Two sides to every story - Gay Conversion Therapy

Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Messages
1,317
Likes
1,973
#81
Um, it's a simple personal choice. Shocking that this completely escapes you. :rolleyes: LOL It's purely personal choice, so you cannot speak for everyone just because you would happen to choose differently. The reason you won't understand is probably because you seem to want to completely avoid the personal responsibility of choosing one way or the other.
I think you misunderstood my point...I completely understand why it is important to be empathetic, and I believe we must be as empathetic with one another as possible.

However, The reason that I believe this is because of God’s grace. Through Jesus Christ, He showed me mercy when I deserved Judgment.

When my sins should have brought upon me swift destruction & certain death, He paid the price to purchase for me eternal life, even though I could never pay Him back or even offer anything in return.

It is because of HIM that I can forgive those who wrong me or pray for those who use me.

I cannot take the credit for having empathy, because it would only be in vain. Empathy is shown to others because Christ first showed it to me.

So I ask again: if you are not a believer, WHERE does unselfishness & empathy originate?
 





Joined
Apr 12, 2017
Messages
907
Likes
1,401
#82
I think you misunderstood my point...I completely understand why it is important to be empathetic, and I believe we must be as empathetic with one another as possible.

However, The reason that I believe this is because of God’s grace. Through Jesus Christ, He showed me mercy when I deserved Judgment.

When my sins should have brought upon me swift destruction & certain death, He paid the price to purchase for me eternal life, even though I could never pay Him back or even offer anything in return.

It is because of HIM that I can forgive those who wrong me or pray for those who use me.

I cannot take the credit for having empathy, because it would only be in vain. Empathy is shown to others because Christ first showed it to me.

So I ask again: if you are not a believer, WHERE does unselfishness & empathy originate?
That's nice and I'm happy that you have chosen to follow this example, but you are still describing a personal choice. Are you saying that if you had never heard of Jesus, you would not choose to show empathy at all?
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
7,183
Likes
10,928
#83
That's nice and I'm happy that you have chosen to follow this example, but you are still describing a personal choice. Are you saying that if you had never heard of Jesus, you would not choose to show empathy at all?
I like this quote...

The human mind has no more power of inventing a new value than of imagining a new primary colour, or, indeed, of creating a new sun and a new sky for it to move in.​

C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man
 





Joined
Apr 12, 2017
Messages
907
Likes
1,401
#84
I like this quote...

The human mind has no more power of inventing a new value than of imagining a new primary colour, or, indeed, of creating a new sun and a new sky for it to move in.​

C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man
I don't understand the relevance since I haven't even mentioned the idea of inventing empathy or "taking credit" as Claire put it. This is not commentary on theism, I'm merely saying that empathy is a choice. The perceived implications of this are interesting to witness, but they are not MY implications. others have made them up in their own minds and assumed they are mine.

Also, the question I just asked Claire is a straight-up yes or no question. Let's see if anyone is actually willing to answer it. I won't be holding my breath.
 





Joined
Apr 12, 2017
Messages
907
Likes
1,401
#85
Me: "Empathy is a personal choice."

Others: "No! Can't you see that we all have permission slips? You can't possibly choose empathy without one!"

Me: "That's cool. I also had a permission slip but then I realized that I was only giving permission to myself, which is absolutely redundant, so the slip of paper was never needed in the first place!"

Others: "but we will still need to see your permission slip"

Me: "..."

:)
 





Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Messages
1,317
Likes
1,973
#86
That's nice and I'm happy that you have chosen to follow this example, but you are still describing a personal choice. Are you saying that if you had never heard of Jesus, you would not choose to show empathy at all?
What I’m saying is that any & all goodness originates from God, whether we are aware of it or not.

He is the source of all that is good, and righteous and just.
 





Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
3,493
Likes
6,094
#88
I get burned by empathy constantly, but I still make the choice. I really don't know why though. It's been postulated that empathy is a form of guilt, but I completely disagree. I think that guilt is guilt, and empathy is empathy. People just get confused due to logical fallacies. The main issue here is the "matching moods" effect.

It is not good to match the moods of others. This simple idea that is apparently lost on people. Sharing ideas via introjection is one thing, but what can one learn off matching moods? That's a rhetorical question BTW. One can't learn shit off matching moods, one will probably only find trouble. So the true empath walks a different path than what everyone thinks empathy is.

The true empath doesn't use a paint roller, or lawnmower to dispense empathy. That's a logical fallacy. The tool of the true empath can only be a magnifying glass. You know? I care so much that I'm going to magnifying the shit out of your life. And hopefully I don't burn myself. Honestly though I think not caring feels a lot worse than sometimes caring about the wrong things.
 





Joined
Apr 12, 2017
Messages
907
Likes
1,401
#89
What I’m saying is that any & all goodness originates from God, whether we are aware of it or not.

He is the source of all that is good, and righteous and just.
This is changing the subject, though. I have not mentioned this subject whatsoever. Please read my words at face value and try not to add your own meaning to them.
 





Joined
Apr 12, 2017
Messages
907
Likes
1,401
#92
Truth bomb:

The key to real empathy is best understood as the choice to perceive others as an extension of the self, instead of the ego-based perception of others as something separate from yourself.

Otherwise there is simply no empathy present.

Of course we do not have the perfect wisdom to always know the most beneficial course of action, so all we can do is try our best to relieve each other's burdens without being selfishly concerned with what we might gain in return.
 





Joined
Apr 12, 2017
Messages
907
Likes
1,401
#96
Truth bomb:

The key to real empathy is best understood as the choice to perceive others as an extension of the self, instead of the ego-based perception of others as something separate from yourself.

Otherwise there is simply no empathy present.

Of course we do not have the perfect wisdom to always know the most beneficial course of action, so all we can do is try our best to relieve each other's burdens without being selfishly concerned with what we might gain in return.
"Hey Faker, that's not true. Why is it that many people can have empathy without seeing things this way?"

Great question! These are the fence-sitters I mentioned. The choice to see others as an extension of the self does not necessarily have to be a conscious decision. Whenever real empathy is experienced, this decicion is still present either way, even if it happens to be buried in the subconscious and only surfaces as needed by the ego.

The idea is to eliminate this inner struggle by getting off the fence and facing the decision consciously instead of staying uninvolved.
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
7,183
Likes
10,928
#97
@Faker He-Man

"I'm merely saying that empathy is a choice."

I know where you are coming from here, but the way I see it is that empathy in an innate awareness activated by a choice to acknowledge it and act on it. I might have empathy for someone I owe money to, but might choose to act out of self interest and harden my heart against them, particularly if people I like better than them and for whom I feel greater empathy (my family) are benefitted by my underhand dealings.

My point is just that if moral standards flow out from us rather than transcend our own, we really are back in the Book of Judges where each man "did what was right in his own eyes". Certainly, people were moral back then just as many people are now. Like now though, they had lost a clear sense of why they should adopt standards of upright conduct.
 





Last edited:
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
3,818
Likes
4,671
#98
"Hey Faker, that's not true. Why is it that many people can have empathy without seeing things this way?"

Great question! These are the fence-sitters I mentioned. The choice to see others as an extension of the self does not necessarily have to be a conscious decision. Whenever real empathy is experienced, this decicion is still present either way, even if it happens to be buried in the subconscious and only surfaces as needed by the ego.

The idea is to eliminate this inner struggle by getting off the fence and facing the decision consciously instead of staying uninvolved.
And what is your motivation for 'making that choice'.. ?
 





Joined
Apr 12, 2017
Messages
907
Likes
1,401
#99
@Faker He-Man

"I'm merely saying that empathy is a choice."

I know where you are coming from here, but the way I see it is that empathy in an innate awareness activated by a choice to acknowledge it and act on it.
Have I claimed otherwise?

I might have empathy for someone I owe money to, but might choose to act out of self interest and harden my heart against them, particularly if people I like better than them and for whom I feel greater empathy (my family) are benefitted by my underhand dealings.
This falls under the category of selfishness and manipulation of others. It is not actual empathy unless it is universally applied. (I do realize that not every situation is so idealistic, and that some people are going to be dangerous, and while I have no interest in revenge or retaliation, I do acknowledge that there are actions that must be taken to keep them from hurting more people.)

My point is just that if moral standards flow out from us rather than transcend our own, we really are back in the Book of Judges where each man "did what was right in his own eyes". Certainly, people were moral back then as many people are now. Just like now though, they had lost a clear sense of why they should adopt standards of upright conduct.
Simple: they should make use of the definitions they have formed around their life's experiences in order to further analyze and solidify their own desires, which automatically strengthens the individual will, thereby either creating a further bias toward love and acceptance, or a further bias toward separation and control. Selfishness vs selflessness.
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
7,183
Likes
10,928
Have I claimed otherwise?


This falls under the category of selfishness and manipulation of others. It is not actual empathy unless it is universally applied. (I do realize that not every situation is so idealistic, and that some people are going to be dangerous, and while I have no interest in revenge or retaliation, I do acknowledge that there are actions that must be taken to keep them from hurting more people.)


Simple: they should make use of the definitions they have formed around their life's experiences in order to further analyze and solidify their own desires, which automatically strengthens the individual will, thereby either creating a further bias toward love and acceptance, or a further bias toward separation and control. Selfishness vs selflessness.
Would you describe yourself as a moral optimist when it comes to human nature? What do you think the basic raw tendancy of humanity is?

The reason for my question is that Communism is built on the basic assumption that man naturally good, "unfallen" and would wish to work towards the greater good of society.