What could Islam possibly offer me, a follower of Jesus Christ?

Red Sky at Morning

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None of what you put up actually tells me anything in regards to rules and laws to the poisons that are killing our societies except for perhaps sexual promiscuity and even then it doesn't offer a deterrent of any kind. The only rule you have there is love your neighbor, love God, and believe He's One (which is ironic considering many Christians believe that God is One in three).

Every alcoholic first started drinking by saying it's only ONE drink. It's also ironic that some Christians talk about the Law when in the same breath believe they're free from the Law.
Christians are indwelt by the Spirit of the one who wrote the Law. Certainly we don't all "walk in the Spirit" but I don't believe I am free to do what I please.

Perhaps a useful Biblical "type" here is the bondservant.

"Believers today should still consider themselves bondservants or slaves of Christ (1 Corinthians 7:22; Ephesians 6:6; 2 Timothy 2:24). He is our Lord, and our allegiance is due to Him alone. As bondservants, we renounce other masters (Matthew 6:24) and give ourselves totally to Him (Matthew 16:24).

Being a bondservant of Christ is not drudgery. His “burden is light” (Matthew 11:30). Also, we have this promise: “Now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life” (Romans 6:22).

From

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.gotquestions.org/amp/bondservant.html
 

Kung Fu

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Christians are indwelt by the Spirit of the one who wrote the Law. Certainly we don't all "walk in the Spirit" but I don't believe I am free to do what I please.

Perhaps a useful Biblical "type" here is the bondservant.

"Believers today should still consider themselves bondservants or slaves of Christ (1 Corinthians 7:22; Ephesians 6:6; 2 Timothy 2:24). He is our Lord, and our allegiance is due to Him alone. As bondservants, we renounce other masters (Matthew 6:24) and give ourselves totally to Him (Matthew 16:24).

Being a bondservant of Christ is not drudgery. His “burden is light” (Matthew 11:30). Also, we have this promise: “Now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life” (Romans 6:22).

From

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.gotquestions.org/amp/bondservant.html
You can try to use all the fancy words you like but it doesn't answer my question. Telling someone that they have to believe in Christ and that all their problems will disappear on its own after that is not productive which is why the elite have been able water you guys down to the point where the Christian faith is taken as some kind of joke here in the West. Islam offers a framework and tells Muslims what to stay away from and the things it tells us to stay away from are the very same things ruining Western societies, which Christianity doesn't really speak on because the core beliefs and foundation of Christianity is shaky and weak.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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You can try to use all the fancy words you like but it doesn't answer my question. Telling someone that they have to believe in Christ and that all their problems will disappear on its own after that is not productive which is why the elite have been able water you guys down to the point where the Christian faith is taken as some kind of joke here in the West. Islam offers a framework and tells Muslims what to stay away from and the things it tells us to stay away from are the very same things ruining Western societies, which Christianity doesn't really speak on because the core beliefs and foundation of Christianity is shaky and weak.
You are trying to rationalise what goes on inside a Christian with what you think is going on from a Muslim perspective.

Lets consider history - in the UK, there was a great revival around the time of John Westley - the simple heart of it was the preaching of the Bible, and Christians loving God and showing it by loving people. This led to social reform, and a change in society away from the excesses and nonsense that many other countries fell into.

Revival was the answer!

It began with the individual and as individuals were changed so went the nation.

Top down change like a state approved religion may impose order of sorts on a country but only God can truly change the human heart.
 

Damien50

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Though I find your reply endearing it is riddled with a lack of knowledge. Your lack of satisfaction in my reply is directly related to your understanding of Christianity and the Bible rather than it being inadequate in itself.

Do you know why we're called to love God and our neighbor? I mean you don't understand why we only need those two commandments, or that the law isn't to satisfy this life but the next, let alone which law James was even referencing.

As much as I like you it's quite grating to watch you mock and belittle rather than actually display the ability to maneuver Scripture. You didn't and couldn't even address the scriptures I presented to you which I expected instead you digress because of your inability to comprehend the Scripture I shared with you.

Since I answered your questions answer mine

Do you know why we're called to love God and our neighbor? Do you know what it means to walk in and after the spirit?
 

Kung Fu

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You are trying to rationalise what goes on inside a Christian with what you think is going on from a Muslim perspective.

Lets consider history - in the UK, there was a great revival around the time of John Westley - the simple heart of it was the preaching of the Bible, and Christians loving God and showing it by loving people. This led to social reform, and a change in society away from the excesses and nonsense that many other countries fell into.

Revival was the answer!

It began with the individual and as individuals were changed so went the nation.

Top down change like a state approved religion may impose order of sorts on a country but only God can truly change the human heart.
I'm just going by what our scripture and religious practices tell us about negatives of this society.

Tell me what rules and societal law John Westly brought to the UK? Did his Bible preaching stop people from drinking, gambling, partaking in usury, and etc.?

How can Christians change a secular nation with secular laws when Christianity itself doesn't really have any laws when it comes to the poisons ruining Western society?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I'm just going by what our scripture and religious practices tell us about negatives of this society.

Tell me what rules and societal law John Westly brought to the UK? Did his Bible preaching stop people from drinking, gambling, partaking in usury, and etc.?

How can Christians change a secular nation with secular laws when Christianity itself doesn't really have any laws when it comes to the poisons ruining Western society?
You can change a society from laws imposed upon it or from the character of the people who inhabit it (and sometimes both).

Western society has separated church and state and the laws and standards are a mirror to the moral standards of the nation.

The church has not lived up to it's calling in recent times, characterised by the last of the seven churches in Revelation.


Where there is "me" centred Christianity rather than Christ centred, Laodocean Christians focus on their own lives and happiness and make little impact on society.

Jim Caviezel, who famously played Jesus in The Passion of the Christ, told university students that they must set themselves apart from this “corrupt generation” and “be saints.”

“You weren’t made to ‘fit in,’ my brothers and sisters. You were born to stand out. Set yourself apart from this corrupt generation. Be saints,” he said.
 

Kung Fu

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Though I find your reply endearing it is riddled with a lack of knowledge. Your lack of satisfaction in my reply is directly related to your understanding of Christianity and the Bible rather than it being inadequate in itself.

Do you know why we're called to love God and our neighbor? I mean you don't understand why we only need those two commandments, or that the law isn't to satisfy this life but the next, let alone which law James was even referencing.

As much as I like you it's quite grating to watch you mock and belittle rather than actually display the ability to maneuver Scripture. You didn't and couldn't even address the scriptures I presented to you which I expected instead you digress because of your inability to comprehend the Scripture I shared with you.

Since I answered your questions answer mine

Do you know why we're called to love God and our neighbor? Do you know what it means to walk in and after the spirit?
Your reply never answered my simple question. I asked what does Christianity have to offer in terms of the poisons I spoke about that's ruining Western society and you replied with scripture that told me to love God and my neighbor.

It's very easy to say that loving God and and your neighbor will lead you to stay away from drinking excessively, from gambling with your savings, and etc. but we know that's simply not the truth. Humans need laws and regulations and without them civilization would cease to exist.

Dude, I'm not mocking you or belittling you. I simply want an answer to my question. All you had to say is that Christianity doesn't really have any laws or religious practices regarding the poisons you speak of and we could've left it at that.

In terms of what we're talking about, I would assume it's because loving your God and your neighbor are the highest of virtues and if you can do that you will fall in line against all the other poisons plaguing our society at the moment. I call that wishful thinking because if that was true we would have jails, fines, and other forms of punishment.
 

Kung Fu

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You can change a society from laws imposed upon it or from the character of the people who inhabit it (and sometimes both).

Western society has separated church and state and the laws and standards are a mirror to the moral standards of the nation.

The church has not lived up to it's calling in recent times, characterised by the last of the seven churches in Revelation.


Where there is "me" centred Christianity rather than Christ centred, Laodocean Christians focus on their own lives and happiness and make little impact on society.

Jim Caviezel, who famously played Jesus in The Passion of the Christ, told university students that they must set themselves apart from this “corrupt generation” and “be saints.”

“You weren’t made to ‘fit in,’ my brothers and sisters. You were born to stand out. Set yourself apart from this corrupt generation. Be saints,” he said.
I actually like what you have to say here so I'll leave it be here.

Thanks for the discussion.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Just one final thought - English Law and The Bible...

A unifying factor

The Bible has been a significant component of English life for many centuries, particularly since the publication of the Authorised Version of the Bible in 1611, with which every citizen was expected to be familiar. Just as most people know television catch phrases today, so references to the Bible would be instantly recognised by almost everyone. It has contributed to developments in civil life, the arts and science.

Influence on the law

The Bible features heavily in the architecture and decoration of the Houses of Parliament, paying silent tribute to its significance in English jurisprudence. Many old parish churches still have copies of the Ten Commandments on the walls, underlining the importance of the Bible for providing the moral cohesion of society. Most British law is ultimately derived from the codes of law within the Bible, of which the Ten Commandments is pre-eminent. The equality of all people before the law is another of its legacies.

http://crossref-it.info/articles/73/bible-in-english-culture-the
 

Kung Fu

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Just one final thought - English Law and The Bible...

A unifying factor

The Bible has been a significant component of English life for many centuries, particularly since the publication of the Authorised Version of the Bible in 1611, with which every citizen was expected to be familiar. Just as most people know television catch phrases today, so references to the Bible would be instantly recognised by almost everyone. It has contributed to developments in civil life, the arts and science.

Influence on the law

The Bible features heavily in the architecture and decoration of the Houses of Parliament, paying silent tribute to its significance in English jurisprudence. Many old parish churches still have copies of the Ten Commandments on the walls, underlining the importance of the Bible for providing the moral cohesion of society. Most British law is ultimately derived from the codes of law within the Bible, of which the Ten Commandments is pre-eminent. The equality of all people before the law is another of its legacies.

http://crossref-it.info/articles/73/bible-in-english-culture-the
There are some more questions I want to ask you but I don't have the time right now. I'll ask them tomorrow.
 

Damien50

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Your reply never answered my simple question. I asked what does Christianity have to offer in terms of the poisons I spoke about that's ruining Western society and you replied with scripture that told me to love God and my neighbor.

It's very easy to say that loving God and and your neighbor will lead you to stay away from drinking excessively, from gambling with your savings, and etc. but we know that's simply not the truth. Humans need laws and regulations and without them civilization would cease to exist.

Dude, I'm not mocking you or belittling you. I simply want an answer to my question. All you had to say is that Christianity doesn't really have any laws or religious practices regarding the poisons you speak of and we could've left it at that.

In terms of what we're talking about, I would assume it's because loving your God and your neighbor are the highest of virtues and if you can do that you will fall in line against all the other poisons plaguing our society at the moment. I call that wishful thinking because if that was true we would have jails, fines, and other forms of punishment.
My reply answered your question in its entirety whether you acknowledge it or not.
 

Karlysymon

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@Golden Age
I agree with part of what you had to say. With Islam as the fastest growing religion in the US, should we expect positive changes a couple decades from now or is that a lofty expectation?

. Islam offers a framework and tells Muslims what to stay away from and the things it tells us to stay away from are the very same things ruining Western societies, which Christianity doesn't really speak on because the core beliefs and foundation of Christianity is shaky and weak.
The last sentences actually made me laugh. Christianity does address the things you are talking about but "Do as thou wilt" is a mantra that appeals to most hence the decadence. I will add that it was interesting to note that the former AfD party member that converted to Islam listed women-ordination (a hot button issue) as one of the reasons for his apostasy (its not biblically supported BTW).
The other point to consider is that a pious society isn't favourable to the interests of oligarchs. A decadent society that consumes stuff that's harmful to the body and soul is a gold mine. So its in the interest of oligarchs to vigorously promote decadence, regardless of whether any faith is weak or strong.
 
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Does Christianity allow you to drink alcohol?
Does Christianity allow you to use drugs?
Does Christianity allow you to gamble?

Islamic law would ban all those things because God commands us to stay away from such things. All that liberalism pansy propaganda that worked on Christians wouldn't work on Muslims.
To answer your questions....

1. Does Christianity allow you to drink alcohol?..........NO.

The Bible says not even to look at it:

“Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.”....Proverbs 23:31

2. Does Christianity allow you to use drugs?.....NO.

The Bible says to remain sober:

“Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.”....1 Timothy 3:11

“That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.”......Titus 2:2

3. Does Christianity allow you to gamble?.....NO

The Bible says not to covet, not to chase riches, and to work & earn your money.

“And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.”.....Luke 12:15

“But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.”.....1 Timothy 6:9

“He that loveth silver shall not be satisfied with silver; nor he that loveth abundance with increase: this is also vanity.”.....Ecclesiastes 5:10

“Wealth gotten by vanity shall be diminished: but he that gathereth by labour shall increase.”......Proverbs 13:11
 

Thunderian

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You'll find out when the angel of death comes knocking on your door, that your soul took an oath prior to your current existence, testifying there is only one God and he has and never will have any partners.
What is your scriptural authority for believing that my soul took an oath prior to my current existence?

There is only one God, I do agree on that. Deuteronomy 6:4 says, "The Lord our God is one." Jesus Christ declared in John 10:30, "I and my Father are one." The Bible never says God and Jesus are partners. It's a misunderstanding to describe them that way. Jesus is God in the form of a man. Fully God, yet fully man. Not a partner, but the principal.

Does it make a difference to you, that the Bible does not really say that Jesus Christ is God's partner? It would be a shame to deny God's salvation for you, because you misunderstand what the Bible is really saying about him.

Your attachment to Jesus, peace be upon him is admirable but he is no way part of God or God himself.
But the Bible says he is God. Jesus Christ accepted worship, which only God can do. One of the reasons the Pharisees wanted him dead is because he said that he was the God of Abraham. His disciples and his followers believed him to be God, and he never once told them they were wrong. Jesus Christ is either God, or he was a blasphemer and not worthy to be considered even a prophet. Do you reject Jesus Christ, knowing that he claimed to be God? I don't see how you can't.

Your faith is entirely reliant on accepting Jesus either as God or a form of God, so Islam will never be for you unless you see the issues with elevating a human (an extraordinary human blessed by God as were all the other prophets) to the status of the creator.
How can you and other Muslims still deny that Jesus Christ is God, now that you know that the Bible says he is not a partner to God, as you have been mistakenly believing for all these years? How can you accept him as a prophet of Islam, when by his own words and actions he would be considered a blasphemer?

You choose Christianity and we choose Islam. We'll all find out in the afterlife.
It would be nice if we were both right, but it's a very sad thing to see Muslims rejecting Jesus Christ because another Muslim explained the Bible to them wrong. One thing that is clear from my conversations with followers of Islam is that they reject Jesus Christ because someone else told them to, not because they learned for themselves who he really is.
 
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What is your scriptural authority for believing that my soul took an oath prior to my current existence?

There is only one God, I do agree on that. Deuteronomy 6:4 says, "The Lord our God is one." Jesus Christ declared in John 10:30, "I and my Father are one." The Bible never says God and Jesus are partners. It's a misunderstanding to describe them that way. Jesus is God in the form of a man. Fully God, yet fully man. Not a partner, but the principal.

Does it make a difference to you, that the Bible does not really say that Jesus Christ is God's partner? It would be a shame to deny God's salvation for you, because you misunderstand what the Bible is really saying about him.



But the Bible says he is God. Jesus Christ accepted worship, which only God can do. One of the reasons the Pharisees wanted him dead is because he said that he was the God of Abraham. His disciples and his followers believed him to be God, and he never once told them they were wrong. Jesus Christ is either God, or he was a blasphemer and not worthy to be considered even a prophet. Do you reject Jesus Christ, knowing that he claimed to be God? I don't see how you can't.



How can you and other Muslims still deny that Jesus Christ is God, now that you know that the Bible says he is not a partner to God, as you have been mistakenly believing for all these years? How can you accept him as a prophet of Islam, when by his own words and actions he would be considered a blasphemer?



It would be nice if we were both right, but it's a very sad thing to see Muslims rejecting Jesus Christ because another Muslim explained the Bible to them wrong. One thing that is clear from my conversations with followers of Islam is that they reject Jesus Christ because someone else told them to, not because they learned for themselves who he really is.
Don’t listen to them. All religions are terrible
 

Daciple

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So looking over this Thread, I havent seen much in the way of Muslims making a case for others (not even Thunder) to want to convert to Islam. Instead I see them basically calling it a bait thread and then deflecting into other arguments, mainly trying to say Christianity is bad. I really do not understand why it is that any and every single thread that is created to deal with a topic in Islam or about the whole of Islam is ALWAYS turned on its head and immediately spun to try and speak about Christianity. Is it not possible for Muslims to speak solely of Islam, its precepts, principals, goodness and faults without always trying to divert into some form of lets talk about the ills of Christianity?

More often than not when critiques of Christianity come about, they are dealt with, and I am sure if a Muslim would have created an identical thread saying tell me a Muslim what Christianity offers that Islam doesnt, there would be dozens of threads by all the Christians here stating just how much more there is available in Christianity than Islam, mainly focused around the wonderful personal relationship one has with Christ which Islam in no way can offer. There would be Scriptures to back everything up, it would probably be pages long of testimonies of what Christ has done with us starting with offering us Salvation by Grace thru Faith and going on from there with just how many blessings we have received from God when we were Born Again.

It amazes me that there NOTHING like this in this thread, already 3 pages in and not one testimony, not one thing that would ever cause anyone let alone a Christian have a desire to seek out Allah or what Islam offers. At best what we see is a call of what Christianity doesnt offer, which if I boil down Kung Fu argument, it isnt a Theocracy. He is being willfully blind to the fact that Christianity itself does condemn many of the same things as Islam does, specifically all the vices he brought up, but then says it doesnt enforce them, as Islam does. Whats the real difference between Christianity and Islam in this specific example?

Islam is a Theocracy that mandates a Law and a penalty by corrupted human beings enforced upon others, where as Christianity relies on individual restraint, being lead by the Spirit, and the Church and Godly chastising for penalty. Christianity isnt looking be a Theocracy, but to say that Christianity doesnt offer the same refuge from these vices as Islam does is utter nonsense. Go out and speak to the dozens of Christians who used to participate in these Sinful activities and then when the got Born Again have stop doing them!!! If there wasnt something that was causing them to stop participating in these vices then why are SOOO many testimonies of Christians filled to the brim with them repenting from the exact vices you list?

I for one can testify to repenting from those vices, my Church has dozens of people who once were gambling sex fiends who were drinking and doing drugs all the time, to straight up preachers of the Gospel who no longer participate in any of that stuff!! And the fact that is a LAW in Islam, with fear of retribution, that one is trying to uphold as superior to Christianity in my view actually shows the clear difference in Islam and Christianity and shows why Christianity offers something Islam doesnt.

In Islam you dont do this or that because it is Law and you might either be physically hurt for doing so, or because God will punish you, in Christianity people stop doing it because there is an actual CHANGE that happens to them. They are Born Again and all the sudden desires of the flesh begin to disappear and a desire for Godly things comes forth!!! Its because of the Love of God and Christ and the Supernatural Change and death of the Old Man and birth of the New Man that takes place makes us WANT to stop all those things. Also if we continue in them we literally grieve the Holy Spirit that is now indwelling in us, and we become miserable!! We dont NEED a Theocratic Law with men trying to punish us as they desire and using it for their own power and Self Righteousness to cause us to "stay in line". We have the Living God Himself speaking to us, moving in us, uplifting or grieving us causing us to do His Will. Big massive difference...

So maybe so Muslims would like to actually address why anyone would want to be a Muslim, so far I havent seen one post that in anyway motivates me to desire what Islam could offer. I do hope that if someone stumbles across this post, they can see the main thing that would motivate you to come to Christ, and that is to have that personal loving relationship with the Creator of All Things and to know that He Himself loved you enough to do everything ever needed to offer you salvation and experience a love that cant be written or spoken about, and all you have to do is accept Him by Faith thru Grace and then you will have God Himself living inside of you, guiding you and most of all that amazing wonderful relationship of joy peace and love!!!
 
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