Walking suspiciously amongst the TULIPs

[Red Sky at Morning]

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Calvinism is unbiblical.

 

[Todd]

I believe in the "I" and in part of the "U", but not the "T", "L", or "P".
Of course I believe the "I" is true for everyone in the ages to come and not just the elect in the age we currently live in.
I believe in God's side of the "U" that no one can choose God without him enabling them. but I also believe that the individual has a part in it also.
I'm on the fence about the "T" I believe we are all born in Sin, but I'm not sold on the belief that there is nothing inherently good in us, thus my inclination to reject the "T".
"L" is a down right lie. Jesus died for the sins of the entire world not just those who believe.
"P" isn't even worth debating, unless you are trying to make excuses not to follow God's will and ways.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Calvinism is unbiblical.

I agree - TULIP is more a series of philosophical propositions morphed into a doctrine. I don't identify as a Calvinist or an Arminian any more than I buy the Red / Blue paradigm in politics!

I think Andy Woods does a great job of taking a biblical stance with respect to Calvin and makes some great points (that was why I posted it up). I have had some good friends who "bought the tulip" and I have been pondering on where I stood on the issue ever since.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I believe in the "I" and in part of the "U", but not the "T", "L", or "P".
Of course I believe the "I" is true for everyone in the ages to come and not just the elect in the age we currently live in.
I believe in God's side of the "U" that no one can choose God without him enabling them. but I also believe that the individual has a part in it also.
I'm on the fence about the "T" I believe we are all born in Sin, but I'm not sold on the belief that there is nothing inherently good in us, thus my inclination to reject the "T".
"L" is a down right lie. Jesus died for the sins of the entire world not just those who believe.
"P" isn't even worth debating, unless you are trying to make excuses not to follow God's will and ways.

In the video, Andy describes himself as a "three and a half point" Calvinist. I think I find myself in a similar position.

Why does it matter? Because it colours how you see your own salvation and the attitude you have toward the lost. I.e. it matters that people think clearly on these issues!

For those who think we are talking about flower arranging, here are the main points for reference:-

"Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)​

Unconditional Election​

Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)​

Irresistible Grace​

Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)​

​

These five categories do not comprise Calvinism in totality. They simply represent some of its main points."

https://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

 

[JoChris]

It is only the "L" I have problem with, and probably always will. I can see logic of Calvinists' position when I read their key verses. I think they read the bible with Calvinist lenses though.

e.g. Calvinist perspective [John 3:16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[Arminian perspective] John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I scratch my head and think they are both true.
I have decided to put the puzzle of simultaneous "God has chosen who he has chosen" versus "man has full responsibility for choosing/ rejecting God" in the TOO HARD basket. I will let the theologians battle it out and wait for God to explain it all for me later in Heaven.

 

[Colonel Valerio]

Original sin is a disgusting idea and so is predestination. ( Predestination is however the only logical conclusion if you hold to the belief that God is all knowing, free will is incompatible with that belief, and if you don’t believe in free will then God is evil if he punishes you forever)

 

[JoChris]

Original sin is a disgusting idea and so is predestination. ( Predestination is however the only logical conclusion if you hold to the belief that God is all knowing, free will is incompatible with that belief, and if you don’t believe in free will then God is evil if he punishes you forever)

This was the best low-Christian-terminology explanation I could find. https://www.gotquestions.org/free-will.html

The doctrine of original sin is backed up in the bible AND real life.
Sin comes naturally. Nobody has to teach a toddler how to say "no", or how to hit another kid. I didn't teach my sons to lie.

 

[Colonel Valerio]

This was the best low-Christian-terminology explanation I could find. https://www.gotquestions.org/free-will.html

The doctrine of original sin is backed up in the bible AND real life.
Sin comes naturally. Nobody has to teach a toddler how to say "no", or how to hit another kid. I didn't teach my sons to lie.

Ill play. "Original Sin" is our animal nature. We have for whatever reason been cursed with self awareness- the knowledge of good and evil, but what makes us evil is our selfish animal natures, civilization has rendered our hunting impulses moot. You do know that the only reason our species exists is because of co-operation?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_Aid:_A_Factor_of_Evolution


Can you give me your own thoughts on freewill? I don't care what GotQuestions has to say. I am curious to what you believe on free will and a God who knows all things.

"I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind... "​

- Albert Einstein​

which is without saying that order is a human conception with no basis in reality

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Ill play. "Original Sin" is our animal nature. We have for whatever reason been cursed with self awareness- the knowledge of good and evil, but what makes us evil is our selfish animal natures, civilization has rendered our hunting impulses moot. You do know that the only reason our species exists is because of co-operation?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_Aid:_A_Factor_of_Evolution


Can you give me your own thoughts on freewill? I don't care what GotQuestions has to say. I am curious to what you believe on free will and a God who knows all things.

"I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind... "

- Albert Einstein

which is without saying that order is a human conception with no basis in reality

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/light-darkness.5041/

 

[JoChris]

Ill play. "Original Sin" is our animal nature. We have for whatever reason been cursed with self awareness- the knowledge of good and evil, but what makes us evil is our selfish animal natures, civilization has rendered our hunting impulses moot. You do know that the only reason our species exists is because of co-operation?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_Aid:_A_Factor_of_Evolution


Can you give me your own thoughts on freewill? I don't care what GotQuestions has to say. I am curious to what you believe on free will and a God who knows all things.

"I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind... "

- Albert Einstein

which is without saying that order is a human conception with no basis in reality

OK. I am slowly reading through the Old Testament, a chapter a day, looking for a commentary/ sermon on any verse that catches my attention.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+24&version=KJV
All these commandments RE treating other people:
if the Jewish people were "robots", if God removed all freedom of choice from His believers, then commandments would not have needed to be given.
Throughout the Old Testament the Jews CHOSE to disobey God (and got severely punished). When they CHOSE to repent (turn from sin, return to God) then God would forgive them etc.

God knows if I am going to sin. I will choose to sin or not, often feeling a tug at my conscience. He doesn't make me sin.

 

[Vytas]

It's not that i disagree with T.U.L.I.P. , but the way it's formulated leaves enough space for interpretation , or requires further explanation, like unfinished work, or law made with a hole to exploit it. Speaker is right, tweaking is required..

 

[Colonel Valerio]

OK. I am slowly reading through the Old Testament, a chapter a day, looking for a commentary/ sermon on any verse that catches my attention.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+24&version=KJV
All these commandments RE treating other people:
if the Jewish people were "robots", if God removed all freedom of choice from His believers, then commandments would not have needed to be given.
Throughout the Old Testament the Jews CHOSE to disobey God (and got severely punished). When they CHOSE to repent (turn from sin, return to God) then God would forgive them etc.

God knows if I am going to sin. I will choose to sin or not, often feeling a tug at my conscience. He doesn't make me sin.

If he knows you’re going to sin or not you don’t have a choice. If the future is predetermined by God free will is simply impossible. Most of the “commandments” of Old Testament aren’t from God anyway, but from men using God as a way to organize their society.

Clearly, things like the death penalty for adultery or eating shrimp is evil and not actually from God.

 

[Todd]

If he knows you’re going to sin or not you don’t have a choice. If the future is predetermined by God free will is simply impossible. Most of the “commandments” of Old Testament aren’t from God anyway, but from men using God as a way to organize their society.

Clearly, things like the death penalty for adultery or eating shrimp is evil and not actually from God.

Dietary guidance and instruction in the Torah is not evil in and of itself. It's the belief that ones righteousness, standing with God, or eternal destiny is dependent on it, that is evil. Taking God's guidance and instruction and codifying into a law, and creating burdensome restrictions and duties without understanding the purpose of it is evil.

Jesus did not reject the guidance and instruction of the Torah. But he made statements like these:

Matthew 15
16And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? 17Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Mark 2
24And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? 25And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him? 26How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? 27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Jesus intent was for us to value and treasure the guidance and instruction of God, but to understand that the guidance and instruction was made for our benefit. Following God's guidance and instruction was not for the intent of insuring our eternal destiny. For Jesus it wasn't about breaking a a code of law and paying the penalty for breaking that law. It was about God guiding us how to live the most blessed and content life, he desired for us.

Jesus explanation of the commandment "thou shall not commit murder" is a great example. Jesus understood that command was about what the heart or soul of man endures to even come to the place of contemplating murder. Without the emotional state of hatred, one would never even consider murder. Jesus understood that living with hatred in your heart, whether you actually ever commit physical murder, is not a blessed and godly way to live. Thus in the eyes of Jesus the disciples were not breaking a commandment when they picked and ate grain on the Sabbath, but one who simply had hatred in his heart for his brother, broke the commandment thous shall not commit murder.

The Torah, or guidance and instruction of God, is for our benefit so that we can live a blessed and favored life before God. Christianity has perverted the topic of observance of God's guidance and instruction, by making the topic of salvation a shallow question of going to either heaven or hell. Salvation is a much broader, deeper idea than where one is going when they die.

 

[Colonel Valerio]

Dietary guidance and instruction in the Torah is not evil in and of itself. It's the belief that ones righteousness, standing with God, or eternal destiny is dependent on it, that is evil. Taking God's guidance and instruction and codifying into a law, and creating burdensome restrictions and duties without understanding the purpose of it is evil.

Jesus did not reject the guidance and instruction of the Torah. But he made statements like these:

Matthew 15
16And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? 17Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Mark 2
24And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? 25And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him? 26How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? 27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Jesus intent was for us to value and treasure the guidance and instruction of God, but to understand that the guidance and instruction was made for our benefit. Following God's guidance and instruction was not for the intent of insuring our eternal destiny. For Jesus it wasn't about breaking a a code of law and paying the penalty for breaking that law. It was about God guiding us how to live the most blessed and content life, he desired for us.

Jesus explanation of the commandment "thou shall not commit murder" is a great example. Jesus understood that command was about what the heart or soul of man endures to even come to the place of contemplating murder. Without the emotional state of hatred, one would never even consider murder. Jesus understood that living with hatred in your heart, whether you actually ever commit physical murder, is not a blessed and godly way to live. Thus in the eyes of Jesus the disciples were not breaking a commandment when they picked and ate grain on the Sabbath, but one who simply had hatred in his heart for his brother, broke the commandment thous shall not commit murder.

The Torah, or guidance and instruction of God, is for our benefit so that we can live a blessed and favored life before God. Christianity has perverted the topic of observance of God's guidance and instruction, by making the topic of salvation a shallow question of going to either heaven or hell. Salvation is a much broader, deeper idea than where one is going when they die.

Well I understand where you are coming from and agree with some of it. I don’t think a lot of the law is evil or even unwise, ( although there is a whole lot of it that might be ) but it was the harsh punishments for breaking them that was clearly unjust. I also have a hard time believing God told people to mutilate their sons (circumcision) or that women are property.

 

[Daciple]

Everything to do with TULIP or Calvinism is incorrect. I personally believe in once saved always saved but the ideology as to why one is according to Calvinism I totally disagree with.

Total Depravity, in the understanding of Calvinism, I disagree with. I do believe we are all Lost before coming to the knowledge of Christ and His Forgiveness, but their understanding is basically we are so degenerate that unless God Himself does something specific to an individual that person can never even think of coming to God.

The thing is, God did do something for EVERYONE, not just some, its called the Atonement at Calvary. And I believe the Bible is clear that God has given ALL MEN faith, therefore each man has the ability INHERENTLY to accept the Gospel.

Rom 12;3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

The Bible also makes it clear that God has revealed Himself to every man, and that every man has been given the understanding that we fall short of Gods Law and we all know we are guilty before Him:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

God has already given all men exactly what is needed inherently to come to Him. I do believe that the Holy Spirit moves upon all men to draw them to Christ, as the Bible tells us that it is impossible for anyone to come to Christ if unless the Father draws them. I do believe that Lost men are Depraved in their Flesh, our Flesh is against God, but the boiled down ideology of Calvins Total Depravity I reject...

Completely disagree with Unconditional Election, this ideology inherently cause God to be a horrible monster who randomly picks people to save and creates others ONLY to damn them to Hell. This idea goes directly against Scripture, we can quote dozens of Scriptures to show this idea as False but only one is really needed:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Whosoever that believes will not perish, that is an open invitation to all men. God has given this opportunity for Salvation to all men and has equipped all men with everything necessary to be saved, all that is needed is Belief in Christ (the Christ as described in the Bible and not ones own made up idea of Christ). Whosoever automatically destroys the Calvin ideal of Unconditional Election, aka Predestination aka Gods a horrible monster that literally created the mass majority of His creation only to be thrown into Hell...

Limited Atonement is another hot garbage Anti Biblical Calvinist ideology. The idea that Jesus didnt die for the World and all Sin is totally against the Bible. We again can quote dozens of Scriptures but one will be fine:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Jesus took upon Himself the Sins of all men, the Sins of the World and His Justification before God is offered to all men who accept Him as their Lord and Savior. To say that Jesus died for only some men is to go directly against what John stated. Who is true Calvin or John?

Irresistible Grace again goes directly against Scripture. That is to say that men are forced to believe in Christ and accept Him as their Lord and Savior. However the Bible is very very clear that 1) Grace and the ability to be saved has been given to ALL MEN 2) that many will NOT accept this and will go to Hell. We have Free Will and we either choose to accept or reject Christ, Gods Grace is rejectable, if it wasnt then Jesus would not be saying things such as Narrow is the way and few find it, or Depart you workers of iniquity I never knew you. Also the idea that God is going to throw people into Hell to force them to believe is also unbiblical. There is no such thing as purgatory, Hell is a final destination, if you go there, you are there forever...

Perseverance of the Saints as I said before I do agree with Once Saved Always Saved, I however dont believe the Calvinistic ideology behind it. In Calvins Theology, since man cant even fathom God or their Sin before Him and since it is God who picked those who will get Saved before the creation of the World and then it is God who forced them to be Saved, it is therefore impossible for them to lose Salvation because God preordained it.

I believe that all men understand their Sin and have been given Grace/Faith and have the Free Will to accept or reject Christ, and that when someone TRULY accepts Christs and tastes of the Fruit and Heaven then it is impossible for them to ever willing reject Christ and fall away completely. I believe that if it were even possible for someone to fall away that God would take them home before they could get to that point where they would lose Salvation. To say otherwise is to say that God brings people to Salvation and then sits back KNOWING they will fall away and lets them fall away. That is a horrible monstrous God. Regardless I know that once I was Born Again I cant deny Christ as my Savior. I have been in some very low places to a point where I was extremely upset at God, where I was in the dark and wondering what is going on. However no matter how hard it has been, no matter how low I have gone, how far from God I have strayed I have always known that Jesus is God who died on the Cross for my Sins and it is by Him and Him alone that I have been reconciled to God and Salvation has been given to me.

My faults, my feelings, my emotions, nothing can change what Christ did on the Cross and in my life, and I can not ever believe someone who has had THAT kind of experience with Christ could ever actually deny Him. If they can deny Him then they never actually knew Him, period...

Calvinism IMO is theology for the weak, ignorant and lazy people who would rather have everything easily defined for them and essentially join a Cult than to study the Bible for themselves and let the Holy Spirit guide them to the Truth. Calvinism is utterly false...

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Everything to do with TULIP or Calvinism is incorrect. I personally believe in once saved always saved but the ideology as to why one is according to Calvinism I totally disagree with.

Total Depravity, in the understanding of Calvinism, I disagree with. I do believe we are all Lost before coming to the knowledge of Christ and His Forgiveness, but their understanding is basically we are so degenerate that unless God Himself does something specific to an individual that person can never even think of coming to God.

The thing is, God did do something for EVERYONE, not just some, its called the Atonement at Calvary. And I believe the Bible is clear that God has given ALL MEN faith, therefore each man has the ability INHERENTLY to accept the Gospel.

Rom 12;3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

The Bible also makes it clear that God has revealed Himself to every man, and that every man has been given the understanding that we fall short of Gods Law and we all know we are guilty before Him:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

God has already given all men exactly what is needed inherently to come to Him. I do believe that the Holy Spirit moves upon all men to draw them to Christ, as the Bible tells us that it is impossible for anyone to come to Christ if unless the Father draws them. I do believe that Lost men are Depraved in their Flesh, our Flesh is against God, but the boiled down ideology of Calvins Total Depravity I reject...

Completely disagree with Unconditional Election, this ideology inherently cause God to be a horrible monster who randomly picks people to save and creates others ONLY to damn them to Hell. This idea goes directly against Scripture, we can quote dozens of Scriptures to show this idea as False but only one is really needed:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Whosoever that believes will not perish, that is an open invitation to all men. God has given this opportunity for Salvation to all men and has equipped all men with everything necessary to be saved, all that is needed is Belief in Christ (the Christ as described in the Bible and not ones own made up idea of Christ). Whosoever automatically destroys the Calvin ideal of Unconditional Election, aka Predestination aka Gods a horrible monster that literally created the mass majority of His creation only to be thrown into Hell...

Limited Atonement is another hot garbage Anti Biblical Calvinist ideology. The idea that Jesus didnt die for the World and all Sin is totally against the Bible. We again can quote dozens of Scriptures but one will be fine:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Jesus took upon Himself the Sins of all men, the Sins of the World and His Justification before God is offered to all men who accept Him as their Lord and Savior. To say that Jesus died for only some men is to go directly against what John stated. Who is true Calvin or John?

Irresistible Grace again goes directly against Scripture. That is to say that men are forced to believe in Christ and accept Him as their Lord and Savior. However the Bible is very very clear that 1) Grace and the ability to be saved has been given to ALL MEN 2) that many will NOT accept this and will go to Hell. We have Free Will and we either choose to accept or reject Christ, Gods Grace is rejectable, if it wasnt then Jesus would not be saying things such as Narrow is the way and few find it, or Depart you workers of iniquity I never knew you. Also the idea that God is going to throw people into Hell to force them to believe is also unbiblical. There is no such thing as purgatory, Hell is a final destination, if you go there, you are there forever...

Perseverance of the Saints as I said before I do agree with Once Saved Always Saved, I however dont believe the Calvinistic ideology behind it. In Calvins Theology, since man cant even fathom God or their Sin before Him and since it is God who picked those who will get Saved before the creation of the World and then it is God who forced them to be Saved, it is therefore impossible for them to lose Salvation because God preordained it.

I believe that all men understand their Sin and have been given Grace/Faith and have the Free Will to accept or reject Christ, and that when someone TRULY accepts Christs and tastes of the Fruit and Heaven then it is impossible for them to ever willing reject Christ and fall away completely. I believe that if it were even possible for someone to fall away that God would take them home before they could get to that point where they would lose Salvation. To say otherwise is to say that God brings people to Salvation and then sits back KNOWING they will fall away and lets them fall away. That is a horrible monstrous God. Regardless I know that once I was Born Again I cant deny Christ as my Savior. I have been in some very low places to a point where I was extremely upset at God, where I was in the dark and wondering what is going on. However no matter how hard it has been, no matter how low I have gone, how far from God I have strayed I have always known that Jesus is God who died on the Cross for my Sins and it is by Him and Him alone that I have been reconciled to God and Salvation has been given to me.

My faults, my feelings, my emotions, nothing can change what Christ did on the Cross and in my life, and I can not ever believe someone who has had THAT kind of experience with Christ could ever actually deny Him. If they can deny Him then they never actually knew Him, period...

Calvinism IMO is theology for the weak, ignorant and lazy people who would rather have everything easily defined for them and essentially join a Cult than to study the Bible for themselves and let the Holy Spirit guide them to the Truth. Calvinism is utterly false...

I found it interesting that Calvin formulated his TULIP ideas in his 20s. As my ideas in my 20s were a little unformed, I think I am with you on most of the points above!

 

[DavidSon]

Theologies like this are for the ultra-brainiacs. "God" to them must be complex maze of warring principles, never sure who wins in the end. I wouldn't dare begin to wrap my head around what the hell is "total depravity." It truly has nothing to do with what Jesus was commanding.

Yesterday I was looking at a list of historical ages/periods. The Protestant movement occurred throughout the 16th century, in the heart of the Renaissance. You can see the reformists were chipping away at the Catholic, dark-age explanation of God and life, but they were still very much chained to the paradigms of classical theology. It''s interesting that after the 30 years' war and its brutality, many intellectuals began to reject Christianity altogether. The age of reason brought folly and ungodliness, but it inspired further reforms to make Protestant philosophy closer to what we see today.

I guess I'm surprised that after 400 years how much of Luther and Calvin's fantastical, overly-intellectual dogma lives on. Evangelicalism remains the most popular religion in the US and it's important to understand the history.I think it's helpful to know if our deepest beliefs originate from YAHWEH or from George Whitefield lol.