VC v. General Public

Should students who make school shooting threats be charged as adults?

  • Yes

    Votes: 8 34.8%
  • No

    Votes: 15 65.2%

  • Total voters
    23

Lurker

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Based on a recent online poll. Just wanted to see how the VC community would compare to the community at large. I've left the poll as I viewed it, but feel free to comment that it would depend on variables as very little is as simple as yes or no, black or white.
 

Lurker

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I voted no, though variables should be considered. I'll explain more later.
 

justjess

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I voted no. I really hate this trend of treating children like adults for things we used to successfully view as childhood behavioral problems that WE as adults needed to use as learning opportunities to guide them into being successful adults.

Plus to vote yes means ignoring the large role media is playing in fueling this crisis with nonstop coverage and impressionable young minds that lack the ability to discern.
 

Lurker

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Plus to vote yes means ignoring the large role media is playing in fueling this crisis with nonstop coverage and impressionable young minds that lack the ability to discern.
I hadn't considered the media part. I am leaning differently on the "yes" vote. Though I don't think we are at odds.
 

justjess

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I’m just trying to consider how children and adolescent brains work. In consideration of how we used to handle things vs how we currently do. With an understanding of how punishments work as deterrents.. with all things considered I see literally no advantage to doing so.

I also morally feel like we have an obligation to do everything in our power to rehabilitate children and teens who still have their entire lives ahead of them, rather then writing them off as lost causes before they even have a chance.
 

Lurker

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I’m just trying to consider how children and adolescent brains work. In consideration of how we used to handle things vs how we currently do. With an understanding of how punishments work as deterrents.. with all things considered I see literally no advantage to doing so.

I also morally feel like we have an obligation to do everything in our power to rehabilitate children and teens who still have their entire lives ahead of them, rather then writing them off as lost causes before they even have a chance.
Where's that here here gif? It must be around here somewhere.
 

The Zone

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I mean, a 14-year-old is being sought for killing a female student in New York and many more things go unreported. Something that has been somewhat ignored has been the violence coming from youth which is increasing. No matter the answers above or here or elsewhere, it is a complicated issue and one with no crystal clear answer,
 

justjess

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Your brain literally does not develop adult reasoning capabilities until you are 25 years old.

What are you hoping to accomplish by trying children as adults? Do you think it is a deterrent or is it simply about punishment? How you answer that question holds a lot of weight about how you should respond to the hypothetical situation.

The OP also mentioned “threats” not actual acts of violence. Threats are typically cries for help, if someone really really wanted to do something they wouldn’t bother notifying people of their intent and giving them the opportunity to stop them. When it is “threats” you aren’t reacting to a crime committed, you are reacting to the possibility of someone committing a crime - that needs mental health intervention, not a lifetime in prison.

I see no justification for trying children as adults when they lack all the cognitive abilities of adults that we use to ascribe guilt and come to terms of punishment.
 

The Zone

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FWIW, I took no firm stance here. But consider this Jess... who is to say what age is appropriate? You can have sex legally in some countries very young. The point is who made the original age of 18 in the US and has science proven that it is more subjective as to when someone is an adult in recent studies? Surely you have seen kids beyond their years when dealing with them and some more mature than adults in many cases. Again, it is a slippery slope. But counseling should be the first choice in threats, but common sense says we need to remain very cautious with things like the young incel movements, etc. OTOH, there is bad chemistry in some which will not get better despite living ten more years or into their 20's for more life experience.
 
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justjess

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FWIW, I took no firm stance here. But consider this Jess... who is to say what age is appropriate? You can have sex legally in some countries very young. The point is who made the original age of 18 in the US and has science proven that it is more subjective as to when someone is an adult? Surely you have seen kids beyond their years when dealing with them and some more mature than adults in many cases. Again, it is a slippery slope. But counseling should be the first choice in threats, but common sense says we need to remain very cautious with things like the young incel movements, etc.
I didn’t think you did take a firm stance. I read your reply.

Cultural differences play a part in behavior. That’s why you see different cultures with teenagers who act like adults. However, brain biology is independent of all that and brain biology tells us we don’t fully develop adult reasoning capabilities til around 25 years old.

Who choose 18 and how was it chosen in the United States? I don’t know. I strongly disagree with it at this point considering the even more culturally based (it seems) retardation of the development of “adulting” evident in current society. Any sort of arbitrary cut off causes problems. What is the statistical difference between someone 17 years and 364 days and someone 18 years old? Quite frankly there is none. These are all pretty unanswerable questions at this point in time, imo.

Here’s what I do know. Try a kid as an adult and you are giving them a life sentence (even if it’s only a year long actual sentence) when they are at an age that is highly impressionable and haven’t finished fully maturing into adults yet. I’ve seen it firsthand, I live with it sleeping next to me.

Here’s what else I know. Bomb threats and threats to schools from students aren’t new. Fights and violence among students aren’t new. We used to have them once a week, atleast, when I was in school and this was pre-911, pre Columbine. I left school just prior to all that happening. The kids that did it? None were treated like adults and put into the CJS. Many are now stockbrokers, lawyers, doctors and have successful and what appears to be law abiding productive lives. I haven’t heard about even one of them going on to become career criminals or murserers or anything of the sort.

We have a responsibility to children to guide them into adulthood. We have a responsibility to listen to cries for help, notice the signs even when they aren’t verbal, and intervene to get them the help they need before it’s too late. We also have a responsibility to address this crisis of bullying or whatever the hell is going on in these schools to prevent things like this from happening or even becoming possible.
 

Aero

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I voted no.

Adults make threats against each other constantly. So I think we are talking about a huge double standard here. Sure, normally adults don't get so specific, but generally speaking, threats are common in the adult world.

Given how violent rhetoric is all around us, I see no reason to throw the hammer down on some dumb kid.
 

rainerann

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Yes and no. I do think that a credible threat should carry a penalty. I cannot find what the penalty is for a juvenile at the moment. I guess Colorado gives an adult an 18 month sentence and a fine for when a threat is considered credible.

I do think a juvenile should face similar sentencing. However, their sentencing should be determine by a juvenile court. This way, they still get a significant consequence but they can move on as an adult without this being on their record.

it is worth mentioning that there is a difference between credible and non credible threats. Adults who make non credible threats don’t face charges either so if a kid is being stupid, even if they were tried as an adult, they might not be charged if the threat isn’t considered credible.

I do think a juvenile should get a somewhat equivalent punishment as an adult for a credible threat, but I don’t think it should be on their permanent record. So I guess I could still mark no in the survey. I was on the fence about whether I could even choose one.
 

shankara

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Along with South Sudan and Somalia, the USA is one of the three countries that hasn't ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. I would say that in any case charging a child as an adult is absurd and wrong, at ages of below eighteen a person is so far from being a fully developed and mature human being that assigning to them the same level of responsibility as someone of 40 is just ridiculous. Especially in the US justice system with it's extraordinarily harsh penalties and the world's highest rate of incarceration... "While the United States represents about 4.4 percent of the world's population, it houses around 22 percent of the world's prisoners"
 
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I’m just trying to consider how children and adolescent brains work. In consideration of how we used to handle things vs how we currently do. With an understanding of how punishments work as deterrents.. with all things considered I see literally no advantage to doing so.

I also morally feel like we have an obligation to do everything in our power to rehabilitate children and teens who still have their entire lives ahead of them, rather then writing them off as lost causes before they even have a chance.
Coming from a 15 year old I agree, but in this point of life, there's hardly any adults who will raise you right/teach you right. Personally, I was taught right, that's why I'm the outcast in my school. Teens in a group talking about vanity, lust, media, and immature topics and they want to invite me? Count me out.

Teens, even younger than me appear as adults because they were badly influenced by the media and/or live in a household were they see things, and copy it because they don't know better which means it's also their parents/guardians fault for displaying such words and/or acts in front of their child while knowing better.

Honestly, I'm at the point where I believe teaching teens the right way of life is something that will rarely happen. It's easier to teach children, but teens? They take everything they know and use it to their advantage thus trying to act like an adult, and that's why I like children more than teens.

Yes, I'd rather hang out with a loud playful child over a cocky prideful teen. Sad I'm even in their age group.
 

justjess

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Lol.. I get it, I do. Adolescence is a notoriously difficult developmental stage. Both for the adolescent and everyone around them. I had some difficult teenage years myself, good on you for not lowering your standards to conform.

With all that said, no matter how difficult it may be that does not negate our responsibility as adults, if anything it increases it. A lot of parents and professionals who work with children seem to think the hard work is over once a kid reaches high school, in reality it’s the opposite. At an age where the peer group and media/arts influences BIOLOGICALLY trump parental/family influences as parents and significant adults in a teens life we have to work 3times as hard to get our voice heard - but it isn’t optional, WE HAVE TO. Adults who neglect this are every bit as much to blame as the teenager for whatever goes wrong as a result.

Just FYI, teens “act like adults” because there is a battle going on in their brains between being a kid and yearning for independence. This is made 10x worse when media is showing teens as if they are adults and there is some sort of existential pressure to live up to it. It isn’t your guys fault, it’s ours. We are failing you. We just don’t want to own it.
 

justjess

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Yes and no. I do think that a credible threat should carry a penalty. I cannot find what the penalty is for a juvenile at the moment. I guess Colorado gives an adult an 18 month sentence and a fine for when a threat is considered credible.

I do think a juvenile should face similar sentencing. However, their sentencing should be determine by a juvenile court. This way, they still get a significant consequence but they can move on as an adult without this being on their record.

it is worth mentioning that there is a difference between credible and non credible threats. Adults who make non credible threats don’t face charges either so if a kid is being stupid, even if they were tried as an adult, they might not be charged if the threat isn’t considered credible.

I do think a juvenile should get a somewhat equivalent punishment as an adult for a credible threat, but I don’t think it should be on their permanent record. So I guess I could still mark no in the survey. I was on the fence about whether I could even choose one.
It carries up to a seven year prison sentence in Pennsylvania and there is no requirement that it be a credible threat.
 

Frank Badfinger

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In what context? What situations? What made you choose 16 as the cut off age?
Threatening to kill people is a serious crime. It can be traumatizing to others, take up a ton of resources and should be taken very seriously.

If the offender is a youth and has no record, I believe he/she should not necessarily go to prison but should receive instant an psychological assessment and counseling with regular check-ins to a youth justice personal.
If it is determined they are a credible threat to others, they should be detained in a youth facility or a mental health facility depending on how severe the threat and if mental illness is a factor.

If the offender is 16-17 and has a criminal record or previous record of threats, that person should be sent to adult prison.
 
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