VC v. General Public

[justjess]

And people complain about liberal “safe spaces” and political correctness...

When you were a kid did your high school ever get a bomb threat?

What makes a 16 year old an adult?

 

[rainerann]

It carries up to a seven year prison sentence in Pennsylvania and there is no requirement that it be a credible threat.

do you know what the current sentence is for the same offense in a juvenile court?

 

[Frank Badfinger]

And people complain about liberal “safe spaces” and political correctness...

???

When you were a kid did your high school ever get a bomb threat?

Yes and we also had a shooting as well.

What makes a 16 year old an adult?

What makes a 18 year old an adult? According to your argument, only when a brain is fully developed at 25 is someone considered an adult. I know kids that are far more adult in their behavior than many of my friends. I also know guys in their 30's that act like 13 year olds.

If a 16 year old has the capacity to understand the crime and has been through the system with no progress and is a repeat offender then its off to prison. You do the crime, you do the time.

You really should use the reply button.

 

[justjess]

do you know what the current sentence is for the same offense in a juvenile court?

No info available. In the law, as written in the legal code, it does not differentiate. In Pennsylvania under juvenile law you can only stay under the supervision of the court until your 21. Juvenile courts are for anyone up to 18 years old EXCEPT in cases of murder or repeat offenders who were previously found guilty of ONE serious crime. So it doesn’t appear that a kid could be brought up as an adult for terroristic threats in this state, unless they had already been found guilty of a serious violent offense.

On one hand, I think that’s fair. On the other I think it is still ignoring what we are told from neuroscience, psychology, sociology and criminology.

And I worry about states that don’t have such clear guidelines for charging children as adults, and have harsh sentences for things like terroristic threats like my own state does.

 

[justjess]

???

Yes and we also had a shooting as well.

What makes a 18 year old an adult? According to your argument, only when a brain is fully developed at 25 is someone considered an adult. I know kids that are far more adult in their behavior than many of my friends. I also know guys in their 30's that act like 13 year olds.

If a 16 year old has the capacity to understand the crime and has been through the system with no progress and is a repeat offender then its off to prison. You do the crime, you do the time.

You really should use the reply button.

People make threats, they say things they don’t mean to get attention. They think it’s funny. They think it’s cool. They’re friends will like them for getting a day off school. Or alternatively they feel that way, even plan something but want to get caught so they can get help. If they didn’t they wouldn’t make their plans public. You are advocating locking them up in prison as adults, with actual murderers, for doing such things.

Yet this has been happening forever, it happened when I was a kid. Frequently. None of the people who did it turned into criminals or murderers.

Consequential thinking and reasoning is literally the last piece of the brain that develops. So yeah I definately think that should be a consideration when your talking about decisions with lifetime consequences for people not even old enough to drink legally.

What exactly do you think sending a kid to adult prison for a word crime is going to accomplish?

Added: you said terroristic threats are serious crimes because they can be traumatizing to others. On account of that it’s reasonable to sentence a child as an adult. That sounds like a legally enforced safe space man. Which is way worse than any optional “safe space” so called college liberals use.

It is also bordering on “thought crime” here..

 

[Frank Badfinger]

You are advocating locking them up in prison as adults, with murderers for doing such things.

You obviously didn't read what I wrote about first time offenders with no priors.

What exactly do you think sending a kid to adult prison for a word crime is going to accomplish?

word crime? As if threats to kill someone are harmless? Like a bomb threat on a plane by some drunk? Like a bomb threat during a crowded event? Like a sick jealous lover that is threatening to kill his former partner? Those word crimes?

What will it accomplish? Hopefully they will fully understand what they did was wrong and won't be threatening to kill anyone after that.

 

[rainerann]

No info available. In the law, as written in the legal code, it does not differentiate. In Pennsylvania under juvenile law you can only stay under the supervision of the court until your 21. Juvenile courts are for anyone up to 18 years old EXCEPT in cases of murder or repeat offenders who were previously found guilty of ONE serious crime. So it doesn’t appear that a kid could be brought up as an adult for terroristic threats in this state, unless they had already been found guilty of a serious violent offense.

On one hand, I think that’s fair. On the other I think it is still ignoring what we are told from neuroscience, psychology, sociology and criminology.

And I worry about states that don’t have such clear guidelines for charging children as adults, and have harsh sentences for things like terroristic threats like my own state does.

Yeah, I think I can see what you are saying. In reality, I don't think children should be tried as adults in cases of murder either or other serious crimes. Juvenile court is a specialty in and of itself. It shouldn't be adult or juvenile depending on the crime. It seems like it would be easy to say that certain offenses should not be removed from a juvenile record rather than try them as adults. I think a permanent record would be better than an adult sentence. Juvenile court should also be more focused on rehabilitation too, which is not.

In another life, I wanted to be a juvenile defense lawyer because I feel children receive poor representation as a whole.

 

[rainerann]

???

Yes and we also had a shooting as well.

What makes a 18 year old an adult? According to your argument, only when a brain is fully developed at 25 is someone considered an adult. I know kids that are far more adult in their behavior than many of my friends. I also know guys in their 30's that act like 13 year olds.

If a 16 year old has the capacity to understand the crime and has been through the system with no progress and is a repeat offender then its off to prison. You do the crime, you do the time.

You really should use the reply button.

It is logical to assume that if a 16-year-old has the capacity to understand the crime they have committed, they have the capacity to receive a more severe judgment. However, the way our personalities change between the ages of 16 to 30. There is significant enough change that happens during this time to see that even a juvenile repeat offender might have a much different perspective towards their own behavior at 16 when they are 30.

As a result of this potential, trying them as adults could permanently take away their opportunity to do something else with their lives in the future. Sentencing should take into consideration repeat offenses, but sentencing should be done within the juvenile court. The only exception I see to this would be in the case of mental illness or something like this. If someone was deemed mentally ill, a sentence should be able to exceed the age of 21, but everything regarding juvenile offenses should center around the development of law regarding minors. It should not divert to trying minors as adults simply because a law already exists for the offense in question and the crime is determined to deserve a more severe judgment than the juvenile court is able to give.

 

[justjess]

You obviously didn't read what I wrote about first time offenders with no priors.


word crime? As if threats to kill someone are harmless? Like a bomb threat on a plane by some drunk? Like a bomb threat during a crowded event? Like a sick jealous lover that is threatening to kill his former partner? Those word crimes?

What will it accomplish? Hopefully they will fully understand what they did was wrong and won't be threatening to kill anyone after that.

What kind of priors? A prior could be literally anything. It could be public drunkenness, low level marijuana charges, a school yard fight. I’m not sure if your imagining priors being some serious violent violation or if you don’t care what the prior is.

The fact is we have a school to prison pipeline thing going on right now. Kids are being locked up for bullshit that wasn’t handled that way in the very recent past and most of us turned out alright somehow. This flies in the face of everything we know biologically, psychologically and sociologically. It’s absurd.

And yes thought crime. If they haven’t done anything of consequence it is a thought crime, or word crime in this case. Someone being scared doesnt justify doling out a life sentence to a kid - which no matter how short a criminal sentence in adult court is, make no mistake it is actually a life sentence.

 

[justjess]

Yeah, I think I can see what you are saying. In reality, I don't think children should be tried as adults in cases of murder either or other serious crimes. Juvenile court is a specialty in and of itself. It shouldn't be adult or juvenile depending on the crime. It seems like it would be easy to say that certain offenses should not be removed from a juvenile record rather than try them as adults. I think a permanent record would be better than an adult sentence. Juvenile court should also be more focused on rehabilitation too, which is not.

In another life, I wanted to be a juvenile defense lawyer because I feel children receive poor representation as a whole.

I don’t either. But I’m willing to compromise.

I’d be willing to compromise further if prisons actually rehabilitated or made common sense housing decisions or employers weren’t allowed to discriminate for twenty year old convictions. But we have none of those things.

 

[VigCizMember]

I voted no because you didn’t specify an age and students could mean like 7 or 8 year olds. Kids often don’t realize what they’re doing or more so, the implications of what they do - and that’s simply due to lack of experience and the fact that their brains are still developing. Anyway, I voted no...but maybe 15 and up I might say yes, but to what end? What kind of penalty are we talking about, and are threats anything more than a nuisance anyway? Maybe they are, I dunno I’m not in school any longer.

 

[justjess]

Yeah, I think I can see what you are saying. In reality, I don't think children should be tried as adults in cases of murder either or other serious crimes. Juvenile court is a specialty in and of itself. It shouldn't be adult or juvenile depending on the crime. It seems like it would be easy to say that certain offenses should not be removed from a juvenile record rather than try them as adults. I think a permanent record would be better than an adult sentence. Juvenile court should also be more focused on rehabilitation too, which is not.

In another life, I wanted to be a juvenile defense lawyer because I feel children receive poor representation as a whole.

A permanent record for a child can and often is worse then actually physically being in an adult prison. It marrs them for life and almost ensures they don’t become functioning members of society.

Kudos to you for wanting to take on that work. I always wanted to be a lawyer I just didn’t have the years of study necessary to devote to it when I was in college and i don’t now either.

 

[VigCizMember]

You obviously didn't read what I wrote about first time offenders with no priors.


word crime? As if threats to kill someone are harmless? Like a bomb threat on a plane by some drunk? Like a bomb threat during a crowded event? Like a sick jealous lover that is threatening to kill his former partner? Those word crimes?

What will it accomplish? Hopefully they will fully understand what they did was wrong and won't be threatening to kill anyone after that.

We have to be very careful when dishing out judgement around words - the law has to take into account intent, and I’d wager that can be hard to prove, and rightfully so. Imagine living in a world where every tantrum induced “I hate you I wish you were dead!” was met with imprisonment.

I often feel mankind rises (or lowers) to match his surroundings- and a strictly rigid environment is often met with equally extreme resistance. This is why the nature of prisons are, I feel, often not rehabilitative.

 

[Frank Badfinger]

It is logical to assume that if a 16-year-old has the capacity to understand the crime they have committed, they have the capacity to receive a more severe judgment. However, the way our personalities change between the ages of 16 to 30. There is significant enough change that happens during this time to see that even a juvenile repeat offender might have a much different perspective towards their own behavior at 16 when they are 30.

As a result of this potential, trying them as adults could permanently take away their opportunity to do something else with their lives in the future. Sentencing should take into consideration repeat offenses, but sentencing should be done within the juvenile court. The only exception I see to this would be in the case of mental illness or something like this. If someone was deemed mentally ill, a sentence should be able to exceed the age of 21, but everything regarding juvenile offenses should center around the development of law regarding minors. It should not divert to trying minors as adults simply because a law already exists for the offense in question and the crime is determined to deserve a more severe judgment than the juvenile court is able to give.

Well you make a good case. I may reconsider my position.

 

[Frank Badfinger]

We have to be very careful when dishing out judgement around words - the law has to take into account intent, and I’d wager that can be hard to prove, and rightfully so. Imagine living in a world where every tantrum induced “I hate you I wish you were dead!” was met with imprisonment.

I often feel mankind rises (or lowers) to match his surroundings- and a strictly rigid environment is often met with equally extreme resistance. This is why the nature of prisons are, I feel, often not rehabilitative.

Good point.

 

[Frank Badfinger]

What kind of priors? A prior could be literally anything. It could be public drunkenness, low level marijuana charges, a school yard fight. I’m not sure if your imagining priors being some serious violent violation or if you don’t care what the prior is.

Violent behavior

The fact is we have a school to prison pipeline thing going on right now. Kids are being locked up for bullshit that wasn’t handled that way in the very recent past and most of us turned out alright somehow. This flies in the face of everything we know biologically, psychologically and sociologically. It’s absurd.

I see both sides on this.

And yes thought crime. If they haven’t done anything of consequence it is a thought crime, or word crime in this case. Someone being scared doesnt justify doling out a life sentence to a kid - which no matter how short a criminal sentence in adult court is, make no mistake it is actually a life sentence.

Threatening to shoot people at a school is NOT a thought crime. If a youth makes a threat to kill others, It must be taken seriously as I said before. So a youth who threatenes to shoot people is scared? No. Very troubled yes.
I'm not for coddling violent youth. I already have reconsider my position somewhat as long as the little bastard(s) isn't given a slap on the wrist or sent to some BS juvenile detention with his homies. All sentencing is done on a one on one basis.

Something to think about.

Breaking News, Analysis, Politics, Blogs, News Photos, Video, Tech Reviews - TIME.com

A new Canadian study adds to the evidence that punishing troubled teens within the juvenile-justice system exacerbates their bad behavior

content.time.com

 

[justjess]

Violent behavior


I see both sides on this.


Threatening to shoot people at a school is NOT a thought crime. If a youth makes a threat to kill others, It must be taken seriously as I said before. So a youth who threatenes to shoot people is scared? No. Very troubled yes.
I'm not for coddling violent youth. I already have reconsider my position somewhat as long as the little bastard(s) isn't given a slap on the wrist or sent to some BS juvenile detention with his homies. All sentencing is done on a one on one basis.

Something to think about.

Breaking News, Analysis, Politics, Blogs, News Photos, Video, Tech Reviews - TIME.com

A new Canadian study adds to the evidence that punishing troubled teens within the juvenile-justice system exacerbates their bad behavior

content.time.com

Kids and teens need counseling and pointed interventions that get to the root of their problem. Adults do too, but we aren’t willing to do that for adults and I’d hope that we would be willing for kids.. getting them the help they need at a vulnerable age is the most important thing we can do to ensure they don’t become adult criminals.

Yes, taken seriously. I never disagreed with that. Treated like a criminal matter - especially in adult court and prisons, however, I vehemently disagree with.

I read your article. I’m well aware of that dynamic, which is why I’m so adamant against treating children like criminals except in EXTREME cases. But consider this, everything that article states is only exacerbated by placing them in the adult system. They learn how to be effective criminals from effective criminals and they throw whatever hope they had left for a normal life out the window.

These children’s home lives and school environments should be comprehensively scrutinized and an individual intervention put in place that addresses whatever factors led to this. Prison only makes things worse in the vast majority of cases.

My husband was tried as an adult for something he did at 16, he probably had the maturity level of a 13 year old. Non violent, no weapons. Served 5 years in an adult prison - rikers island adult wing, sing sing, Clinton.. shortly before he came home I went to visit him. We were sitting next to the son of Sam. It’s twenty years later, he still can’t get a job (so we opened a business), he’s still judged by the stupid shit he did at 16 that physically harmed no one, and he still has severe ptsd.

What they needed to do was remove him from his toxic home environment at the first whiff of trouble when he was 12. Get him counseling and psychiatric help. Maybe send him to military school. But our system doesn’t work on prevention or actual solutions. The prison industry makes too much money and needs bodies to fill beds to make it.

 

[Frank Badfinger]

Kids and teens need counseling and pointed interventions that get to the root of their problem. Adults do too, but we aren’t willing to do that for adults and I’d hope that we would be willing for kids.. getting them the help they need at a vulnerable age is the most important thing we can do to ensure they don’t become adult criminals.

Yes, taken seriously. I never disagreed with that. Treated like a criminal matter - especially in adult court and prisons, however, I vehemently disagree with.

I read your article. I’m well aware of that dynamic, which is why I’m so adamant against treating children like criminals except in EXTREME cases. But consider this, everything that article states is only exacerbated by placing them in the adult system. They learn how to be effective criminals from effective criminals and they throw whatever hope they had left for a normal life out the window.

These children’s home lives and school environments should be comprehensively scrutinized and an individual intervention put in place that addresses whatever factors led to this. Prison only makes things worse in the vast majority of cases.

My husband was tried as an adult for something he did at 16, he probably had the maturity level of a 13 year old. Non violent, no weapons. Served 5 years in an adult prison - rikers island adult wing, sing sing, Clinton.. shortly before he came home I went to visit him. We were sitting next to the son of Sam. It’s twenty years later, he still can’t get a job (so we opened a business), he’s still judged by the stupid shit he did at 16 that physically harmed no one, and he still has severe ptsd.

What they needed to do was remove him from his toxic home environment at the first whiff of trouble when he was 12. Get him counseling and psychiatric help. Maybe send him to military school. But our system doesn’t work on prevention or actual solutions. The prison industry makes too much money and needs bodies to fill beds to make it.

I agree with what you wrote. I've worked with ex-cons as a job developer and I saw the bias and inability of potential employers to give some folks a second chance. I'm all for prevention and second chances if the person is willing to make the effort. You are correct the prison system is an industry and many today are private for profit in the US. The system is messed up big time.

Problem is you can't just pull kids out of homes unless there is some form of abuse and neglect and then they get put into foster care and many times thats even worse. What I believe is needed is more state and federal funding for more mentor-ship programs, and 24hr drop-in centers with counselors and former gang members to set kids straight. Job/career programs and faith based services and supervised group homes for certain youth offenders.

 

[justjess]

I agree with what you wrote. I've worked with ex-cons as a job developer and I saw the bias and inability of potential employers to give some folks a second chance. I'm all for prevention and second chances if the person is willing to make the effort. You are correct the prison system is an industry and many today are private for profit in the US. The system is messed up big time.

Problem is you can't just pull kids out of homes unless there is some form of abuse and neglect and then they get put into foster care and many times thats even worse. What I believe is needed is more state and federal funding for more mentor-ship programs, and 24hr drop-in centers with counselors and former gang members to set kids straight. Job/career programs and faith based services and supervised group homes for certain youth offenders.

You can. Whether it’s right or ideal is up for debate. There’s a category for child welfare - not abuse or neglect - where if the parents are unable to provide the level of care that specific child needs the system can intervene. It just depends. It would have been better for my husband. Not necessarily the case for everyone. I personally wonder why military school is not used more often...

But I like your plan too.

 

[Aero]

I hate to sound so blunt, but I'm the type of person who thinks selling anyone to the state is a trash move.

Let me be clear if someone committed a serious crime where I had to turn them in, I would. Now, obviously someone making a threat isn't enough. In the case of "threats," my first move would be to deploy some depth psychology.

Depth doesn't work on everyone though. Plus you that's like exploring someone's nightmares. So yeah, I've kinda been leaning mainly on my second move. Which is to just lightning bolt a fool.