Incorrect. The Quran speaks about Jesus as well.Etagloc, the only place you learn about Jesus and what Jesus did etc. IS the New Testament... you can't separate the two!
Incorrect. The Quran speaks about Jesus as well.Etagloc, the only place you learn about Jesus and what Jesus did etc. IS the New Testament... you can't separate the two!
I would ask James what he really thought about Paul.
Why not ask Jesus?
I already asked him. I don't pray to dead saints so I haven't asked James yet
To be truthful we are still in the middle of that conversation. As I am sure you know, Jesus often answered questions with another question...he rarely gave a direct straight forward answer, but he always lead the discussion to encourage people to seek and understand for themselves and guide them in the right direction. Answers are more life changing when we have to put some effort into finding them.l guess he didn't reply back
Hi @Tanya
Do you think that any of our "misconceptions about wicca" can be traced to St. Paul's admonitions against witchcraft, divination, etc., and to Moses' commandments before that? If so, when you say that you "love" Paul, does that mean that you think his preaching should be obeyed, or do you just love him on some academic or other level?
A non-Christian text written at least 500 years AFTER the last book of New Testament is disqualified.Incorrect. The Quran speaks about Jesus as well.
But Paul doesn't contradict anything Jesus or the apostles said.@Artful Revealer ....from the who would you talk to in heaven thread....
To be truthful we are still in the middle of that conversation. As I am sure you know, Jesus often answered questions with another question...he rarely gave a direct straight forward answer, but he always lead the discussion to encourage people to seek and understand for themselves and guide them in the right direction. Answers are more life changing when we have to put some effort into finding them.
This forum serves as a place for me to "think out loud" and express in words the thoughts and ideas I am wrestling through. It's human nature when we make a radical change in our paradigm to follow a pendulum cycle. We swing from one extreme to another before the pendulum eventually comes to rest in the middle somewhere.
I believe my pendulum on the subject of Paul reached it's maximum swing a little while ago and it is back towards finding the middle ground. I do think Paul's writings were meant by God to be in the Bible as they bring important insight into the growth and evolution of Chrisitianity, both good and bad. I do think Paul was an incredibly gifted person and he was used by God to spread the gospel. But God uses imperfect people (like me) all the time to serve his purposes. Paul was not infallible, nor are his writings.
I do not believe the New Testament writers (except John when he wrote the book of Revelation) ever believed the letters they were writing would one day be considered the word of God. Paul himself makes this very clear many times in his writings. I do believe that James, Peter and John had significant theological/doctrinal differences with Paul. But nobody has perfect theology or doctrine. My presonal choice is to err on the side of those who walked with Jesus in the flesh and were discipled directly be Jesus. I am not satisfied with the standard convulted logic used to try to try to prove that the disciples and Paul were not at odds on many doctrinal issues. There is nothing new under the sun and the first century church did not agree on every point of doctrine just as the church today does not.
Again my personal conviction is that when the words credited to Paul appear to me to contradict the words of Jesus and the disciples I will always default to Jesus and the disciples over Paul. It does not mean that I think anyone who believes in Paul is not a Christian or not in fellowship with God. We can always agree to disagree and in the ages to come we will all find out the truth...hence my future question to James of how he really felt about Paul. It would not be a yes or no question and answer. It would be a true curiousity of how he viewed their doctrinal differences and what that meant as far as James' perspective on Paul's ministry as a whole. I can disagree with someone else's doctrine but still recognize that God is using them for his purposes. I'm begining to think that is how Peter, James and John might have viewed Paul.
I kind of look at like the book of Galatians and the Book of James was Paul and James version of how we debate doctrinal issues on this forum. Granted Paul and James has a much wider sphere of influence then we do and I doubt that anyone will be discussing our debates 2000 years from now!
I really appreciate you pointing this out. I absolutely agree that this is a primary reason that forums like this are useful. Writing is a great way to grow spiritually I think.This forum serves as a place for me to "think out loud" and express in words the thoughts and ideas I am wrestling through. It's human nature when we make a radical change in our paradigm to follow a pendulum cycle. We swing from one extreme to another before the pendulum eventually comes to rest in the middle somewhere.
After talking with a few and realizing that Wicca is not the right path and neither was walking away from the Lord, I have decided to no longer pursue it. I wasn't practicing witchcraft or divination. I absolutely believe that his preaching should be obeyed and respected yes.Hi @Tanya
Do you think that any of our "misconceptions about wicca" can be traced to St. Paul's admonitions against witchcraft, divination, etc., and to Moses' commandments before that? If so, when you say that you "love" Paul, does that mean that you think his preaching should be obeyed, or do you just love him on some academic or other level?
That's cool. I hadn't read the "misconceptions" thread in its entirety, but thought I had heard you mention that you had an Ouija board and had tried, unsuccessfully (?), to use it, and I thought that a method of divination. Most of the wiccans it has simultaneously been my good and bad pleasure to know have been into some form of divination, including, usually, Tarot cards, and I find that incompatible with both Pauline and Mosaic instruction.After talking with a few and realizing that Wicca is not the right path and neither was walking away from the Lord, I have decided to no longer pursue it. I wasn't practicing witchcraft or divination. I absolutely believe that his preaching should be obeyed and respected yes.
I like the fact that Paul was a tireless evangelist to the gentiles, and, given that I am a gentile, that includes me. With that said, I often find myself in the unenviable position, in relation to Paul, as was Agrippa, when he said "almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian," with the emphasis, in my case, upon the word almost.Tanya said:I love Paul because when I read what he wrote in scripture, out of all the apostles, I could relate to him the most.
I hope you didn't mind my asking. This can sometimes be an overly personal board and I wondered how it was that you were able to balance a love of Paul with wicca. At any rate, I better understand now, even if I didn't necessarily need to be cured of anything.Tanya said:I hope that cures your curiosity about me.
I appreciate people who give me wise counsel as well. All the better when it can be found here, on this board, and elsewhere.Tanya said:I appreciate those who have given me wise counsel.
Well, I didn't know how else to put it . I kind of have an academic relationship with St. Paul, but I don't delude myself into thinking that that will gain me any points on Judgement Day.@Serveto academic level had me laughing lol.
Similarly to how christian texts were written decades after Jesus's supposed death so they also have no relevance? like how Paul saw the vision of Jesus way after that so does that have no relevance either? lmaoA non-Christian text written at least 500 years AFTER the last book of New Testament is disqualified.
No Muslim was present in 1st century AD, therefore Islamic beliefs have no relevance.
Ouch! Hardball lol.Manama, those people actually knew Jesus personally OR the apostles personally.
If Islamic texts are to be considered on the same level as New Testament texts, please show evidence that the self-proclaimed Muhammad was present in the 1st AD as an actual witness of Christ/ apostles, not half a millenium later.
The book comes from God not man. In that terms every old tale or event told in the Bible would be incorrect since its written way too later that time. It really not about Paul or the apostles, you said that Islamic texts do not matter about Jesus because they were written way later, in that terms Bible is as well. Either both work or none works.Manama, those people actually knew Jesus personally OR the apostles personally.
If Islamic texts are to be considered on the same level as New Testament texts, please show evidence that the self-proclaimed Muhammad was present in the 1st AD as an actual witness of Christ/ apostles, not half a millenium later.
Answers in bold^^^^That's cool. I hadn't read the "misconceptions" thread in its entirety, but thought I had heard you mention that you had an Ouija board and had tried, unsuccessfully (?), to use it, and I thought that a method of divination. Most of the wiccans it has simultaneously been my good and bad pleasure to know have been into some form of divination, including, usually, Tarot cards, and I find that incompatible with both Pauline and Mosaic instruction.
It was a poor and pathetic attempt at that. It was stupid of me.
I like the fact that Paul was a tireless evangelist to the gentiles, and, given that I am a gentile, that includes me. With that said, I often find myself in the unenviable position, in relation to Paul, as was Agrippa, when he said "almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian," with the emphasis, in my case, upon the word almost.
I hope you didn't mind my asking. This can sometimes be an overly personal board and I wondered how it was that you were able to balance a love of Paul with wicca. At any rate, I better understand now, even if I didn't necessarily need to be cured of anything.
Because you don't know me and because of that you didn't know I was in the process of rethinking, recanting and renouncing Wicca, that's why. There was no balance of a love for Paul and Wicca.
I appreciate people who give me wise counsel as well. All the better when it can be found here, on this board, and elsewhere.
Well, I didn't know how else to put it . I kind of have an academic relationship with St. Paul, but I don't delude myself into thinking that that will gain me any points on Judgement Day.
Thank you for responding, and, I might add, for the cure.
If the bible comes from man then the Quran cannot be trusted either. It *claims* to highly respect parts of the bible.The book comes from God not man. In that terms every old tale or event told in the Bible would be incorrect since its written way too later that time. It really not about Paul or the apostles, you said that Islamic texts do not matter about Jesus because they were written way later, in that terms Bible is as well. Either both work or none works.
Ephesians 2But Paul doesn't contradict anything Jesus or the apostles said.
If you disagree with that please give examples, using chapter and verse for both sides.
We believe in the Gospel of Jesus not Bible. We respect parts of Bible because it includes stuff from the Gospel.If the bible comes from man then the Quran cannot be trusted either. It *claims* to highly respect parts of the bible.
No, some modern scholars make those claims about the Old Testament. Archeology consistently backs up historical accounts of bible.
How is the passage from Ephesians not a description of the fulfillment of the law? What does it mean to fulfill the law then?Ephesians 2
For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Matthew 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.