figure, who was the first being to be created, and rests on the throne of God. Naturally, this is antithetical to monotheism.

When you contaminate the foundation, i.e. the insistence on one God, who is not like his that which he created, and does not reside within creation; you decapitate God, and take your own 'nafs'/ego to be your highest authority. The Quran warns of this often: 'And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein' (50:16); 'Have you then considered him who takes his low desire for his god?' (45:23). It is only in submitting, and humbling oneself to God's will that one can attain true peace. This is the exact opposite of Crowley's diktat, 'do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law'.

On submission to God, the Quran says: 'Those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah - Islamic Monotheism), and whose hearts find rest in the remembrance of Allah, Verily, in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find rest' (13:28); 'Do not be like those who forget about God. He will make them forget themselves. These are the sinful people' (59:19). It speaks to man's arrogance that he thinks he can acquire hidden knowledge, that is known to God alone. In response to these delusions of grandeur, the Quran reminds humans of their humble origin: 'Has there not been over Man a long period of Time, when he was nothing - (not even) mentioned? Verily We created Man from a drop of mingled sperm' (76:1-2).

Ultimately, it is only through submission to God that we can find success in this world, and in the hereafter: 'Hold fast to God’s rope all together; do not split into factions. Remember God’s favour to you: you were enemies and then He brought your hearts together and you became brothers by His grace; you were about to fall into a pit of Fire and He saved you from it- in this way God makes His revelations clear to you so that you may be rightly guided' (3:103).

Ibn Mas’ud reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, drew a line in the sand with his hand and he said, “This is the straight path of Allah.” Then, the Prophet drew lines to the right and left, and he said, “These are other paths, and there is no path among them but that a devil is upon it calling to its way.” Then the Prophet recited the verse, “Verily, this is the straight path, so follow it and do not follow other ways.” (6:153) Musnad Ahmah 4423
 






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Note: I have used only Yusuf Ali's translation. Not any other, such as Pickthall.

And what evidence do you have of any of these claims?
The evidence is contained within the hadeeth, which you reject on the basis that they were creations of Bukhari, with no connection whatsoever to Muhammad (peace be upon him [pbuh]). This is a false claim; many companions (contemporaries of Muhammad [pbuh]) kept written booklets of hadeeth, that were assimilated into the collections by Bukhari and Muslim, Imam Malik, Imam Hanbal, and others. It was in caliphate of Umar ibn al-Khattab that hadeeth began to be compiled into volumes, continuing in the caliphate of Umar ibn Abdul-Aziz (Umar II). I shall expound on this here with further evidence.

Sura 3:79. It is NOT (POSSIBLE) that a man, to whom is given The Book, and Wisdom, and the Prophetic office, should say to people: "Be ye my worshippers rather than God's": on the contrary (he would say) "Be ye worshippers of Him Who is truly the Cherisher of all: for ye have taught The Book and ye have studied it earnestly (Deut. 27:26, Matt. 5:48)."
Another poster similarly argued that, because Muslims must obey both Allah and Muhammad (pbuh), we have become worshippers of Muhammad. This is a strawman. The authority that I obey, does not become, by virtue of my obedience, an object I take for worship besides God. Again, I will quote 4:64 (in the Yusuf Ali translation): ‘We sent not a messenger, but to be obeyed, in accordance with the will of Allah’. Muhammad (peace be upon him), was a prophet and messenger of God, as repeated throughout the Quran, and enshrined in Chapter 33, verse 40: ‘Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things’. It goes without saying that Muhammad (pbuh) called only to the worship of one God, Allah, and not to the worship of created, mortal beings, or inanimate objects.

Is there any evidence that these "oral traditions" were written down at any time prior to c. 850 A.D.?
You fail to realise that Bukhari did not create hadeeth, he collected them. And who did he collect them from? From those who had written records of the hadeeth, and those who had been taught hadeeth from their teachers, who themselves would have been contemporaries of the companions of the Prophet, or the pupils of companions (called the 'tabioon' [followers]). Moreover, Bukhari's criteria for distinguishing sound hadeeth from weak hadeeth were meticulous, and I would argue, more rigorous than academic referencing in the modern age. Bukhari sifted through 600,000 hadeeth, and discarded all but 7400, which became Sahih Bukhari. Another prolific compilation of hadeeth, the Muwatta of Imam Malik, predates Sahih Bukhari by almost a hundred years, and contains 1900 hadeeth, sifted from the 100,000 available to Imam Malik. The individual transmitters of hadeeth are each carefully scrutinised by the collectors of hadeeth, and the continuity in their chains of transmission verified. More than one individual would narrate the same hadeeth, meaning that in collection of hadeeth, there are identical reports from several transmitters. The evaluation of hadeeth constitutes a science called 'ilm ul-hadeeth', or hadeeth criticism. Those who compiled hadeeth had been trained in the knowledge of Quran and Sunnah for decades before undertaking such endeavours.

Is there any evidence outside the organized religion known as Islam, to verify ANY of this?
You continue to level this accusation against Islam; that it is an ’organised religion’. You cannot, by virtue of the fact that there are some 1.8 billion that adhere to the Quran and Sunnah, and implement its injunctions in their daily lives, dismiss all evidence that originates from its body of thought. This is the genetic fallacy; the origin of a piece of information does not automatically disqualify its being logical or valid. Christianity, I may add, is also an organised religion, more so than most.

The evidence you demand is clear enough to him who will look: the greatest teacher was Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), who taught his companions the meaning of the Quran, and the means by which they may be properly implemented in everyday life. The companions are to Muhammad what the disciples were to Jesus; his students and apprentices, who obeyed him as one must obey the Messenger of the Supreme God, imitating his manner of prayer, speech, hygiene, and behaviour. It does not befit a Messenger of God to act in any way, except that which is pleasing to his Lord. The Quran says (33:21): ‘Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern [of conduct] for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah’. Surah Muhammad, ayah 33 further states: ‘O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger, and make not vain your deeds!’

Did you mean Sura 4:64 instead please? Because Sura 4:46-50 states the following, which seems interesting, particularly given the fact the "Jews" make the same false claims about their "oral traditions" (Talmud) being Divinely inspired as the "Muslims" do about their "oral traditions" (Sunnah/Hadith):
Thank you for showing me my mistake, I have corrected the reference.

Sura 4:64. We did not send (past tense) an Apostle, except to be obeyed (past tense), in accordance with the Will of God. If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked God's forgiveness, and THE Messenger had asked forgiveness for them (Mark 2:5-10, 1 Tim. 2:5), they would have found God indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
Of course, this does not exclude Muhammad. Muhammad was a Messenger of God, the seal of the Prophets, and a mercy to mankind.

Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
(33:40)

We sent thee not, but as a Mercy for all creatures.
(21:107)

Of course you are wrong. And there is still no mention of any "oral traditions" or that any such traditions of men were sent by Allah or any of His Messengers, including THE Messenger (Christ, Who previously was incarnated in the body of Jesus).
Yes, there is no mention of this term, the ’oral tradition’. However, there need not be. There is the repeated command to ‘Obey Allah, and obey his Messenger’ (3:32, 9:71, 8:46, etc.). I assure you, that the Quran, which was revealed to Muhammad, addressed only Muhammad where the ‘Messenger’ is referred to. It is certainly strange to claim otherwise; the Torah was addressed to Moses and his people, the Gospel was addressed to Jesus and his people, and the Quran was addressed to Muhammad and his people. Muhammad is referred to as ’rasool-Allah’ (meaning the 'Messenger of Allah' in Arabic). There are clear verses in the Quran addressing Muhammad (pbuh) that cannot be referring to Jesus. I can provide endless pieces of evidence for this. Here are several:
  • Allah's Good Pleasure was on the Believers when they swore Fealty to thee under the Tree: He knew what was in their hearts, and He sent down Tranquillity to them; and He rewarded them with a speedy Victory’ (48:18). This is an explicit reference to the pledge of allegiance taken by the companions to the Prophet, to avenge what they believed to be the murder of Uthman by the Quraysh in Makkah (he was later found to be alive). Soon after this, the Makkans and the Prophet consolidated a non-aggression pact/treaty, that was to last 10 years. This could not possibly refer to Jesus (pbuh).
  • 'If ye help not (your leader), (it is no matter): for Allah did indeed help him, when the Unbelievers drove him out: he had no more than one companion; they two were in the cave, and he said to his companion, "Have no fear, for Allah is with us": then Allah sent down His peace upon him, and strengthened him with forces which ye saw not, and humbled to the depths the word of the Unbelievers...' (9:40). This refers to the time where Muhammad (pbuh) fled to Madina with Abu Bakr, with the Makkans in pursuit of them, intent on killing him. They hid in a cave, and the Makkans passed by them, unaware. The verse speaks of 'two... in the cave'; these refer to Muhammad, and Abu Bakr.
  • '(The Prophet) frowned and turned away, Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting). But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow (in spiritual understanding)?- Or that he might receive admonition, and the teaching might profit him?' (80:1-4). This is a gentle reproach given to Muhammad by God, because he did not pay attention to the blind man in the gathering, who asked to speak with him to explain about some verses of the Quran, thereby disturbing his conversation. God corrected him, even in this slight matter (of a frown), because he holds his Messengers to a high standard, and expects the best of them. Their behaviour is an example to be imitated by their followers.
  • 'By the Glorious Morning Light, And by the Night when it is still,- Thy Guardian-Lord hath not forsaken thee, nor is He displeased. And verily the Hereafter will be better for thee than the present. And soon will thy Guardian-Lord give thee (that wherewith) thou shalt be well-pleased. Did He not find thee an orphan and give thee shelter (and care)?' (93:1-6). This is part of Surah Duha, which comforts Muhammad in his despair that revelation had not come to him from God for several months, hence 'thy Guardian-Lord hath not forsaken thee'. God also reminds Muhammad that he was an orphan, and God provided for him. Jesus was not orphaned; his mother Mary (blessings of God be upon her), did not die when he was a child. However, this is true of Muhammad; his father died before his birth, and his mother died before he turned six.
  • 'The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful' (49:14). The bedouins were commanded to submit to Allah, and his Messenger. Were there bedouin nomads in the time of Jesus, or in his city?
  • 'We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms' (4:163). God first addresses 'thee', which is Muhammad, and then refers, in the list of messengers to Jesus (pbuh). Would God refer to Jesus twice here? That would mean God would be saying, we gave ‘thee’ (Jesus) inspiration, as we have given to Jesus, which makes no sense.
  • 'And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah [sent] to you, confirming the Law [which came] before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!" ' (61:6). Jesus (pbuh) informs his people, the Israelites, that a Messenger will come after him, who is called Ahmad, a synonym of the name Muhammad. Muhammad is said to have come with clear signs, which refers to the revelation of the Quran; so the verse makes a distinction here between Jesus and the Law that he taught, and the Messenger (Muhammad) who will come after him, with clear signs. One cannot be interchanged with the other.
  • 'They ask thee concerning (things taken as) spoils of war. Say: "(such) spoils are at the disposal of Allah and the Messenger: So fear Allah, and keep straight the relations between yourselves: Obey Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe' (8:1). Did Jesus engage in battle with his enemies, and acquire the booty of war? Jesus was not like Muhammad, in that Muhammad was also a military leader, who led his people to victory in battle.
Thus, the title of 'Messenger of Allah' is reserved for him to whom the Quran was revealed. If we assume that 'Messenger of Allah' refers to the Messenger Jesus, we could also conclude that the title could be referring to other Messengers of God, such as Abraham or Noah. When referring to Christ, God speaks of 'Jesus', or 'Jesus, son of Mary'.

You have very deceitfully added Muhammed to the above verse. Are you claiming that Muhammad was without sin (did not err)? If we look at that passage honestly, it becomes self-evident it is referring to Christ..
I did not add the parentheses. This is a part of the Sahih International translation, although it is not the practice of this translation alone, but of several other authoritative translations too. I accept that you hold Yusuf Ali's translation to be best.

Yes, Muhammad was without sin and conveyed the message of God perfectly and without flaw, but he was, as all mortals are, subject to human error. As were David, Solomon, Jacob, whom the Bible alleges committed heinous misdeeds, such as adultery and murder.
 






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And what evidence is there that any of this actually happened? Better yet, where does it tell us in the Koran (Quran) that this is what actually happened, or prophesy it would happen in the future? Surely if Mohammad (peace be upon him) was meant to be the central figure of yet another, organized religion, it would tell us that in the Koran, would it not?
You say that the Quran does not state that Muhammad is to be the central figure of a new organised religion. This is a misleading statement.

(1) Islam is not a new religion. It is in fact, the same message revealed to all Prophets and Messengers prior to Muhammad. Its purpose it to call people back to the worship of the Lord of Abraham, the Lord of Moses, and the Lord of Jesus. Muhammad was not sent to establish a new religion, but to call his errant, pantheistic people, and all of mankind in fact, back to this original religion.

(2) Several Quran verses contradict your statement:
  • It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion: and enough is Allah for a Witness. (48:28)
  • If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good). (3:85)
  • When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims. (3:52)
  • It is He Who hath sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it). (9:33)
  • If Allah so willed, He could make you all one people: But He leaves straying whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases: but ye shall certainly be called to account for all your actions. (16:93)
  • Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah. (3:67)
Further, WHERE DOES IT TELL US IN THE KORAN THAT MOHAMMAD WAS A PROPHET, i.e. someone who PROPHESIES?

THE KORAN CONTAINS NO NEW PROPHECIES, but was sent down as a WARNING to all who are “true in faith” to CONFIRM The Law (Torah, Books of Moses, found only in the Old Covenant) and the Gospel of Jesus (found only in the New Covenant) that came before it, as it says repeatedly throughout the Koran.
You claim that Muhammad did not prophesy. This is patently false. The Quran addresses him as Prophet: ‘Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things’ (33:40).

The claim that the Quran does not contain any new prophecy is also false. There are several, some of which I will list here:
  • 'The Roman Empire has been defeated- In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious- Within a few years. With Allah is the Decision, in the past and in the Future: on that Day shall the Believers rejoice-' (30:2-4). The Roman empire, led by Heraclius (d. 641) was defeated by the Persians in 617 or 619. However, astonishingly, in the midst of the Roman defeat, the Quran made the prediction that, within 10 years, the Romans would be victorious, and this prophecy was fulfilled in 627 when Heraclius defeated the Persians at the Battle of Nineveh.
  • 'Are your Unbelievers, (O Quraish), better than they? Or have ye an immunity in the Sacred Books? Or do they say: "We acting together can defend ourselves"? Soon will their multitude be put to flight, and they will show their backs' (54:43-45). In the midst of the persecution of the Muslims by the Makkan pagans, the Quran predicted that the Muslims would triumph over them. This prophecy was fulfilled in the Battle of Badr, when the Muslims achieved a supreme victory over the Makkans, two years after their emigration to Madinah.
  • 'We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption) (15:9)' The Quran affirms that it will be preserved. This statement is fulfilled in that the Quran that was revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) is the same Quran that we have today.
  • Additionally, the Prophet prophesied many matters related to eschatology that are detailed in hadith, such as the moral degradation that will appear in the end times, the building of tall skyscrapers by the bedouin Arabs, war and famine, the coming of the antichrist, the second coming of Jesus Christ, etc.
Mohammad (peace be upon him) was visited by Gabriel in a cave on Mt. Hira in 610 A.D. at age 40. Mohammad, who could neither read nor write, dictated the vision he was given to those who were with him, so everything could be written down. Mohammad then had them read it back to him, to check for mistakes.

Those writings were then compiled c. 650 A.D., under Caliph Uthman bin Affan, who had all other remaining transcripts destroyed. This could explain the alterations made to the Koran.

As above please. The Koran was written down as it was given to Mohammad. Did some people memorize it? Apparently so. Was that the sole method of its transmission? NO. Does the Koran tell us that the "oral traditions of men" will be later handed down in such a manner or that they should be heeded? NO.
Where did you find this information? I put to you, that you will not find this information in any other source except hadeeth. If you do not accept the fact that the hadeeth have detailed the preservation of the Quran (the process of dictation, memorisation, collation, verification) because you do not accept them as legitimate sources of evidence, you will no longer be able to explain how the Quran was preserved, and in this way, your rejection of these hadeeth will bring into question the very matter of the preservation of the Quran itself. It is only in the hadeeth that you will find the description of Muhammad (pbuh) dictating the Quran to his scribes (who used animal bones, silk, leather and bark as parchment), whe recited it back to him to check for errors; the mass memorisation of the Quran by the Prophet and companions; the assembling of the written Quran in the time of Abu Bakr; the making of copies of the original, and the destruction of incorrect manuscripts by Uthman.

The written record of the Quran was not the only way in which the Quran was preserved. The illiteracy of the masses did not matter in relation to preservation of the Quran, because many from among them comitted all of it, or part of it, to memory. Both the memorisation and written record of the Quran represented a dual mechanism by which the Quran was preserved, and prevented corruption, of even a single letter.

Where did Allah say ANY of that in the Old Covenant, New Covenant and/or in the Koran? So-called “Islamic law” is CONDEMNED as TREASON against Allah by Allah Himself, in HIS LAW (Deut. 4:2, 12:8, 12:32), found only in the first five books of the Bible, namely Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.
This is mentioned here in 9:100:
The vanguard (of Islam)- the first of those who forsook (their homes) and of those who gave them aid, and (also) those who follow them in (all) good deeds,- well-pleased is Allah with them, as are they with Him: for them hath He prepared gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein for ever: that is the supreme felicity.

You will find that the Arabic in the Quranic text for 'those who forsook (their homes)' is 'muhajireen', referring to the Muslims who emigrated from Makkah to Madinah to evade persecution and torture, and that the Arabic for 'those who have them aid' is 'ansaar', translated as 'the helpers', i.e. those who selflessly offered to share their homes and possessions with the muhajireen/emigrants when they came to Madinah. The verse says 'well-pleased is Allah with them, as are they with Him: for them hath He prepared gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein for ever'. These muhajireen/emigrants, and ansaar/the helpers, are those who are normatively called the companions of the Prophet (pbuh). It is this group, the established community of believers of which Muhammad (pbuh) was the leader, who are responsible for keeping written records of hadeeth, and aided the transcription of the Quran into written form (Zayd ibn Thabit, the Prophet's foremost transcriber of the Quran, was from this community of the ansaar/helpers). It is Zayd, an expert on the Quran, who is largely responsible for the process of its collection. To cast doubt on the companions of the Prophet is to, thereby, cast doubt on the Quran, and by extension, the Sunnah.
 






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A Freeman

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Thank-you for your replies @pescatarian09, but there isn't a shred of truth in either of them (other than the citations from the Koran, which you've obviously misinterpreted). It's amazing that someone so vehemently defends an organized religion that they claim doesn't exist, despite 2 billion people blindly practicing it. Your "self" repeatedly making the false claim that "Islam" isn't an organized religion does not make that statement true.

You have observed many such discussions with so-called Christians about their pagan rites and rituals, including the 3=1 idol that -- IN TRUTH -- is found NOWHERE in the Old Covenant or New Covenant, either by direct or indirect reference. And yet you don't realize you're doing exactly the same thing, trying to defend UNTENABLE core tenets of the organized religion referred to as "Islam" that are found NOWHERE in the Koran (Quran), while ignoring what it actually says in the Koran CONDEMNING those very practices and the people who teach them.

Please, for your benefit and for the benefit of others, get rid of your ego and its preconceived notions, which includes viewing me as the enemy. The Message that is personally being brought here directly from the "I AM" and HIS ANOINTED/GUIDED ONE is very, very simple: OBEY the "I AM" (THE GOD) ONLY.

It is your ego (the "self"), which you have been COMMANDED to crucify DAILY, that blinds you to the TRUTH that even after all of that talk, and by your own admission, there is not one single verse from the Koran that prophesies any "oral traditions", nor instructs anyone to read and/or follow them. The meaning from that couldn't be a clearer sign: THE HADITH IS NOT FROM GOD.

Since the "I AM" sent us His PERFECT Law of Liberty 3500 years ago -- to protect us from evil and to set and keep us free -- He has NEVER sent any "oral traditions". It is Lucifer/Satan/Iblis who has conned men into making up such things, to keep them AWAY from the "I AM" and His PERFECT Law, making the Commandments of God of no effect.

Similarly, and as yet another clear sign, after all of that talk, there is not one single verse from the Koran that instructs so-called Muslims/Moslems to pray five times a day, and/or compels them to make a public spectacle of it. It is the "self" which we have all been COMMANDED to destroy/crucify DAILY that has every so-called Muslim doing the exact opposite of what the "I AM" has COMMANDED us to do in His PERFECT Law.

Please see what the Message from the "I AM" (THE God) that The Anointed One/Guided One (Prince Michael - The Messiah/Christ/Mahdi) gave us directly, and then through Paul and then through Gabriel to Mohammad, about the "self":

Matthew 10:37-38
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter (or anyone or anything) more than me is not worthy of me.
10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth Him that sent me.
10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.


Mark 8:34-35
8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny his "Self", and take up his cross, and follow me.
8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.


Luke 9:23-27
9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?


Luke 14:26-27
14:26 If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own (human) life also, he can NOT be my disciple.
14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, can NOT be my disciple.


Galatians 2:20 My "Self" is crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I (the "Self"), but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Sura 6:162. Say: "Truly, my prayer and my (daily) service of "Self" sacrifice (Luke 9:23; 14:26-27), my life (of selflessness) and my death (to "Self"), are (all) for "I AM", the Cherisher of the Worlds:

Get rid of the "self" and you will see the obvious truth that there isn't one single shred of evidence that the Hadith wasn't made up. In fact, there is IRREFUTABLE evidence that it was. The entire basis for the evil organized religion known as "Islam" is the Hadith, aka the "oral traditions" that were ALLEGEDLY handed down over a period of roughly 250 years. Without the Hadith, those who read and FOLLOW the Koran would be reading and FOLLOWING what it says in The Law and the Gospel, and thus be FOLLOWING The Anointed/Guided One: The Messiah/Christ/Mahdi.

Unless someone does exactly that -- obeying ALL of the Messages the "I AM" has sent and The Example His Anointed One/Guided One has set -- they cannot be a REAL Muslim.

Peace be upon you.
 






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A Freeman

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From: The Way home or face The Fire (Rev. 10:7-10, Rev. 2:17):-

CHAPTER 10

Mohammed and the birth of Islam as yet another religion.

10:1 Once God had seen what Satan had done to Jesus’ teachings, with the birth of christianity, and its spreading and establishing, and the success that Satan was having, with yet another organized-religion, He decided to try, yet-again, to put people back on the right track.
10:2 After 600 years of so-called christianity developing, and people ignoring Jesus’ Message, God gave enlightenment to Mohammed, little by little, to try to pull the people away from organized-religions, and back to direct-contact with Himself.
10:3 He chose the Arabs, because they were neither Jewish nor Christian, and the pagan-Arabs already worshipped the Morning Star (Al-Uzzah) as a divinity, and hopefully it would be easy to convert them from worshipping the star itself (Sura 53:49), to worshipping its King.
10:4 Also, the Arabs were nomadic-traders, with caravans that travelled extensively, and could thereby spread the word of God, far and wide.
10:5 Mohammed was around 40 years old when God called him, and, like all the other Prophets, was not a religious man; he just talked to God and did God’s Will, and, like all the other Prophets, he was a “child of God”, by adoption.
10:6 Mohammed was not religious; he was just a believer, who strived himself, and taught the striving, to do God’s Will.
10:7 God explained, through the Koran, that Abraham had not been religious, just a believer, like Mohammed. Both Abraham and Mohammed, like Jesus, were, and fought, against organized-religions, and were both just “children of God” (adopted).
10:8 Unless you are “born again” in the spirit, and become like “little children”, you can NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven (John 3:3-13 & Matt. 18:3-4).
10:9 God gave some clearer explanations, of the creation of human animals (Adam and Eve), and Satan’s angels (Jinns) submitting themselves, to being reprogrammed, and being locked-inside of human-animals – bow down to Adams and Eves (Sura 7:11 & 15:31). It tells you that everyone, except Iblis (Lucifer/Satan), agreed to bow down to Adams and Eves.
10:10 Mohammed passed-on God’s Messages, to his students, who wrote them down, without understanding them, and no-one, since then, has really understood them, until I have come again now, to enlighten the WHOLE world, with THIS Book, as I promised that I would (Mark 13:10 & Luke 17:24).
10:11 God also explained that He had told Abraham, where Heaven is (Sura 6:76), and He told Mohammed too, but Mohammed did not understand either (Sura 52:49 - Evening and Morning Star; Sura 53:1 & 86:1), so the Lord told Mohammed, even more clearly, and also told him that He is Lord of Sirius, and of the seven heavens, and of the worlds (Sura 53:49 & 23:86 & 86:1-4), but he still did not understand.
10:12 The Lord told Mohammed exactly the same as Jesus had taught, which is NOT to worship Jesus, or Mohammed, or any other Prophet or Angel, and to worship ONLY God (Sura 3:79)(Mark 10:18 & Matt. 5:48), and NOT to be priests (Sura 57:27 & Sura 4:152)(Matt. 5:19 & 23:8).
10:13 God told Mohammed, that organized-religion is wrong, and that the dividing into sects was wrong (and always will be) (Sura 2:62 & 2:112), and that ALL people, from ALL over the world, from WHATEVER nation, colour or creed, who REALLY believe God, and KEEP His COMMANDMENTS, AND COVENANT (Sura 5:8-16, 73 & 6:152 & 8:58 & 16:91, 95), and DO His Will, shall be saved from “The Fire” on the Last-Day (Sura 2:62 & 42:13)(Matt. 12:50 - and the twelve tribes of Israel is not meant only literally, it refers literally and metaphorically, to all the “children of God”, who are grafted into the 12 Tribes of Israel).
10:14 The word “Israelite” means “champion of God” - “THOSE WHO DO GOD’S WILL”. It does NOT refer to the Israeli nation of today, or the Jews, it refers to “THOSE WHO DO GOD’S WILL”, i.e. the “children of God.” Anyone who DOES God’s Will, (champions His Cause) not his own, is a “child of God” by adoption, or, “Israelite” (in Hebrew).
10:15 By telling Mohammed, that Abraham had been a “child of God”, and that Jesus was a “child of God”, and that Mohammed must be a “child of God”, He was trying to get the Arabs to unite the world, into one brotherhood (Sura 2:62 & 42:13 & 49:10), and to destroy ALL organized-religions, and divisions (amongst believers), and to unite EVERYONE into one brotherhood. ALL of whom must talk directly, individually and in PRIVATE, to God, and DO God’s Will.
10:16 God said you MUST read and believe “ALL” the messages from God, and NOT just the PART that YOU think you have been sent (Sura 2:91 & 42:15). That included Mohammed (and ALL Moslems); so ALL believers MUST read the Book (Torah/Old COVENANT), the Gospel (New COVENANT), the Koran (Sura 42:15), and this Book (The Way home or face The Fire)(Sura 16:101-104 & Sura 4:136).
10:17 God enlightened Mohammed, and he taught exactly the same teachings as Jesus, with one exception, i.e. “I am The Way”, because Mohammed was not The Way. Mohammed was just a messenger, and not THE example to follow, just as all the other Prophets had only been messengers, and none were resurrected from the dead, or would come again.
10:18 ALL the Prophets, except Jesus and Elijah, were your fellow prisoners, who received messages and enlightenment. Many of the Prophets wrote down God’s messages, without understanding them (Dan. 12:8 & Isaiah 29:11), or at least some of God’s messages, and this includes Mohammed.
10:19 Mohammed was told about re-incarnation, when God said that the souls had had many chances, “if only they had known” (Sura 23:99, 114 & 2:154), and also that parents are NOT the parents of your soul, and that ANYONE who loves father or mother, son or daughter, more than God, is not WORTHY of God (Sura 4:135 & 9:23-24 & 58:22, just like in Matt. 10:34-40).
10:20 God told Mohammed that the Earth is a prison, for those who reject faith in, and love for, God (Sura 17:8 & 83:7), and that souls MUST STRIVE for their salvation, and their right to go home (Sura 29:6).
10:21 The Lord told him, that, on the Last-Day, the human-animals, that had been used by the souls, would be witnesses for, or against, the souls that had used them, depending on whether they had been used for good (God), or for evil (devil)(Sura 41:20-22).
10:22 On the Last-Day, everyone shall be known by his mark (Sura 7:46), just as in John’s Revelation 14:9-11, and shall be judged according to his mark. Those who wear the mark of God, in their foreheads, i.e. communicating telepathically with Him, keeping the COMMANDMENTS, and also DOING His Will - blind faith and using the eyes of their soul (3rd. eye), and “The Force” – shall survive, and those who wear the mark of Satan, in their hands, i.e. money and worldly treasures, shall die in “The Fire”.
10:23 Mohammed taught exactly the same as Jesus. God’s message has ALWAYS been the same, and always will be, just as God has ALWAYS been and ALWAYS will be the same (Alpha and Omega – the beginning and the end), and ALL the Prophets have said the same thing.
10:24 God gave enlightenment to Mohammed, about Jesus, “the son of Mary”, but Mohammed did not understand what God was telling him. God told Mohammed, that, “the son of Mary”, was not His Son, which is perfectly true, just as I am not the son of my present mother. My present mother’s body made the body, that I am using this time, but she did NOT make me.
10:25 My soul, which is the REAL me, came down from heaven, just like the last time, 2000 years ago. God’s Son is Prince Michael (the ARCH-ANGEL) - Christ; was Jesus (Christ) The Nazarite; is ME, who was the spirit/soul locked-inside “the son of Mary”, which was a human-animal, created by Mary’s body, with a little help from my Father (the Immaculate Conception). I used the “son of Mary”, so that people could see and hear me, so I could give the demonstration of how YOU have to be, before you can go home, just as I am now using this body, for the same reason. I controlled “the son of Mary” and used him, from within, for the benefit of everyone, which is what you all HAVE TO DO, with the animal bodies that YOU are using.
10:26 God said (in the Koran) that the MAN Jesus (human body NOT the soul) was not His Son (because God is not a human, and therefore can not have a human-son), not the spirit/soul within the man. God told a great many people, on various occasions, in the New Testament, that Christ, the spirit within the hu-MAN-animal, was “His beloved Son, in whom He was, and still is, well pleased,” and God NEVER lies (Matt. 3:17 & 17:5 & Mark 1:11 & 9:7 & Luke 3:22 & 9:35)(Sura 4:171).
10:27 Christ did not die on the cross, the human-animal-body being used, called Jesus the Nazarite, the “son of Mary”, died (Sura 4:157).

YOU ARE NOT HUMAN !!!

10:28 There are two possibilities, about the mis-understanding, concerning Jesus, because Mohammed could neither read nor write, and he did NOT write the Koran, or read it to check that it was correct, because he was NOT ABLE TO.
10:29 The first possibility, is that Mohammed himself did not understand what God was telling him, because Mohammed was a simple and un-educated man, but was kind, honest and humble.
10:30 The second possibility, is that Mohammed did understand what God was telling him (which is unlikely with the world’s level of mentality at that time), but that his students did not understand, and wrote his message down incorrectly, and Mohammed, not being able to read, did not know.
10:31 In any case, the Koran was compiled and published after Mohammed’s death, and it is possible, that Mohammed half-understood, and that his students worshipping him, instead of God; in direct disobedience of God’s and Mohammed’s teaching; did the rest; probably under instructions from Caliph Omar; to try to make Mohammed more important than Jesus. So now the Moslems do not follow Jesus’ example, as the Koran says they should do (Sura 4:159).
10:32 The Devil’s telepathic voice (enemy-within), within the heads of Mohammed or his students (see chapter 3), deceived them, and managed to twist this message perfectly, and Satan has exploited this point, with great success, for hundreds of years. It has been one of his most efficient tricks, so far, and has kept people fighting, and killing each other, ever since (in God’s name?). Just HOW STUPID can people be? They all worship the same God (Who COMMANDS them NOT to murder), and are murdering each other for Satan, and are using and abusing God’s name to do it.
10:33 I really find it hard, to believe that people can be THAT stupid, but I know, for a fact, that they are.
10:34 The problem, that the Moslems have, is that, because Satan has tricked them into worshipping Mohammed, and believing that he is the ONLY Prophet of real value, they have no direction, nor the example, to follow, and they have been running in circles, ever since.
10:35 Jesus and Mohammed BOTH taught the DOING of God’s Will, but; without having the example to follow; the Moslems do not know which way is forwards, and Jesus; whom they will not accept; is THE example - “I AM The Way (home)” - that EVERYONE on Earth MUST follow, whilst DOING God’s Will, in learning SELF-sacrifice, and becoming unselfish (Sura 4:159).
10:36 Mohammed and Jesus BOTH preached the same message, which is: that ALL organized-religion is EVIL, and that you MUST do God’s Will, NOT your own, and that you MUST talk to God DIRECTLY; INDIVIDUALLY; PRIVATELY and CONSTANTLY (Matt. 6:6)(Sura 7:55).
10:37 If Christ is not the Son of God - the spirit, not the man – then why is Christ coming again, and not Mohammed, or any of the other Prophets? (Sura 43:61).
10:38 The Moslems worship Mohammed, which is totally against the Koran and Mohammed’s teachings (Sura 3:79), even though they deny it.
10:39 The Moslems’ belief in Mohammed and the HADITH, instead of God’s Truth, in His Koran, is totally illogical, as is their belief that Mohammed is more important than God’s Son. It is illogical, because; if it were true; then surely God would send Mohammed again, instead of which, He is sending Christ, AS IT SAYS IN THE KORAN (Sura 43:61). The Koran also says that Christ will come WITHOUT RELIGION (to destroy organized-religions, and the FALSE doctrines that abuse His name).
10:40 Just like the last time, God could not entrust such an important mission to just anyone, or to an enlightened prisoner (Prophet). He would only give the mission to His eldest Son, whom He can trust completely, i.e. Prince Michael/Christ (Michael the Archangel).
10:41 God Himself, through the Koran, has said that Christ will come again, JUST BEFORE the Last-Day, as a last warning of the doom that IS COMING (Sura 43:61 & 52:1-16).
10:42 In the same way that Satan turned Jesus’ teachings into a religion, and called it Christianity, he turned Mohammed’s teachings into yet another religion, and called it Islam.
10:43 Islam, as an organized-religion, is against the teachings of the Koran.
10:44 The Arabic word islam means “absolute submission to the Will of God,” which is wrong, because God does not want souls to SUBMIT to His Will; He wants them to WANT to do His Will, joyfully, and to keep asking Him, ALL the time, to tell them what He wants them to do next.
10:45 However, the word islam, which means DOING God’s Will, has now become just the name, of yet another organized-religion, instead of saying what YOU should do.
10:46 God initially helped Abraham and his line, to win battles, in order to spread His Word. Later-on, He helped the Romans to conquer the known world, in preparation for the spreading of Christ’s teachings. God made Paul (Saul) blind, and then gave him back his sight, and made him His most efficient and widest-travelling messenger.
10:47 Similarly, God helped the followers of His teachings, in the Koran (Arabs), to conquer many countries; most of which had become Roman Catholic; to spread the word and counteract the spread of Roman Catholicism, with its idolatry, blasphemy and other evils.
10:48 Unfortunately, the word islam has LOST ITS MEANING, and has just become the name, of yet another evil, organized-RELIGION!
 






Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
1,053
Thank-you for your replies @pescatarian09, but there isn't a shred of truth in either of them (other than the citations from the Koran, which you've obviously misinterpreted). It's amazing that someone so vehemently defends an organized religion that they claim doesn't exist, despite 2 billion people blindly practicing it. Your "self" repeatedly making the false claim that "Islam" isn't an organized religion does not make that statement true.

You have observed many such discussions with so-called Christians about their pagan rites and rituals, including the 3=1 idol that -- IN TRUTH -- is found NOWHERE in the Old Covenant or New Covenant, either by direct or indirect reference. And yet you don't realize you're doing exactly the same thing, trying to defend UNTENABLE core tenets of the organized religion referred to as "Islam" that are found NOWHERE in the Koran (Quran), while ignoring what it actually says in the Koran CONDEMNING those very practices and the people who teach them.

Please, for your benefit and for the benefit of others, get rid of your ego and its preconceived notions, which includes viewing me as the enemy. The Message that is personally being brought here directly from the "I AM" and HIS ANOINTED/GUIDED ONE is very, very simple: OBEY the "I AM" (THE GOD) ONLY.

It is your ego (the "self"), which you have been COMMANDED to crucify DAILY, that blinds you to the TRUTH that even after all of that talk, and by your own admission, there is not one single verse from the Koran that prophesies any "oral traditions", nor instructs anyone to read and/or follow them. The meaning from that couldn't be a clearer sign: THE HADITH IS NOT FROM GOD.

Since the "I AM" sent us His PERFECT Law of Liberty 3500 years ago -- to protect us from evil and to set and keep us free -- He has NEVER sent any "oral traditions". It is Lucifer/Satan/Iblis who has conned men into making up such things, to keep them AWAY from the "I AM" and His PERFECT Law, making the Commandments of God of no effect.

Similarly, and as yet another clear sign, after all of that talk, there is not one single verse from the Koran that instructs so-called Muslims/Moslems to pray five times a day, and/or compels them to make a public spectacle of it. It is the "self" which we have all been COMMANDED to destroy/crucify DAILY that has every so-called Muslim doing the exact opposite of what the "I AM" has COMMANDED us to do in His PERFECT Law.

Please see what the Message from the "I AM" (THE God) that The Anointed One/Guided One (Prince Michael - The Messiah/Christ/Mahdi) gave us directly, and then through Paul and then through Gabriel to Mohammad, about the "self":

Matthew 10:37-38
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter (or anyone or anything) more than me is not worthy of me.
10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth Him that sent me.
10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.


Mark 8:34-35
8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny his "Self", and take up his cross, and follow me.
8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.


Luke 9:23-27
9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?


Luke 14:26-27
14:26 If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own (human) life also, he can NOT be my disciple.
14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, can NOT be my disciple.


Galatians 2:20 My "Self" is crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I (the "Self"), but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Sura 6:162. Say: "Truly, my prayer and my (daily) service of "Self" sacrifice (Luke 9:23; 14:26-27), my life (of selflessness) and my death (to "Self"), are (all) for "I AM", the Cherisher of the Worlds:

Get rid of the "self" and you will see the obvious truth that there isn't one single shred of evidence that the Hadith wasn't made up. In fact, there is IRREFUTABLE evidence that it was. The entire basis for the evil organized religion known as "Islam" is the Hadith, aka the "oral traditions" that were ALLEGEDLY handed down over a period of roughly 250 years. Without the Hadith, those who read and FOLLOW the Koran would be reading and FOLLOWING what it says in The Law and the Gospel, and thus be FOLLOWING The Anointed/Guided One: The Messiah/Christ/Mahdi.

Unless someone does exactly that -- obeying ALL of the Messages the "I AM" has sent and The Example His Anointed One/Guided One has set -- they cannot be a REAL Muslim.

Peace be upon you.
You have dismissed my arguments, without bringing forth any evidence to the contrary, and without demonstrating how or why I am wrong. Instead your response is replete with ad hominems. If I have incorrectly interpreted these verses, or made a fallacious/historically inaccurate claim, please show me where I have gone wrong. If you fail to provide your evidence, you have no basis upon which to dismiss my argument, nor will you have any grounds upon which to maintain your position. Surely if I wrong, it would be very easy for you to refute my claims? Yet, you have not even attempted to do so.
 






A Freeman

Star
Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
1,890
You have dismissed my arguments, without bringing forth any evidence to the contrary, and without demonstrating how or why I am wrong. Instead your response is replete with ad hominems.
Actually, the exact opposite is true, as you have done to me what you are accusing me of doing to you. The evidence that has been presented to you directly from the Koran, and the Bible that the Koran was sent to CONFIRM, utterly refutes all of the so-called evidence that you've presented which is, in fact, a circular argument.

The word "Islam" is not, and NEVER was intended to be an organized religion. But that is exactly what so-called Muslims have made of it, with all of their made-up rites and rituals that are NOT found in the Koran. The term "Islam" has therefore lost its meaning, because doing the exact opposite of what God COMMANDS is NOT "submission to God".

You make the preposterous claim on the one hand that "Islam" isn't an organized religion (despite the fact there are almost 2 billion adherents to this allegedly non-existent organized religion), while on the other hand assuming "submission to God" is to directly disobey Him by making up yet another evil, organized religion.

You have yet to provide one single verse where Father (Allah, the "I AM") instructs us to pray 5 times a day. In return, you've been provided at least 40 verses which tell us to ESTABLISH CONSTANT PRAYER. And you have the audacity to accuse me of ignoring your "evidence"?

You have yet to provide one single verse where Father (Allah, the "I AM") prophesies the Sunnah/Hadith or instructs us to read it. In return you've been provided directly from The Law Allah gave us that the Sunnah/Hadith is prohibited by pain of death. Don't you find it extremely odd that Christ is referred to at least 230 times throughout the Koran, which tells us at least 30 times that we MUST read The Law and the Gospel -- and to NOT BE IN DOUBT OF IT REACHING US -- while at the same time only mentioning Mohammad (peace be upon him) 4 times?

If it was Allah's will to elevate Mohammad, and make the ALLEGED words of Mohammad more important than Allah's Word, wouldn't Allah have told us that in His Koran? And wouldn't that same message need to be found in the Bible, which Allah sent down BEFORE the Koran, given the Koran was sent to CONFIRM what is in the Bible?

Let's look at one of your examples of "evidence" in context: Sura 9:100, which you claim is proof that Allah was pleased with the "Companions" of Mohammad (peace be upon him) who allegedly committed to memory the things that Mohammad said, which they then allegedly passed down for over 2 centuries, before someone then spent 16 years writing down whatever these "trustworthy" individuals allegedly said.

Your claim makes the following unproven assumptions:

1) that Allah's Messenger (His Messenger) is referring to Mohammad;
2) that the "vanguard" are the Companions referred to elsewhere; and
3) that the "Companions" are the Companions of Mohammad.

However, if we look at that verse in context, we can very clearly see that ALL of the references to His (Allah's) Messenger are, in fact, to Prince Michael, the Anointed One (The Messiah/Christ/Mahdi).

Sura 9:94-111
9:94. They will present their excuses to you when ye return to them. Say thou: "Present no excuses: we shall not believe you: "I AM" hath already informed us of the true state of matters concerning you: it is your actions that "I AM" and His Messenger will observe (Matt. 7:16-20): in the end will ye be brought back to Him Who knoweth what is hidden and what is open: then will He show you the truth of all that ye did."
9:95. They will swear to you by "I AM", when ye return to them, that ye may leave them alone. So leave them alone: for they are an abomination, and Hell-Fire is their dwelling-place,- a fitting recompense for the (evil) that they did.
9:96. They will swear unto you, that ye may be pleased with them but if ye are pleased with them, "I AM" is not pleased with those who disobey.
9:97. The Arabs of the desert are the worst in Unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which "I AM" hath sent down to His Messenger: but "I AM" is All-Knowing, All-Wise.
9:98. Some of the desert Arabs look upon their payments as a fine, and watch for disasters for you: on them be the disaster of evil: for "I AM" is He that heareth and knoweth (all things).
9:99. But some of the desert Arabs believe "I AM" and in The Last Day, and look on their payments as pious gifts bringing them nearer to "I AM" and obtaining the prayers of the Messenger. Aye, indeed they bring them nearer (to Him): soon will "I AM" admit them to His Mercy: for "I AM" is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
9:100. The vanguard- the first of those who forsook (their homes) and of those who gave them aid, and (also) those who follow them in (all) good deeds,- well-pleased is "I AM" with them (Matt. 3:17, Luke 5:11, John 14:23-24), as are they with Him: for them hath He prepared Gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein for ever: that is the supreme joy.
9:101. Certain of the desert Arabs round about you are hypocrites, as well as (desert Arabs) among the Medina folk: they are obstinate in hypocrisy: thou knowest them not: We know them: twice shall We punish them: and in addition shall they be sent to a grievous Penalty.
9:102. Others (there are who) have acknowledged their wrong-doings: they have mixed an act that was good with another that was evil. Perhaps "I AM" will turn unto them (in Mercy): for "I AM" is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
9:103. Of their goods, take alms, that so thou mightest purify and sanctify them; and pray on their behalf. Verily thy prayers are a source of security for them: and "I AM" is One Who heareth and knoweth.
9:104. Know they not that "I AM" doth accept repentance from His votaries and receives their gifts of charity, and that "I AM" is verily He, the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful?
9:105. And say: "Work (righteousness): soon will "I AM" observe your work, and His Messenger, and the Believers: soon will ye be brought back to the Knower of what is hidden and what is open: then will He show you the truth of all that ye did."
9:106. There are (yet) others, held in suspense for the command of "I AM", whether He will punish them, or turn in mercy to them: and "I AM" is All-Knowing, Wise.
9:107. And there are those who put up mosques (churches; synagogues; etc.), by way of mischief and BETRAYAL - to disunite the Believers - and in preparation for one who warred against "I AM" (Revelation 12:7) and His Messenger aforetime*. They will indeed swear that their intention is nothing but good; but "I AM" doth declare that they are certainly LIARS.
9:108. NEVER stand thou forth therein. There is an Holy Place (Mt. Moriah) whose foundation was laid from the first day on piety; it is more worthy of the standing forth (for prayer) therein. In it are men who love to be purified; and "I AM" loveth those who make themselves pure.
9:109. Which then is best? - he that layeth his foundation on piety (a Rock - Matthew 7:24-27) to "I AM" and His Good Pleasure? - or he that layeth his foundation on an undermined sand-cliff ready to crumble to pieces? And it doth crumble to pieces with him, into The Fire of Hell. And "I AM" guideth not people that do wrong (if they are doing wrong Satan is guiding them).
9:110. The foundation of those who so build is never free from suspicion and shakiness in their hearts, until their hearts are cut to pieces. And "I AM" is All-Knowing, Wise.
9:111. "I AM" hath purchased from the Believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is The Garden (of Bliss): they fight in His Cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in Truth, through The Law (The Torah), The Gospel (New Testament/Covenant), and The Koran: and who is more faithful to His Covenant (in the Bible) than "I AM"? Then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded (to fulfill The Covenant of "I AM" written in the Bible): that is the achievement supreme.

*Note well: who warred against Allah and His Messenger (Sura 9:107 above)? Lucifer/Satan/Iblis. And Who is Allah's Messenger? PRINCE MICHAEL/CHRIST.

Revelation 12:7-9
12:7 And there WAS war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon (Lucifer); and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out to the Earth, and his angels (you - Luke 9:55) were cast out with him (Matthew 25:41).

This is why it says the following in the Koran about Prince Michael/Christ:

Sura 2:97-99
2:97. Say: "Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel - for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by God's Will, a CONFIRMATION of what went BEFORE, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe,-
2:98. Whoever is an enemy to God and His angels and Apostles, to Gabriel AND Michael (Daniel 12:1; Rev. 12:7),- Lo! God is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
2:99. We have sent down to thee manifest Signs and none reject them but those who are perverse.

It is absolutely perverse for anyone to claim to be submitting to God's Will while directly disobeying God, rejecting Prince Michael/Christ is Allah's Messenger and disregarding God's Law.

Please also note well that the we have been COMMANDED not to build churches, temples, mosques, and synagogues, etc. and to NEVER stand forth therein. So how can someone be submitting to God's Will while doing the exact opposite?

If I have incorrectly interpreted these verses, or made a fallacious/historically inaccurate claim, please show me where I have gone wrong.
You've already been provided the answers with hundreds of verses from both the Bible and Koran which prove you to be in error. And thus far you've ignored all of it. Will you ignore this reply too?

If you fail to provide your evidence, you have no basis upon which to dismiss my argument, nor will you have any grounds upon which to maintain your position. Surely if I wrong, it would be very easy for you to refute my claims? Yet, you have not even attempted to do so.
You have been presented PROOF directly from our Creator in His Old Covenant, New Covenant and Koran that you are in error. Why are you now pretending otherwise? Your dishonesty is astonishing.

Learn to destroy your ego or it will destroy you (the real you, the spirit-Being within).

Peace be upon you.
 






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Kung Fu

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Joined
Mar 24, 2017
Messages
5,165
Good question. There are verses I can quote but I will instead show you from another angle.

When the Prophet salAllahu 'alaiyhi wasallam was alive then he taught his companions certian affairs. Any Muslim agrees that the Prophet salAllahu 'alaiyhi wasallam in his lifetime should be obeyed. When he taught the Companions certain affairs, for example how to recite the Qur'aan, how to pray, the specifications of certain punisments etc, then they followed him salAllahu 'alaiyhi wasallam. Now when the Prophet salAllahu 'alaiyhi wasallam died his Companions taught this to those who never met him. Are you saying it was wrong for them to teach what they learned? If so, why? The Companions who lived in different areas would accept narrations(hadeeth) from other companions even though they did not hear it themselves. Allah said "if a fasiq comes to you with news verify it". This means if a trustworthy person comes we accept it. The Companions were trustworthy because Allah said "he is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him". Those students of the companions likewise taught their students. Most hadeeths have around 3 to 5 narrators. If those indiviudals are trustworthy and known to be of those with strong memory etc, then we take what they report. Islam has a very detailed system for preserving these narrations unlike the Judaic system that has no way of identifying if narrators are trustworthy or not. Allah preserved the Sunnah as He preserved the Qur'aan. How was the Qur'aan passed down? Through the isnaad (chain of transmission). So if your going to reject the Sunnah because you say its like Chinese whispers or whatever other argument you may have then, cool. you should likewise reject the Qur'aan as it was transmitted in the same way! Sufyan ath-Thawri said "if it wasn't for the isnaad anyone could say as they want". Whoever rejects the Sunnah is a kaafir, period. Allahu yahdeek.
Is that really true though? Don't get me wrong when it comes to Islam and how it should be practiced the Sunnah is great because those hadiths had rigorous standards placed on them but hadiths that have nothing to do with the Quran or our salvation most likely didn't go through the same rigorous verifications. I think when it comes to hadiths we should take a balanced approach and always try to anchor it to the Quran.

Peace be upon you.
 






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