Two sides to every story - Gay Conversion Therapy

Joined
Apr 12, 2017
Messages
1,277
Likes
1,728
#41
Last I checked, parents ARE authoritarian figures.

That is part of the massive responsibility of being a parent—-being the authority figure to whom your child must answer to.

If your child doesn’t respect your authority, he will never respect authority figures when he’s older and that can potentially ruin his life as an adult, since we continue to answer to authority throughout our lives (police, elders, bosses, etc), and finally, and most importantly, we answer to the ultimate authority....God.

Know this: just because you do not believe in God, that will not exempt you from His judgment. You may find God/religion a humorous mockery now & foolishly teach your child the same, but there WILL come a day when you will grieve to your soul that you did not heed our warnings but then it will be too late.

View attachment 12227


View attachment 12228
You only need authority because you're terrified of what you would do without it, so you project YOUR choices into others assuming they would choose the same actions.

Your accusation that I would teach my child to laugh at religion is completely ridiculous and unsurprisingly you have totally missed the point I was making. My son would probably find humor in religion simply because he finds humor in just about EVERYTHING except things that are hurtful to others. His sillyness and sense of humor brightens my whole life and I would never change a thing about it!
 





Last edited:
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
8,278
Likes
12,263
#42
You only need authority because you're terrified of what you would do without it, so you project YOUR choices into others assuming they would choose the same actions.

Your accusation that I would teach my child to laugh at religion is completely ridiculous and unsurprisingly you have totally missed the point I was making. My son would probably find humor in religion simply because he finds humor in just about EVERYTHING except things that are hurtful to others. His sillyness and sense of humor brightens my whole life and I would never change a thing about it!
I think telling other people how they ought to be raining their kids is always an invitation for a punch in the face!

The point I was attempting to make was not that you might be a bad, loose parent, but rather that you might be an amazing parent who instills some excellent values in your child(ren?).

As you do, and as you raise and guide them you probably appeal to standards of morality, truth and value that are rooted in reasons we agree on, but the "why" cannot easily be answered without appeal to an overarching moral mind behind the universe.

I know about Satre and Camus etc - they don't provide anything like a "why" worth having.
 





Joined
Apr 12, 2017
Messages
1,277
Likes
1,728
#43
I think telling other people how they ought to be raining their kids is always an invitation for a punch in the face!

The point I was attempting to make was not that you might be a bad, loose parent, but rather that you might be an amazing parent who instills some excellent values in your child(ren?).

As you do, and as you raise and guide them you probably appeal to standards of morality, truth and value that are rooted in reasons we agree on, but the "why" cannot easily be answered without appeal to an overarching moral mind behind the universe.

I know about Satre and Camus etc - they don't provide anything like a "why" worth having.
Nonsense. If you want to punch someone over words then it's on you. You choose your own actions, and also choose whether or not to take commentary or even criticism as a personal insult.

I appeal to ethics rooted in empathy, not some arbitrary cultural man-made idea of "morality".
 





Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
2,312
Likes
3,695
#44
I don't think you guys understand what conversion therapy is. "Gay conversion therapy" isn't even therapy. Electrocuting a gay person while showing them a picture of someone from their same sex isn't therapeutic and it won't get rid of their homosexuality. Traumatizing people should not be labeled as therapy. No one's sexuality can be "converted" in the first place. The idea that you can "convert" gay people is telling them that there is something wrong with themselves and that they cannot be comfortable with who they are. Telling someone that they are literally diseased is not going to improve their mental health. Psychological abuse is not therapy. Teaching people to hate themselves isn't going to help them, it's going to lead to depression... in fact, conversion therapy has been studied and that is exactly what it has been shown to lead to. Shaming an inherent part of a person's identity and personality is certainly going to cause negative psychological effects... especially when this is being done to vulnerable young teens and children. When gay people are forced to go through these kinds of processes, they do not come out in a good mental state and they definitely don't become straight. They end up unable to live with and accept themselves which causes them to have a lack of care for themselves and a very low sense of self worth, this easily leads to depression and suicide. Conversion therapy has been shown to be harmful and it hasn't done any good for anyone, it just makes things worse... it literally creates mental illness (which is the exact opposite of what real therapy is supposed to do). Torture and abuse isn't therapy.
Not trying to single out your post but trying to keep up and thought you would reply with more than emotion. Gender is fluid but sexuality is not?
 





Joined
Jun 17, 2017
Messages
3,540
Likes
5,186
#45
I don't think you guys understand what conversion therapy is. "Gay conversion therapy" isn't even therapy. Electrocuting a gay person while showing them a picture of someone from their same sex isn't therapeutic and it won't get rid of their homosexuality. Traumatizing people should not be labeled as therapy. No one's sexuality can be "converted" in the first place. The idea that you can "convert" gay people is telling them that there is something wrong with themselves and that they cannot be comfortable with who they are. Telling someone that they are literally diseased is not going to improve their mental health. Psychological abuse is not therapy. Teaching people to hate themselves isn't going to help them, it's going to lead to depression... in fact, conversion therapy has been studied and that is exactly what it has been shown to lead to. Shaming an inherent part of a person's identity and personality is certainly going to cause negative psychological effects... especially when this is being done to vulnerable young teens and children. When gay people are forced to go through these kinds of processes, they do not come out in a good mental state and they definitely don't become straight. They end up unable to live with and accept themselves which causes them to have a lack of care for themselves and a very low sense of self worth, this easily leads to depression and suicide. Conversion therapy has been shown to be harmful and it hasn't done any good for anyone, it just makes things worse... it literally creates mental illness (which is the exact opposite of what real therapy is supposed to do). Torture and abuse isn't therapy.


how about "medical fat shaming", when a doctor tells an obese person that they need to lose weight, leading to "depression"? is that too stressful for people? no one wants to hear about it (people simply want their desires to instantly appear before them), but any form of therapy will require willpower and work.

https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=9541
 





Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
2,312
Likes
3,695
#46
how about "medical fat shaming", when a doctor tells an obese person that they need to lose weight, leading to "depression"? is that too stressful for people? no one wants to hear about it (people simply want their desires to instantly appear before them), but any form of therapy will require willpower and work.

https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=9541
Fat Shaming is only to be allowed by liberal media.
 





mecca

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
7,128
Likes
12,145
#47
Not trying to single out your post but trying to keep up and thought you would reply with more than emotion.
I don't know what you mean... conversion therapy has been scientifically studied and it has never been proven to turn people straight. It has been proven to put lgbt people into bad mental states... it causes anxiety, depression, and suicidal thoughts. It can also lead to substance abuse. It's an unregulated pseudoscientific practice and people are paid to just do whatever they want to these vulnerable gay people. What they do in conversion therapy, is try to associate homosexual feelings with something unpleasant, so one thing they do is show them a homoerotic, sexual picture and then electrocute them. But this is simply abuse, and it doesn't even work to get rid of someone's homosexuality, there is no scientific basis to these "treatments". Forcing that association in someone's mind is not even truly changing their sexuality. Things like electrocution, shaming, and beratement aren't therapeutic and they're not going to create positive effects. I don't think these are healthy things for anyone, especially minors to go through. Fostering self hatred is really not the correct way to help someone. Therapy is supposed to improve people's mental state, not deteriorate their mental health. If someone is trying to help a gay person, dehumanizing them and trying to force them to be something they aren't will not do it. If anything, at least minors should not be forced to undergo conversion therapy against their will, adults could have the ability to decide to go or not as long as they are properly informed that it is unreliable and pseudoscientific. But if someone needs therapy, they should go to a real therapist instead of a gay conversion camp.
Gender is fluid but sexuality is not?
Well they're two different things... and for most people, neither one is fluid. I don't see how sexuality can be fluid, you're never gay one day and straight the next... you are either attracted to men, women, neither, or both. Bisexual people are attracted to both, but that's not really fluidity because they aren't fluctuating between bisexuality and heterosexuality or homosexuality. Bisexuality itself is a fixed sexual attraction. People's attraction doesn't really change, they can choose to stop pursuing certain relationships but no one can really get rid of the fact that they like men or like women.

Gender identities are also usually fixed for the majority of people... some people could be fluid in their gender expression which means that they might dress in a more "masculine" way one day and in a more "feminine" way the next day... but their actual gender identity could still remain fixed as a woman or as non-binary for example. Gender fluidity is typically referring to the way that people express themselves through their mannerisms and clothing. It could also be used to describe people who's identities don't fit in completely with being a man or a woman, they don't feel like they fit in the binary and they are kind of floating between masculine and feminine and they might drift between those. But it has no correlation to sexuality/sexual identity.
 





Last edited:

mecca

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
7,128
Likes
12,145
#48
how about "medical fat shaming", when a doctor tells an obese person that they need to lose weight, leading to "depression"? is that too stressful for people? no one wants to hear about it (people simply want their desires to instantly appear before them), but any form of therapy will require willpower and work.
First of all, being fat and being homosexual aren't the same thing so I don't know why you're bringing it up. Being overweight/obese is a health issue and a doctor should be respectfully recommending ways to resolve that issue so that the patient can be in good physical shape. Doctors do not need to disrespect or shame their patients in order to advise them and help them with their conditions. A doctor should create a positive environment where the patient feels safe, comfortable, and able to talk about their health issues and they feel that they can trust their doctor's advice. Also the professor in that article isn't saying what you claimed she's saying... according that article, the professor said this:
"doctors repeatedly advise weight loss for fat patients while recommending CAT scans, blood work, or physical therapy for other, average weight patients”
“recommending different treatments for patients with the same condition based on their weight is unethical and a form of malpractice"
"doctors could jump to conclusions that a patient’s condition is obesity-related, and therefore fail to run appropriate tests, which results in misdiagnosis”
So what she is saying is that a skinny person and an overweight person both come in about the same condition but the doctor tells the fat person to lose weight and tells the skinny person to get a CAT scan and blood work... this is harmful to the overweight person because they are being misdiagnosed and the cause of their conditions can be overlooked because they are not undergoing the correct tests. This is just one professor's hypothesis for why fat people are more likely to have undiagnosed health conditions and it hasn't actually been tested if this is the cause or if this is really a widespread problem/practice.

If this is actually going on then it does sound like malpractice because not all health conditions are caused by obesity. The overweight person should also be getting blood work or a CAT scan because those things are necessary to determine what the condition is, the cause of the condition, and how to fix it. I do think that treatment should be tailored to each patient's needs but fat people shouldn't automatically be written off from getting certain tests or other treatments and only told to lose weight because that is not helpful, losing weight won't cure every disease. They should be losing weight along with different treatments depending on their condition. If a doctor sees that their patient is obese and assumes that's the cause of whatever health issue the patient came in with and they suggest weight loss instead of doing testing, that is quite dangerous... hopefully most doctors are not doing this.

But anyway this is way off topic.
 





Last edited:
Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Messages
1,320
Likes
2,036
#49
@polymoog @Claire Rousseau

Yes, the "traditional" child-rearing approach has worked out so well for society! Broken, weak-willed adults are easier to manipulate so I guess it works out very well for the people who own the world. Maybe there is something to learn from the past, and MAYBE you are so conditioned that you don't see that what you're arguing is a very limited perspective.

Here is what you're missing, and will most likely continue to be disregarded no matter how obvious it becomes: Obedience only works well for children whose wills can be successfully broken, while the strong-willed kids will always just do whatever they want as soon as the parents aren't watching. On the other hand, my son can be trusted to not misbehave whether anyone is watching or not. He chooses all on his own to make the right actions because it is the example that he follows, and he genuinely wants to be considerate and put others ahead of himself. He's the kid at the birthday party who will just give his cupcake to a friend if there aren't enough for everyone.

He chooses to follow our household structure not because he is told to, but because he has been taught to understand the benefits, which allows him to trust that mom & dad are looking out for the best and will always set a good example to follow.
Is your household structured with you & your wife under the same roof, providing love, discipline & stability for the child?
 





mecca

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
7,128
Likes
12,145
#50
He chooses to follow our household structure not because he is told to, but because he has been taught to understand the benefits, which allows him to trust that mom & dad are looking out for the best and will always set a good example to follow.
That is the best reason to do things. People should do things because they are the right thing and they are beneficial, not because someone else told them to do it. It's great to teach children the actual reasons behind the actions you want them to take because you won't have to force them to do things, they will be able to understand you and listen to you.
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
8,278
Likes
12,263
#51
Nonsense. If you want to punch someone over words then it's on you. You choose your own actions, and also choose whether or not to take commentary or even criticism as a personal insult.

I appeal to ethics rooted in empathy, not some arbitrary cultural man-made idea of "morality".
Great - at least I understand your position.

"man-made idea of "morality""

IF, THEN, ELSE:-

The big IF then - If the Ten Commandments were actually Moses trying to rein in a bunch of wandering tribes with some rules and if the subsequent supposed self-revelation of "God" were more of the same THEN ideas based on such primal morality would be subject to review and doubtless be outmoded, ELSE you misjudge the Bible and fail to attribute the source of the morality and its implications.

"Telling us to obey instinct is like telling us to obey 'people.' People say different things: so do instincts. Our instincts are at war. If it is held that the instinct for preserving the species should always be obeyed at the expense of other instincts, whence do we derive this rule of precedence? To listen to that instinct speaking in its own case and deciding in its own favour would be rather simple minded. Each instinct, if you listen to it, will claim to be gratified at the expense of all the rest. By the very act of listening to one rather than to others we have already prejudged the case. If we did not bring to the examination of our instincts a knowledge of their comparative dignity we could never learn it from them. And that knowledge cannot itself be instinctive: the judge cannot be one of the parties judged: or, if he is, the decision is worthless and there is no ground for placing preservation of the species above self-preservation or sexual appetite."
~ C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man
 





Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Messages
1,320
Likes
2,036
#52
I don't know what you mean... conversion therapy has been scientifically studied and it has never been proven to turn people straight. It has been proven to put lgbt people into bad mental states... it causes anxiety, depression, and suicidal thoughts. It can also lead to substance abuse. It's an unregulated pseudoscientific practice and people are paid to just do whatever they want to these vulnerable gay people. What they do in conversion therapy, is try to associate homosexual feelings with something unpleasant, so one thing they might do is show them a homoerotic, sexual picture and then electrocute them. But this is simply abuse, and it doesn't even work to get rid of someone's homosexuality, there is no scientific basis to these "treatments". Forcing that association in someone's mind is not even truly changing their sexuality. Things like electrocution, shaming, and beratement aren't therapeutic and they're not going to create positive effects. I don't think these are healthy things for anyone, especially minors to go through. Fostering self hatred is really not the correct way to help someone. Therapy is supposed to improve people's mental state, not deteriorate their mental health. If someone is trying to help a gay person, dehumanizing them and trying to force them to be something they aren't will not do it. If anything, at least minors should not be forced to undergo conversion therapy against their will, adults could have the ability to decide to go or not as long as they are properly informed that it is unreliable and pseudoscientific. But if someone needs therapy, they should go to a real therapist instead of a gay conversion camp.

Well they're two different things... and for most people, neither one is fluid. I don't see how sexuality can be fluid, you're never gay one day and straight the next... you are either attracted to men, women, neither, or both. Bisexual people are attracted to both, but that's not really fluidity because they aren't fluctuating between bisexuality and heterosexuality or homosexuality. Bisexuality itself is a fixed sexual attraction. People's attraction doesn't really change, they can choose to stop pursuing certain relationships but no one can really get rid of the fact that they like men or like women.

Gender identities are also usually fixed for the majority of people... some people could be fluid in their gender expression which means that they might dress in a more "masculine" way one day and in a more "feminine" way the next day... but their actual gender identity could still remain fixed as a woman or as non-binary for example. Gender fluidity is typically referring to the way that people express themselves through their mannerism and clothing. It could also be used to describe people who's identities don't fit in completely with being a man or a woman, they don't feel like they fit in the binary and they are kind of floating between masculine and feminine and they might drift between those. But it has no correlation to sexuality/sexual identity.
Where do you get the idea that electrocution is involved in treatment of Same Sex Attraction Disorder?

I've never heard of such a thing.
 





Joined
Apr 12, 2017
Messages
1,277
Likes
1,728
#53
Great - at least I understand your position.

"man-made idea of "morality""

IF, THEN, ELSE:-

The big IF then - If the Ten Commandments were actually Moses trying to rein in a bunch of wandering tribes with some rules and if the subsequent supposed self-revelation of "God" were more of the same THEN ideas based on such primal morality would be subject to review and doubtless be outmoded, ELSE you misjudge the Bible and fail to attribute the source of the morality and its implications.

"Telling us to obey instinct is like telling us to obey 'people.' People say different things: so do instincts. Our instincts are at war. If it is held that the instinct for preserving the species should always be obeyed at the expense of other instincts, whence do we derive this rule of precedence? To listen to that instinct speaking in its own case and deciding in its own favour would be rather simple minded. Each instinct, if you listen to it, will claim to be gratified at the expense of all the rest. By the very act of listening to one rather than to others we have already prejudged the case. If we did not bring to the examination of our instincts a knowledge of their comparative dignity we could never learn it from them. And that knowledge cannot itself be instinctive: the judge cannot be one of the parties judged: or, if he is, the decision is worthless and there is no ground for placing preservation of the species above self-preservation or sexual appetite."
~ C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man
Are you even able to explain why you believe so strongly in the concept of instinct? I do not, because I recognize it as an illusion. We might assume instinct is "real", but it is not. It's only associated with the illusions of the ego. I've mentioned this concept before if you recall. The ego's only function is to ensure survival of the physical body. For those who operate under the belief that only the ego is real, instinct and selfishness will be central focus, and the higher intuitive mind, which is the portion that understands and has never forgotten that we are all one, will be mostly ignored. By becoming aware of the ego, a person can work with it as the tool it is intended to be, rather than just letting it "run the show" so to speak.
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
8,278
Likes
12,263
#54
Where do you get the idea that electrocution is involved in treatment of Same Sex Attraction Disorder?

I've never heard of such a thing.
It's worth bringing up even if it an absurd example. Not all "therapies" are created equal, as anyone who has received therapy will doubtless agree with.

Under the umbrella term "therapy" are numerous different philosophies and practices. To force anyone to undergo therapy to address an orientation they are quite happy with would be idiotic.

On the other hand, perhaps if, after native childhood experiences or abuse, someone finds themselves experiencing unwanted Same-Sex Attraction should they not be allowed to seek help?
 





Joined
Apr 12, 2017
Messages
1,277
Likes
1,728
#55
Is your household structured with you & your wife under the same roof, providing love, discipline & stability for the child?
Sure, but the reason we are a rock-solid family unit is because we are so mutually considerate and mindful of each others' needs. Our son chooses to put our needs ahead of his own, and obviously we try our best to do the same for him.
 





Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Messages
1,320
Likes
2,036
#56
Sure, but the reason we are a rock-solid family unit is because we are so mutually considerate and mindful of each others' needs. Our son chooses to put our needs ahead of his own, and obviously we try our best to do the same for him.
That is very good, a child always does best with both parents married and together.

You seem to emphasize unselfishness as a key virtue in your family....where do you suppose the characteristic of unselfishness originates?

I ask because, as human beings, we gravitate towards being selfish and putting others’ needs before our own is not something that comes naturally, but is something that must be taught.
 





Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Messages
1,320
Likes
2,036
#57
It's worth bringing up even if it an absurd example. Not all "therapies" are created equal, as anyone who has received therapy will doubtless agree with.

Under the umbrella term "therapy" are numerous different philosophies and practices. To force anyone to undergo therapy to address an orientation they are quite happy with would be idiotic.

On the other hand, perhaps if, after native childhood experiences or abuse, someone finds themselves experiencing unwanted Same-Sex Attraction should they not be allowed to seek help?
Absolutely!

Anyone who is experiencing unwanted SSAD that wants to overcome it should most definitely be provided with the therapy required to do so.

I really believe the misappropriation of funds by LGBT lobbyists & the stigmatization of treating unwanted SSAD is a major factor in the homosexual agenda.

This likely is a factor in the high suicide, depression & substance abuse/alcoholism & mental illnesses that affect the majority of LGBT people.

The perpetrators of the agenda do NOT want people to overcome such an unhealthy lifestyle. They prefer to call it normal (when it is ANYTHING but normal) & keep people trapped in it, praising each other for it instead of standing up against it.

That alone makes me question the motives & intentions of those who dissuade sufferers from receiving treatment and/or relief from their unwanted SSAD.
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
8,278
Likes
12,263
#58
Absolutely!

Anyone who is experiencing unwanted SSAD that wants to overcome it should most definitely be provided with the therapy required to do so.

I really believe the misappropriation of funds by LGBT lobbyists & the stigmatization of treating unwanted SSAD is a major factor in the homosexual agenda.

This likely is a factor in the high suicide, depression & substance abuse/alcoholism & mental illnesses that affect the majority of LGBT people.

The perpetrators of the agenda do NOT want people to overcome such an unhealthy lifestyle. They prefer to call it normal (when it is ANYTHING but normal) & keep people trapped in it, praising each other for it instead of standing up against it.

That alone makes me question the motives & intentions of those who dissuade sufferers from receiving treatment and/or relief from their unwanted SSAD.
This was the song of the "Marriage Equality" revolution...

"Born this way"


What I found interesting was the way the song came to be written:-

  • Gaga shared her process for writing this equality anthem in an interview with Vogue. "I wrote ['Born This Way'] in 10 f---ing minutes," she explained. "And it is a completely magical message song. And after I wrote it, the gates just opened, and the songs kept coming. It was like an immaculate conception."
  • "Born This Way" specifically references race and sexuality. The song has garnered criticism from some Asian and Hispanic communities, claiming that the lyrics' use of the terms "chola," "Lebanese" and "orient" to describe Latino and Asian communities is offensive and derogatory.
  • The song title was inspired by Carl Bean's 1977 gay disco anthem, "I Was Born This Way."
http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=22037
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
4,021
Likes
8,952
#60
Homosexuality will always be considered am abomination by anyone of faith. It's simply not supported by the basic construction of our anatomies. Anal penetration is what singles out homosexuals but there are heterosexual couples that do it and that is also wrong too.

To violate one's anal space is just incomprehensible and a complete illness in my eyes.

I don't believe anyone should be harmed for something as insignificant as their sexuality but I do welcome safe forms of therapy for those who wish to seek it.

Some may argue why does God have such an issue with homosexuality. It may seem like a insignificant sexual act but the health and societal consequences it carries aren't insignificant. Not to mention the immorality of laying with the same sex.

It's funny, the West used to have this exact stance and now all of a sudden a few psychologists deem it natural and anyone who opposes the act is called a nut or homophobic.

There's absolutely nothing scary about being around gay people. The same way atheists don't accept God, I don't accept it as a natural or sane behaviour for that matter. Free speech only works in the West if we're in favour of the popular opinion. Sometimes liberalism goes to far and we must stay conservative on core values and traditions to ensure the morality and progression of our future generations.