What’s the Muslim perspective on the occupation of Palestine?

TrollingTroubles

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You cant answer the basic question regarding Aisha'a age or offer a defense of your faulty ositions... so your go-to pivot is to question my worship? There aint a hadeeth you wont violate is there?
I don’t think anyone can answer that question with confidence. I know the classical argument about how the ahadeeth about the age of Aisha came from 5 students of Hisham Ibn Urwa while he was in Iraq, and therefore text is unreliable because Hisham Ibn Urwa had reached an old age and had dementia, as well as problems with remembering details, therefore all his students who reported from him in Iraq are also unreliable (isnad crumbles and so does matn). That would seem to put the age 6 marriage and age 9 comsummation argument you in the trash. However, it doesn’t actually debunk the idea that she could have been that age. There are plenty of rebuttals to your argument, but let’s be really honest mate. That’s not your issue.

As you’ve stated earlier, you are having problems reconciling your idea of moral normality with that of the 7th century. So why are you playing the hadeeth card? Because it’s convenient? I’m here to let you know it’s anything but convenient. You will not be able to objectively prove anything about the age of Aisha using the ahadeeth, you will only be able to come up with an approximation for the minimum and maximum age of Aisha from the hadeeth. Nothing objective. Let’s not forget, the Arabs never celebrated birthdays or even kept a record of when babies were born like we do today. Your whole premise, is wrong. It’s premature and hinging on the futility of your flawed understanding of the hadeeth.

in an earlier post I asked if you was a mufti to try to make you realise how underwhelming your understanding is. You replied with “I’m not mufti, Shia, Sunni, Sufi” etc and I actually laughed because the title “mufti” doesn’t fall within a sect. A mufti is actually the highest accolade a scholar can reach in Islam and you thought it was a sect. Mate, if you are this green around the ears when it comes to this stuff, you shouldn’t be here taking the high ground. Coz it’s embarrassing seeing you make a right tit out of yourself.
 

InfoHarb

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You cant answer the basic question regarding Aisha'a age or offer a defense of your faulty ositions... so your go-to pivot is to question my worship? There aint a hadeeth you wont violate is there?
It's strange how you avoid answering such basic questions on salaat. I don't think you're a Muslim.
 

InfoHarb

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I am aware of the title Mufti's definition. I was just kidding around/looking for common ground but perhaps it wasnt the moment for humor. I am well aware of the meaning of Mufti and various historical figures who bore the title, such as Amin al-Husseini.

I am not a Mufti, Sufi, Shiite, Wahahbist, Salafist or etc. I am not Middle Eastern or from a Muslim state.
This doesn't even make sense as a joke. I don't think this was a joke. Where is the joke? Mufti is a sect of Islam? Jokes are supposed to have some underlying element of truth- that's what makes the joke funny. Where is the underlying element of truth- is the underlying message that Mufti is a sect? The only way I could see it being a joke is if the underlying message is that Islam is a joke and that it makes sense to put "Mufti" and these other terms with each other out of contempt for Islam- kind of like when a racist person does the "ching chong" thing and makes fun of the Chinese language.
 
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TrollingTroubles

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I sort of scrolled past this post very briefly and I didn't catch that. It seems this person really thought "Mufti" is a sect of Islam.
Curveball question, designed to expose whether he/she really knows what they are talking about.

Turns out, they don’t. They’re exhibiting classic signs of “Dunning Kruger” syndrome.
 

TempestOfTempo

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I don’t think anyone can answer that question with confidence. I know the classical argument about how the ahadeeth about the age of Aisha came from 5 students of Hisham Ibn Urwa while he was in Iraq, and therefore text is unreliable because Hisham Ibn Urwa had reached an old age and had dementia, as well as problems with remembering details, therefore all his students who reported from him in Iraq are also unreliable (isnad crumbles and so does matn). That would seem to put the age 6 marriage and age 9 comsummation argument you in the trash. However, it doesn’t actually debunk the idea that she could have been that age. There are plenty of rebuttals to your argument, but let’s be really honest mate. That’s not your issue.

As you’ve stated earlier, you are having problems reconciling your idea of moral normality with that of the 7th century. So why are you playing the hadeeth card? Because it’s convenient? I’m here to let you know it’s anything but convenient. You will not be able to objectively prove anything about the age of Aisha using the ahadeeth, you will only be able to come up with an approximation for the minimum and maximum age of Aisha from the hadeeth. Nothing objective. Let’s not forget, the Arabs never celebrated birthdays or even kept a record of when babies were born like we do today. Your whole premise, is wrong. It’s premature and hinging on the futility of your flawed understanding of the hadeeth.

in an earlier post I asked if you was a mufti to try to make you realise how underwhelming your understanding is. You replied with “I’m not mufti, Shia, Sunni, Sufi” etc and I actually laughed because the title “mufti” doesn’t fall within a sect. A mufti is actually the highest accolade a scholar can reach in Islam and you thought it was a sect. Mate, if you are this green around the ears when it comes to this stuff, you shouldn’t be here taking the high ground. Coz it’s embarrassing seeing you make a right tit out of yourself.
You just stated the sum total of this. Hadeeth cannot be relied upon to prove Aisha'a age was 6-9. yet as usual, your camp conveniently refuses to address the scholars and researchers who have utilized both hadeeth science and accepted, modern chronological methodology to calculate the closest approximation we can produce to be in the 17-19 range. Your camp simply ignores that evidence or dismiss it while simultainiously failing to debunk it. After all of that, you people response is "Let grown men keep "marrying" and raping little children, girls who are not even aged in double digits because..." Either because you dont want to let your security blanket/get-out-of-jail-free-via hadeeth & fatwa card go or because you actual approve of/engage in grown men doing these activities with children. Thats it.

So by your estimation, my "issue" aint exactly what I have been addressing in as clear of terms possible this entire time... its that I'm "having problems reconciling your idea of moral normality with that of the 7th century" I have no such issues. The evidence that has been presented proving Muhammed did not engage in these activities is rock-solid compared to the excuses saying he did. So my "issue" is with Muslims who rely on a faulty , blasphemous justification to engage in child r*pe when Muhamed was clearly not the sort of man who engaged in such behavior. Thats my issue... and when I respectfully ask questions, instead of replying with reason and evidence, people come unhinged. Its obvious why.

I am aware of the title Mufti's definition. I was just kidding around/looking for common ground but perhaps it wasnt the moment for humor. I am well aware of the meaning of Mufti and various historical figures who bore the title, such as Amin al-Husseini.
 

TempestOfTempo

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It's strange how you avoid answering such basic questions on salaat. I don't think you're a Muslim.
Its a lot stranger how you all keep avoiding the question regarding the masses of moderm "Muslim" men who rely on these faulty fatwa's and hadeeth interpretations to engage in child r*pe. Do you, or do you not, support the epidemic of child r*pe in the Muslim world via this hadeeth? Its a simple yes or no... do you belive that this hadeeth is correct and should continue to be implemented today? You cant have it both ways, a decision must be made... whats your belief on the issue?

As for me personally, I dont care what you belive about me. You set up an insulting, arbitrary hoop for me to jump through and when I rejected it, you just insult me and question my faith anyway... no thanks.
 

TrollingTroubles

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You just stated the sum total of this. Hadeeth cannot be relied upon to prove Aisha'a age was 6-9. yet as usual, your camp conveniently refuses to address the scholars and researchers who have utilized both hadeeth science and accepted, modern chronological methodology to calculate the closest approximation we can produce to be in the 17-19 range. Your camp simply ignores that evidence or dismiss it while simultainiously failing to debunk it. After all of that, you people response is "Let grown men keep "marrying" and raping little children, girls who are not even aged in double digits because..." Either because you dont want to let your security blanket/get-out-of-jail-free-via hadeeth & fatwa card go or because you actual approve of/engage in grown men doing these activities with children. Thats it.

So by your estimation, my "issue" aint exactly what I have been addressing in as clear of terms possible this entire time... its that I'm "having problems reconciling your idea of moral normality with that of the 7th century" I have no such issues. The evidence that has been presented proving Muhammed did not engage in these activities is rock-solid compared to the excuses saying he did. So my "issue" is with Muslims who rely on a faulty , blasphemous justification to engage in child r*pe when Muhamed was clearly not the sort of man who engaged in such behavior. Thats my issue... and when I respectfully ask questions, instead of replying with reason and evidence, people come unhinged. Its obvious why.

I am aware of the title Mufti's definition. I was just kidding around/looking for common ground but perhaps it wasnt the moment for humor. I am well aware of the meaning of Mufti and various historical figures who bore the title, such as Amin al-Husseini.
There are so many epistemological inconsistencies with you man.

I’m here trying to make you see sense but you just want to be right.

I highly doubt you have any real understanding of Islam at all now and am inclined to agree with Infoharb and Daze and the others. And yeah, OK, since you pointed it out to me - I’ll happily be in their camp on this and side with common sense and contextual process.

You do you dude, stick with the fallacies and display your Dunning Kruger effect like a dance. I’m sure you love it.
 

TrollingTroubles

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Its a lot stranger how you all keep avoiding the question regarding the masses of moderm "Muslim" men who rely on these faulty fatwa's and hadeeth interpretations to engage in child r*pe.
Since you are so hung up on hadeeth brav, and keep shouting “r*pe” show me one hadeeth in which Aisha clearly claims that her consummation wasn’t consensual. Should be easy for you, since more ahadeeth were narrated from Aisha than anyone else, this earns her the honoured title of “Mother of the believers”. So yeah, prove your point man. I know you can’t. Coz you haven’t even dealt with my previous post where I mentioned the problematic issue of Hisham Ibn Urwa (and his students) and how that doesn’t go any way to proving she was 19.

but let’s take it one step further. I also mentioned in that post how the Arabs didn’t record birthdays. You must surely know that the Arabs prior to the migration didn’t have a numerical year system in their calendar. They measured the years by events. For example - the year the prophet was born was the year of the elephant. Right? Right!!! Let’s lead you to some humbleness.

Bukhari, known as the most authentic collection of ahadeeth which are graded as sahih - or in English - correct.

In Bukhari, something as rudimentary as the number of years the makki period (prior to migration the number of years of revelation) was, is contested.

In Bukhari:

1) there are several sahih hadeeth which claim it was 10 years

2) there are several sahih hadeeth which claim it was 13 years

3) there are several sahih hadeeth which claim it was 15 years

Which one is true? And how do you know it is true if all three contradict each other?

remember - this is an exercise to show you the futility of your flawed understanding of the hadeeth sciences. I’ve only studied this stuff for 6 weeks and it’s blowing my mind. I have a great teacher. You have - google.
remember - this is an exercise to show you the futility of your flawed understanding of the hadeeth sciences. I’ve only studied this stuff for 6 weeks and it’s blowing my mind. I have a great teacher. You have - google.

Answer the question: Which one is true? And how do you know it is true if all three contradict each other?
 
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TempestOfTempo

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There are so many epistemological inconsistencies with you man.

I’m here trying to make you see sense but you just want to be right.

I highly doubt you have any real understanding of Islam at all now and am inclined to agree with Infoharb and Daze and the others. And yeah, OK, since you pointed it out to me - I’ll happily be in their camp on this and side with common sense and contextual process.

You do you dude, stick with the fallacies and display your Dunning Kruger effect like a dance. I’m sure you love it.
You just dropped two posts typing around weather or not the hadeeth is true. Because if it is true (as you contend) that means you support the current epidemic of ped activity and child-r*pe masquerading as sunnah in the modern, born-and-bred Muslims world. You cant square this circle, yet you cant leave it alone either. But you dont have to make a bunch of accusations and attempt to have me chasing down your catch-22 arguments...

This is a very short video which does not even bring up all of the evidence, they keep it very basic. All you have to do is prove them wrong. Instead of becoming a keyboard warrior, insulting you or questioning your faith, I will just wait and see how you address the video...
 

TrollingTroubles

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You just dropped two posts typing around weather or not the hadeeth is true. Because if it is true (as you contend) that means you support the current epidemic of ped activity and child-r*pe masquerading as sunnah in the modern, born-and-bred Muslims world. You cant square this circle, yet you cant leave it alone either. But you dont have to make a bunch of accusations and attempt to have me chasing down your catch-22 arguments...

This is a very short video which does not even bring up all of the evidence, they keep it very basic. All you have to do is prove them wrong. Instead of becoming a keyboard warrior, insulting you or questioning your faith, I will just wait and see how you address the video...
There’s something really off about you man. You say the opposite of what I write. I think you may be on the autism spectrum… not the good kind either.
 

InfoHarb

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I clicked on the channel that Tempest linked- "The British Muslim". I was curious to see who on earth it is that Tempest is listening to. The British Muslim is a so-called "Quranist" (I put "Quranist" because "Quranists" don't even follow the Quran- to follow the Quran, you have to follow the Sunnah). The channel has another video called "The Argument For Quran Only Islam (No Hadith)".

"Quranism" is a joke. My neighbor is a "Quranist". The man has been pushing "Quranism" for years and to this day he can't even pray salaat.

@TempestOfTempo if you are actually a Muslim and not just pretending to be one online.... how many rakahs are in Maghrib and how do you know how many rakahs are in Maghrib- on what source, what authority, how do you know how many rakahs to pray in Maghrib? Or do you not pray salaat?
I asked very simple questions and Tempest refused to answer. What appears to be the case is that Tempest can't even answer basic questions about salaat. Then there's him seeming to think "mufti" is a sect of Islam. I think this person is clearly a person making up his own fake version of Islam and who doesn't even have a basic understanding of the religion and yet has this inexplicable arrogance.

I don't think it's worth wasting time debating this person. I don't think this person even knows how to pray salaat. The person ducked basic questions about salaat. I didn't ask any super controversial stuff- just basic questions about salaat, very basic stuff.
 

Daze

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I clicked on the channel that Tempest linked- "The British Muslim". I was curious to see who on earth it is that Tempest is listening to. The British Muslim is a so-called "Quranist" (I put "Quranist" because "Quranists" don't even follow the Quran- to follow the Quran, you have to follow the Sunnah). The channel has another video called "The Argument For Quran Only Islam (No Hadith)".

"Quranism" is a joke. My neighbor is a "Quranist". The man has been pushing "Quranism" for years and to this day he can't even pray salaat.



I asked very simple questions and Tempest refused to answer. What appears to be the case is that Tempest can't even answer basic questions about salaat. Then there's him seeming to think "mufti" is a sect of Islam. I think this person is clearly a person making up his own fake version of Islam and who doesn't even have a basic understanding of the religion and yet has this inexplicable arrogance.

I don't think it's worth wasting time debating this person. I don't think this person even knows how to pray salaat. The person ducked basic questions about salaat. I didn't ask any super controversial stuff- just basic questions about salaat, very basic stuff.
I agree, not only are Quranists a joke, they are a sign of the hour. I made a post about it not to long ago in my signs thread.

Pretty ignorant Muslims can think mufti is a sect i suppose? At least new converts. But for how long? I mean, come on. This is like thinking "Bishop" or "Rabbi" is a sect.

It is clear this guy is not a Muslim. Its like someone insulting Jesus but claiming to be a Christian. As this is what Tempo does. Can a man who insults Moses claim to be Jewish?

Yes, God knows best.. but with the evidence at hand?... He literally calls the Prophet of Islam (saw) a p***phile. Prophets are on another level, they are thee example. Anyone who degrades them is clearly not seeking God.

O you who have believed, do not take as intimates those other than yourselves [i.e., believers], for they will not spare you [any] ruin. They wish you would have hardship.
Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater. We have certainly made clear to you the signs, if you will use reason. (3:118)

It is not hard to tell between those looking for truth, and those with an ax to grind.
 

TempestOfTempo

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There’s something really off about you man. You say the opposite of what I write. I think you may be on the autism spectrum… not the good kind either.
You, Daze and co. with your arm-chair, digital diagnosis lol What does hadeeth say about such behavior? Either you know and you willfully still engage in that which has been prescribed as haraam... or you have a very selective knowledge of hadeeth. Either way, how convenient for you all... you get to violate your own code of ethics in such a public manner... its convenient for the rest of us because you expose yourselves in the process.
 

TempestOfTempo

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I clicked on the channel that Tempest linked- "The British Muslim". I was curious to see who on earth it is that Tempest is listening to. The British Muslim is a so-called "Quranist" (I put "Quranist" because "Quranists" don't even follow the Quran- to follow the Quran, you have to follow the Sunnah). The channel has another video called "The Argument For Quran Only Islam (No Hadith)".

"Quranism" is a joke. My neighbor is a "Quranist". The man has been pushing "Quranism" for years and to this day he can't even pray salaat.



I asked very simple questions and Tempest refused to answer. What appears to be the case is that Tempest can't even answer basic questions about salaat. Then there's him seeming to think "mufti" is a sect of Islam. I think this person is clearly a person making up his own fake version of Islam and who doesn't even have a basic understanding of the religion and yet has this inexplicable arrogance.

I don't think it's worth wasting time debating this person. I don't think this person even knows how to pray salaat. The person ducked basic questions about salaat. I didn't ask any super controversial stuff- just basic questions about salaat, very basic stuff.
I dont really mind your deficient attacks on here because as I stated to your comrade, you expose yourself... and not much else. Everyone can see for themselves that I have been addressing Islamic/Muslim issues for quite a while here. When I handle the Islam-haters, your clique rallies around me... as soon as I post something you have contention with, you IMMEDIATELY shift to accusations. Does not matter much to me as anyone who cares to can read my posting history and see that I clearly understand salaat and terms such as "mufti" and have demonstrated as such for quite a while here.

Everyone can also see that you made yet ANOTHER post where you duck and dodge around the issue of child-r*pe being sanctioned by faulty "Muslim" jurisprudence via abuse of hadeeth. Your crowd simply refuses to address the issue, yet you just cant let it go either... Anyone who reads our interactions can see this for themselves. Instead of your crackpot bio of the video producer, how about you address their contentions? Its all laid out for you in a simple 6-minute video...

So go ahead, now is your time to shine and dazzle your peers in the dunce-cap section, feel free to address what the video poster presented.
 

TempestOfTempo

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I agree, not only are Quranists a joke, they are a sign of the hour. I made a post about it not to long ago in my signs thread.

Pretty ignorant Muslims can think mufti is a sect i suppose? At least new converts. But for how long? I mean, come on. This is like thinking "Bishop" or "Rabbi" is a sect.

It is clear this guy is not a Muslim. Its like someone insulting Jesus but claiming to be a Christian. As this is what Tempo does. Can a man who insults Moses claim to be Jewish?

Yes, God knows best.. but with the evidence at hand?... He literally calls the Prophet of Islam (saw) a p***phile. Prophets are on another level, they are thee example. Anyone who degrades them is clearly not seeking God.

O you who have believed, do not take as intimates those other than yourselves [i.e., believers], for they will not spare you [any] ruin. They wish you would have hardship. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater. We have certainly made clear to you the signs, if you will use reason. (3:118)

It is not hard to tell between those looking for truth, and those with an ax to grind.
You and your crew here are limping around on these forums asking to involve yourself with other posters "demons" and trying to convince people that Allah is the celestial "father". You are all about as lost and fake as it gets...

Edit: By this point everyone outside of your clown car can see Im not accusing Muhammed of being a p***phile... I have been defending him from people such as yourself and the rest of your brain-drain posse who are LITERALLY calling him a p***phile and trying to justify such a horrendous lie with "Well, I'd like to believe that was the norm back then... and since Im stating that Muhammed did it back then, its ok to still engage in this shameful practice now" Its clear, you cant address that short video because you have no leg to stand on here, Islamic or otherwise.
 

InfoHarb

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I dont really mind your deficient attacks on here because as I stated to your comrade, you expose yourself... and not much else. Everyone can see for themselves that I have been addressing Islamic/Muslim issues for quite a while here. When I handle the Islam-haters, your clique rallies around me... as soon as I post something you have contention with, you IMMEDIATELY shift to accusations. Does not matter much to me as anyone who cares to can read my posting history and see that I clearly understand salaat and terms such as "mufti" and have demonstrated as such for quite a while here.

Everyone can also see that you made yet ANOTHER post where you duck and dodge around the issue of child-r*pe being sanctioned by faulty "Muslim" jurisprudence via abuse of hadeeth. Your crowd simply refuses to address the issue, yet you just cant let it go either... Anyone who reads our interactions can see this for themselves. Instead of your crackpot bio of the video producer, how about you address their contentions? Its all laid out for you in a simple 6-minute video...

So go ahead, now is your time to shine and dazzle your peers in the dunce-cap section, feel free to address what the video poster presented.
Muslims: *post about basically anything*
TempestOfTempo: "age of Aisha!!!!!" "age of Aisha!!!!!"
InfoHarb: "how many rakat are in Maghrib?"
TempestOfTempo: "age of Aisha!!! all 99% of Muslims who aren't hadith rejectors support child marriage!"

I have no problem addressing the age of Aisha thing. I've already done it. It's like I could ask you what is two plus two and you'll start ranting about the age of Aisha thing. If you look at your posts, it's like half of your recent posts are about the age of Aisha, it's like it's the only subject in Islam you talk about. I can ask you about something totally unrelated, you ignore the issue and you start ranting about Aisha.

I'm not interested in debating with you. It is a waste of time.
 

TempestOfTempo

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Muslims: *post about basically anything*
TempestOfTempo: "age of Aisha!!!!!" "age of Aisha!!!!!"
InfoHarb: "how many rakat are in Maghrib?"
TempestOfTempo: "age of Aisha!!! all 99% of Muslims who aren't hadith rejectors support child marriage!"

I have no problem addressing the age of Aisha thing. I've already done it. It's like I could ask you what is two plus two and you'll start ranting about the age of Aisha thing. If you look at your posts, it's like half of your recent posts are about the age of Aisha, it's like it's the only subject in Islam you talk about. I can ask you about something totally unrelated, you ignore the issue and you start ranting about Aisha.

I'm not interested in debating with you. It is a waste of time.
I have been on this forums board for years, with a large potion of my comments involving Islam. Your convenient false-narrative is recognized and dismissed.

Your Crowd: "Lets "debate" aka lets harass Christians and badmouth other Muslims!"
Me: "Imdown to discuss problems within Muslim communities instead."
Yall: "WHAT?! Heres a bunch of complainants I have about non-Muslims!"
Me: "How about the controversy surrounding Aisha's age at the time of her marriage?"
Yall: "Ive already answered that SOOOOO many times before!"
Me: "Then it should be easy for you to address the topic here."
Yall "Here are some insulting, arbitrary demands in the form of a quiz, if you dont answer them exactly as we'd like... YOU AINT NO MUSLIM!"
Me: "How about you just post the info you said you already have and stop trying to convince people that Allah is our "Father"?"
Yall: "I have no problem addressing the age thing"
Me: "Ok Im waiting for your response"
Yall: "Im not interested in debating you, its a waste of time!"
 

Lalas

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A frantic joy that this gift of God has happened and the path to the ultimate solution of the age-old wider Jews-Arab conflict has been unlocked.

The same perspective as on the other side.

On both sides are human-trolls mostly
 
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