What does the Koran actually say about prayer?

A Freeman

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About The Way that is Straight...

Matthew 7:13-14
7:13 Enter ye in at the "Strait" gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
7:14 Because Strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] The Way, which leadeth unto Life, and few there be that find it.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am The Way, the Truth, and the Life: NOT one man cometh unto the Father, EXCEPT by me.

Sura 46:30. They said, "O our people! We have heard a Book revealed AFTER Moses, CONFIRMING what came before it (Matt. 5:17-20): IT guides (men) to the Truth and to The Straight Way (John 14:6).

See: Suras 1:6-7, 2:142, 2:213, 2:272, 3:42-55, 3:101, 4:44, 4:68, 4:172-175, 5:18, 6:39, 6:87, 6:126, 6:153-161, 7:16, 10:25, 11:56, 11:112, 15:41, 16:9, 16:76, 16:121, 19:36, 19:43, 20:108, 20:135, 22:54, 23:73-74, 24:46-48, 25:27, 25:52, 25:57, 28:22, 36:4, 36:61, 37:118, 38:22, 42:52-53, 43:43, 43:61-64, 46:30, 48:2, 48:20, 57:27-29, 60:1, 67:22, 73:19-20, 76:29-30, 98:5.

Compare with: Deut. 9:12, 9:16, 11:28, 13:5, 27:18, 31:29

See also: Enoch 60:11, 88:52, 90:15-17, 91:3, 92:15, 93:1-5, 96:6, 97:9-10

Sura 1:6-7
1:6. Show us The Straight Way,
1:7. The Way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace (John 1:14), those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

Sura 2:142. The fools among the people will say: "What hath turned them from Abraham's Sacrifice at which they were used [to quibbling]?" Say: "To God belong both East and West: He guideth whom He will to The Way that is straight (and strait)."

Sura 2:213. Mankind was one single nation, and God sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent The Book (The Torah) in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of The Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. God by His Grace guided the Believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For God guides whom He will to The Way that is Straight.

Sura 2:272. It is not required of thee (O Messenger), to set them on the right path, but God sets on The Straight Way whom He pleaseth. Whatever of good ye give benefits your own souls, and ye shall only do so seeking the "Face" of God. Whatever good ye give, shall be rendered back to you (Karma - Sowing and Reaping - Gal. 6:7), and ye shall not be dealt with unjustly.

Sura 3:42-55
3:42. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.
3:43. O Mary! worship Thy Lord devoutly: prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down."
3:44. This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which We reveal unto thee (O Messenger!) by inspiration: thou wast not with them when they cast lots with arrows, as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary: nor wast thou with them when they disputed (the point).
3:45. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of The Word (John 1:1-5) from Him: he will be called Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God.
3:46. He shall speak to the people in childhood (Luke 2:40-47) and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."
3:47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: when He hath decreed a plan, He only saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
3:48. And God will teach him The Book (Old Covenant) and Wisdom, The Law (The Torah) and The Gospel,
3:49. And (appoint him) an Apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: and I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I enliven the dead, by God's leave and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
3:50. (I have come to you), to affirm The Law which was before me (Matt. 5:17-20). And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
3:51. It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord then worship Him (John 20:17, 1 Cor. 11:3). This is The Way that is Straight (John 14:6)."
3:52. When Jesus found Unbelief on their part he said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God." Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: we believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are "True in Faith".
3:53. Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger; then write us down among those who bear witness."
3:54. And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and God too planned, and the best of planners is God.
3:55. Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, to The Day of Resurrection: then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

Sura 3:101. And how would ye deny Faith while unto you are rehearsed the Signs of God, and among you lives the Messenger? Whoever holds firmly to God will be shown The Way that is Straight (and Strait - (Matt. 7:13-14).

Sura 4:44. Hast thou not turned thy vision to those who were given a portion of The Book (Bible)? They traffic in error, and wish that ye should lose The Straight Way.

Sura 4:68. And We should have shown them The Straight Way.

Sura 4:172-175
4:172. Christ commandeth YE to serve and worship God, so do the angels, those nearest (to God): those who scorn His worship and are arrogant,- He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).
4:173. But to those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, He will give their (due) rewards,- and more, out of His bounty: but those who are scornful and arrogant, He will punish with a grievous Penalty; nor will they find, besides God, any to protect or help them.
4:174. O mankind! Verily there hath come to you a convincing proof from your Lord: for We have sent unto you a Light (that is) manifest.
Sura 4:175. Then those who believe God, and hold fast to Him,- soon will He admit them to Mercy and Grace from Himself, and guide them to Himself by The Straight Way.

Sura 5:18. Wherewith "I AM" guideth all who seek His good pleasure to The Way of Peace and Safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His Will, unto the Light (John 8:3),- guideth them to The Way that is Straight (and Strait).

Sura 6:39. Those who reject Our Signs are deaf and dumb,- in the midst of profound darkness: whom "I AM" willeth, He leaveth to wander: whom He willeth, He placeth on The Way that is Straight.

Sura 6:87. (To them) and to their fathers, and progeny and brethren: We chose them, and We guided them to The Straight Way.

Sura 6:126. This is The Way of thy Lord, leading straight: We have detailed the Signs for those who accept warning.

Sura 6:153-161
6:153. Verily, THIS is my way, leading straight: follow it: follow not (other) ways: they will scatter you away from His (Great) Way: thus doth He command YOU, that ye may be righteous.
6:154. Moreover, We gave Moses The Book (The Torah), COMPLETING (Our favour) to those who would do right, and explaining ALL things IN DETAIL,- and a GUIDE and a MERCY, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
6:155. And this (Torah) is a Book which We have revealed as a BLESSING: so follow it and be righteous, that YE may receive mercy (Sura 32:23):
6:156. Lest YE should say: "The Book (The Torah) was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by careful study:"
6:157. Or lest YE should say: "If The Book (The Torah) had only been sent down to US, we should have FOLLOWED its guidance BETTER than they (Sura 32:23)." Now then hath come unto YOU a clear (Sign) from your Lord,- and a GUIDE and a MERCY: then who could do MORE WRONG than one who rejecteth "I AM"'s Signs (and The Torah - Bible), and turneth away therefrom? In good time shall We requite those who turn away from Our Signs, with a dreadful penalty, for their turning away.
6:158. Are they waiting to see if the angels come to them, or thy Lord (Himself), or certain of the Signs of thy Lord! The day that certain of the Signs of thy Lord do come, no good will it do to a soul to believe in them then, if it did not believe before, nor earned righteousness through its Faith. Say: "Wait ye: we too are waiting."
6:159. As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou must have nothing whatsoever to do with it, even in the least: their affair is with "I AM": in the end He will tell them the truth of all that they did.
6:160. He that doeth good shall have ten times as much to his credit: he that doeth evil shall only be recompensed according to his evil: no wrong shall be done unto (any of) them.
6:161. Say: "Verily, my Lord hath guided me to The Way that is straight,- a religion of JUSTICE,- the path (trod) by Abraham the "True in Faith", and he (certainly) (proved it and further more) joined not gods with "I AM"."

Sura 7:16. He said: "Because thou hast thrown me (Lucifer/Iblis) out of The Way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on Thy Straight Way:

Sura 10:25. But "I AM" doth call to the Home of Peace: He doth guide whom He pleaseth to The Way that is straight (Matt. 7:13-14).

Sura 11:56. I put my trust in God, My Lord and your Lord! There is not a moving creature, but He hath grasp of its fore-lock. Verily, it is my Lord that is on a straight Path.

Sura 11:112. Therefore stand firm (in The Straight Way) as thou art commanded,- thou and those who with thee turn (unto "I AM"); and transgress not (from The Way): for He seeth well all that ye do.

Sura 15:41. ("I AM") said: "This (way of My sincere servants) is indeed The Way that leads straight to Me (John 11:25).

Sura 16:9. And unto "I AM" leads straight The Way (Deut. 31:29), but there are ways that turn aside: if "I AM" had willed, He could have guided all of you.

Sura 16:121. He showed his gratitude for the favours of "I AM", Who chose him, and guided him to The Straight Way.

Sura 19:36. Verily "I AM" is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is The Way that is straight.

Sura 19:43. O my father! To me hath come Knowledge which hath not reached thee: so follow me: I will guide thee to The Way that is equal and straight.

Sura 20:108. On that Day will they follow the Caller (straight): no crookedness (can they show) him: all sounds shall humble themselves in the Presence of ("I AM") Most Gracious: nothing shalt thou hear but the tramp of their feet (as they march).

Sura 20:135. Say: "Each one (of us) is waiting: wait ye, therefore, and soon shall ye know who it is that is on The Straight and Equal Way, and who it is that has received Guidance."

Sura 22:54. And that those on whom Knowledge has been bestowed may learn that the (Koran) is the Truth from thy Lord, and that they may believe therein, and their hearts may be made humbly (open) to it: for verily "I AM" is the Guide, of those who believe, to The Straight Way.

Sura 23:73. But verily thou callest them to The Straight Way;

Sura 24:46. We have indeed sent down Signs that make things clear: and "I AM" guides whom He wills to The Way that is straight.

Sura 25:27. The Day that the wrong-doer will bite at his hands, he will say, "Oh! Would that I had taken The (straight) Way with the Messenger.

Sura 25:52. Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with The (straight Way).

Sura 25:57. Say: "No reward do I ask of you for it but this: that each one who will may take The (straight) Way to his Lord."

Sura 28:22. Then, when he turned his face towards (the land of) Midian, he said: "I do hope that my Lord will show me the Equal and Straight Way."

Sura 36:4. On The Straight Way.

Sura 36:61. And that ye should worship only Me, (for that) this was The Straight Way?

Sura 37:118. And We guided them to The Straight Way.

Sura 38:22. When they entered the presence of David, and he was terrified of them, they said: "Fear not: we are two Disputants, one of whom has wronged the other: decide now between us with truth, and treat us not with injustice, but guide us to The Straight Way.

Sura 42:53. The Way of "I AM" (John 14:6), to Whom belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on Earth. Behold (how) all affairs tend towards "I AM".

Sura 43:43. So hold thou fast to the revelation sent down to thee verily thou art on The Straight Way.

Sura 43:61-64
43:61. And (Christ the Mahdi) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) The Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about The (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is The Straight Way.
43:62. Let not the Evil One hinder you: for he is to you an enemy avowed.
43:63. When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear "I AM" and obey me.
43:64. For "I AM", He is my Lord and your Lord (John 20:17): so worship ye Him (Matthew 5:48): this is The Straight Way."

Sura 46:30. They said, "O our people! We have heard a Book revealed after Moses, confirming what came before it: IT guides (men) to the Truth and to The Straight Way.

Sura 48:2. That "I AM" may forgive thee thy faults of the past and those to follow; fulfill His favour to thee; and guide thee on The Straight Way;

Sura 48:20. "I AM" has promised you many gains that ye shall acquire, and He has given you these beforehand; and He has restrained the hands of men from you; that it may be a Sign for the Believers, and that He may guide you to The Straight Way;

Sura 57:27-29
57:27. Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our Apostles: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him The Gospel and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy. But the Monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them: (We commanded) only the seeking for the Good Pleasure of "I AM"; but, that they did not foster as they should have done. Yet We bestowed, on those among them who believed, their (due) reward, but many of them are rebellious transgressors.
57:28. O ye that believe! Fear "I AM", and believe in His Messenger, and He will bestow on you a double portion of His Mercy: He will provide for you a Light by which ye shall walk (straight in your path), and He will forgive you (your past): for "I AM" is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
57:29. That the People of The Book (Bible) may know that they have no power whatever over the Grace of "I AM", that (His) Grace is (entirely) in His Hand, to bestow it on whomsoever He wills. For "I AM" is the Lord of Grace abounding.

Sura 60:1. O ye who believe! Take not My enemies and yours as friends (or protectors),- offering them (your) love, even though they have rejected the Truth that has come to you, and have (on the contrary) driven out the Prophet and yourselves (from your homes), (simply) because ye believe "I AM" your Lord! If ye have come out to strive in My Way and to seek My Good Pleasure, (take them not as friends), holding secret converse of love (and friendship) with them: for I know full well all that ye conceal and all that ye reveal. And any of you that does this has strayed from The Straight Way.

Sura 67:22. Is then one who walks headlong, with his face grovelling, better guided,- or one who walks evenly on The Straight Way?

Sura 73:19-20
73:19. Verily this is a Warning: therefore, whoso will, let him take The (Straight) Way to his Lord!
73:20. Thy Lord doth know that thou standest forth (to prayer) nearly two-thirds of the night, or half the night, or a third of the night, and so doth a party of those with thee. But "I AM" doth appoint night and day in due measure. He knoweth that ye are unable to keep count thereof. So He hath turned to you (in mercy): read ye, therefore, of the Koran as much as may be easy for you. He knoweth that there may be (some) among you in ill-health; others travelling through the land, seeking of "I AM"'s bounty; yet others fighting in "I AM"'s Cause. Read ye, therefore, as much of the Koran as may be easy (for you); and establish Constant Prayer (1 Thess. 5:17) and give regular Charity; and loan to "I AM" a Beautiful Loan. And whatever good ye send forth for your souls, ye shall find it in "I AM"'s Presence,- yea, better and greater, in Reward (Matthew 6:19-21). And seek ye the Grace of "I AM": for God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Sura 76:29-30
76:29. This is a warning: whosoever will, let him take The (Straight) Way to his Lord.
76:30. But ye will not, except as "I AM" wills; for "I AM" is full of Knowledge and Wisdom.

Sura 98:5. And they have been commanded no more than this: to worship God, offering Him sincere devotion, being True (in Faith); to establish constant Prayer (1 Thess. 5:17) and to practise regular Charity and that is the Religion (bonded obligation) Right and Straight.


From The Law:-


Deuteronomy 9:12 And the "I AM" said unto me, Arise, get thee down quickly from hence; for thy people which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt have corrupted [themselves]; they are quickly turned aside out of The Way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten image.

Deuteronomy 9:16 And I looked, and, behold, ye had sinned against the "I AM" your God, [and] had made you a molten calf: ye had turned aside quickly out of The Way which the "I AM" had commanded you.

Deuteronomy 11:28 And a curse, if ye will NOT obey The Commandments of the "I AM" your God, but turn aside out of The Way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Deuteronomy 13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the "I AM" your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of The Way which the "I AM" thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Deuteronomy 31:29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt [yourselves], and turn aside from The Way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the "I AM", to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands.


From the Book of Enoch (Idris):-

Enoch 60:11 Who shall judge (Isa. 42:1-4) all the works of the holy, and in a Balance (Suras 7:8 & 42:17 & 6:154-157 & 57:25) shall he weigh their actions. And when He shall lift up His countenance to judge their secret ways by The Word (the Messiah/Christ/Mahdi - John 1:14; Sura 43:61) [acting] in the name of the Lord of Spirits (Matt. 28:18), and their progress in The Way of the Righteous Judgement of God Most High (John 5:22);

Enoch 88:52 When the rest of the sheep began to grow blind (spiritually), and to wander from The Way (Deut. 11:28; 31:29) which he had shown them; but he knew it not.

Enoch 90:5-17
90:15 And now, my children, I will describe and point out to you The Way of Righteousness and The Path of Oppression.
90:16 I will again point them out to you, that you may know what is to come.
90:17 Hear now, my children, and walk in The Way of Righteousness, but shun that of oppression; for all who walk in the path of inequity shall perish for ever.

Enoch 91:3 Let the righteous man arise from (spiritual) slumber; let him arise, and proceed in The Way of Righteousness, in all its Ways; and let his goings be in goodness and in eternal clemency. Mercy shall be showed to the righteous man; upon him shall be conferred integrity and power for ever. In goodness and in righteousness shall he exist, and shall walk in Everlasting Light; but sin shall perish in eternal darkness, and not be seen from this time forward for evermore (Jer. 31:33-34).

Enoch 92:15 Every work of the unGodly shall disappear from the whole Earth; the world shall be marked for destruction; and all men shall be on the lookout for The Way of Righteousness (Deut. 11:28; 31:29; Zech. 8:23).

Enoch 93:1-5
93:1 And now let me exhort you, my children, to love righteousness, and to walk in it; for The Way of Righteousness is worthy of acceptation; but the infinite number of (easy) paths of iniquity shall SUDDENLY fail, and be diminished.
93:2 To men of note in their generation the paths of oppression and death are revealed; but they keep far from them, and do not follow them.
93:3 Now, too, let me exhort you who are righteous, not to walk in the paths of evil and oppression, nor in the paths of death (Deut. 30:15,19). Approach them not, that you may not perish; but desire eagerly,
93:4 And choose for yourselves righteousness, and a good (God-fearing) life.
93:5 Walk in The Way of peace, that you may live, and be found worthy. Retain my words in your inmost thoughts, and obliterate them not from your hearts; for I know that sinners counsel men to commit crime craftily. They are not found in every place, nor does every counsel possess a little of them.

Enoch 96:6 Woe unto you, sinners, who in the midst of the sea, and on dry land, are those against whom an evil record exists. Woe to you who squander silver and gold, not obtained in The Way of righteousness, and say: We are rich (James 5:1-8), possess wealth, and we have acquired every thing which we desire (Sura 3:181).

Enoch 97:9 But in those days blessed shall they be, to whom the Word of Wisdom is delivered; who point out and pursue The Way of The Most High; who walk in The Way of Righteousness (Deut. 31:29), and who act not disrespectfully with the irreverent.
97:10 They shall be saved.
 






Tidal

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Tidal asked- In that case why aren't muslims Christians, and why do muslims think Mohammed is better than Jesus?
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i already answered the first q.
as for the second q, if they do, it's due to ignorance..

Sorry mate but your posts are becoming a bit long and I must have missed your reply buried somewhere in them.
My own debating style is to ask short straight questions in the hope of getting a short sharp answer..:)
Let me put my original question another way- if atheists decided to shop around for a religion to hitch their horses to, Jesus's credentials and the offer he put on the table for us seem way better than anybody elses, so what does Mohammed offer that's better?
For example Jesus's arrival was foretold many times in the Old T, and he did miracles that blew people's socks off, and he said if we become his mates, he's got our backs and will get us off this planet to a better place, so he's a hard act for any other "holy man" to follow..:)
The trick is to "mindmeld" with him-

"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you" (John 14:20)
 






Last edited:
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Tidal asked- In that case why aren't muslims Christians, and why do muslims think Mohammed is better than Jesus?
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Sorry mate but your posts are becoming so long that I must have missed your reply buried somewhere in them.
My own debating style is to ask short straight questions in the hope of getting a short sharp answer..:)
Let me put my original question another way- if atheists decided to shop around for a religion to hitch their horses to, Jesus's credentials and the offer he put on the table for us seem way better than anybody elses, so what does Mohammed offer that's better?
For example Jesus's arrival was foretold many times in the Old T, and he did miracles that blew people's socks off, and he said if we become his mates, he's got our backs and will get us off this planet to a better place, so he's a hard act for any other "holy man" to follow..:)
The trick is to "mindmeld" with him-

"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you" (John 14:20)

all that was answered
you ask questions that require in depth answers though
i cant do this topic justice even in a long post. there are books and books on this topic.

personally i dont view it as Jesus vs Mohammad
i see it as Jesus and Mohammad.
since Jesus represents the Macrocosm and Mohammad the Microcosm, the 2 go hand in hand.
one completes the other.
were it not for Jesus, no Mohammad. Yet Jesus had to go away for Mohammad to come..
no, the holy spirit is not Mohammad, but the holy spirit certainly chose Mohammad to complete John 16, as in revelation and prophecy through a prophet..yet said prophet could only be a gentile, post Jesus.

the truth is, roman christianity is far removed from original christianity.
it is like comparing the israelites in egypt to the original patriarchs. they are different.
what Jesus said btw, was not for you, it was for his followers.
if it was for you, then all you need to do right now is pray to God through Jesus, ask in the name of Jesus, ask for an end to cancer worldwide.
let us see the result in a weeks time man.
if cancer is healed by some new discovery, ill become a christian and follow whatever you did. promise.
 






Tidal

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...personally i dont view it as Jesus vs Mohammad, i see it as Jesus and Mohammad...

..the truth is, roman christianity is far removed from original christianity....

...what Jesus said btw, was not for you, it was for his followers....

...pray to God through Jesus, ask in the name of Jesus, ask for an end to cancer worldwide....if cancer is healed by some new discovery, ill become a christian..

1- Unlike the Everly Brothers who sang in perfect harmony, Jesus and Mohammed were singing from totally different song sheets, so there's very ittle similarity..:)

2- Jesus was almost as big and well-known as Elvis, so if the Romans had tried to mess around with what he said, people would have quickly said- "Hey Caesar, put a sock in it, okay?"

3- Jesus told his followers to spread the gospel to EVERYBODY through the whole world.. :p

4- You go first, pray to Mohammed to end cancer..:)
 






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1- Unlike the Everly Brothers who sang in perfect harmony, Jesus and Mohammed were singing from totally different song sheets, so there's very ittle similarity..:)

2- Jesus was almost as big and well-known as Elvis, so if the Romans had tried to mess around with what he said, people would have quickly said- "Hey Caesar, put a sock in it, okay?"

3- Jesus told his followers to spread the gospel to EVERYBODY through the whole world.. :p

4- You go first, pray to Mohammed to end cancer..:)

1) that's because it goes over your head, this religion stuff
leave it for the big boys. you just go play with your little jesus doll.

i explained in my previous post. the Patriarchs were under 'faith'. The israelites went to egypt, lost their beliefs and then God saw fit to replace it with the system of law/works...for Jesus to come and complete. The law was necessary, in order for God's grace to be revealed through Jesus...via the fulfillment of the law.

this was true for jews, not for gentiles. hence the gentiles were comparitvely linked to the patriarchs, as they were...
yet the gentiles became pagan again in rome..via this fake catholic christianity with the pagan beliefs, festivals etc.
so God saw fit to send a gentile Moses like law bringer, an ishmaelite, naturally...
both for the fulfillment of prophecy and to give pagans the truth and a law..
for Jesus to complete
hence the complete one another.

furthermore, Mohammad coming after Jesus, was because the holy spirit/comforter in John 16, chose to come to Mohammad. The holy spirit functions through people...and Jesus said 'he will tell you what is to come..and he was only speak what he hears, he wont speak on his own'
this contradicts the trinitarian doctrine where the holy spirit is God..and co-equals with the Father and Son.
however the promise itself comes via Mohammad, a chosen prophet.
So Jesus said he had to go away for Mohammad to come...
ie he knew why the law of gentiles was necessary through a gentile prophet.
Hence in the parable of the tenants, he revealed another people would inherit Jerusalem as tenants..
that all came true through islam.

all it does is pave the way for Jesus's return which muslims believe in.


2) no idea, but Mohammad is the most influential man of all time.

3) Yes he did and we hear loud and clear
but Jesus said he will send the holy spirit to reveal the WHOLE TRUTH and tell you what is to come.
Jesus had to leave in order for this to happen..
the Gospel is only part of a story, it isnt the complete picture
just as there was a time when there was a Moses...after there was an Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...and then a time when there was Jesus.
telling me about Jesus doesnt negate Mohammad.

4) Mohammad is not God, nor did he say 'ask anything in my name and itll be given'. Jesus did..and you have admitted it isnt true.

tell me why Jesus isnt answering you when you ask for good things with his name?
answer: Jesus shut the door on your pagan beliefs.
hence Jesus said "many will come to me on that day saying 'lord lord'"
and Jesus will reject them saying "i never knew you"

Jesus dont know you m8.
 






Tidal

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..it goes over your head, this religion stuff....

Aargh, another of your trademark long posts mate, I hope you don't mind if I've left most of it on the cutting room floor..:)
Do yourself a favour and take this verse on board-
"The more the words,the less the meaning,and how does that profit anyone?" (Ecc 6:11)
 






billy t

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1- Unlike the Everly Brothers who sang in perfect harmony, Jesus and Mohammed were singing from totally different song sheets, so there's very ittle similarity..:)

ANSWER: Jesus said to worship God Alone. In John Jesus is quoted as saying "my father is greater than I". The shahadah in Islaam is basically the same as the first commandment. What you should have said is Jesus and Paul sang from different song sheets.
2- Jesus was almost as big and well-known as Elvis, so if the Romans had tried to mess around with what he said, people would have quickly said- "Hey Caesar, put a sock in it, okay?"

ANSWER: Wow, so you compare Jesus to Elvis but even say Elvis was more well known! Amazing. Who said all the changing of his words happened when he was on earth??? Where did you get that idea? The followers of Jesus who had his word were killed by the same ones who tried to kill Jesus. Are you this ignorant??

3- Jesus told his followers to spread the gospel to EVERYBODY through the whole world.. :p

ANSWER:Where show me the verse. Jesus said according to your book "I was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel".

4 - You go first, pray to Mohammed to end cancer..:)

The Prophet salAllahu alaiyhi wasallam said, "do not go to extremes in praising me as the Christians did with Jesus I am just a slave of Allah so say Allah slave and Messenger".
 






A Freeman

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all that was answered
you ask questions that require in depth answers though
i cant do this topic justice even in a long post. there are books and books on this topic.

personally i dont view it as Jesus vs Mohammad
i see it as Jesus and Mohammad.
since Jesus represents the Macrocosm and Mohammad the Microcosm, the 2 go hand in hand.
one completes the other.
were it not for Jesus, no Mohammad. Yet Jesus had to go away for Mohammad to come..
no, the holy spirit is not Mohammad, but the holy spirit certainly chose Mohammad to complete John 16, as in revelation and prophecy through a prophet..yet said prophet could only be a gentile, post Jesus.

the truth is, roman christianity is far removed from original christianity.
it is like comparing the israelites in egypt to the original patriarchs. they are different.
what Jesus said btw, was not for you, it was for his followers.
if it was for you, then all you need to do right now is pray to God through Jesus, ask in the name of Jesus, ask for an end to cancer worldwide.
let us see the result in a weeks time man.
if cancer is healed by some new discovery, ill become a christian and follow whatever you did. promise.
The Holy Spirit is our CONNECTION with Father (God, "I AM"). And that CONNECTION is Christ (1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 6:20).

John 16:7-9
16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the Truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
16:9 Of sin, because they believe not me;

And Who is "the Comforter" (the Holy Spirit/Spirit of Truth) according to Christ?

John 14:15-19
14:15 If ye love me, KEEP my COMMANDments.
14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you FOR EVER;
14:17 [Even] the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I WILL COME TO YOU.
14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I Live, ye shall live also.


Muhammad (peace be upon him) was a Messenger of Allah, but he did NOT prophesy anything new. Muhammed is referred to as "the Seal of the Prophets" because he CONFIRMED Allah's Message/Word/Truth that was sent down to the Prophets before him, exactly as it says repeatedly throughout the Koran (Quran). A "seal" is the CONFIRMATION that the message being sent inside of it is AUTHENTIC.

Sura 33:40. Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of "I AM", and the Seal of the Prophets*: and "I AM" has full knowledge of all things.

*CONFIRMING what the Prophets that came before him PROPHESIED

The verse above specifically states that "Muhammad is NOT the father of ANY of your men", i.e. he is NOT starting some "new religion". It is also noteworthy that the Koran never refers to Muhammad as a "prophet"; only as an Apostle (like the disciples or Paul) and/or the Messenger of Allah (Whose Name is "I AM").

Sura 3:144. Muhammad is no more than an Apostle: many were the Apostles that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to God; but God (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.

Sura 47:2. But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in the (revelation) sent down to Muhammad - for it is the Truth from their Lord (Ps. 110:1, 1 Cor. 11:3),- He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition.

Sura 48:29. Muhammad is the Apostle of "I AM"; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from "I AM" and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat (The Torah); and their similitude in The Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight (Matt. 13). As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. "I AM" has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds Forgiveness, and a great Reward.

This is why Muhammad (peace be upon him) CANNOT be the "last prophet", nor the "follow-up" to Christ; not only because he did not convey any new prophesies, but also because the Koran itself tells us Who to expect right before Judgment Day: Christ.

Sura 43:61. And (Christ the Mahdi) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) The Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about The (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is The Straight Way (Matt. 7:13-14, John 14:6).

Some translations have this as "Jesus" and others as "Christ" or "Jesus Christ", but it is correctly translated as the IMMORTAL Spirit-Being Messiah/Christ (the Anointed One)--Who is NOT OF THIS WORLD (John 17:5), and Who is is THE ONLY TEACHER/Imam of the 12 tribes of Israel (see Matt. 23:10, Rev. 7:4-9) Who will be GUIDED by Him to their redemption during His Second Coming
 






A Freeman

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Where show me the verse. Jesus said according to your book "I was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel".
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the "lost sheep" of the "House of Israel" (the Ten "Lost" Tribes of Israel).

Christ, through the mouth of Jesus, also Commanded His Disciples to do the same.

Matthew 10:5-6
10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the "House of Israel".
 






A Freeman

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Good Sabbath day and good wishes to all.

There are 11 pages in this thread, and still not one single verse/ayat has been produced from the Koran (Quran) that instructs us to make a public display of praying, or that tells us to pray 5 times a day (and before going to the toilet, etc.). Why? BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ONE SINGLE VERSE THAT TELLS US TO DO ANY OF THOSE THINGS.

We are told no less than 40 times in the Koran (Quran) to ESTABLISH CONSTANT PRAYER so that we are being guided by Father (Allah, Whose Name is "I AM") and His Holy Spirit instead of being misguided by Satan/Iblis.

Why do so-called Muslims insist upon doing the exact opposite of what it says in the Koran (Quran)? There is absolutely NOTHING pious about opposing Allah, nor is doing the opposite of what He COMMANDS in any way doing His Will. It is, instead, a guaranteed recipe to join Satan/Iblis in The Fire on Judgment Day, which is the reason for sharing this warning with those misguided souls who believe they can continue their evil organized religions with their "oral traditions of their fathers/elders", which make the Commandments of God of no effect.

This loving warning has been met with nothing but animosity from the UNBELIEVERS, who argue AGAINST Father, His Angels, His Messengers and His Holy Word, pretending the Bible that came before the Koran (Quran) has been corrupted, or that the Bible and Koran are "irreconcilable" even after being provided CLEAR SIGNS directly from Father's Word that is simply NOT the case.

Adherents to the evil organized religion referred to as "Islam" refuse to learn from Father how HE has COMMANDED us to pray to Him IN PRIVATE and IN HUMILITY (Matt. 6:5-8, Sura 4:142, Sura 7:55, Sura 9:107-111, Sura 33:33). Who could do more wrong than that?

Adherents to the evil organized religion referred to as "Islam" have DIVIDED into various sects/cults/factions/denominations, etc., in direct violation of Father's repeated COMMANDS not to do so, in His Law, His Gospel and His Koran. We are supposed to be a SINGLE BROTHERHOOD OF BELIEVERS, believing Father (God) and DOING His Will ONLY, as ALL of His Prophets, Messengers and Apostles stated. Who could do more wrong than that?

See: Suras 3:103-105, 6:159, 11:17, 13:36, 15:10-11, 15:90-91, 19:37, 21:92-93, 23:52-53, 30:30-33, 38:1-2, 42:13-14, 43:64-67, 49:10.

Adherents to the evil organized religion referred to as "Islam" argue AGAINST and refuse to follow The Law and the Gospel of Jesus, falsely claiming these don't exist so they can remain unfamiliar with them, and so Satan can keep us divided against each other, even though the Koran (Quran) COMMANDS us to do otherwise. Who could do more wrong than that?

See: Suras 2:53, 2:87-93, 3:1-3, 3:48-50, 4:54, 5:46-50, 6:91-92, 6:154-157, 7:157, 9:111, 11:17, 15:9-10, 17:2-4, 21:48, 23:20, 23:49, 25:35, 28:1-3, 32:23, 35:25-32, 37:117, 40:53, 40:70, 41:45, 42:14-17, 45:16, 46:12, 46:30, 48:29, 53:36-47, 57:25-29, 61:6, 78:2

The Koran specifically tells us that it was sent to CONFIRM what is in the Bible, and to NOT BE IN DOUBT OF IT (Sura 15:9-10, 32:23), nor to believe in the LIE that any human could corrupt The Word of our ALL-POWERFUL God, regardless of how that word is sent to us (e.g. in writing or in the flesh-and-blood example of Jesus+Christ). Who then could do more wrong than to doubt that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, and that has been guarded against corruption according to God (Sura 15:9-10)?

See: Suras 2:97-98, 3:1-3, 4:47, 5:51, 6:92-94, 6:154-157, 10:37, 12:111, 22:52, 35:31, 46:12, 61:6-7

Adherents to the evil organized religion referred to as "Islam" have partnered their evil, contradictory "oral traditions of the fathers/elders" (LIES) with God and His Message of TRUTH, in direct violation of what it says in the Koran (Quran). Who could do more wrong than that?

See: Suras 3:64, 4:36, 4:48, 5:102, 6:22-24, 6:78-81, 6:136-137, 6:148, 6:163, 7:33, 7:190-199, 9:31, 10:18, 10:28, 10:34-37, 10:66, 11:55, 12:38, 12:105-108, 13:16, 13:33-36, 16:1-3, 16:27, 16:86-88, 16:98-101, 17:111, 18:42, 18:52, 18:110, 22:31, 23:59, 23:92, 25:2, 28:62-64, 28:68, 30:12-14, 30:40, 34:27, 35:14, 35:40, 40:12, 40:42, 40:84-85, 41:47-48, 42:21, 59:23, 68:41

Nowhere in the Koran does it tell us to read and/or accept the Hadith. In fact, it specifically states the Quran does NOT need any man-made Hadiths.

Sura 5:4. Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat (Lev. 22:8, Deut. 14:21), blood (Lev. 3:17, Lev. 17:10-11), the flesh of swine (Deut. 14:8), and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than "I AM" (Num. 25:1-3); that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal (Lev. 22:8); unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form) that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject Faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not, but fear Me (Matt. 10:28). THIS DAY* I HAVE PERFECTED YOUR RELIGION FOR YOU, COMPLETED MY FAVOUR UPON YOU, AND HAVE CHOSEN FOR YOU, SUBMISSION TO MY WILL, AS YOUR RELIGION. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, "I AM" is indeed Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

*This leaves absolutely NO wiggle room for men to fabricate additional writings about Muhammad (peace be upon him), AFTER the Koran. Only the Word of God found in the Old Covenant, New Covenant and Koran -- or prophesied in them -- is the inspired Word of God. Everything else is from Satan, exactly as it says in the Koran (Quran).

Sura 6:112-115
6:112. Likewise We made for every Messenger an enemy,- evil ones among men and Beings (human+beings), inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception. If thy Lord had so planned, they would not have done it: so leave them and their inventions alone.
6:113. To such (deceit) let the hearts of those incline, who have no faith in the Hereafter: let them delight in it, and let them earn from it what they may.
6:114. Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than "I AM"? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you The Book (Bible), explained in detail." They, to whom We have given The Book, know full well, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then one of those who doubt.
6:115. The Word of thy Lord doth find its FULFILLMENT in TRUTH and in JUSTICE: none can change His Words: for He is the One who heareth and knoweth all.

Sura 22:52-53
22:52. Never did We send an Apostle or a Prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but "I AM" will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and "I AM" will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for "I AM" is full of Knowledge and Wisdom:
22:53. That He may make the suggestions thrown in by Satan, but a trial for those in whose hearts is a disease and who are hardened of heart: verily the wrong-doers are in a schism far (from the Truth):

Any UNBELIEVER seeking refuge in the Hadith, i.e. making it a partner to God's Word, and rejecting the Old Covenant and New Covenant that the Koran was sent by God to CONFIRM, will spend eternity in The Fire, exactly as it warns in the Koran at least 300 times.

May this Message of Truth reach those who are "True in Faith".

Peace be upon all of you.
 






Forever Light

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Ok, I think I have heard this "still small voice" on occasion. One of the things it told me is that nobody is ever definitely doomed and lost, that ultimately even the most fallen beings will have the opportunity to develop spiritual realization once they have faced the karma of whatever they have created. I struggle to understand how you can have a solid meditation practice and still be caught up in some of the ideas being promoted by your guru.
Sura
22:49. Say: "O men! I am (sent) to you only to give a Clear Warning:
22:50. Those who believe and work righteousness, for them is forgiveness and a sustenance most generous.
22:51. But those who strive against Our Signs, to frustrate them,- they will be Companions of The Fire."
22:52. Never did We send an Apostle or a Prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but "I AM" will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and "I AM" will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for "I AM" is full of Knowledge and Wisdom:
22:53. That He may make the suggestions thrown in by Satan, but a trial for those in whose hearts is a disease and who are hardened of heart: verily the wrong-doers are in a schism far (from the Truth):
22:54. And that those on whom Knowledge has been bestowed may learn that the (Koran) is the Truth from thy Lord, and that they may believe therein, and their hearts may be made humbly (open) to it: for verily "I AM" is the Guide, of those who believe, to The Straight Way.

The Message that concurs throughout all of the Books:

Just Worship ONLY God.

Only God is Pure. The Books themselves, are not pure. The prophets and apostles themselves, were not pure (not perfect). That means, not even Jesus (The Example) is to be worshiped instead of/in place of God. As he told everyone:

Matt. 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou ME good? [there is] none good but One, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into Life, keep the Commandments.

Matt. 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven IS perfect.

And certainly not Muhammad, either:

Sura 3:144. Muhammad is no more than an Apostle: many were the Apostles that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to God; but God (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.

Sura 18:110. Say: "I am only a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your God is One God: whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as His partner.

The Instruction is never to worship the Prophets and Apostles, (or any Angel or Messenger) but to take heed of God's Message that they bring to Mankind (as Warners) and to take heed of and obey them. -

Sura 3:31. Say: "If ye do love God, follow me: God will love you and forgive you your sins: for God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
3:32. Say: "Obey God and His Messenger": but if they turn back, God loveth not those who reject Faith.

This is the true account:

Sura
3:18. There is no God but He: that is the witness of God, His angels, and those endued with Knowledge, standing firm on justice. There is no God but He, the Exalted in Power, the Wise.
3:19. The Religion before God is eagerly desiring to do His Will: nor did the People of The Book (Bible) dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after Knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of God, God is swift in calling to account.

Sura
3:58. This is what We rehearse unto thee of the Signs and the Message of Wisdom.
3:59. The similitude of Jesus (the human) before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be": and he was.
3:60. The Truth (comes) from God alone; so be not of those who doubt.
3:61. If any one disputes in this matter with thee, now after (full) knowledge hath come to thee, say: "Come! let us gather together,- our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves: then let us earnestly pray, and invoke the curse of God on those who lie!"
3:62. This is the true account: there is no god except God; and God- He is indeed the Exalted in Power, the Wise.

Peace be upon you and within you.
 






Last edited:

shankara

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Sura
22:49. Say: "O men! I am (sent) to you only to give a Clear Warning:
22:50. Those who believe and work righteousness, for them is forgiveness and a sustenance most generous.
22:51. But those who strive against Our Signs, to frustrate them,- they will be Companions of The Fire."
22:52. Never did We send an Apostle or a Prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but "I AM" will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and "I AM" will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for "I AM" is full of Knowledge and Wisdom:
22:53. That He may make the suggestions thrown in by Satan, but a trial for those in whose hearts is a disease and who are hardened of heart: verily the wrong-doers are in a schism far (from the Truth):
22:54. And that those on whom Knowledge has been bestowed may learn that the (Koran) is the Truth from thy Lord, and that they may believe therein, and their hearts may be made humbly (open) to it: for verily "I AM" is the Guide, of those who believe, to The Straight Way.

The Message that concurs throughout all of the Books:

Just Worship ONLY God.

Only God is Pure. The Books themselves, are not pure. The prophets and apostles themselves, were not pure (not perfect). That means, not even Jesus (The Example) is to be worshiped instead of/in place of God. As he told everyone:

Matt. 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou ME good? [there is] none good but One, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into Life, keep the Commandments.

Matt. 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven IS perfect.

And certainly not Muhammad, either:

Sura 3:144. Muhammad is no more than an Apostle: many were the Apostles that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to God; but God (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.

Sura 18:110. Say: "I am only a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your God is One God: whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as His partner.

The Instruction is never to worship the Prophets and Apostles, (or any Angel or Messenger) but to take heed of God's Message that they bring to Mankind (as Warners) and to take heed of and obey them. -

Sura 3:31. Say: "If ye do love God, follow me: God will love you and forgive you your sins: for God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
3:32. Say: "Obey God and His Messenger": but if they turn back, God loveth not those who reject Faith.

This is the true account:

Sura
3:18. There is no God but He: that is the witness of God, His angels, and those endued with Knowledge, standing firm on justice. There is no God but He, the Exalted in Power, the Wise.
3:19. The Religion before God is eagerly desiring to do His Will: nor did the People of The Book (Bible) dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after Knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of God, God is swift in calling to account.

Sura
3:58. This is what We rehearse unto thee of the Signs and the Message of Wisdom.
3:59. The similitude of Jesus (the human) before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be": and he was.
3:60. The Truth (comes) from God alone; so be not of those who doubt.
3:61. If any one disputes in this matter with thee, now after (full) knowledge hath come to thee, say: "Come! let us gather together,- our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves: then let us earnestly pray, and invoke the curse of God on those who lie!"
3:62. This is the true account: there is no god except God; and God- He is indeed the Exalted in Power, the Wise.

Peace be upon you and within you.
Yeah all this Abrahamic stuff with eternal hell and predestination really leaves me cold. If you look at it as an esoteric teaching employing symbols to illuminate hidden truths, it can make some sense, but in all of its dogmatic forms it's ridiculous. And you may think that you are free from such dogmas by rejecting "organized religion" (or as it might be better named, the "exoteric"), actually your teaching still includes them - the two aforementioned, for example, and the whole God-Satan dualism.

This latter fails to comprehend that what is known as "Satan", "Lucifer" etc is not some individual being who made some mistake but a universal potency which leads us to experience material existence in order to attain a state of individual self realization rather than the elemental bliss of non-identity (symbolized by the Garden of Eden). This world is not some mistake that we have to get out of in order to return to an original position, it is an opportunity for self-realization, for becoming realized beings who have had experience rather than innocent beings without experience. All beings must first have "knowledge of good and evil" in order to attain self-realization (by overcoming themselves and the desires of the body, meaning that a self and a body are both necessary parts of the process).
 






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This latter fails to comprehend that what is known as "Satan", "Lucifer" etc is not some individual being who made some mistake but a universal potency which leads us to experience material existence in order to attain a state of individual self realization rather than the elemental bliss of non-identity (symbolized by the Garden of Eden). This world is not some mistake that we have to get out of in order to return to an original position, it is an opportunity for self-realization, for becoming realized beings who have had experience rather than innocent beings without experience. All beings must first have "knowledge of good and evil" in order to attain self-realization (by overcoming themselves and the desires of the body, meaning that a self and a body are both necessary parts of the process).
Isn't this Satanism 101?
1602329816695.png
 






shankara

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Isn't this Satanism 101?
No, you don't understand. I'm not suggesting that people should worship Satan. He represents slavery and being caught up in the bonds of matter, addiction, materialistic ignorance, everything bad, basically. This material existence (many, in fact) is something that we have to go through in order to have the possibility of attaining self-realization, recapturing our lost innocence but with consciousness and individual identity rather than in a state of unconscious bliss with no identity. The point of the whole process is to overcome what keeps us bound to matter, to face up to the darkness and overcome it.

All I'm saying is that the darkness has to be there in order for us to have the opportunity to overcome it. There is reason behind all of this world, it isn't a mistake or the result of an error.
 






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No, you don't understand. I'm not suggesting that people should worship Satan. He represents slavery and being caught up in the bonds of matter, addiction, materialistic ignorance, everything bad, basically. This material existence (many, in fact) is something that we have to go through in order to have the possibility of attaining self-realization, recapturing our lost innocence but with consciousness and individual identity rather than in a state of unconscious bliss with no identity. The point of the whole process is to overcome what keeps us bound to matter, to face up to the darkness and overcome it.

All I'm saying is that the darkness has to be there in order for us to have the opportunity to overcome it. There is reason behind all of this world, it isn't a mistake or the result of an error.
Are you trying, in your theory, to implicitly refute the Genesis story and original sin? The differences between the Genesis story and the Quranic story are very important to note, and you may find that they answer some of the problems you have with the Biblical account.

-- Man was intended to dwell on Earth, before Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree. So being in this state of bliss and innocence was always meant to be temporary. "And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said: wilt Thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not." (Quran, 2:30)
-- God indicates that the unique thing about man, out of all His other creation, is that he can learn. "He taught Adam all the names of everything." (Quran, 2:31) Although man was created weak and subject to desires, he can learn from his mistakes.
-- "O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the Paradise and eat both of you freely with pleasure and delight of things therein as wherever you will, but come not near this tree or you both will be of the dhalimin (wrong doers)." (Quran, 2:35)
-- “So he (Satan) misled them with deception.” (Quran, 7:22)
-- God knew, before Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden tree, that they would commit this sin. Their sin was not some kind of Pandora's box that brought evil and sin into the world.
-- Adam and Eve both bore equal responsibility for their eating of the tree. Eve did not tempt Adam; she was not the weaker of the two.
-- Their doing so was a mistake. They had not hitherto experienced the cunning deceptions of Satan. The sin, and the ensuing consequence served as an important lesson to all mankind about Satan's tricks and illusions, and about the consequences of sin. Satan was firmly established in this way as a clear enemy to humankind. "Children of Adam, did We not command you not to worship satan. He was your sworn enemy." (Quran 36:60)
-- The descendants of Adam do not bear the sin of their forefather. They are not punished for it. Every human is born free of sin. "No bearer of burdens shall bear another's burden." (Quran, 35:18)
-- God told Adam and Eve that heaven was no longer to be their abode. Their home was now Earth, for a fixed time. “Get you down (upon the earth), all of you together, from Paradise, some of you are an enemy to some others. Then, if there comes to you guidance from Me, whoever follows My Guidance shall neither go astray, nor fall into distress and misery.” (Quran, 20:123)
-- Adam and Eve repented sincerely after their sin. God forgave them in His infinite mercy. The prayer that God gave them with which they could ask for forgiveness: “Our Lord! We have wronged ourselves. If you forgive us not and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be of the losers.” (Quran, 7:23) We may also use the same prayer to ask God to forgive us.
-- Adam and Eve's descent to Earth was not one of humiliation or degradation.
-- Earth is not our true home. We are here only for a fixed time. We will return to God in the hereafter, and go either to heaven or to hell. Heaven is for those who follow the guidance that God sends to Earth, and submit to God humbly.
-- "O Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you as he caused your (first) parents to go forth from the Garden and tore off from them their robe (of innocence) that be might manifest their shame to them. Lo! he seeth you, he and his tribe, from whence ye see him not. Lo! We have made the devils protecting friends for those who believe not." (Quran, 7:27)
-- The battle between good and evil continues on Earth. Each man is responsible for his own actions.
 






shankara

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Messages
1,268
Are you trying, in your theory, to implicitly refute the Genesis story and original sin? The differences between the Genesis story and the Quranic story are very important to note, and you may find that they answer some of the problems you have with the Biblical account.

-- Man was intended to dwell on Earth, before Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree. So being in this state of bliss and innocence was always meant to be temporary. "And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said: wilt Thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not." (Quran, 2:30)
-- God indicates that the unique thing about man, out of all His other creation, is that he can learn. "He taught Adam all the names of everything." (Quran, 2:31) Although man was created weak and subject to desires, he can learn from his mistakes.
-- "O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the Paradise and eat both of you freely with pleasure and delight of things therein as wherever you will, but come not near this tree or you both will be of the dhalimin (wrong doers)." (Quran, 2:35)
-- “So he (Satan) misled them with deception.” (Quran, 7:22)
-- God knew, before Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden tree, that they would commit this sin. Their sin was not some kind of Pandora's box that brought evil and sin into the world.
-- Adam and Eve both bore equal responsibility for their eating of the tree. Eve did not tempt Adam; she was not the weaker of the two.
-- Their doing so was a mistake. They had not hitherto experienced the cunning deceptions of Satan. The sin, and the ensuing consequence served as an important lesson to all mankind about Satan's tricks and illusions, and about the consequences of sin. Satan was firmly established in this way as a clear enemy to humankind. "Children of Adam, did We not command you not to worship satan. He was your sworn enemy." (Quran 36:60)
-- The descendants of Adam do not bear the sin of their forefather. They are not punished for it. Every human is born free of sin. "No bearer of burdens shall bear another's burden." (Quran, 35:18)
-- God told Adam and Eve that heaven was no longer to be their abode. Their home was now Earth, for a fixed time. “Get you down (upon the earth), all of you together, from Paradise, some of you are an enemy to some others. Then, if there comes to you guidance from Me, whoever follows My Guidance shall neither go astray, nor fall into distress and misery.” (Quran, 20:123)
-- Adam and Eve repented sincerely after their sin. God forgave them in His infinite mercy. The prayer that God gave them with which they could ask for forgiveness: “Our Lord! We have wronged ourselves. If you forgive us not and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be of the losers.” (Quran, 7:23) We may also use the same prayer to ask God to forgive us.
-- Adam and Eve's descent to Earth was not one of humiliation or degradation.
-- Earth is not our true home. We are here only for a fixed time. We will return to God in the hereafter, and go either to heaven or to hell. Heaven is for those who follow the guidance that God sends to Earth, and submit to God humbly.
-- "O Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you as he caused your (first) parents to go forth from the Garden and tore off from them their robe (of innocence) that be might manifest their shame to them. Lo! he seeth you, he and his tribe, from whence ye see him not. Lo! We have made the devils protecting friends for those who believe not." (Quran, 7:27)
-- The battle between good and evil continues on Earth. Each man is responsible for his own actions.
Yeah I like the Islamic interpretation better, the idea of being "stained" by some sin of our ancestors is absurd. But I like the Genesis story too. There's a Gnostic interpretation that the serpent was a kind of liberator, that the Garden of Eden was the false paradise of the Demiurge, and by eating from the tree humanity was "cast down" into the painful existence of this earth but freed from the false innocence of the Demiurge's "paradise". So the serpent saying "you will become gods, knowing good and evil" was not an empty lie, but was true in the sense that the human existence on earth gives us the opportunity to awaken and spiritually evolve towards a state of total consciousness, a spiritual existence where innocence is regained without the loss of the wisdom of experience... and when that arrives, those who attain it could quite truly be said to be "gods".
 






Joined
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Messages
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Perhaps you know my response already, but man cannot become like God. Man can only submit himself to God, and it is therein that true success lies.
 






Joined
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Messages
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It was not Satan that gave us knowledge of good and evil. That was a God-given quality inherent in us already, it just took us to sin first to realise that it is Satan's tricks that can mislead us. But yes, life is a testing ground, where we must overcome evil, and uphold good.
 






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