elsbet
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The irony here is too much for me, Red.
Trinity VS Tawheed
- Thread starter EpistemiX
- Start date
DesertRose
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Is the Noble Quran wrong regarding Mary?
http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/mary_worship.htm
One common verse that Christians always bring up is:
And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. [Qur'an 5:116]
Christians often argue that this verse is wrong, and the prophet Muhammad miss-understood what true Christian theology teaches. They also post this verse:
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger from Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Three": desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. [Qur'an 4:171]
Christians then say that the prophet Muhammad did not understand the true concept of the trinity and got it wrong. I am sure most Muslims have heard this argument over and over again. In this article we will simply examine how some Christians acted towards Mary and will then compare it with the Quran to see if there are any problems.
Firstly this verse:
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger from Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Three": desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. [Qur'an 4:171]
Contains no errors, the verse is telling Christians to not say three, which is what they always say, three as in trinity. As we see it is wrong according to the Quran.
They also like to quote this verse as well:
PICKTHAL: They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.
They like to claim that the three being mentioned here are Mary, Jesus, and Allah; they then argue this is a wrong picture of the trinity therefore the prophet Muhammad got it wrong.
As we shall shortly see, the Quran is not in error at all regarding Mary:
http://www.catholicconcerns.com/MaryWorship.html
As a faithful Catholic, and later as a nun, I was devoted to Mary. The prayers and practices were so familiar. They were taught to me by sincere people. I prayed the rosary, including rosary novenas. I wore a Brown Scapular and a Miraculous Medal. (You can read about these things in the Glossary, which is Appendix C.) I visited shrines that honor Mary. I had beautiful statues of Mary. I attended special services where we prayed to Mary and recited a litany of titles honoring her. I read books about apparitions of Mary, and dreamed of visiting Lourdes and Fatima. I participated in processions honoring Mary. A statue of Mary was put on a platform that was decorated with flowers. There were poles on the platform, so that men could carry it. The men walked through the streets, carrying the statue on the platform. We walked behind the statue, singing songs in Mary’s honor.
When Pope John Paul II was shot, while the ambulance was rushing him to the hospital, the Pope was not praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus. He kept saying, over and over: "Mary, my mother!" Polish pilgrims placed a picture of Our Lady of Czestochowa on the throne where the Pope normally sat. People gathered around the picture. Vatican loudspeakers broadcasted the prayers of the rosary. When the Pope recovered, he gave Mary all the glory for saving his life, and he made a pilgrimage to Fatima to publicly thank her. (Note 4)
One popular prayer in Mary’s honor is the "Hail Holy Queen," which is known in Latin as the "Salve Regina". It is traditionally included as part of praying the rosary.
"Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary."
Alfonsus de Liguori (1696-1787) was a principal proponent of the Marianist Movement, which glorifies Mary. He wrote a book entitled "The Glories of Mary" which is famous, influential and widely read. In this book, de Liguori says that Mary was given rulership over one half of the kingdom of God; Mary rules over the kingdom of mercy and Jesus rules over the kingdom of justice. De Liguori said that people should pray to Mary as a mediator and look to her as an object of trust for answered prayer. The book even says that there is no salvation outside of Mary. Some people suggest that these views are extreme and not representative of Catholic Church teaching. However, instead of silencing de Liguori as a heretic, the Catholic Church canonized him as a saint and declared him to be a "doctor of the Church" (a person whose teachings carry weight and authority). Furthermore, his book is openly and officially promoted by the Catholic Church, and his teachings have influenced popes. (Note 9)
Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that "[O]ne can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind." (Note 10) Pope Pius IX said: "Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her." (Note 11)
So note how this person explains how Catholics WORSHIP Mary, and look to her as a God, I mean they put their salvation in Mary!
Now Christians may be saying well this is wrong, and that Catholics are committing blasphemy, EXACTLY! The Quran makes sure it condemns all forms of blasphemy, just because this is not the trinity everyone is familiar with does not mean the Quran cannot condemn it. Secondly, there are lots of Catholics and there have been a lot of Mary worshippers throughout history so to say this is just a minor issue is an under-statement, this is something widely practiced.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm
Mary's Divine motherhood
Mary's Divine motherhood is based on the teaching of the Gospels, on the writings of the Fathers, and on the express definition of the Church. St. Matthew (1:25) testifies that Mary "brought forth her first-born son" and that He was called Jesus. According to St. John (1:15) Jesus is the Word made flesh, the Word Who assumed human nature in the womb of Mary. As Mary was truly the mother of Jesus, and as Jesus was truly God from the first moment of His conception, Mary is truly the mother of God. Even the earliest Fathers did not hesitate to draw this conclusion as may be seen in the writings of St. Ignatius [72], St. Irenaeus [73], and Tertullian [74]. The contention of Nestorius denying to Mary the title "Mother of God" [75] was followed by the teaching of the Council of Ephesus proclaiming Mary to be Theotokos in the true sense of the word. [76]
Early writings
For the attitude of the Churches of Asia Minor and of Lyons we may appeal to the words of St. Irenaeus, a pupil of St. John's disciple Polycarp [145]; he calls Mary our most eminent advocate. St. Ignatius of Antioch, part of whose life reached back into apostolic times, wrote to the Ephesians (c. 18-19) in such a way as to connect the mysteries of Our Lord's life more closely with those of the Virgin Mary. For instance, the virginity of Mary, and her childbirth, are enumerated with Christ's death, as forming three mysteries unknown to the devil. The sub-apostolic author of the Epistle to Diognetus, writing to a pagan inquirer concerning the Christian mysteries, describes Mary as the great antithesis of Eve, and this idea of Our Lady occurs repeatedly in other writers even before the Council of Ephesus. We have repeatedly appealed to the words of St. Justin and Tertullian, both of whom wrote before the end of the second century.
As it is admitted that the praises of Mary grow with the growth of the Christian community, we may conclude in brief that the veneration of and devotion to Mary began even in the time of the Apostles.
Let us now examine the dates of those Church Fathers who held Mary in such a high honorable position, as a Goddess you could say:
St. Ignatius of Antioch
Also called Theophorus (ho Theophoros); born in Syria, around the year 50; died at Rome between 98 and 117.
St. Irenaeus
Information as to his life is scarce, and in some measure inexact. He was born in Proconsular Asia, or at least in some province bordering thereon, in the first half of the second century; the exact date is controverted, between the years 115 and 125, according to some, or, according to others, between 130 and 142
Tertullian
His conversion was not later than the year 197, and may have been earlier. He embraced the Faith with all the ardour of his impetuous nature. He became a priest, no doubt of the Church of Carthage. Monceaux, followed by d'Ales, considers that his earlier writings were composed while he was yet a layman, and if this be so, then his ordination was about 200. His extant writings range in date from the apologetics of 197 to the attack on a bishop who is probably Pope Callistus (after 218). It was after the year 206 that he joined the Montanist sect, and he seems to have definitively separated from the Church about 211 (Harnack) or 213 (Monceaux). After writing more virulently against the Church than even against heathen and persecutors, he separated from the Montanists and founded a sect of his own. The remnant of the Tertullianists was reconciled to the Church by St. Augustine. A number of the works of Tertullian are on special points of belief or discipline. According to St. Jerome he lived to extreme old age.
Council of Ephesus
The third ecumenical council, held in 431.
So all these Church Fathers and Council which did see Mary as divine, all took place before Islam came and was revealed. Hence the Quran was merely exposing this wrong blasphemous belief of the worship of Mary, and making her into a divine being something she was not!
http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/mary_worship.htm
One common verse that Christians always bring up is:
And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. [Qur'an 5:116]
Christians often argue that this verse is wrong, and the prophet Muhammad miss-understood what true Christian theology teaches. They also post this verse:
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger from Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Three": desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. [Qur'an 4:171]
Christians then say that the prophet Muhammad did not understand the true concept of the trinity and got it wrong. I am sure most Muslims have heard this argument over and over again. In this article we will simply examine how some Christians acted towards Mary and will then compare it with the Quran to see if there are any problems.
Firstly this verse:
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger from Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Three": desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. [Qur'an 4:171]
Contains no errors, the verse is telling Christians to not say three, which is what they always say, three as in trinity. As we see it is wrong according to the Quran.
They also like to quote this verse as well:
PICKTHAL: They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.
They like to claim that the three being mentioned here are Mary, Jesus, and Allah; they then argue this is a wrong picture of the trinity therefore the prophet Muhammad got it wrong.
As we shall shortly see, the Quran is not in error at all regarding Mary:
http://www.catholicconcerns.com/MaryWorship.html
As a faithful Catholic, and later as a nun, I was devoted to Mary. The prayers and practices were so familiar. They were taught to me by sincere people. I prayed the rosary, including rosary novenas. I wore a Brown Scapular and a Miraculous Medal. (You can read about these things in the Glossary, which is Appendix C.) I visited shrines that honor Mary. I had beautiful statues of Mary. I attended special services where we prayed to Mary and recited a litany of titles honoring her. I read books about apparitions of Mary, and dreamed of visiting Lourdes and Fatima. I participated in processions honoring Mary. A statue of Mary was put on a platform that was decorated with flowers. There were poles on the platform, so that men could carry it. The men walked through the streets, carrying the statue on the platform. We walked behind the statue, singing songs in Mary’s honor.
When Pope John Paul II was shot, while the ambulance was rushing him to the hospital, the Pope was not praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus. He kept saying, over and over: "Mary, my mother!" Polish pilgrims placed a picture of Our Lady of Czestochowa on the throne where the Pope normally sat. People gathered around the picture. Vatican loudspeakers broadcasted the prayers of the rosary. When the Pope recovered, he gave Mary all the glory for saving his life, and he made a pilgrimage to Fatima to publicly thank her. (Note 4)
One popular prayer in Mary’s honor is the "Hail Holy Queen," which is known in Latin as the "Salve Regina". It is traditionally included as part of praying the rosary.
"Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary."
Alfonsus de Liguori (1696-1787) was a principal proponent of the Marianist Movement, which glorifies Mary. He wrote a book entitled "The Glories of Mary" which is famous, influential and widely read. In this book, de Liguori says that Mary was given rulership over one half of the kingdom of God; Mary rules over the kingdom of mercy and Jesus rules over the kingdom of justice. De Liguori said that people should pray to Mary as a mediator and look to her as an object of trust for answered prayer. The book even says that there is no salvation outside of Mary. Some people suggest that these views are extreme and not representative of Catholic Church teaching. However, instead of silencing de Liguori as a heretic, the Catholic Church canonized him as a saint and declared him to be a "doctor of the Church" (a person whose teachings carry weight and authority). Furthermore, his book is openly and officially promoted by the Catholic Church, and his teachings have influenced popes. (Note 9)
Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that "[O]ne can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind." (Note 10) Pope Pius IX said: "Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her." (Note 11)
So note how this person explains how Catholics WORSHIP Mary, and look to her as a God, I mean they put their salvation in Mary!
Now Christians may be saying well this is wrong, and that Catholics are committing blasphemy, EXACTLY! The Quran makes sure it condemns all forms of blasphemy, just because this is not the trinity everyone is familiar with does not mean the Quran cannot condemn it. Secondly, there are lots of Catholics and there have been a lot of Mary worshippers throughout history so to say this is just a minor issue is an under-statement, this is something widely practiced.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm
Mary's Divine motherhood
Mary's Divine motherhood is based on the teaching of the Gospels, on the writings of the Fathers, and on the express definition of the Church. St. Matthew (1:25) testifies that Mary "brought forth her first-born son" and that He was called Jesus. According to St. John (1:15) Jesus is the Word made flesh, the Word Who assumed human nature in the womb of Mary. As Mary was truly the mother of Jesus, and as Jesus was truly God from the first moment of His conception, Mary is truly the mother of God. Even the earliest Fathers did not hesitate to draw this conclusion as may be seen in the writings of St. Ignatius [72], St. Irenaeus [73], and Tertullian [74]. The contention of Nestorius denying to Mary the title "Mother of God" [75] was followed by the teaching of the Council of Ephesus proclaiming Mary to be Theotokos in the true sense of the word. [76]
Early writings
For the attitude of the Churches of Asia Minor and of Lyons we may appeal to the words of St. Irenaeus, a pupil of St. John's disciple Polycarp [145]; he calls Mary our most eminent advocate. St. Ignatius of Antioch, part of whose life reached back into apostolic times, wrote to the Ephesians (c. 18-19) in such a way as to connect the mysteries of Our Lord's life more closely with those of the Virgin Mary. For instance, the virginity of Mary, and her childbirth, are enumerated with Christ's death, as forming three mysteries unknown to the devil. The sub-apostolic author of the Epistle to Diognetus, writing to a pagan inquirer concerning the Christian mysteries, describes Mary as the great antithesis of Eve, and this idea of Our Lady occurs repeatedly in other writers even before the Council of Ephesus. We have repeatedly appealed to the words of St. Justin and Tertullian, both of whom wrote before the end of the second century.
As it is admitted that the praises of Mary grow with the growth of the Christian community, we may conclude in brief that the veneration of and devotion to Mary began even in the time of the Apostles.
Let us now examine the dates of those Church Fathers who held Mary in such a high honorable position, as a Goddess you could say:
St. Ignatius of Antioch
Also called Theophorus (ho Theophoros); born in Syria, around the year 50; died at Rome between 98 and 117.
St. Irenaeus
Information as to his life is scarce, and in some measure inexact. He was born in Proconsular Asia, or at least in some province bordering thereon, in the first half of the second century; the exact date is controverted, between the years 115 and 125, according to some, or, according to others, between 130 and 142
Tertullian
His conversion was not later than the year 197, and may have been earlier. He embraced the Faith with all the ardour of his impetuous nature. He became a priest, no doubt of the Church of Carthage. Monceaux, followed by d'Ales, considers that his earlier writings were composed while he was yet a layman, and if this be so, then his ordination was about 200. His extant writings range in date from the apologetics of 197 to the attack on a bishop who is probably Pope Callistus (after 218). It was after the year 206 that he joined the Montanist sect, and he seems to have definitively separated from the Church about 211 (Harnack) or 213 (Monceaux). After writing more virulently against the Church than even against heathen and persecutors, he separated from the Montanists and founded a sect of his own. The remnant of the Tertullianists was reconciled to the Church by St. Augustine. A number of the works of Tertullian are on special points of belief or discipline. According to St. Jerome he lived to extreme old age.
Council of Ephesus
The third ecumenical council, held in 431.
So all these Church Fathers and Council which did see Mary as divine, all took place before Islam came and was revealed. Hence the Quran was merely exposing this wrong blasphemous belief of the worship of Mary, and making her into a divine being something she was not!
AspiringSoul
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In the entire Quran you'll never find a verse that specifically refers to the TRINITY as
The Father, Jesus and his mother Mary.
Here's what we find regarding the trinity specifically.
(1) O people of the Scripture (Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh ) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.
(سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #171)
and this
(2) Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a trinity)." But there is no Ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them.
(سورة المائدة, Al-Maaida, Chapter #5, Verse #73)
The verse referring to the apparent 'divinity' of Mary is this one
(21) And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Îsa (Jesus), son of maryam (mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner-self though I do not know what is in Yours; truly, You, only You, are the All-Knower of all that is hidden (and unseen).
(سورة المائدة, Al-Maaida, Chapter #5, Verse #116)
The TRINITARIAN doctrine is not mentioned here. This verse does not contain a christian 'statement of belief' like the earlier ones
earlier it said
Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a trinity)."
Say not: "Three (trinity)!"
verse 116 instead says
Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?'
this isnt a specific statement of belief attached to any christian group like the trinitarian doctrine, it's a reference to the act of worship.
There is a difference, a doctrine is the theoretical side, the act of worship is the mystical side.
have christians are any point worshipped Mary as divinity? absolutely.
so what are you whining about?
She sure is venerated in Catholic circles.
This form of idolatry crept into Catholicism as an angelic apparition.
Much like your Gabriel.
If an angelic apparition told you he/she was Gabriel/Mary... would you not believe it ?
TempestOfTempo
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If you offered actual discussion, posters here might welcome it.
Instead, your main goal seems to be provoking Muslims, Liberals, Christians whom dont agree with your interpretation of that faith, Immigrants in general and specifically those to the US (where you do not, and have never lived?), critics of Zionist Israeli policy and Trump (again, even though he is president of a nation you have never been a citizen of?) and most everyone else. Over and over again you provoke confrontation which detracts from the overarching goal of this website.... time and time again you derail productive dialog because the truths contained in those conversations run counter to your alt-right fever fantasy.
You are disgusting because you aint just some lame-brained, fully blinded Trump supporter (although to say you are intellectually compromised would still be phrasing your situation mildly). You realize what you are attempting to do everytime you do it, and you make light of things like your hero Trump stealing and abusing children. So congrats, you are simultaneously smart enough to make you antics here even more despicable, yet stupid enough to continue engaging in them.
If you are so fired up for "discussion" why dont you reply to the multitude of threads where your garbage rhetoric has already been addressed? Those pages are just calling out for your reply Dumbdarian!
TempestOfTempo
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"This form of idolatry crept into Catholicism as an angelic apparition.
Much like your Gabriel.
If an angelic apparition told you he/she was Gabriel/Mary... would you not believe it ?"
Im interested in your contention here, would you care to elaborate a bit on it?
If an angel appeared to you and said she is Mary... would you believe her ?
AspiringSoul
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Mary was a person, not an angel.
Moroni who came to joseph smith told him it had past lives and used to be a sailor amongst other things. so in otherwords it was a jinn claiming to be an angel.
the evidence is in logic courtesy of islamic theology.
i dont know what you faux christians follow, but in our religion we know how to differentiate between a jinn and an angel.
Claiming to be the arc angel Gabriel is no joke...but i kind of know my level so i would know for sure it isnt gabriel if for example it was an ASTRAL being.
because the astral plane is not the angelic plane. astral=kama=desire body plane. desire is fire is the jinn world.
muslims have better knowledge than you. straight up. i have seen countless examples where christians have believed in astral entities as their Jesus, angel, mary etc. that sort of stuff doesnt work in my religion.
Yes it's a big problem.
Youtube is littered with Christians claiming to hear from the Father and/or the Son and/or the Holy spirit.
But Jesus said... Don't believe it.
TempestOfTempo
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Im not sure what your question-answer to my questions means..... are you saying that Mary is or isnt real or that Gabriel is or isnt real? Not trying to be evasive, just not sure what your meaning is here.
I'm just saying if a supernatural being looking like an angel told you he/she is Gabriel/Mary... what would you do ?
TempestOfTempo
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Speculation is a bit pointless, I would have to cross that bridge once I came to it.......