Unveiled Faces

JoChris

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My great uncle, after a lifetime of Atheism was ill, off his feet and watching some creation videos on how information cannot arise by chance. He watched quite a bit as his legs were letting him down!

All he said to us at the end, with an inscrutable expression was "it's all true"...

God has ways of reaching us.
Well I feel like I did a way worse job than Balaam's ass tonight. I "succeeded" in getting my husband to pull the Noah's Ark card (my son smirked at that) and my son to say that I had a right to my own beliefs (proving he is unsaved).
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Well I feel like I did a way worse job than Balaam's ass tonight. I "succeeded" in getting my husband to pull the Noah's Ark card (my son smirked at that) and my son to say that I had a right to my own beliefs (proving he is unsaved).
Why I say about my great uncle is that for decades he had opposed the Gospel and had been as much an atheist as Dawkins.

For him, what did it was realising that while chance might conceivably produce some raw materials for encoding something (I don't think even this btw), the decoding and translation from DNA to RNA required a language convention. This could not have arisen by chance.

He realised the meaning behind the Logos.

John 1

In the beginning was the Word [logos], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

This was a great general documentary:

 
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JoChris

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Why I say about my great uncle is that for decades he had opposed the Gospel and had been as much an atheist as Dawkins.

For him, what did it was realising that while chance might conceivably produce some raw materials for encoding something (I don't think even this btw), the decoding and translation from DNA to RNA required a language convention. This could not have arisen by chance.

He realised the meaning behind the Logos.

John 1

In the beginning was the Word [logos], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

This was a great general documentary:

It is truly amazing that your uncle did not merely become a theist, but also became a Christian.
Thank you for reminding me only God can open a person's eyes.
 

mecca

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I remember when he was upset when he discovered that people who did not believe in Jesus would go to Hell.
Well I feel like I did a way worse job than Balaam's ass tonight. I "succeeded" in getting my husband to pull the Noah's Ark card (my son smirked at that) and my son to say that I had a right to my own beliefs (proving he is unsaved).
I'm not trying to be rude with this question but do you truly believe your own son and husband are going to hell?
 

JoChris

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The little story summaries from my church I have been meaning to type:
3 quite amazing testimonies I heard, 2 at beginning of the service, the other during the cup-of-tea timeslot between Sunday school and main service.

1. A teenage boy got up and told us that another teenage boy who nearly died last year really shook him up. He was convinced that that teenager would go to heaven, but he knew he himself was not a true believer. As a result of self-examination and studying the Gospel message properly he became born-again.

2. The other teenager's mother got up.
Background story: he had fallen off his bike, split his head open so deeply the brain was showing and deeply unconscious (can't remember if CPR had been required). After being stabilised he was flown via ambulance helicopter to Brisbane (our state capital), needed brain surgery to release brain pressure and skull reconstruction, and then a fair bit of medical treatment for weeks. Except for a scar on his forehead, no-one would know anything had happened to him last year.
The mother said several things had been happening leading up to that incident, her father died and other stressful circumstances. She could not understand at the time but said she now felt she was being prepared for this major incident, and that hearing the young man may have been saved because of what had happened made it all worth while.

The third one, to anyone else but me it would have just been a happy medical story.
I had never talked to this elderly man before. He had been away for several weeks to have hip surgery done.
In short conversation I said that I hoped it had been successful.
He then started telling me that God had been very good to him; all he had needed in his life was two hip surgeries (other done years earlier), he had been a hard worker all his life.
Suddenly "they did scans of my lungs and there was a black shadow - they said I must have had tuberculosis but God must have healed me".
Inwardly my jaw dropped. I merely said that that was wonderful.

In the past few weeks I have watched half of a semi-autobiography movie about a young man diagnosed with TB in the back, and through the movie it showed how moral standards were loosened, and some changes in character occurred in him and fellow patients due to them embracing the "sick role".

I am nearly through the very difficult novel The Magic Mountain again, which is set in pre- World War One days. It is also about a young man who was diagnosed with (thought to be) TB, who embraced the sick role and his character changed a great deal, lowered morals and avoiding adult responsibilities via taking advantage of the sick role.

I never hear of tuberculosis cases in Australia, but I heard that man's short story while I was thinking about the topic. What it means to me personally is a big issue I am untangling presently. I am trying to remove last traces of "sick role" thinking.
 

JoChris

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I'm not trying to be rude with this question but do you truly believe your own son and husband are going to hell?
Yes, they do not believe in Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, just like every person in my family.
They are therefore condemned to hell unless they become (genuine) Christians.
 

mecca

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Yes, they do not believe in Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, just like every person in my family.
They are therefore condemned to hell unless they become (genuine) Christians.
But they must be decent people just like you... There must be no major differences between you and your husband except beliefs... like one of you is not a serial killer or something... so why would one of you go to hell if you're both decent people? I mean, how could you truly believe that your own husband and son who you love deserve to burn in hell for eternity? Why would a simple belief be enough to deserve hell? If God is love, why would he send innocent people to hell? If you love your son and you would not send him to hell, why would God's version of love be to send him to hell?
 

JoChris

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But they must be decent people just like you... There must be no major differences between you and your husband except beliefs... like one of you is not a serial killer or something... so why would one of you go to hell if you're both decent people? I mean, how could you truly believe that your own husband and son who you love deserve to burn in hell for eternity? Why would a simple belief be enough to deserve hell? If God is love, why would he send innocent people to hell? If you love your son and you would not send him to hell, why would God's version of love be to send him to hell?
This would be a good topic for a new religious topic ordinarily, but Atheist Trolling monk has returned to the scene.

I am blessed with a decent atheist husband, whom I love very much. In fact from some Christian wives' accounts of their husbands, I have a way more "Christian" husband than they do.
It does not change the fact that he:
* is impure in God's sight, because he loves his sins (that he doesn't believe in)
* refuses to believe in Jesus
* wants to believe in Science and aliens, anything but God
* does not want to live for anything but himself

Do you get the idea? Jesus showed His love by dying for **whoever** will believe in Him, and my husband has been shown evidence for Jesus by a serious Christian apologist Josh McDowell, shown that TV documentaries deliberately take the bible out of context and he dismisses it all every time.
On numerous times he has been shown by direct intervention in his life that there is more than co-incidence to account for his still being alive on Earth.
e.g. being in an army helicopter that was dangerously close to crashing, being electrocuted with no after affects, army postings that made him rise in seniority unusually quickly (provided money to make up for me being unable to work), every job he applied for until this current job fell through - every other job has since been made redundant, only 2 years after being here he was made task manager, $30 grand pay raise + no shift work.

Our other son's serious heart condition was picked up under incredible circumstances - only by medical assessment for army position. The cardiomyopathy that creates the need for heart transplants. His pay raise + no shift work has made it easy to pay for medical treatment, take to cardiologist 150km away whenever needed and pay for my son's living away from home expenses for university. The same son would never have gone to university if I had not insisted on his doing the proper academic English.

My husband has had multiple occurrences in his life due to God's mercy in his life and mine that would make other people stop and think that there HAS to be a Higher Being. Right now he is seeing how his father is in very poor health and that some serious incidents occurred that could have killed other people if they had not been picked up in time. Each time he dismisses it all as co-incidence he is becoming more damned in God's sight.You are seeing my husband through human perspective, not a godly perspective.
 

elsbet

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But they must be decent people just like you... There must be no major differences between you and your husband except beliefs... like one of you is not a serial killer or something... so why would one of you go to hell if you're both decent people? I mean, how could you truly believe that your own husband and son who you love deserve to burn in hell for eternity? Why would a simple belief be enough to deserve hell? If God is love, why would he send innocent people to hell? If you love your son and you would not send him to hell, why would God's version of love be to send him to hell?
It has nothing to do with decency and behavior. Jeez, how long have you been posting here?
 

mecca

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It has nothing to do with decency and behavior. Jeez, how long have you been posting here?
If someone is a decent person, why are you okay with them burning in hell? If your own son, who you know is a wonderful human being, happens to not believe in Jesus's sacrifice, then you truly think he deserves to suffer for eternity. I don't think that makes sense... I don't think a simple belief is what determines such important things. And I wouldn't consider it just or moral.
 

JoChris

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If someone is a decent person, why are you okay with them burning in hell? If your own son, who you know is a wonderful human being, happens to not believe in Jesus's sacrifice, then you truly think he deserves to suffer for eternity. I don't think that makes sense... I don't think a simple belief is what determines such important things. And I wouldn't consider it just or moral.
i
I gave you my position above. This is supposed to be a Christian fellowship thread.
 

mecca

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I gave you my position above.
But you never really explained why you think sending your son and husband and all your other family to hell for not believing in the sacrifice of Jesus is just and moral even though you love them and they aren't bad people.
This is supposed to be a Christian fellowship thread.
Alright sorry.
 

Violette

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But you never really explained why you think sending your son and husband and all your other family to hell for not believing in the sacrifice of Jesus is just and moral even though you love them and they aren't bad people.

Alright sorry.
She’s not the one sending them to hell so her personal relationship is irrelevant. There’s no “good” people by God’s standards, Jesus talked about this with the rich man and I’m sure you’ve heard Romans 3:23. I’m kind of confused by your position on this, don’t Muslims also believe nonbelievers go to hell?
 

JoChris

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But you never really explained why you think sending your son and husband and all your other family to hell for not believing in the sacrifice of Jesus is just and moral even though you love them and they aren't bad people.

Alright sorry.
In short, I believe the bible in context.

You don't need to apologize any further. I think you are sincere. :) There is a time and a place for debate - it isn't here.

If you genuinely want to understand the Christian viewpoint a mere forum is not the best place to look UNLESS it is a forum *specifically* for Christian apologists interacting with non-Christians. You will not get professional standard apologetics here (I don't think anyone here has had formal theological training?).

Suggested websites about hell for non-Christians:

https://www.bethinking.org/tag/heaven-hell
https://arcapologetics.org/objections/is-hell-real/
http://www.christian-apologetics-resources-and-education.com/Hell-Forever.html
 

mecca

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I’m kind of confused by your position on this, don’t Muslims also believe nonbelievers go to hell?
I have a large portion of Christian family as well and I don't believe they're going to burn in hell and they don't believe I'm going to burn in hell...

Why should I believe they will burn and suffer for eternity? They don't deserve that and it would not be just for that to happen to them just because of a belief.
 

JoChris

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She’s not the one sending them to hell so her personal relationship is irrelevant. There’s no “good” people by God’s standards, Jesus talked about this with the rich man and I’m sure you’ve heard Romans 3:23. I’m kind of confused by your position on this, don’t Muslims also believe nonbelievers go to hell?
That would be a great new thread!
 

mecca

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Why should I believe they will burn and suffer for eternity? They don't deserve that and it would not be just for that to happen to them just because of a belief.
Everyone has beliefs and the reasons for believing it seem valid to each person. There are many circumstances that can lead to someone believing what they do... and it depends a lot on their environment and experiences. Most people were raised in a certain religion and led to believe it was the absolute truth... they don't even have control over the family that they're born into, no one does. If someone went to hell just for their religion and personal beliefs, that would be like punishing someone for the way they were raised or their life's circumstances... but they are innocent and otherwise a very decent human who didn't do anything wrong in life.

And no one knows the absolute truth... no one can truly say that their religion is the only way and people who have different ideas are going to hell. It's not even possible for humans to determine this.
 

JoChris

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I have a large portion of Christian family as well and I don't believe they're going to burn in hell and they don't believe I'm going to burn in hell...

Why should I believe they will burn and suffer for eternity? They don't deserve that and it would not be just for that to happen to them just because of a belief.
How about you cut-and-paste that thought for a new thread between Muslims and Christians?
It would be good if this thread returned to its original purpose.
I am busy now, I will be interested in how Muslims and Christians view hell, especially if there are any other Muslims which explain away Hell also (like it sounds you currently do Mecca).
 

floss

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I have a large portion of Christian family as well and I don't believe they're going to burn in hell and they don't believe I'm going to burn in hell...

Why should I believe they will burn and suffer for eternity? They don't deserve that and it would not be just for that to happen to them just because of a belief.
Let me guess, your large portion of Christian families are Catholics?
 
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