Unveiled Faces

llleopard

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I also like the forums because they create more of a challenge in my study of scripture. I watched the first video again and it occurred to me illustration demonstrated a difference between taking action rather than just going to church on Sunday. This created a stress relief and helped people experience the teachings of Christ rather than just hear them.

I don't think we are being healed by sitting and listening to a message. This isn't changing us the way we should be transforming in our walk with Christ to just sit and listen to a message and it is what a lot of people are doing. However, there does seem to be many people realizing that this is creating problems and preventing growth for the church. We aren't meant to be an audience.

I think this is why I like the forums. I can take my time to research something and write about it, which helps me understand things better than if I was just listening to a message with no opportunity to interact; or, even at a Bible study where we don't have access to resources that will help further our study of scripture.

yes - i tend to look at Church on Sunday as 'half time' where you have a couple of orange slices, talk about the game plan, feel your loose teeth, and then you go back out to the real game of Rugby. We should get shirts that say 'The Church has Left the Building!!'
our home church has worked on changing their format a LOT this year - among other things, we will have a series on a 'theme' decided by the elders, then after a few weeks we have a 'reflection service'. the speakers of the last weeks sum up their message in 2 min, then we split into small groups or pairs (pref with people you're not related to) and discuss what we thought, did, plan to do, agree, disagree etc. It can be really good...especially if you're me, and play devils advocate to help get the discussion going. (INFJ yeah right!) People are getting better at it and loosening up after 6 months of this and the addition of coffee.
I like the forums too, but often I feel as if I can't put my thoughts on a deep subject together quickly enough to be relevant. But I go away and think and study about things, and learn a lot from everyone's points of view, so it is really worthwhile. Like the prophetic thread, or Jesus as Son of God etc - I'm thinking about a lot of the points in these still. i really appreciate all of your experience and hard out sharing. :)
 

Red Sky at Morning

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On a similar note, I just watched Dunkirk. It choked me up, especially when I thought about the Great Commission. With my spiritual eyes open it took on an extra dimension of significance and urgency.


If any of you have watched it you may understand what I mean here...
 

rainerann

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New thought about the video from the opening post. The scene where they are all getting together reminds me of this verse.

"By this all people will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."(John 13:35).

The people who left the church to continue to spend time with each other and help each other loved each other.

There is always room to grow in our love for each other. So simple. So powerful. The basis that creates change.

So often the world says we can't change. That who we were is who we will always be. This is why Christianity is so special to me because love promotes change and Jesus promotes loving people. Love allows you to become someone different and to start over.

The people having the picnic loved each other. That is what we need more of in the church because Christianity is a message of love.

"Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins." (1 Peter 4:8).
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I read this one and I thought it contained a lot of wisdom and reproof for me'

You are not immune to deception

"You’ve seen it said time and time again, as evidence for a multitude of theories, large and small:

“Jesus warned us against deception”.

And oh, did He ever.

Yet for some reason, in this day and age, Christian truthers across the world seem to fancy themselves immune to deception simply because they have identified some areas of deception that others operate under.

Listen. I’m not going to sit here and pretend that every truth I hold dear is entirely accurate, and that I’m an authority on what is deception and what isn’t. That’s kind of my point, really, because neither are you. I see deception all around me, just as much as you do, but that is the reason I remain vigilant against it.

See, because Jesus didn’t tell us, once you discover deception you’re good, He warned us to always be on the alert for it.

The entire spirit of not putting our faith in man, rejecting mainstream narratives, and accepting Biblical truth despite the humanist majority in our world today, is to constantly guard ourselves against deception.

Considering ourselves fully awake and free of influence by deceptive forces runs entirely contradictory to the quest for truth, and constantly seeking truth means realizing you might not know it all yet.

Guarding your thoughts and heart against deception means realizing it lies around every corner. And it is high time we admonish our truth-seeking brothers and sisters across the board to recognize that deception will always look like truth.

I’m going to be perfectly honest. These days, the people I believe are often most vulnerable to deception are those who believe they have fully exposed it.

You are not the bouncers of Truth, God is, and His Word is our ultimate authority, not the doctrine of the mainstream apostate church, but not the common narrative of modern internet truthers, either. Radically accepting the Word of God is what makes you a Christian, and if you can’t back up your narrative with anything but the Word, it’s simply not cold, hard truth, no matter how hard you’d like to believe it.

I could list specific theories or narratives that are examples of this kind of attitude and fallacy, but I’m not being specific for a reason.

You see, the thing is, that this kind of attitude is applicable to truth just as well as it is to deception. If you believe something because it sounds good to you without researching it, you will do that truth injustice by not being able to defend it well. If you doubt the validity of US elections, for example, because the Rothschilds, and yet have no data or source to back that up, you do harm to the claim that US elections are influenced by powerful globalist bankers. I might fully understand where you’re coming from, but someone determined to believe that US elections are entirely organic and valid will diffuse your argument in an instance. And if this is the way you accept truth, you’re just as vulnerable to unvetted deception that simply sounds good to you.

Even Jesus used the Scripture and basic reasoning skills to prove that He was the Son of God, and so we must follow His example by being intellectually consistent and using sound reasoning to back up our claims. However, a lie can still be supported by a strong argument, which makes sound reasoning skills all the more important as we test the claims of others as well, even, and sometimes especially, when they suit our narrative.

Ultimately, it all boils down to the state of our hearts and where we put our trust, and believing we are immune to deception is placing our trust in ourselves.

The Bible wouldn’t warn us against deception if simply believing the Word of God forever protected us against it.

So stop using these warnings against deception as proof that anything you label deception is just that. Rely on God’s reasoning and His infallible Word as your test, and humble yourself enough to realize you might end up being proven wrong about something you hold to be true one day. The Bible is our ultimate authority, but it is also the only authority we can fully trust. So trust it when it says,

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” Col 2:8 KJV

Trutherism is just another tradition of men, and your own narratives might not be as valid as the truth of the Bible. I’ve learned this the hard way myself over the years. But the Truth of God will only reveal itself more to you over time, the more you seek it. You’re not immune to deception, but Christ will always guard you from it, if you put your faith in Him. Not in yourself, not in others, but in Him alone."

Source
 

llleopard

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Apr 12, 2017
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408
I read this one and I thought it contained a lot of wisdom and reproof for me'

You are not immune to deception

"You’ve seen it said time and time again, as evidence for a multitude of theories, large and small:

“Jesus warned us against deception”.

And oh, did He ever.

Yet for some reason, in this day and age, Christian truthers across the world seem to fancy themselves immune to deception simply because they have identified some areas of deception that others operate under.

Listen. I’m not going to sit here and pretend that every truth I hold dear is entirely accurate, and that I’m an authority on what is deception and what isn’t. That’s kind of my point, really, because neither are you. I see deception all around me, just as much as you do, but that is the reason I remain vigilant against it.

See, because Jesus didn’t tell us, once you discover deception you’re good, He warned us to always be on the alert for it.

The entire spirit of not putting our faith in man, rejecting mainstream narratives, and accepting Biblical truth despite the humanist majority in our world today, is to constantly guard ourselves against deception.

Considering ourselves fully awake and free of influence by deceptive forces runs entirely contradictory to the quest for truth, and constantly seeking truth means realizing you might not know it all yet.

Guarding your thoughts and heart against deception means realizing it lies around every corner. And it is high time we admonish our truth-seeking brothers and sisters across the board to recognize that deception will always look like truth.

I’m going to be perfectly honest. These days, the people I believe are often most vulnerable to deception are those who believe they have fully exposed it.

You are not the bouncers of Truth, God is, and His Word is our ultimate authority, not the doctrine of the mainstream apostate church, but not the common narrative of modern internet truthers, either. Radically accepting the Word of God is what makes you a Christian, and if you can’t back up your narrative with anything but the Word, it’s simply not cold, hard truth, no matter how hard you’d like to believe it.

I could list specific theories or narratives that are examples of this kind of attitude and fallacy, but I’m not being specific for a reason.

You see, the thing is, that this kind of attitude is applicable to truth just as well as it is to deception. If you believe something because it sounds good to you without researching it, you will do that truth injustice by not being able to defend it well. If you doubt the validity of US elections, for example, because the Rothschilds, and yet have no data or source to back that up, you do harm to the claim that US elections are influenced by powerful globalist bankers. I might fully understand where you’re coming from, but someone determined to believe that US elections are entirely organic and valid will diffuse your argument in an instance. And if this is the way you accept truth, you’re just as vulnerable to unvetted deception that simply sounds good to you.

Even Jesus used the Scripture and basic reasoning skills to prove that He was the Son of God, and so we must follow His example by being intellectually consistent and using sound reasoning to back up our claims. However, a lie can still be supported by a strong argument, which makes sound reasoning skills all the more important as we test the claims of others as well, even, and sometimes especially, when they suit our narrative.

Ultimately, it all boils down to the state of our hearts and where we put our trust, and believing we are immune to deception is placing our trust in ourselves.

The Bible wouldn’t warn us against deception if simply believing the Word of God forever protected us against it.

So stop using these warnings against deception as proof that anything you label deception is just that. Rely on God’s reasoning and His infallible Word as your test, and humble yourself enough to realize you might end up being proven wrong about something you hold to be true one day. The Bible is our ultimate authority, but it is also the only authority we can fully trust. So trust it when it says,

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” Col 2:8 KJV

Trutherism is just another tradition of men, and your own narratives might not be as valid as the truth of the Bible. I’ve learned this the hard way myself over the years. But the Truth of God will only reveal itself more to you over time, the more you seek it. You’re not immune to deception, but Christ will always guard you from it, if you put your faith in Him. Not in yourself, not in others, but in Him alone."

Source
Oh that's nasty. What a good reminder not to get smug and slack. :)
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I was just thinking to myself how the entertainment industry wraps lies in an appealing package. I don't think this is by accident! Doubtful actions done by a character we care about have always been somehow appealing. I think this is because people are often far more directed emotionally rather than intellectually. This is why heroism is usually more powerful than 'morality' in people's minds.

I then I remembered some lines from Ephesians 4...

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Speaking the truth in love has to be the way. If speaking lies in a 'loving' way is very persuasive, how much more powerful will our efforts be when we understand God's heart of love for each person, and the price that was paid for them? Who you are becomes just as vital as what you say.
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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I know I post up a lot of videos, but I thought this one had a powerful message to those who (as I did for a time) want "the best of both" when it comes to the Church and the world...

 

Red Sky at Morning

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This hit me very powerfully this morning. There is something very tantalising about exposing evil. There is also a danger....

TVC Mario had been very active in this to the degree that he found he had lost his compass in the process and realised he had become more aware of the darkness than the light (my paraphrase)

 

JoChris

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The past two weeks I have been sick from a chest cough and it has reminded me how much I take my generally good health for granted. In a similar way I tend to take my walk with God the same way, until bad things happen and then I realise how far I have wandered/ fallen into deception.

I used to berate myself when my eyes were opened to how I was failing Jesus and did not want to return out of shame and self-recrimination. These days I am learning to trust God, that when the bible says "if we confess our sins...." https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+1:9&version=KJV....

I am choosing to trust the Word of God, not my feelings or impressions. I have been wrong many times, but God NEVER has.
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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I stumbled upon an amusing quote from C.S Lewis this evening...

"I didn’t go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.” -C.S. Lewis-
 

Maes17

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The past two weeks I have been sick from a chest cough and it has reminded me how much I take my generally good health for granted. In a similar way I tend to take my walk with God the same way, until bad things happen and then I realise how far I have wandered/ fallen into deception.

I used to berate myself when my eyes were opened to how I was failing Jesus and did not want to return out of shame and self-recrimination. These days I am learning to trust God, that when the bible says "if we confess our sins...." https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+1:9&version=KJV....

I am choosing to trust the Word of God, not my feelings or impressions. I have been wrong many times, but God NEVER has.
Good advice to apply to life in general.
 

JoChris

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One part of living a Christian life in a non believing family is that I am aware of how different I am from them all, even from those whom I live thousands of kms away. Online interaction makes the distance feel very small.

I have a tendency towards hypervigilance and self-consciousness at the best of times. From recent Facebook posts I felt the difference very intensely. They see nothing wrong in what the bible clearly condemns as sin. They praise it in fact.

My reflex response is the fight OR flight response. I always want to flee conflict. I am reading a Christian book that made me think that Christians have another option - FAITH.

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
That convicted me - am I going to keep fighting/ fleeing the fleshly way or am I going to depend on God, the Holy Spirit for insight and wisdom and inner strength?
 

llleopard

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One part of living a Christian life in a non believing family is that I am aware of how different I am from them all, even from those whom I live thousands of kms away. Online interaction makes the distance feel very small.

I have a tendency towards hypervigilance and self-consciousness at the best of times. From recent Facebook posts I felt the difference very intensely. They see nothing wrong in what the bible clearly condemns as sin. They praise it in fact.

My reflex response is the fight OR flight response. I always want to flee conflict. I am reading a Christian book that made me think that Christians have another option - FAITH.

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
That convicted me - am I going to keep fighting/ fleeing the fleshly way or am I going to depend on God, the Holy Spirit for insight and wisdom and inner strength?
Rev 2 v 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations.

There are special rewards for those who don't just walk the Faith, or run the Faith, but fight the fight and Overcome. Hang in there for ever. xxx
 

JoChris

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Part of my faith walk is learning to deal with differences in my church family as well as my normal family. One challenge I felt today especially. It is hard to get motivated to turn up to Sunday bible study when I have repeatedly been bored or frustrated by the presenter talking with the assumption that all present have Christian families, spouses and so on.

However today was so bad my Grandmother friend and I even said to the pastor's wife, me direct quote " ... if it wasn't for her I wouldn't turn up for the bible study any more". Poor pastor's wife. She looked shocked and saddened and I felt bad for her and her husband. They can only do so much in a small church. I know the men are all fulltime workers (and therefore unlikely to have time for extensive study preparation), so why won't they look for decent study material online instead? No reasonable Christian adult would hold it against them! ARRGGGHHH!!!!!

I am battling with my flesh every Sunday as a result. Part of me is berating myself for being intellectually snobby (God please help me improve in that area), the other part is reminding me to look at these people's lives and concentrate on how their conduct can educate me instead. This is an area I will need to start to pray about from now on because it should not continue on like this any more.
 

llleopard

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Part of my faith walk is learning to deal with differences in my church family as well as my normal family. One challenge I felt today especially. It is hard to get motivated to turn up to Sunday bible study when I have repeatedly been bored or frustrated by the presenter talking with the assumption that all present have Christian families, spouses and so on.

However today was so bad my Grandmother friend and I even said to the pastor's wife, me direct quote " ... if it wasn't for her I wouldn't turn up for the bible study any more". Poor pastor's wife. She looked shocked and saddened and I felt bad for her and her husband. They can only do so much in a small church. I know the men are all fulltime workers (and therefore unlikely to have time for extensive study preparation), so why won't they look for decent study material online instead? No reasonable Christian adult would hold it against them! ARRGGGHHH!!!!!

I am battling with my flesh every Sunday as a result. Part of me is berating myself for being intellectually snobby (God please help me improve in that area), the other part is reminding me to look at these people's lives and concentrate on how their conduct can educate me instead. This is an area I will need to start to pray about from now on because it should not continue on like this any more.
It's not snobbery though! It sounds more like frustration and desperation!
We all need to be in fellowship, but it can feel worse than useless if there's not the right food, and it must be maddening that people don't listen to you and remember your circumstances - like they don't even bother to care. Just rude in everyday life, but really disappointing in Christians. I'm assuming this isn't 'Sunday morning church service,' but more a house group things? Can you and Grandmother make a list of ideas to try - obviously they all know you aren't happy (now :) lol) so could you use this as an opportunity to put out some suggestions - ie diff people to bring a study each week for 2 months. someone (you?) do a study series for 2-3 weeks? scrap Bible part one day a month and just do social things so people learn to relate better? some suggestions of good websites to draw ideas from? ideas for topics that could be interesting? -how about some kind of fun 'get to know people' session so that no-one has an excuse to not understand each other's circumstances? suggest that they do a survey and get everyone's ideas on what might make a good study meeting? Heck. I don't know. Certainly continue to pray, because the Holy Spirit does hear you, and will change hearts. To encourage - we had a major blow up with our eldership about their use of the Message paraphrase as if it were the Bible. Nearly got to the point of leaving, but we hung in, prayed and were very careful about our attitudes and words......6 months later, the pastor has just done a 3 week series on the importance of God's Word. Blew us away totally - complete change in attitude from him!!!
 

JoChris

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It's not snobbery though! It sounds more like frustration and desperation!
We all need to be in fellowship, but it can feel worse than useless if there's not the right food, and it must be maddening that people don't listen to you and remember your circumstances - like they don't even bother to care. Just rude in everyday life, but really disappointing in Christians. I'm assuming this isn't 'Sunday morning church service,' but more a house group things? Can you and Grandmother make a list of ideas to try - obviously they all know you aren't happy (now :) lol) so could you use this as an opportunity to put out some suggestions - ie diff people to bring a study each week for 2 months. someone (you?) do a study series for 2-3 weeks? scrap Bible part one day a month and just do social things so people learn to relate better? some suggestions of good websites to draw ideas from? ideas for topics that could be interesting? -how about some kind of fun 'get to know people' session so that no-one has an excuse to not understand each other's circumstances? suggest that they do a survey and get everyone's ideas on what might make a good study meeting? Heck. I don't know. Certainly continue to pray, because the Holy Spirit does hear you, and will change hearts. To encourage - we had a major blow up with our eldership about their use of the Message paraphrase as if it were the Bible. Nearly got to the point of leaving, but we hung in, prayed and were very careful about our attitudes and words......6 months later, the pastor has just done a 3 week series on the importance of God's Word. Blew us away totally - complete change in attitude from him!!!
Thankyou for saying it's not snobbery. I am afraid that they might think I am. I have a very high opinion of their biblical knowledge and spiritual understanding. Therefore I don't understand how they can give such shallow "studies" when I know they personally know much more than a few keywords from a biblical commentary.

It's part of the Sunday service, but the informal part. People can't attend bible studies easily here (some families drive a long way) so they put it all together in one timeslot. House groups- I wish. Not going to happen for multiple reasons.
They already mix who presents every week. Today's guy was the last straw. He's done it a quite a few times, he's a kindly man but for any grownup who has been a Christian for more than a few years his presentations are excruciating.
My grandmother friend was visibly annoyed and muttered to me she had read the KJV bible from the beginning and she doesn't need the "thees and thous" explained. Yes it was that basic. What "thee and thou" versus "you and ye", hath/ endeth etc meant for 45 minutes. I didn't mind the first 10 minutes because I have only read it approx. 5 years (since I attended this church) but he took 40 minutes for that only. o_O

I don't think there is any easy answer. There are several men who are quite good but they are shiftworkers. They can't be expected to carry the load. Another one is also OK on topics that interest him but he has a young family and possibly another on the way?

That is great news about the bible in your church. I hope they are using the KJV now? :)
 

Red Sky at Morning

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My parents have had the same issue with "the Message" - as it is such a loose paraphrase, much of the meaning of the detail is lost, and it's only value (and a debatable one at that) might be in gaining a quick overview...

Who am I kidding - I really dislike it, not only for its use of "as above, so below" in the Lord's prayer, but for how it goes further with the scissors to key passages.

What really grinds my gears is when the loose translation is studied as though the detail has anything but the loosest connection to the original meaning.

I feel your issues with fellowships Jo, it is very hard to find somewhere where you can feel like you properly fit in... Perhaps that is why I'm on here in the first place ;-)
 

JoChris

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My parents have had the same issue with "the Message" - as it is such a loose paraphrase, much of the meaning of the detail is lost, and it's only value (and a debatable one at that) might be in gaining a quick overview...

Who am I kidding - I really dislike it, not only for its use of "as above, so below" in the Lord's prayer, but for how it goes further with the scissors to key passages.

What really grinds my gears is when the loose translation is studied as though the detail has anything but the loosest connection to the original meaning.

I feel your issues with fellowships Jo, it is very hard to find somewhere where you can feel like you properly fit in... Perhaps that is why I'm on here in the first place ;-)
If I was able to, I would provide fellowship for Christians who are in the Twilight Zone - don't fit the mould. All misfits and think-outside-the box people. Only conditions for entry - must be a bible-believing Christian and show signs of living out those beliefs. No unrepentant sinners. Struggling sinners welcome.

My women's bible study I attended in 2007 was a bit like that. We discovered we all either had unbelieving husbands (like me) or were divorced/ separating. Even in people-friendly Charismatic churches women like us were outsiders. (Failures are not good marketing material.) We got very close and part of me still misses them.
 
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