Vaxxed documentary & info

[JoChris]

Which is pharmacy. Look it up. pharmakia

Do you ever walk into a chemist/ pharmacy?
If yes, are you entering into a sorceror's den?
Are you swallowing sorcery when you swallow medication?

 

[bible_student]

Vaccines Lower IQ -

• Groundbreaking new study identifies vaccines as the most common source of adverse drug reactions in children, including anaphylaxis and death
• Study reveals adverse drug reactions are more common for boys than girls, and infants are the most susceptible age group
• Vaccines provide only artificial, temporary, typically inferior immunity compared to what your body receives from natural exposure to a disease
• History offers little evidence that vaccines are responsible for eradicating disease even when “herd immunity” vaccination levels have been reached
• After vaccines are introduced, new and more virulent strains tend to emerge, suggesting the entire vaccine-immunity paradigm is fatally flawed

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/04/26/vaccines-adverse-reaction.aspx

Would you take it if forced upon you?

 

[manama]

I'm not.

If you stop interfering and allow the child's immune system the time that it needs to do it's job, then the child will have a fully developed immune system by the time they become an adult and not get sick.

Like the people I told you about before, that I knew who explained to me that their parents kept them away from doctors and vaccines.

Not only were they healthy and strong, they were blooming smart as well. Those guys didn't have to study nearly as hard as I had to, and I know they didn't attend all their classes.

And when it got time for exams, then they would take the textbooks themselves and read them and figure it out and consistently get some of the highest marks in the class. Both of them easily and without breaking a sweat graduated with honours and it was NOT an easy degree.

You do know that there are viral diseases that a baby can get while he is still in the womb? Or things like polio which effect in the early years. Viral diseases, except in rare cases like aids and rabies, take hours or minutes to start killing the person. Immune system takes days and even weeks just to detect that there is a problem.
Unless you have studied immunology, or have an actual source that says otherwise. Don't debate me on this.

I have not witheld anything. There we go again with you not understanding the meaning of words.

Withholding vaccines.

But if I tell you that no thanks, I don't want it, then you have not done anything wrong because you just respected my free-will.

Yes that is the case in snake bite, and youll just die. However, in real life with a viral disease you might not die but thousands of others will because you were not vaccinated.

No it is not.
God never told anyone to do this (vaccinations).
You should learn to let go of all that fear that they fill the student's minds with.

God's Law is the ONLY Law on this planet that is valid and it does not say in it anywhere that you need to have vaccinations.


"Turn to GOD for your cures and answers, NOT to men.

3:184 Natural-medicine; creams; herbal-remedies, etc. and the stitching of wounds; setting of broken
bones; delivering babies and nursing, are a natural part of loving and caring for one another.
3:185 Because of this lack of REAL faith, in God and life-after-death, with people consequently
clinging, desperately, to the present human-life that they have, no-matter what the cost, we now have
a world FULL of sick people, and overflowing hospitals, and some very rich doctors and
pharmaceutical companies: all of which is a terrific drain on society. Doctors are unknowingly
assisting Satan, by helping people to continue to go the wrong way (do evil), because they are
keeping people’s bodies healthy (?), by artificial means. They too have under-estimated Satan, been
conned, and many sincerely believe that they are helping mankind, when, in fact, they have been
deceived, and are actually working for Satan, and mankind’s destruction.

The road to Hell-Fire is paved with good intentions!!!"

- TWHOFTF

This is not the religions forum and I am not a Christian especially not whatever cult you're from. So I don't care about that. Either talk science here or move to religion forum.

 

[bible_student]

Do you ever walk into a chemist/ pharmacy?

Yes.

If yes, are you entering into a sorceror's den?

Yes.

Are you swallowing sorcery when you swallow medication?

Yes, if it's pharmaceutical drugs and not natural medicine.

 

[manama]

Vaccines Lower IQ -

• Groundbreaking new study identifies vaccines as the most common source of adverse drug reactions in children, including anaphylaxis and death
• Study reveals adverse drug reactions are more common for boys than girls, and infants are the most susceptible age group
• Vaccines provide only artificial, temporary, typically inferior immunity compared to what your body receives from natural exposure to a disease
• History offers little evidence that vaccines are responsible for eradicating disease even when “herd immunity” vaccination levels have been reached
• After vaccines are introduced, new and more virulent strains tend to emerge, suggesting the entire vaccine-immunity paradigm is fatally flawed

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/04/26/vaccines-adverse-reaction.aspx

Would you take it if forced upon you?

Interesting how you've mentioned "Groundbreaking new study" but i can't find the study in the entire article, there are only "maybe" and some youtube videos. Where is the "study"?

 

[bible_student]

You do know that there are viral diseases that a baby can get while he is still in the womb?

So? What makes you think it would be wise to interfere with that if it happens? Everything happens for a reason. By interfering you cause people to then have to grow up in unhealthy/substandard bodies and being chronically ill and having trouble with a weak immune system due to your interference with nature, so, you are actually setting them up and causing them a lot of unnecessary pain and suffering, which would never have happened if you had just let things be.

Why would you want to do this to them?

Or things like polio which effect in the early years. Viral diseases, except in rare cases like aids and rabies, take hours or minutes to start killing the person. Immune system takes days and even weeks just to detect that there is a problem.

You should let nature take it's course. It's part of the built-in natural quality control system as God has designed it. But if you then start interfering and prevent all these sick/unsuitable babies (bodies) from dying you are filling the world with weak and chronically sick and suffering people. They then have children and pass on the defects to others and it just keeps getting worse and worse until everyone is sick and dying. So, by doing that you are creating and multiplying pain and suffering throughout the world (which is exactly what Satan wants) and thereby doing yourself and everyone else a great disservice.

Unless you have studied immunology, or have an actual source that says otherwise. Don't debate me on this.

Denied.

Withholding [unwanted - bible student] vaccines.

From people who have told you they don't want them.

By your logic, a rapist can then also say to you that you are "withholding r*pe" from the people who the rapist is sure in their own sick mind really actually wants to be r*pe by them, because the rapist has a satanically controlled mind.

Yes that is the case in snake bite, and youll just die. However, in real life with a viral disease you might not die but thousands of others will because you were not vaccinated.

That is the case in all cases. It is against God's Law to violate another person's free-will.

Thousands of others won't die unless they deserve it, and it is God Who decides if they do or not.

This is not the religions forum and I am not a Christian especially not whatever cult you're from. So I don't care about that. Either talk science here or move to religion forum.

It won't work to try and use JoChris's cop-out by saying "this is not the religious forum" when you lose.
We are not debating religion we are discussing Truth (which is what actual REAL science is b.t.w. and it is an EXACT science).

 

[JoChris]

Yes, if it's pharmaceutical drugs and not natural medicine.

So if you get sick you NEVER take any medications? Not even panadol?
Have you already decided you will not take medications if you become seriously ill for whatever reason?

 

[bible_student]

Interesting how you've mentioned "Groundbreaking new study" but i can't find the study in the entire article, there are only "maybe" and some youtube videos. Where is the "study"?

Check the sources in the article.

By Dr. Mercola

A groundbreaking new drug safety study in Shanghai, China, provides some much needed information about the frequency of vaccine drug reactions among children.
Adverse drug reactions are a serious public health concern and one of the leading causes of morbidity and mortality worldwide.1 More than a half million children are treated every year for adverse drug reactions in US outpatient clinics and emergency rooms.2
The Shanghai study, based on reported pediatric adverse drug reactions (ADRs) for 2009, found that 42 percent were caused by vaccines, with reactions ranging from mild skin rashes to deadly reactions like anaphylaxis and death. Of all the drugs causing adverse reactions among children, vaccines are the most commonly reported.3, 4
This study is particularly significant because the vast majority of reports came from physicians, pharmacists, and other health care providers. Less than three percent of the reports were from consumers.
Another safety report5 about pediatric drug reactions was just published by the Institute for Safe Medication Practices (ISMP) and lists the top 15 drugs causing serious adverse reactions in children.
Psychiatric drugs and analgesics (especially ibuprofen) figure prominently in their top 15 list. The report also mentions psychological side effects such as aggression and suicidal ideation as frequent symptoms from 10 of the 15 most commonly reported drugs.​

Drugs and Vaccines Are More Dangerous for the Very Young

Three major trends emerged in the Chinese drug reaction study:

• Gender: Males (60 percent) were represented more than females (40 percent)
• Age: Young children were more susceptible to harm; 65 percent of the adverse drug reactions were reported for children age 5 and under, and about 40 percent involved children aged 2 months to 2 years. The highest proportion of serious reports was for newborns (0 to 1 month). The ISMP and other researchers have confirmed that the number of adverse drug reactions is highest in the first year of life—so parents of newborns, beware!6
• "Polypharmacy": The more drugs a child is exposed to, the higher the proportion of serious reactions; drug-to-drug interactions (DDI) are increasingly problematic with today's practice of "polypharmacy"(using two or more drugs together)

Vaccine reactions are very difficult to detect because often, multiple vaccines are given together, with synergistic toxicities and multiple adverse interactions occurring, which makes it hard to know what is causing what. Vaccine reactions are also notoriously underreported, as many physicians brush off symptoms as mere "coincidence," denying they have anything to do with vaccination.
The Chinese researchers made the following statement about why they believe vaccines are causing so many adverse reactions:

"The ADR rate caused by vaccines is much higher than other drugs, and this may be related to the types and number of vaccinations being used in China, as the types of routine immunization vaccines in China reach up to 15 kinds, which is much higher than seven kinds in India and Vietnam, nine kinds in Thailand and 11 kinds in America, and most of the vaccines in China are attenuated live vaccines, which may bring a greater potential safety hazard."​

Advertisement

High Infant Mortality and High Infant Vaccine Rates—Are They Related?

The US has one of the highest infant mortality rates in the developed world. Yet, American infants are given the greatest number of vaccines—26 doses of vaccines by the end of their first year. Can this really be a coincidence? If vaccines were doing a good job at safeguarding children's health, the US should be enjoying extremely low infant mortality, shouldn't it?
Acute adverse reactions that are actually reported are just the tip of the iceberg. There are many more deleterious effects when you consider post-vaccination brain inflammation (encephalitis) and encephalopathy, immune dysfunction, paralysis, and other long-term health sequelae that have been causally related to both live attenuated virus and inactivated vaccines around the world, especially the types used in developing nations. The tragic results of this are poignantly illustrated in the featured study.
If your child's immune system is not functioning properly, he or she may be more susceptible than the average child to suffering a serious vaccine reaction. The unfortunate part is, currently there are few ways to determine in advance whether or not your child has normal immune function or has other biological, genetic, or environmental risk factors that greatly increase individual susceptibility to suffering harm from vaccinations.
This means that an adverse vaccine reaction may be your first indication your child's immune system is vulnerable to atypical manipulation by vaccines —and sadly, in some cases, the brain or immune system damage caused by vaccination is severe and permanent. According to Dr. Kelly Brogan, one of the most fundamental problems with today's vaccine paradigm is that vaccine safety has not been studied—much less proven: "The current schedule has never been studied – not one vaccine in a vaccinated vs. unvaccinated design, let alone multiple delivered at once, or the entire long-term effects of 49 doses of 14 vaccines by age 6."​

The Government Gives Vaccine Manufacturers a Free Pass

In 1988, Congress passed a law shielding physicians and vaccine manufacturers from vaccine injury lawsuits. Prior to this law, most doctors were much more cautious about giving vaccines to children who had a prior adverse vaccine reaction—for fear of being sued.
For example, the whole cell pertussis vaccine in the DPT shot was notorious for causing seizures, high pitched screaming, and collapse shock due to brain inflammation. Prior to 1988, pediatricians were warned not to give the DPT to children who had a history of seizures in the first 72 hours following a DPT. But now that doctors and vaccine manufacturers are protected from lawsuits, vaccine reactions are regarded as "less significant," even "coincidental"... of course, they're NOT insignificant when it's your child who is having one! The vaccine manufacturers and physicians are being taken care of... but who is protecting your child?​

A Fundamentally Flawed Concept of Immunity

Vaccine manufacturers would like you to believe that the "immunity" you receive from vaccines is equal to or better than what is conferred through natural exposure to the infection, but this simply isn't the case. There are important differences between naturally acquired immunity and temporary vaccine-induced antibody production. Vaccines are never 100 percent protective because they provide only artificial, temporary, typically inferior immunity compared to what your body would receive from natural exposure to a disease.
Immunity is a complicated process with many moving parts—immunological, neurological, and endocrinological—not the dumbed down version the pharmaceutical industry feeds to the public. The common reductionist notion that immunity involves nothing more than a simple antigen-antibody response is a gross oversimplification—not to mention the arrogance that, with a vaccine, they can improve on a biological process that Nature has been perfecting for thousands or even millions of years. Take measles, for example. According to Dr. Suzanne Humphries:7

"Since most vaccines are delivered by injection, the mucous membranes are bypassed and thus blood antibodies are produced but not mucosal antibodies. Mucosal exposure is what contributes to the production of antibodies in the mammary gland. A child's exposure to the virus while being breastfed by a naturally immune mother would lead to an asymptomatic infection that results in long-term immunity to that virus. Vaccinated mothers have lower levels of virus-specific antibodies in the serum and milk, compared to naturally immune mothers, and thus their infants are unprotected."​

Prior to the vaccine era, mothers were naturally immune to measles and passed on that immunity to their infants via placenta and breast milk. But vaccinated mothers cannot pass along vaccine-induced "immunity" because of the issue described above. As a result, infants whose mothers were born after 1963 are more susceptible to measles than are infants of older mothers. For a healthy child with normal immune function, measles is not a deadly disease—in fact, 30 percent of measles cases among the unvaccinated are missed because they are so mild.8
It should also be noted that the recently reported pertussis (whooping cough)9 and mumps outbreaks10 have occurred predominantly among the vaccinated –and measles "outbreaks"11 have also involved vaccinated persons —invalidating claims that vaccinated people cannot get sick from or transmit infectious diseases. The fact that a lot of vaccinated people still get sick is a prime example of how getting vaccinated is not a "good health" guarantee. In fact, keeping your immune system healthy through good nutrition, exercise, reduction of stress, and limiting exposure to environmental toxins is a much better strategy for staying well and also for helping you to heal more quickly if you do get sick.​

The Truth About Herd Immunity

Download Interview Transcript​

One of the most commonly parroted sound bites in the vaccine debate is the term "herd immunity," tossed around by vaccine advocates who don't really understand the concept. They suggest that if 95 percent or more of the population can be made "immune" to an infectious disease via vaccination, the disease will be eradicated or controlled. Despite these claims, there is little proof that vaccines are responsible for eradicating diseases even when "herd immunity" vaccination levels are reached. Recent outbreaks of common diseases like measles are evidence of this.
Overvaccination not only exposes people to potentially dangerous adverse reactions, but it may damage the health of the greater community. Take varicella zoster (chickenpox), for example. According to Dr. Humphries:12

"Prior to the universal varicella vaccination program, 95 percent of adults experienced natural chickenpox (usually as school aged children)—these cases were usually benign and resulted in long term immunity. This high percentage of individuals having long term immunity has been compromised by mass vaccination of children, which provides at best 70 to 90 percent immunity that is temporary and of unknown duration—shifting chickenpox to a more vulnerable adult population where chickenpox carries 20 times more risk of death and 15 times more risk of hospitalization compared to children. Add to this the adverse effects of both the chickenpox and shingles vaccines, as well as the potential for increased risk of shingles for an estimated 30 to 50 years among adults."​

A young child with active chickenpox, who comes into contact with an adult who had chickenpox as a child, is giving the adult a natural "booster" that will not cause symptoms but will strengthen the adult's immunity to the disease. But since the introduction of the chickenpox vaccine in 1995 in the US, followed by chickenpox vaccine mandates in the states, there are fewer natural boosters for the adult population. Now, there is a shingles (herpes zoster) epidemic among adults – and Merck is the sole producer of both chickenpox and shingles vaccine in the US!​

Vaccines Invite New Strains to the Party

Vaccines are having the unintended effect of creating new strains and more virulent strains of disease, in a similar way as antibiotic overuse has led to antibiotic resistance. The B. pertussis organism that causes whooping cough has evolved to evade the DPT/DtaP vaccines that have been used worldwide since the early 1950s. A mutated B. pertussis strain has emerged and is associated with severe symptoms.13
Sometimes, the pressure placed by vaccines on an organism causes non-vaccine strains to become more dominant. This is true of some of the more than 80 pneumococcal strains that are not contained in pneumococcal vaccines (Prevnar-7 and Prevnar-13), and have become prevalent since the vaccines were introduced in 2000.14 Some of these non-vaccine strains are now causing severe disease. This phenomenon is a direct result of the pressure on the organisms to adapt and survive.
The point is, even if vaccines were somehow miraculously able to eradicate all of our most dreaded infectious diseases, it's only a matter of time before new versions will appear—and potentially with heightened virulence! Life has a way of finding a means to survive. And you will be less prepared to fight off these new invaders if your immune system is compromised, as it can be from vaccines. With that in mind, vaccination may very well be promoting infectious disease, rather than eliminating it.15
If you are thinking there MUST be a better way to stay healthy than continuously adding new vaccines, you are right! There is no complicated recipe, no extensive protocols... just good basic lifestyle choices. Eat well, sleep well, exercise effectively and consistently, manage your stress, and avoid toxic exposures whenever possible. Making a few lifestyle adjustments will allow you to build your health naturally, including your resistance to illness. And of course, we can all benefit from the support and care of a good physician!​

Finding an Enlightened Physician

If you are a parent, it's up to you to find a doctor you can trust who will avoid administering vaccines in the face of previous vaccine reactions. Don't be afraid to stand up for your right to protect your child. There are enlightened pediatricians who take a "precautionary approach" because they care about preventing adverse reactions, injuries, and deaths. It's your health, your family, your choice.
Search until you find a compassionate and knowledgeable health care practitioner who will work with you to make the best decisions for you and your family. If you are the parent of a newborn, be extremely careful with all drugs and use them ONLY if absolutely necessary. As you have seen, infants are the most vulnerable. If you or your child experiences an adverse reaction to a drug or vaccine, please consult your physician immediately and report it to VAERS, the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System, and encourage your physician to do the same.​

 

[JoChris]

It won't work to try and use JoChris's cop-out by saying "this is not the religious forum".
We are not debating religion we are discussing Truth (which is what actual REAL science is b.t.w. and it is an EXACT science).

Whether you like it or not, it is technically the non-religion section. There are some people *shock horror* who don't like reading religious discussions. You could introduce a related topic in the religion section.

Objective, observable truth provides evidence. In the area of medicine personal claims and testimonies are not enough.

Healthy diet and exercise programs have been proven to be important to prevent disease.

Once an serious infectious disease is caught, healthy diet and exercise is not enough to stop the disease process, and stop its transmission to others.

It is a social responsibility and a personal responsibility to get fully immunised.

 

[bible_student]

So if you get sick you NEVER take any medications? Not even panadol?

Correct.

Have you already decided you will not take medications if you become seriously ill for whatever reason?

I've already not been taking pharmaceutical drugs (not even panadol) for about 13 years and not needed them.

There are many natural medicines like turmeric, clove, etc. that are more effective than pharmaceutical ones.

 

[JoChris]

Check the sources in the article.

By Dr. Mercola

A groundbreaking new drug safety study in Shanghai, China, provides some much needed information about the frequency of vaccine drug reactions among children.​

Adverse drug reactions are a serious public health concern and one of the leading causes of morbidity and mortality worldwide.1 More than a half million children are treated every year for adverse drug reactions in US outpatient clinics and emergency rooms.2​

The Shanghai study, based on reported pediatric adverse drug reactions (ADRs) for 2009, found that 42 percent were caused by vaccines, with reactions ranging from mild skin rashes to deadly reactions like anaphylaxis and death. Of all the drugs causing adverse reactions among children, vaccines are the most commonly reported.3, 4​

This study is particularly significant because the vast majority of reports came from physicians, pharmacists, and other health care providers. Less than three percent of the reports were from consumers.​

Another safety report5 about pediatric drug reactions was just published by the Institute for Safe Medication Practices (ISMP) and lists the top 15 drugs causing serious adverse reactions in children.​

Psychiatric drugs and analgesics (especially ibuprofen) figure prominently in their top 15 list. The report also mentions psychological side effects such as aggression and suicidal ideation as frequent symptoms from 10 of the 15 most commonly reported drugs.​

Drugs and Vaccines Are More Dangerous for the Very Young

Three major trends emerged in the Chinese drug reaction study:​

• Gender: Males (60 percent) were represented more than females (40 percent)
• Age: Young children were more susceptible to harm; 65 percent of the adverse drug reactions were reported for children age 5 and under, and about 40 percent involved children aged 2 months to 2 years. The highest proportion of serious reports was for newborns (0 to 1 month). The ISMP and other researchers have confirmed that the number of adverse drug reactions is highest in the first year of life—so parents of newborns, beware!6
• "Polypharmacy": The more drugs a child is exposed to, the higher the proportion of serious reactions; drug-to-drug interactions (DDI) are increasingly problematic with today's practice of "polypharmacy"(using two or more drugs together)

Vaccine reactions are very difficult to detect because often, multiple vaccines are given together, with synergistic toxicities and multiple adverse interactions occurring, which makes it hard to know what is causing what. Vaccine reactions are also notoriously underreported, as many physicians brush off symptoms as mere "coincidence," denying they have anything to do with vaccination.​

The Chinese researchers made the following statement about why they believe vaccines are causing so many adverse reactions:​

"The ADR rate caused by vaccines is much higher than other drugs, and this may be related to the types and number of vaccinations being used in China, as the types of routine immunization vaccines in China reach up to 15 kinds, which is much higher than seven kinds in India and Vietnam, nine kinds in Thailand and 11 kinds in America, and most of the vaccines in China are attenuated live vaccines, which may bring a greater potential safety hazard."​

Advertisement

High Infant Mortality and High Infant Vaccine Rates—Are They Related?

The US has one of the highest infant mortality rates in the developed world. Yet, American infants are given the greatest number of vaccines—26 doses of vaccines by the end of their first year. Can this really be a coincidence? If vaccines were doing a good job at safeguarding children's health, the US should be enjoying extremely low infant mortality, shouldn't it?​

Acute adverse reactions that are actually reported are just the tip of the iceberg. There are many more deleterious effects when you consider post-vaccination brain inflammation (encephalitis) and encephalopathy, immune dysfunction, paralysis, and other long-term health sequelae that have been causally related to both live attenuated virus and inactivated vaccines around the world, especially the types used in developing nations. The tragic results of this are poignantly illustrated in the featured study.​

If your child's immune system is not functioning properly, he or she may be more susceptible than the average child to suffering a serious vaccine reaction. The unfortunate part is, currently there are few ways to determine in advance whether or not your child has normal immune function or has other biological, genetic, or environmental risk factors that greatly increase individual susceptibility to suffering harm from vaccinations.​

This means that an adverse vaccine reaction may be your first indication your child's immune system is vulnerable to atypical manipulation by vaccines —and sadly, in some cases, the brain or immune system damage caused by vaccination is severe and permanent. According to Dr. Kelly Brogan, one of the most fundamental problems with today's vaccine paradigm is that vaccine safety has not been studied—much less proven: "The current schedule has never been studied – not one vaccine in a vaccinated vs. unvaccinated design, let alone multiple delivered at once, or the entire long-term effects of 49 doses of 14 vaccines by age 6."​

The Government Gives Vaccine Manufacturers a Free Pass

In 1988, Congress passed a law shielding physicians and vaccine manufacturers from vaccine injury lawsuits. Prior to this law, most doctors were much more cautious about giving vaccines to children who had a prior adverse vaccine reaction—for fear of being sued.​

For example, the whole cell pertussis vaccine in the DPT shot was notorious for causing seizures, high pitched screaming, and collapse shock due to brain inflammation. Prior to 1988, pediatricians were warned not to give the DPT to children who had a history of seizures in the first 72 hours following a DPT. But now that doctors and vaccine manufacturers are protected from lawsuits, vaccine reactions are regarded as "less significant," even "coincidental"... of course, they're NOT insignificant when it's your child who is having one! The vaccine manufacturers and physicians are being taken care of... but who is protecting your child?​

A Fundamentally Flawed Concept of Immunity

Vaccine manufacturers would like you to believe that the "immunity" you receive from vaccines is equal to or better than what is conferred through natural exposure to the infection, but this simply isn't the case. There are important differences between naturally acquired immunity and temporary vaccine-induced antibody production. Vaccines are never 100 percent protective because they provide only artificial, temporary, typically inferior immunity compared to what your body would receive from natural exposure to a disease.​

Immunity is a complicated process with many moving parts—immunological, neurological, and endocrinological—not the dumbed down version the pharmaceutical industry feeds to the public. The common reductionist notion that immunity involves nothing more than a simple antigen-antibody response is a gross oversimplification—not to mention the arrogance that, with a vaccine, they can improve on a biological process that Nature has been perfecting for thousands or even millions of years. Take measles, for example. According to Dr. Suzanne Humphries:7​

"Since most vaccines are delivered by injection, the mucous membranes are bypassed and thus blood antibodies are produced but not mucosal antibodies. Mucosal exposure is what contributes to the production of antibodies in the mammary gland. A child's exposure to the virus while being breastfed by a naturally immune mother would lead to an asymptomatic infection that results in long-term immunity to that virus. Vaccinated mothers have lower levels of virus-specific antibodies in the serum and milk, compared to naturally immune mothers, and thus their infants are unprotected."​

Prior to the vaccine era, mothers were naturally immune to measles and passed on that immunity to their infants via placenta and breast milk. But vaccinated mothers cannot pass along vaccine-induced "immunity" because of the issue described above. As a result, infants whose mothers were born after 1963 are more susceptible to measles than are infants of older mothers. For a healthy child with normal immune function, measles is not a deadly disease—in fact, 30 percent of measles cases among the unvaccinated are missed because they are so mild.8​

It should also be noted that the recently reported pertussis (whooping cough)9 and mumps outbreaks10 have occurred predominantly among the vaccinated –and measles "outbreaks"11 have also involved vaccinated persons —invalidating claims that vaccinated people cannot get sick from or transmit infectious diseases. The fact that a lot of vaccinated people still get sick is a prime example of how getting vaccinated is not a "good health" guarantee. In fact, keeping your immune system healthy through good nutrition, exercise, reduction of stress, and limiting exposure to environmental toxins is a much better strategy for staying well and also for helping you to heal more quickly if you do get sick.​

The Truth About Herd Immunity

​

Download Interview Transcript​

One of the most commonly parroted sound bites in the vaccine debate is the term "herd immunity," tossed around by vaccine advocates who don't really understand the concept. They suggest that if 95 percent or more of the population can be made "immune" to an infectious disease via vaccination, the disease will be eradicated or controlled. Despite these claims, there is little proof that vaccines are responsible for eradicating diseases even when "herd immunity" vaccination levels are reached. Recent outbreaks of common diseases like measles are evidence of this.​

Overvaccination not only exposes people to potentially dangerous adverse reactions, but it may damage the health of the greater community. Take varicella zoster (chickenpox), for example. According to Dr. Humphries:12​

"Prior to the universal varicella vaccination program, 95 percent of adults experienced natural chickenpox (usually as school aged children)—these cases were usually benign and resulted in long term immunity. This high percentage of individuals having long term immunity has been compromised by mass vaccination of children, which provides at best 70 to 90 percent immunity that is temporary and of unknown duration—shifting chickenpox to a more vulnerable adult population where chickenpox carries 20 times more risk of death and 15 times more risk of hospitalization compared to children. Add to this the adverse effects of both the chickenpox and shingles vaccines, as well as the potential for increased risk of shingles for an estimated 30 to 50 years among adults."​

A young child with active chickenpox, who comes into contact with an adult who had chickenpox as a child, is giving the adult a natural "booster" that will not cause symptoms but will strengthen the adult's immunity to the disease. But since the introduction of the chickenpox vaccine in 1995 in the US, followed by chickenpox vaccine mandates in the states, there are fewer natural boosters for the adult population. Now, there is a shingles (herpes zoster) epidemic among adults – and Merck is the sole producer of both chickenpox and shingles vaccine in the US!​

Vaccines Invite New Strains to the Party

Vaccines are having the unintended effect of creating new strains and more virulent strains of disease, in a similar way as antibiotic overuse has led to antibiotic resistance. The B. pertussis organism that causes whooping cough has evolved to evade the DPT/DtaP vaccines that have been used worldwide since the early 1950s. A mutated B. pertussis strain has emerged and is associated with severe symptoms.13​

Sometimes, the pressure placed by vaccines on an organism causes non-vaccine strains to become more dominant. This is true of some of the more than 80 pneumococcal strains that are not contained in pneumococcal vaccines (Prevnar-7 and Prevnar-13), and have become prevalent since the vaccines were introduced in 2000.14 Some of these non-vaccine strains are now causing severe disease. This phenomenon is a direct result of the pressure on the organisms to adapt and survive.​

The point is, even if vaccines were somehow miraculously able to eradicate all of our most dreaded infectious diseases, it's only a matter of time before new versions will appear—and potentially with heightened virulence! Life has a way of finding a means to survive. And you will be less prepared to fight off these new invaders if your immune system is compromised, as it can be from vaccines. With that in mind, vaccination may very well be promoting infectious disease, rather than eliminating it.15​

If you are thinking there MUST be a better way to stay healthy than continuously adding new vaccines, you are right! There is no complicated recipe, no extensive protocols... just good basic lifestyle choices. Eat well, sleep well, exercise effectively and consistently, manage your stress, and avoid toxic exposures whenever possible. Making a few lifestyle adjustments will allow you to build your health naturally, including your resistance to illness. And of course, we can all benefit from the support and care of a good physician!​

Finding an Enlightened Physician

If you are a parent, it's up to you to find a doctor you can trust who will avoid administering vaccines in the face of previous vaccine reactions. Don't be afraid to stand up for your right to protect your child. There are enlightened pediatricians who take a "precautionary approach" because they care about preventing adverse reactions, injuries, and deaths. It's your health, your family, your choice.​

Search until you find a compassionate and knowledgeable health care practitioner who will work with you to make the best decisions for you and your family. If you are the parent of a newborn, be extremely careful with all drugs and use them ONLY if absolutely necessary. As you have seen, infants are the most vulnerable. If you or your child experiences an adverse reaction to a drug or vaccine, please consult your physician immediately and report it to VAERS, the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System, and encourage your physician to do the same.​

All the links are from Mercola. They are not independent opinions.

 

[JoChris]

Correct.

I've already not been taking pharmaceutical drugs (not even panadol) for about 13 years and not needed them.
,
There are many natural medicines like turmeric, clove, etc. that are more effective than pharmaceutical ones.

You obviously have been blessed with good health then.
What about people who have serious health conditions like diabetics - if a diabetic takes insulin injections, are they doing wrong because they are using drugs, not using herbs etc.?

 

[manama]

Check the sources in the article.

By Dr. Mercola

A groundbreaking new drug safety study in Shanghai, China, provides some much needed information about the frequency of vaccine drug reactions among children.​

Adverse drug reactions are a serious public health concern and one of the leading causes of morbidity and mortality worldwide.1 More than a half million children are treated every year for adverse drug reactions in US outpatient clinics and emergency rooms.2​

The Shanghai study, based on reported pediatric adverse drug reactions (ADRs) for 2009, found that 42 percent were caused by vaccines, with reactions ranging from mild skin rashes to deadly reactions like anaphylaxis and death. Of all the drugs causing adverse reactions among children, vaccines are the most commonly reported.3, 4​

This study is particularly significant because the vast majority of reports came from physicians, pharmacists, and other health care providers. Less than three percent of the reports were from consumers.​

Another safety report5 about pediatric drug reactions was just published by the Institute for Safe Medication Practices (ISMP) and lists the top 15 drugs causing serious adverse reactions in children.​

Psychiatric drugs and analgesics (especially ibuprofen) figure prominently in their top 15 list. The report also mentions psychological side effects such as aggression and suicidal ideation as frequent symptoms from 10 of the 15 most commonly reported drugs.​

Drugs and Vaccines Are More Dangerous for the Very Young

Three major trends emerged in the Chinese drug reaction study:​

• Gender: Males (60 percent) were represented more than females (40 percent)
• Age: Young children were more susceptible to harm; 65 percent of the adverse drug reactions were reported for children age 5 and under, and about 40 percent involved children aged 2 months to 2 years. The highest proportion of serious reports was for newborns (0 to 1 month). The ISMP and other researchers have confirmed that the number of adverse drug reactions is highest in the first year of life—so parents of newborns, beware!6
• "Polypharmacy": The more drugs a child is exposed to, the higher the proportion of serious reactions; drug-to-drug interactions (DDI) are increasingly problematic with today's practice of "polypharmacy"(using two or more drugs together)

Vaccine reactions are very difficult to detect because often, multiple vaccines are given together, with synergistic toxicities and multiple adverse interactions occurring, which makes it hard to know what is causing what. Vaccine reactions are also notoriously underreported, as many physicians brush off symptoms as mere "coincidence," denying they have anything to do with vaccination.​

The Chinese researchers made the following statement about why they believe vaccines are causing so many adverse reactions:​

"The ADR rate caused by vaccines is much higher than other drugs, and this may be related to the types and number of vaccinations being used in China, as the types of routine immunization vaccines in China reach up to 15 kinds, which is much higher than seven kinds in India and Vietnam, nine kinds in Thailand and 11 kinds in America, and most of the vaccines in China are attenuated live vaccines, which may bring a greater potential safety hazard."​

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High Infant Mortality and High Infant Vaccine Rates—Are They Related?

The US has one of the highest infant mortality rates in the developed world. Yet, American infants are given the greatest number of vaccines—26 doses of vaccines by the end of their first year. Can this really be a coincidence? If vaccines were doing a good job at safeguarding children's health, the US should be enjoying extremely low infant mortality, shouldn't it?​

Acute adverse reactions that are actually reported are just the tip of the iceberg. There are many more deleterious effects when you consider post-vaccination brain inflammation (encephalitis) and encephalopathy, immune dysfunction, paralysis, and other long-term health sequelae that have been causally related to both live attenuated virus and inactivated vaccines around the world, especially the types used in developing nations. The tragic results of this are poignantly illustrated in the featured study.​

If your child's immune system is not functioning properly, he or she may be more susceptible than the average child to suffering a serious vaccine reaction. The unfortunate part is, currently there are few ways to determine in advance whether or not your child has normal immune function or has other biological, genetic, or environmental risk factors that greatly increase individual susceptibility to suffering harm from vaccinations.​

This means that an adverse vaccine reaction may be your first indication your child's immune system is vulnerable to atypical manipulation by vaccines —and sadly, in some cases, the brain or immune system damage caused by vaccination is severe and permanent. According to Dr. Kelly Brogan, one of the most fundamental problems with today's vaccine paradigm is that vaccine safety has not been studied—much less proven: "The current schedule has never been studied – not one vaccine in a vaccinated vs. unvaccinated design, let alone multiple delivered at once, or the entire long-term effects of 49 doses of 14 vaccines by age 6."​

The Government Gives Vaccine Manufacturers a Free Pass

In 1988, Congress passed a law shielding physicians and vaccine manufacturers from vaccine injury lawsuits. Prior to this law, most doctors were much more cautious about giving vaccines to children who had a prior adverse vaccine reaction—for fear of being sued.​

For example, the whole cell pertussis vaccine in the DPT shot was notorious for causing seizures, high pitched screaming, and collapse shock due to brain inflammation. Prior to 1988, pediatricians were warned not to give the DPT to children who had a history of seizures in the first 72 hours following a DPT. But now that doctors and vaccine manufacturers are protected from lawsuits, vaccine reactions are regarded as "less significant," even "coincidental"... of course, they're NOT insignificant when it's your child who is having one! The vaccine manufacturers and physicians are being taken care of... but who is protecting your child?​

A Fundamentally Flawed Concept of Immunity

Vaccine manufacturers would like you to believe that the "immunity" you receive from vaccines is equal to or better than what is conferred through natural exposure to the infection, but this simply isn't the case. There are important differences between naturally acquired immunity and temporary vaccine-induced antibody production. Vaccines are never 100 percent protective because they provide only artificial, temporary, typically inferior immunity compared to what your body would receive from natural exposure to a disease.​

Immunity is a complicated process with many moving parts—immunological, neurological, and endocrinological—not the dumbed down version the pharmaceutical industry feeds to the public. The common reductionist notion that immunity involves nothing more than a simple antigen-antibody response is a gross oversimplification—not to mention the arrogance that, with a vaccine, they can improve on a biological process that Nature has been perfecting for thousands or even millions of years. Take measles, for example. According to Dr. Suzanne Humphries:7​

"Since most vaccines are delivered by injection, the mucous membranes are bypassed and thus blood antibodies are produced but not mucosal antibodies. Mucosal exposure is what contributes to the production of antibodies in the mammary gland. A child's exposure to the virus while being breastfed by a naturally immune mother would lead to an asymptomatic infection that results in long-term immunity to that virus. Vaccinated mothers have lower levels of virus-specific antibodies in the serum and milk, compared to naturally immune mothers, and thus their infants are unprotected."​

Prior to the vaccine era, mothers were naturally immune to measles and passed on that immunity to their infants via placenta and breast milk. But vaccinated mothers cannot pass along vaccine-induced "immunity" because of the issue described above. As a result, infants whose mothers were born after 1963 are more susceptible to measles than are infants of older mothers. For a healthy child with normal immune function, measles is not a deadly disease—in fact, 30 percent of measles cases among the unvaccinated are missed because they are so mild.8​

It should also be noted that the recently reported pertussis (whooping cough)9 and mumps outbreaks10 have occurred predominantly among the vaccinated –and measles "outbreaks"11 have also involved vaccinated persons —invalidating claims that vaccinated people cannot get sick from or transmit infectious diseases. The fact that a lot of vaccinated people still get sick is a prime example of how getting vaccinated is not a "good health" guarantee. In fact, keeping your immune system healthy through good nutrition, exercise, reduction of stress, and limiting exposure to environmental toxins is a much better strategy for staying well and also for helping you to heal more quickly if you do get sick.​

The Truth About Herd Immunity

​

Download Interview Transcript​

One of the most commonly parroted sound bites in the vaccine debate is the term "herd immunity," tossed around by vaccine advocates who don't really understand the concept. They suggest that if 95 percent or more of the population can be made "immune" to an infectious disease via vaccination, the disease will be eradicated or controlled. Despite these claims, there is little proof that vaccines are responsible for eradicating diseases even when "herd immunity" vaccination levels are reached. Recent outbreaks of common diseases like measles are evidence of this.​

Overvaccination not only exposes people to potentially dangerous adverse reactions, but it may damage the health of the greater community. Take varicella zoster (chickenpox), for example. According to Dr. Humphries:12​

"Prior to the universal varicella vaccination program, 95 percent of adults experienced natural chickenpox (usually as school aged children)—these cases were usually benign and resulted in long term immunity. This high percentage of individuals having long term immunity has been compromised by mass vaccination of children, which provides at best 70 to 90 percent immunity that is temporary and of unknown duration—shifting chickenpox to a more vulnerable adult population where chickenpox carries 20 times more risk of death and 15 times more risk of hospitalization compared to children. Add to this the adverse effects of both the chickenpox and shingles vaccines, as well as the potential for increased risk of shingles for an estimated 30 to 50 years among adults."​

A young child with active chickenpox, who comes into contact with an adult who had chickenpox as a child, is giving the adult a natural "booster" that will not cause symptoms but will strengthen the adult's immunity to the disease. But since the introduction of the chickenpox vaccine in 1995 in the US, followed by chickenpox vaccine mandates in the states, there are fewer natural boosters for the adult population. Now, there is a shingles (herpes zoster) epidemic among adults – and Merck is the sole producer of both chickenpox and shingles vaccine in the US!​

Vaccines Invite New Strains to the Party

Vaccines are having the unintended effect of creating new strains and more virulent strains of disease, in a similar way as antibiotic overuse has led to antibiotic resistance. The B. pertussis organism that causes whooping cough has evolved to evade the DPT/DtaP vaccines that have been used worldwide since the early 1950s. A mutated B. pertussis strain has emerged and is associated with severe symptoms.13​

Sometimes, the pressure placed by vaccines on an organism causes non-vaccine strains to become more dominant. This is true of some of the more than 80 pneumococcal strains that are not contained in pneumococcal vaccines (Prevnar-7 and Prevnar-13), and have become prevalent since the vaccines were introduced in 2000.14 Some of these non-vaccine strains are now causing severe disease. This phenomenon is a direct result of the pressure on the organisms to adapt and survive.​

The point is, even if vaccines were somehow miraculously able to eradicate all of our most dreaded infectious diseases, it's only a matter of time before new versions will appear—and potentially with heightened virulence! Life has a way of finding a means to survive. And you will be less prepared to fight off these new invaders if your immune system is compromised, as it can be from vaccines. With that in mind, vaccination may very well be promoting infectious disease, rather than eliminating it.15​

If you are thinking there MUST be a better way to stay healthy than continuously adding new vaccines, you are right! There is no complicated recipe, no extensive protocols... just good basic lifestyle choices. Eat well, sleep well, exercise effectively and consistently, manage your stress, and avoid toxic exposures whenever possible. Making a few lifestyle adjustments will allow you to build your health naturally, including your resistance to illness. And of course, we can all benefit from the support and care of a good physician!​

Finding an Enlightened Physician

If you are a parent, it's up to you to find a doctor you can trust who will avoid administering vaccines in the face of previous vaccine reactions. Don't be afraid to stand up for your right to protect your child. There are enlightened pediatricians who take a "precautionary approach" because they care about preventing adverse reactions, injuries, and deaths. It's your health, your family, your choice.​

Search until you find a compassionate and knowledgeable health care practitioner who will work with you to make the best decisions for you and your family. If you are the parent of a newborn, be extremely careful with all drugs and use them ONLY if absolutely necessary. As you have seen, infants are the most vulnerable. If you or your child experiences an adverse reaction to a drug or vaccine, please consult your physician immediately and report it to VAERS, the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System, and encourage your physician to do the same.​

Thats is not a study, its saying that stuff happened, the article you copypasted. Which is complete bullshit looking at the immunity paragraph. I want to see the study.
You say you have a scientific background then surely you know what a "Study" looks like.

 

[bible_student]

Whether you like it or not, it is technically the non-religion section.

And as stated, we are not discussing religion, we are discussing (True) science.

There are some people *shock horror* who don't like reading religious discussions.

It's not a religious discussion.

You could introduce a related topic in the religion section.

It's not a religious topic, it's about real science and health.

Objective, observable truth provides evidence.

Correct. Do it and you will see the evidence.

John
7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but His that sent me.
7:17 If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

In the area of medicine personal claims and testimonies are not enough.

It is for the people who make them.

Healthy diet and exercise programs have been proven to be important to prevent disease.

Agreed.

Once an serious infectious disease is caught, healthy diet and exercise is not enough to stop the disease process, and stop its transmission to others.

Healthy diet and healthy living is what will prevent disease.

It is a social responsibility and a personal responsibility to get fully immunised.

If you feel that way then that is up to you and it is your free-will decision, but you are not allowed to then force your view onto others and try to make them be like you. That would be a violation of their free-will to not want to be like you are.

 

[manama]

It won't work to try and use JoChris's cop-out by saying "this is not the religious forum" when you lose.
We are not debating religion we are discussing Truth (which is what actual REAL science is b.t.w. and it is an EXACT science).

There have been people banned on the site for bringing religion into other threads before. Just because VC is keeping a light hand doesn't change that this is not a place to discuss religion.

From people who have told you they don't want them.

By your logic, a rapist can then also say to you that you are "withholding r*pe" from the people who the rapist is sure in their own sick mind really actually wants to be r*pe by them, because the rapist has a satanically controlled mind.

Stupid argument.

So? What makes you think it would be wise to interfere with that if it happens? Everything happens for a reason. By interfering you cause people to then have to grow up in unhealthy/substandard bodies and being chronically ill and having trouble with a weak immune system due to your interference with nature, so, you are actually setting them up and causing them a lot of unnecessary pain and suffering, which would never have happened if you had just let things be.

Why would you want to do this to them?
You should let nature take it's course. It's part of the built-in natural quality control system as God has designed it. But if you then start interfering and prevent all these sick/unsuitable babies (bodies) from dying you are filling the world with weak and chronically sick and suffering people. They then have children and pass on the defects to others and it just keeps getting worse and worse until everyone is sick and dying. So, by doing that you are creating and multiplying pain and suffering throughout the world (which is exactly what Satan wants) and thereby doing yourself and everyone else a great disservice.

Um yes?
It takes more than a week for the immune system to detect certain viruses like polio It takes the person to be paralysed for other people and the child to notice that something is wrong. It takes 1 week for the child to already be beyond saving. If you don't interfere, when you have the means to do so. You're committing a crime which can legally get you jail time.

And you have no idea how immune system works, you can not naturally get immunity against a certain disease unless you get the disease itself.
Death is a thing, sometimes it happens by a car accident, sometimes its a virus. But if you run your truck over someone and say God wanted that, it wouldn't prevent your jail sentence and it wouldn't stop your punishment in the after life. Its the same with the virus. You know the child is going to get infected and die or be permanently paralysed, you had a vaccine. You didn't give it to the child. You are responsible for the murder.

 

[manama]

It's not a religious discussion.
It's not a religious topic, it's about real science and health.

Then stop quoting religious scriptures and start quoting science.

 

[bible_student]

You obviously have been blessed with good health then.

Yes, thankfully I do have it now, but it was not always like that.

What about people who have serious health conditions like diabetics - if a diabetic takes insulin injections, are they doing wrong because they are using drugs, not using herbs etc.?

It would be better for them if they can get healthy again and not need insulin.

I'm not really the one to ask about this specifically, but it would make sense to me based on what I know that if they are diabetic, then the first priority should be to lose all of the excess weight, asap. That would probably be enough to completely cure them already if they did that. The fastest way and best to do that might be to fast until all the excess weight is gone, or to do several shorter fasts with breaks in between, until the weight is gone.

I know someone who used to be very overweight at one point but he then fasted 50+ something days, on water only and until it was all gone and burnt off and he has been very healthy and strong since and like me, doesn't get anymore sick either. If you ask him why this is and how it is possible he might say to you something like:

"It because of living by The Law and following the healthy balanced diet contained in it and since I started living by The Law I no longer get sick."

 

[JoChris]

Healthy diet and healthy living is what will prevent disease.

That short statement shows how little you know about health.

There are so many diseases that happen despite the best diet and exercise programs.
Fit and healthy people still can have heart attacks.
Healthy parents sometimes have sick children e.g. genetic defects.
Prolonged stress makes all people sick eventually.
Some Physical injuries cannot be fully repaired e.g. head injuries.


And some diseases will still always require immunizations to eradicate them 100%. Diet never cured polio, immunizations did via preventing people catching it in the first place.

 

[JoChris]

Yes, thankfully I do have it now, but it was not always like that.

It would be better for them if they can get healthy again and not need insulin.

I'm not really the one to ask about this specifically, but it would make sense to me based on what I know that if they are diabetic, then the first priority should be to lose all of the excess weight, asap. That would probably be enough to completely cure them already if they did that. The fastest way and best to do that might be to fast until all the excess weight is gone, or to do several shorter fasts with breaks in between, until the weight is gone.

I know someone who used to be very overweight at one point but he then fasted 50+ something days, on water only and until it was all gone and burnt off and he has been very healthy and strong since and like me, doesn't get anymore sick either. If you ask him why this is and how it is possible he might say to you something like:

"It because of living by The Law and following the healthy balanced diet contained in it and since I started living by The Law I no longer get sick."

Diabetics with Type 1 need insulin injections for the rest of their life. It has nothing to do with weight.
Diabetics with Type 2 need medications for the rest of their life UNLESS a huge amount of weight loss reverses the disease process, and even then the diet has to be closely monitored.

Taking medication for health conditions is merely being responsible. That includes immunizations.

 

[bible_student]

There have been people banned on the site for bringing religion into other threads before. Just because VC is keeping a light hand doesn't change that this is not a place to discuss religion.

Trying to get someone banned because you have lost the argument is very lame and cowardly (typical of Satan) but it still won't make you right.

Stupid argument.

No it is not. It is just a logical and easy to understand analogy.

Um yes?
It takes more than a week for the immune system to detect certain viruses like polio It takes the person to be paralysed for other people and the child to notice that something is wrong. It takes 1 week for the child to already be beyond saving. If you don't interfere, when you have the means to do so. You're committing a crime which can legally get you jail time.

Under what law? Satanically inspired man-made legislation or God's Law? Certainly not under God's Law.

And you have no idea how immune system works, you can not naturally get immunity against a certain disease unless you get the disease itself.

Which then allows your immune system to become stronger by overcoming it. But it won't work if you keep sabotaging it by interfering with vaccines, etc.

Death is a thing, sometimes it happens by a car accident, sometimes its a virus.

Death of the body is a perfectly natural part of life here.

But if you run your truck over someone and say God wanted that, it wouldn't prevent your jail sentence and it wouldn't stop your punishment in the after life. Its the same with the virus. You know the child is going to get infected and die or be permanently paralysed, you had a vaccine. You didn't give it to the child. You are responsible for the murder.

That is not the same at all. You are free think that about your own child, but you do not have the right to force your view on others.

It's the parents who have the right to decide. It's their children. The children belong to them, not to the state.