Trinity VS Tawheed

EpistemiX

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#1
Which makes more sense?

The Trinity?

Or Abrahamic Monotheism known as Tawheed in Arabic?

Reverend Samuel Green debates Ustadh Adnan Rashid at Twynholm Baptist Church in London on the 26th October 2018

Production credit and Copyright: Dawah Digital

 





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#2
Trinity makes sense when u understand it in light of His Immanence
The ave Christian doesn't get it
Why all these dumb debates when they miss the point entirely? It's been done to death
 





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#3
I believe the God of the Bible is the true God.

Therefore i took the time to investigate His Name. Perhaps there was some knowledge about God to gain from looking at His Name. And to my surprise i was not let down. His Name says it all really.

The Hebrew script devolved over time to the unintelligble scratch marks which we are left with today. But it was not always so... in the time of Moses who wrote the Torah the Hebrew script was written with pictographs.



So when God said to Moses in Exodus 6... I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Moses would write or draw the Name of God as... a hand and a person and a nail and a person.

Before Jesus this would not make much sense... but for 2000 years the Name of God makes perfect sense.


There is no reason to explain or confuse this to death.

One person crucified the other person.


Why ?

That is the question you ought to ask.

Why did a person in the Name of God crucify the other person in the same Name of God ?


Why did God crucify God ?



And if you want the short answer it was because the two Persons who make up the Name of God knew very well that mankind would be led astray by the Devil and his demons and not obey the Law of God.

And to break the Law of God is not a light thing to do.

We simply do not break the Law and hope to live.

If we break the Holy Law of God and hope to live... God must take our place and pay our penalty for breaking the Law with His own Blood.


Good News He Did !

So now you know and can repent and stop breaking the Holy Law of God and all will be well with you... forever and ever.


Of course you have no inclination to repent and not break the Law of God if you don't believe Jesus is God.

So do you believe ?


If you don't believe Jesus is God you will go on your own way or one of the Devil's denominations or religions.

Therefore it is imperative to believe Jesus is God and to study His words which He is more than able to protect and preserve for you to read. Or else you will be led astray man.


The Devil is roaring like a little lion looking for someone to devour.

Will you be his prey ?


Or will you resist him until the big Lion from the tribe of Judah returns ?
 





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#4
Lolol
This idiot os talking about only following the Bible whilst he uses kabballah's gematria system. a letter is associated with a number that then corresponds to a kabbalistic idea..
Eg the HAND is connected to something Maimonides wrote in the middle ages

Talk about desperate measures.
 





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#5
Lolol
This idiot os talking about only following the Bible whilst he uses kabballah's gematria system. a letter is associated with a number that then corresponds to a kabbalistic idea...
I thought you were talking about me there for a second... but could not quite make sense of that.

So i read on and got a word for your own well being.

Do not fall into the temptation to call anybody an idiot... a dawg maybe but not an idiot.

You can get away with dawg but idiot is not good in fact in danger of hellfire.

Faux too is good so why not stick to that ?
 





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#7
Islam's view of the Trinity is based on Muhammad's misunderstanding of it, so I don't expect it to make sense to Muslims anyway.
you're basing this off the assumption that historically all christians have 'understood it' when in reality most haven't. I'm sure i can walk around in many parts of the world where christians hold bad interpretations of it
For example...when most of you think of SON you literally hold the image of Baby Jesus or at least Jesus the man. In this format, the Father is perceived as a literal man-giant in the sky who literally begot a son.
I have chatted to a christian on here who said the God in Genesis, the one who was playing hide and seek with Adam and Even in paradise, is literally the actual God.
in islamic tawheed that would fail completely because 'Allah is not contained in a place'.
manifested via His Immanence, sure..but literally a man-giant type of entity, that is kufr.
Furthermore im sure catholics refer to mary as the literal mother of God.

these are problematic statements for most people. Religion has to cater to the dumb too. It is not very wise to preach grand philosophical ideas to joe public when you know very well most will misinterpret it.

The view of the trinity i hold to be true is that the Son and Holy Spirit are really the Macrocosmic and Microcosmic expression of God ie Spirit/consciousness, universal and individual.

Islam was given to bedoin arab people..and even today many of the converts to islam are people in prison's for example. They hold simple ideas
'God is 3 didnt make sense, so we became muslim, it makes sense'

btw i have literally yet to ever meet a christian who could actually explain the trinity according to your held beliefs. it has always been a fail. I read St Augustine's book of the trinity and even that was just, all over the place. He tried to defend it from a philosophical standpoint and failed.
Yet the irony is Plotinus, a non-christian greek philosopher who travelled to Persia to learn philosophy...understood the trinity far better.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plotinus#Major_ideas
IN FACT the christians actually based their own interpretation of the trinity OFF plotinus!! people like st augustine were influenced by him.

I've always said the concept of Trinity, The logos, the incarnation, the holy spirit etc are all influenced by VEDIC/hindu philosophy.
The fact is Philo the jewish philosopher based his ideas off greek philosophy which was influenced by persian and ultimately originates from india.

So basically christians like yourself are not even qualified to teach the rest of us about the trinitarian doctrine.





Aside from all that, muslims should not try tackling this topic from a tawheed angle. Tawheed is the logical perspective. the trinity is a mystical perspective.
 





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#8
12:106
And most of them believe not in Allah except while they associate others with Him.



13:30
Thus have We sent you to a community before which [other] communities have passed on so you might recite to them that which We revealed to you, while they disbelieve in the Most Merciful. Say, "He is my Lord; there is no deity except Him. Upon Him I rely, and to Him is my return."

As in Surah al-An’am, Allah (The One God ) says:

[He is] Originator of the heavens and the earth. How could He have a son when He does not have a companion and He created all things? And He is, of all things, Knowing.


Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said:
None is more patient than Allah against the harmful and annoying words He hears (from the people): They ascribe children to Him, yet He bestows upon them health and provision.

surah 112
Allah (The One God ) says:

  • Say: He is Allah, the One!
  • Allah, the Eternal, the Absolute!
  • He begets not, nor was He begotten;
  • And there is none comparable unto Him
 





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EpistemiX

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#9
...I don't expect it to make sense to Muslims anyway.
How can it? Christians themselves are so confuddled over it.

Are the differences between Catholic and Protestant theology so different that it can be said they both believe in different gods? Many will say that Catholics and Protestants both believe in the Trinity. However, what they both mean by "trinity" is vastly different.

That's just two sects... mind ushering in others? so we can see how disparaging the theology really is?

I never expected the Trinity to make sense to Christians, and I would like you to prove why ;)
 





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#11
Clicked to read comments
A lot of gross comments there...



Clicked on the one uploaded by hijab, comments are the complete opposite.

Was there any point to this debate?

The Nicene creed is false because it wasn't given by the Jesus, the apostles or the early church.

There's nothing to debate. Subjective interpretations of the Bible don't cut the mustard. There was never any statement that flat out said what the Nicene creed does.
 





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#12
Many will say that Catholics and Protestants both believe in the Trinity.
People who say that, may not realise it, but it is saying the exact same as:

"...Catholics and Protestants both believe in the Catholicism".

Because that is literally what the trinity is. The trinity literally IS Catholicism.

It's the central dogma of the Catholic Church, upon which everything else is based, and that Catholics are obligated to believe.

The Protestants therefore, who still believe the trinity, have in reality remained and are therefore still Catholic.

Because, that is what it means to be Catholic. To believe the trinity. So, it turns out that almost all Christians are actually Catholics, by definition and yet, they do not even know it.

If someone believes the "trinity" doctrine then they are a Catholic, because that is what it means to be a Catholic since that is Catholicism at its core (it's the central and most important doctrine/dogma of Roman Catholicism).
 





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#14
People who say that, may not realise it, but it is saying the exact same as:

"...Catholics and Protestants both believe in the Catholicism".

Because that is literally what the trinity is. The trinity literally IS Catholicism.

It's the central dogma of the Catholic Church, upon which everything else is based, and that Catholics are obligated to believe.

The Protestants therefore, who still believe the trinity, have in reality remained and are therefore still Catholic.

Because, that is what it means to be Catholic. To believe the trinity. So, it turns out that almost all Christians are actually Catholics, by definition and yet, they do not even know it.

If someone believes the "trinity" doctrine then they are a Catholic, because that is what it means to be a Catholic since that is Catholicism at its core (it's the central and most important doctrine/dogma of Roman Catholicism).
There is so much that can be said on your observation here. As it articulates a position commonly held by Muslims it is worth breaking down from a logical standpoint.

At the time of the Nicene creed there wasnt a denomination called "Catholicism", rather, it was simply a consensus of what most Christians believed. Catholicism itself grew, developed and eventually lost its way through the centuries to that what had ultimately become Catholicism by the time of Luther was so different to biblical Christianity that the Reformation occurred.

Some of the doctrines the Catholics held to were unbiblical and Protestants rejected them. Others were most certainly biblical and were part of the understanding formalised as the early church went to the work of trying to set out written understandings of doctrines to prevent heresies.

If you picture a man climbing a cliff face he might nail in a peg at various points to protect him from falling off. These pegs are like the creeds and simply represent the route the church has climbed in its understanding of how to interpret the Bible. I picture the man starting in the right direction with the early creeds, then as Catholicism went off track pegs were knocked in higher up which represented a departure from the route first intended.

I know we differ in whether we see the Trinity as an intrinsically "Catholic peg", but at least I hope you understand the analogy?
 





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#17
There is so much that can be said on your observation here. As it articulates a position commonly held by Muslims it is worth breaking down from a logical standpoint.
That is probably not surprising, since the Qur'an contains the following verses about it:

4:171. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of God aught but the Truth. Jesus the (human) son of Mary was (no more than) an Apostle of God; and His Word (John 1:14), which He bestowed on Mary's (human) son; was a spirit-Being (Christ) proceeding from Him (making the human+Being called Jesus+Christ): so believe God and His Apostles. Say NOT "Trinity": DESIST: it will be better for you: for "I AM" is one God. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a human son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs.

5:75. They do blaspheme who say: "("I AM") is Jesus the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! Worship God, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with God,- "I AM" will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
5:76. They do blaspheme who say: "I AM" is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous Penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

37:151. Is it not that they say, from their own invention,
37:152. "("I AM") has begotten (human) children"? but they are liars!
37:153. Did He (then) choose daughters rather than sons?
37:154. What is the matter with you? How judge ye?
37:155. Will ye not then receive Warning?
37:156. Or have ye an authority to manifest?
37:157. Then bring ye your Book (of authority) if ye be truthful!
37:158. And they have invented a BLOOD-relationship between Him and the Beings: but the Beings know (quite well) that they [like Him are SPIRIT and] have indeed to appear (before His Judgment-Seat)!
37:159. Glory to "I AM"! (He is free) from the things they ascribe (to Him)!
37:160. Not (so, do) the sincere and devoted Servants of "I AM".

That is a pretty stern warning being given. We know, that the Church of Rome has done this and more. But, even before the Koran was written, there were already the warnings from Christ, in the Revelation:

17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great CITY, which reigneth over the kings of the earth (Rome).
18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was Lightened with his glory (Matt. 24:27; Luke 17:24).
18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon (the City of Merchants - Market System) the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils (liars), and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, COME OUT of her, MY people, that ye take not part in her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues (punishment).

(Above quotes are from the "King of kings' Bible".)

At the time of the Nicene creed there wasnt a denomination called "Catholicism", rather, it was simply a consensus of what most Christians believed. Catholicism itself grew, developed and eventually lost its way through the centuries to that what had ultimately become Catholicism by the time of Luther was so different to biblical Christianity that the Reformation occurred.

Some of the doctrines the Catholics held to were unbiblical and Protestants rejected them. Others were most certainly biblical and were part of the understanding formalised as the early church went to the work of trying to set out written understandings of doctrines to prevent heresies.

If you picture a man climbing a cliff face he might nail in a peg at various points to protect him from falling off. These pegs are like the creeds and simply represent the route the church has climbed in its understanding of how to interpret the Bible. I picture the man starting in the right direction with the early creeds, then as Catholicism went off track pegs were knocked in higher up which represented a departure from the route first intended.

I know we differ in whether we see the Trinity as an intrinsically "Catholic peg", but at least I hope you understand the analogy?
Thank you, and yes, the analogy you provided is certainly simple enough to follow through. I think it also serves to describe the problem, that of men wanting to put down those "pegs" (creeds), especially it shows how they do not lead up, but instead became a process of actually leading away from the true doctrine... that was already given and is complete - the Scripture itself!

You mentioned about the church men wanting to prevent heresies, which can certainly be a correct statement, I think as long as we understand correctly that heresy was always seen as being a departure from any of the official doctrinal stances ("pegs") of the Church. Remember, the Pope has always been seen by the church as being the "vicar" of Christ. Vicar meaning "substitute". (and it gets much, much worse from there on out).. As far as I'm aware, most if not all of the reformers agreed upon the position that the papacy was either seen as clearly being the anti-christ (or at least, an anti-christ).

(As Christian Pinto I believe mentioned in the film, A Lamp in The Dark, or in its sequel)

So... the papacy and the popes are seen by the Church as being the "substitute of Christ". And if anyone disagreed with them, and their (supposed) "authority" (which is therefore total), and any such person became enough of a nuisance for them to be seen as a potential threat.. the church would declare them to be a heretic through the issuing of "anathemas" by the Church (which many of were contained in the earlier creeds) and at risk of being excommunicated, if not something worse.

I guess my point of view, if using your analogy about the pegs, is that is really illustrating the whole problem humanity has had! Wanting to build it's own (always diverging) doctrines, to then place on top of the actual doctrine, of the revealed Scripture itself.
 





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#18
That is probably not surprising, since the Qur'an contains the following verses about it:

4:171. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of God aught but the Truth. Jesus the (human) son of Mary was (no more than) an Apostle of God; and His Word (John 1:14), which He bestowed on Mary's (human) son; was a spirit-Being (Christ) proceeding from Him (making the human+Being called Jesus+Christ): so believe God and His Apostles. Say NOT "Trinity": DESIST: it will be better for you: for "I AM" is one God. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a human son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs.

5:75. They do blaspheme who say: "("I AM") is Jesus the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! Worship God, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with God,- "I AM" will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
5:76. They do blaspheme who say: "I AM" is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous Penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

37:151. Is it not that they say, from their own invention,
37:152. "("I AM") has begotten (human) children"? but they are liars!
37:153. Did He (then) choose daughters rather than sons?
37:154. What is the matter with you? How judge ye?
37:155. Will ye not then receive Warning?
37:156. Or have ye an authority to manifest?
37:157. Then bring ye your Book (of authority) if ye be truthful!
37:158. And they have invented a BLOOD-relationship between Him and the Beings: but the Beings know (quite well) that they [like Him are SPIRIT and] have indeed to appear (before His Judgment-Seat)!
37:159. Glory to "I AM"! (He is free) from the things they ascribe (to Him)!
37:160. Not (so, do) the sincere and devoted Servants of "I AM".

That is a pretty stern warning being given. We know, that the Church of Rome has done this and more. But, even before the Koran was written, there were already the warnings from Christ, in the Revelation:

17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great CITY, which reigneth over the kings of the earth (Rome).
18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was Lightened with his glory (Matt. 24:27; Luke 17:24).
18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon (the City of Merchants - Market System) the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils (liars), and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, COME OUT of her, MY people, that ye take not part in her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues (punishment).

(Above quotes are from the "King of kings' Bible".)


Thank you, and yes, the analogy you provided is certainly simple enough to follow through. I think it also serves to describe the problem, that of men wanting to put down those "pegs" (creeds), especially it shows how they do not lead up, but instead became a process of actually leading away from the true doctrine... that was already given and is complete - the Scripture itself!

You mentioned about the church men wanting to prevent heresies, which can certainly be a correct statement, I think as long as we understand correctly that heresy was always seen as being a departure from any of the official doctrinal stances ("pegs") of the Church. Remember, the Pope has always been seen by the church as being the "vicar" of Christ. Vicar meaning "substitute". (and it gets much, much worse from there on out).. As far as I'm aware, most if not all of the reformers agreed upon the position that the papacy was either seen as clearly being the anti-christ (or at least, an anti-christ).

(As Christian Pinto I believe mentioned in the film, A Lamp in The Dark, or in its sequel)

So... the papacy and the popes are seen by the Church as being the "substitute of Christ". And if anyone disagreed with them, and their (supposed) "authority" (which is therefore total), and any such person became enough of a nuisance for them to be seen as a potential threat.. the church would declare them to be a heretic through the issuing of "anathemas" by the Church (which many of were contained in the earlier creeds) and at risk of being excommunicated, if not something worse.

I guess my point of view, if using your analogy about the pegs, is that is really illustrating the whole problem humanity has had! Wanting to build it's own (always diverging) doctrines, to then place on top of the actual doctrine, of the revealed Scripture itself.
AHH - the "King of Kings Bible"

http://jahtruth.net/kofk-free/Bible/

You might get along well with @Forever Light !

Btw, I perfectly understand why it is almost impossible for a Muslim to contemplate the idea of a Trinity, as even considering the idea would be a "thought crime" against Allah of the worst kind.

Shirk-The-Greatest-Crime.jpg
 





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#19
The Trinity is man’s lowly attempt to describe the indescribable. The Trinity doctrine is not found in the Bible. Therefore the Trinity is not essential or required for salvation. Even as an inadequate and flawed description of God, belief in the Trinity doctrine does not confirm or deny anyone’s faith or salvation.

If you need the Trinity doctrine to keep your faith grounded then more power to you. But there are many believers who have rejected the Trinity doctrine because we have found other explanations of God’s nature that for us align better with what we see in God’s word.

The reality is we all see and understand dimly through a veil in this age. But praise God we will all see him face to face in the ages to come.
 





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#20
AHH - the "King of Kings Bible"

http://jahtruth.net/kofk-free/Bible/

You might get along well with @Forever Light !
That is me. As I've said, multiple times including before changing my username. The only way to change a username on this forum, is by creating a completely new account, and I wanted to change it to bible_student. I thought you knew?

Yes, that is the correct link to the King of kings' Bible.

There is also this link, that tells more about it: http://jahtruth.net/kofkad.htm