Trinitarian Controversies

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#61
You really think I haven’t prayed and asked God to show me truth? I used the believe the same dogma of the church that you spout out. There is much you have right and I have no doubt about your faith in God and your sincerity. The longer you seek God and serve him the more you will realize what you believe is not really what the Bible says but you will also realize that dogma and doctrine mean little if it doesn’t actually produce fruit in your life. The Bible says taste and see the lord is good. For 25 years I tasted what the organized church was serving. A lot of it was good but there was also plenty that was not. I have tasted things that are not well know in the organized Church and often bring the condemnation and judgment of others (this I agree with and is true, That is why I am not in an organized Church) such as yourself??? However when I take survey of the fruit in my life that is the result of my beliefs that is the true test. I know my redeemer and my Lord. I know the peace that surpasses all understanding.

Thank you for your concern. When you can show me how a different belief or doctrine is able to produce fruit in my life I will listen and be opened minded. Until then your abstract, dogma filled drivel is of little use to me.
I was taught by the Lord himself and do not belong to any dogma or denominational doctrine. The one thing absence in your post is grace of which all born again believers have. Your post would turn any weak Christian away from seeking God by lack of peace for others...eve if they are ignorant.
Not So much brotherly love in your post. It is best to depart instead of showing anger to the harvest.
 





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#62
This point is not necessarily directed at you @Todd but as you bring this point up, I think it is an interesting one to explore...

The power of the Hegelian dialectic on our doctrinal positions.

This is not to say that for the most part, Christians read the Bible for themselves and can clearly understand the core doctrines of the faith, but where certain doctrines are more complex and not immediately clear, I suspect something else can occur...
See that is the thing, most Christians don't learn the core doctrines of the faith by reading the Bible for themselves. They are either are raised in a Christian home and taught the dogma of the sect their family is a part of, or they become converts and learn the dogma of the sect that the person who introduced them to the faith belongs to. By the time they begin reading the Bible for themselves they have already become indoctrinated in the sect they belong to, so they have already become biased to read what they have previously been taught into the texts.

On a purely human level, the power of a persuasive positive individual, full of grace and love speaking in favour of a particular view or, perhaps to an even greater extent, an unappealing, rude, graceless person badgering and bullying their opposing point can make it feel emotionally that they must be in the wrong.

I am not saying that we all do this to the same extent, but I have to admit that my own hardness of heart to certain ideas, and receptivity to others is not invulnerable from consideration of the person espousing them.
If you change "person" to "people" in this sentence, it can be a useful tool in determining the fruit of a doctrine. Shouldn't a doctrine ultimately be judged by the fruit it produces in those who espouse them?

P.s. because we are emotional beings and not just doctrinal computers, we do well to realise the power of psychological pulls and pushes on the development of ideas...
Exactly which is why many Christians are tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
 





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#63
I was taught by the Lord himself and do not belong to any dogma or denominational doctrine. The one thing absence in your post is grace of which all born again believers have. Your post would turn any weak Christian away from seeking God by lack of peace for others...eve if they are ignorant.
Not So much brotherly love in your post. It is best to depart instead of showing anger to the harvest.
Really? I specifically stated I believe you are sincere in your beliefs and have faith in God. I have never questioned or accused your salvation of not being genuine. You have made clear that in your opinion I am not born again and accused me of not being saved or in fellowship with God. So who is lacking grace in this picture?

What exactly about my post would turn a weak Christian away from seeking God?
 





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#64
See that is the thing, most Christians don't learn the core doctrines of the faith by reading the Bible for themselves. They are either are raised in a Christian home and taught the dogma of the sect their family is a part of, or they become converts and learn the dogma of the sect that the person who introduced them to the faith belongs to. By the time they begin reading the Bible for themselves they have already become indoctrinated in the sect they belong to, so they have already become biased to read what they have previously been taught into the texts.


If you change "person" to "people" in this sentence, it can be a useful tool in determining the fruit of a doctrine. Shouldn't a doctrine ultimately be judged by the fruit it produces in those who espouse them?



Exactly which is why many Christians are tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
I mentally shake hands with some of your observations, but surely you must be aware that the Modus Operandi of the Jesuits is to take advantage of our human psychology and present false doctrine in a most appealing, “winsome” way.

Our present Pope is a Jesuit, and there will ultimately come one with the appearance of a lamb and the voice of a dragon who will deceive many.

What I wanted to draw out was a the importance of separation of doctrine from personality and genuine critical thinking from polemic.
 





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#65
@Todd

Let me tell you a true story of church done badly. I was at college and I had an atheist friend CJ* in my lectures.

*not his real name...

Over time, CJ and I talked through many things. He had heard all the religious stuff before and was interested in Evolution, Quantum Physics and philosophy. We talked about meaning, deconstructionism, Foucault, Darwin, CERN, information theory and more. After many months CJ was having a real paradigm shift. He was very bright and he was finding his intellect and his faith were beginning to work hand in hand. His face had changed from conceit (I would too if I had got 100% in my maths) to grace and humility.

I took him to Church with me. The first week everything was fine, next time I think somebody must have started thinking he was a regular...

Most unfortunately, while I had been talking with my friend, the Pastor of the church had is mind on church growth. To him that means building an extension for the price of a house, and guess who were supposed to “catch the vision” and pay for it?

Correct.

A few weeks later, we had a rather heavy handed letter based on the principle of sowing “30, 60, and 100 Fold” and asking for £30, £60 or £100 from us. As a family, we shook our collective heads sadly and threw it in the back of the fire. The Pastor has been reading some American nonsense about how, if you build a bigger building, you get a bigger congregation.

CJ got a letter too. He never came back. That was 25 years ago.

The moral of my story is that Christians sometimes do a pathetic job of representing Jesus. Sometimes people who have walked a long time in the faith are resilient to such foolishness, whilst impressionable young Christians get broken, confused and disappointed.

We have the privilege beyond all others, to represent the Lord Jesus Christ. Let’s do it well.
 





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#66
@Todd

Let me tell you a true story of church done badly. I was at college and I had an atheist friend CJ* in my lectures.

*not his real name...

Over time, CJ and I talked through many things. He had heard all the religious stuff before and was interested in Evolution, Quantum Physics and philosophy. We talked about meaning, deconstructionism, Foucault, Darwin, CERN, information theory and more. After many months CJ was having a real paradigm shift. He was very bright and he was finding his intellect and his faith were beginning to work hand in hand. His face had changed from conceit (I would too if I had got 100% in my maths) to grace and humility.

I took him to Church with me. The first week everything was fine, next time I think somebody must have started thinking he was a regular...

Most unfortunately, while I had been talking with my friend, the Pastor of the church had is mind on church growth. To him that means building an extension for the price of a house, and guess who were supposed to “catch the vision” and pay for it?

Correct.

A few weeks later, we had a rather heavy handed letter based on the principle of sowing “30, 60, and 100 Fold” and asking for £30, £60 or £100 from us. As a family, we shook our collective heads sadly and threw it in the back of the fire. The Pastor has been reading some American nonsense about how, if you build a bigger building, you get a bigger congregation.

CJ got a letter too. He never came back. That was 25 years ago.

The moral of my story is that Christians sometimes do a pathetic job of representing Jesus. Sometimes people who have walked a long time in the faith are resilient to such foolishness, whilst impressionable young Christians get broken, confused and disappointed.

We have the privilege beyond all others, to represent the Lord Jesus Christ. Let’s do it well.
Agreed, which is why I currently do not belong to a local congregation. I have yet to find a church that I can bring a visitor to without feeling like I will have to explain or make excuses for so many things I don't agree with. I could probably "deal with" or "ignore" alot of what I see if it weren't for the fact that I don't want to be embarassed by my church when someone I am sharing my faith with asks me where I "go to" church.
 





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#67
Agreed, which is why I currently do not belong to a local congregation. I have yet to find a church that I can bring a visitor to without feeling like I will have to explain or make excuses for so many things I don't agree with.
@Todd

Again I sympathise.

There is something in me that feels that mainstream Christianity is heading for compromise and apostasy fast. I am quite a “contrary” person and strenuously resist being told what to think/eat/do/etc.

On the other hand, I acknowledge that my desire not to be part of literally anything mainstream in a personality quirk that can have a deep root in pride. “I am unique, not one of many” resonates far more with me than it should.

Do I, in short, dare to introduce my friends to Christian fellowship that may not represent my preferred flavour, and leave growth and sanctification to somebody “bigger than you or I

Deep questions.
 





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#68
@Todd

Again I sympathise.

There is something in me that feels that mainstream Christianity is heading for compromise and apostasy fast. I am quite a “contrary” person and strenuously resist being told what to think/eat/do/etc.

On the other hand, I acknowledge that my desire not to be part of literally anything mainstream in a personality quirk that can have a deep root in pride. “I am unique, not one of many” resonates far more with me than it should.

Do I, in short, dare to introduce my friends to Christian fellowship that may not represent my preferred flavour, and leave growth and sanctification to somebody “bigger than you or I

Deep questions.
Deep indeed. I have no problem showing people what I believe and then telling them what mainstream Christianity teaches even showing them the supposed scripture refereneces to support the teaching and then letting the individual decide for themselves. Unfortunately I have not found too many churches that are okay with that and I don't ever want to be a wedge or source of division in a local body.
 





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#69
Really? I specifically stated I believe you are sincere in your beliefs and have faith in God. I have never questioned or accused your salvation of not being genuine. You have made clear that in your opinion I am not born again and accused me of not being saved or in fellowship with God. So who is lacking grace in this picture?

What exactly about my post would turn a weak Christian away from seeking God?
Hi Todd, As a born again believer, why do you think I was grieved in the Spirit that started out about the doctrine of the Trinity and your reply to me. You assumed that I was in the organized Church...God took me out of that organization and made me part of a living organism....His Body. I have suffered at the hands of the visible church as Christ suffered by the religious leaders of Israel. If your post grieved the Spirit in me, then it would only draw a weaker Christian that that is the state of the brotherhood, castigating each other. Paul went through much of the same thing. He was called of God. But after he had taught other the Truth, they began to believe others that were self righteous and jealous of Paul...and even John. He hated to brag about what He had experienced by Christ Himself as a teacher. But he was being second guessed by other that were prideful and self righteous. Read your post to me and tell me how they come across. Sometimes, without talking face to face, Post can be miscued. But the Truth is, The Lord Jesus Christ is the God of the OT.
In His Mercy and Grace,
Douglas Summers
 





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#70
Hi Todd, As a born again believer, why do you think I was grieved in the Spirit that started out about the doctrine of the Trinity and your reply to me. You assumed that I was in the organized Church...God took me out of that organization and made me part of a living organism....His Body. I have suffered at the hands of the visible church as Christ suffered by the religious leaders of Israel. If your post grieved the Spirit in me, then it would only draw a weaker Christian that that is the state of the brotherhood, castigating each other. Paul went through much of the same thing. He was called of God. But after he had taught other the Truth, they began to believe others that were self righteous and jealous of Paul...and even John. He hated to brag about what He had experienced by Christ Himself as a teacher. But he was being second guessed by other that were prideful and self righteous. Read your post to me and tell me how they come across. Sometimes, without talking face to face, Post can be miscued. But the Truth is, The Lord Jesus Christ is the God of the OT.
In His Mercy and Grace,
Douglas Summers
I have read your post multiple times and I am not really sure what the point is your trying to make, other than we disagree about the Trinity doctrine. Still not sure why rejecting the Trinity is turning a weaker Christian away from God other than the fact that other Christian's are judgemental and would make the weaker Christian feel unwanted if they questioned church dogma.

I started a thread awhile ago asking where the Bible explicitly says that believing Jesus is God is a commandment or is neccesarry for salvation. No one could give me a real answer. Even if the Trinity doctrine were true, it's not certainly something worth all the bickering, confusion, and condemnation that occurs becuase of it. It is not necessary to believe Jesus is God if one believes he is the risen Messiah, the lamb of God, the one that God has made both Lord and Christ. I.E. the doctrine itself does not bear fruit in the lives of anyone who clings to it. The only fruit the doctrine of the Trinity has ever bore is confusion, arguments and condemnation for those who reject it.
 





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#74
@Todd

Again I sympathise.

There is something in me that feels that mainstream Christianity is heading for compromise and apostasy fast. I am quite a “contrary” person and strenuously resist being told what to think/eat/do/etc.

On the other hand, I acknowledge that my desire not to be part of literally anything mainstream in a personality quirk that can have a deep root in pride. “I am unique, not one of many” resonates far more with me than it should.

Do I, in short, dare to introduce my friends to Christian fellowship that may not represent my preferred flavour, and leave growth and sanctification to somebody “bigger than you or I

Deep questions.
I agree and empathize with CJ above, too. I've heard of people leaving church and Christianity for good because they had a divorce and it was so frowned upon. And, yeah, when a church does a building fund I usually head for the door.

Yet, yet, despite how churches aren't always great, I won't give it up and really think lone wolf Christianity does more harm than good. Christians must interact with the body regularly. There should at least be a group of men, women or a coed married couples group fellowshipping, sharing the Word and breaking bread. At the very least, have that. Lone wolves or lone sheep rather, get taken out by wolves. The tempter comes and gets them. They backslide. They stop reading the Bible and stop praying or worse yet they do those things all alone and have no one to rub up against, no iron sharpening iron, no opposing or challenging viewpoints, and one can get stuck and conceited without it, lost in his or her own myopic little world.

I used to be attracted to lone sheep/wolf guys and realize if someone has very little friends and no fellowship, that's a huge ass red flag! We're not meant to walk this Christian road alone! If someone doesn't want friends or fellowship, maybe there's no real Christian love in that person's heart.

I'm not saying any of you are like that. But please, don't give up on the body. Christ died for the church, the true church. He loves her. Therefore, I must love her, too, and not give up and go sit in my introverted corner singing "Nobody knows the trouble I've seen." ;-)
 





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#75
Knowing the Savior and who He is..,The Truth is what we thrive on. Only God can forgive sin (only God!) And The Christ forgave sin. The Scriptures are there that prove it... But many are not looking for them, same as a thief does not look for a policeman. It bears fruit in me.
I know who the savior is without the Trinity. Your contention that only God can forgive sin is not correct. There is no blessing or spiritual fruit that you have by believing the Trinity that I do not have without believing the Trinity.
 





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#76
I agree and empathize with CJ above, too. I've heard of people leaving church and Christianity for good because they had a divorce and it was so frowned upon. And, yeah, when a church does a building fund I usually head for the door.

Yet, yet, despite how churches aren't always great, I won't give it up and really think lone wolf Christianity does more harm than good. Christians must interact with the body regularly. There should at least be a group of men, women or a coed married couples group fellowshipping, sharing the Word and breaking bread. At the very least, have that. Lone wolves or lone sheep rather, get taken out by wolves. The tempter comes and gets them. They backslide. They stop reading the Bible and stop praying or worse yet they do those things all alone and have no one to rub up against, no iron sharpening iron, no opposing or challenging viewpoints, and one can get stuck and conceited without it, lost in his or her own myopic little world.

I used to be attracted to lone sheep/wolf guys and realize if someone has very little friends and no fellowship, that's a huge ass red flag! We're not meant to walk this Christian road alone! If someone doesn't want friends or fellowship, maybe there's no real Christian love in that person's heart.

I'm not saying any of you are like that. But please, don't give up on the body. Christ died for the church, the true church. He loves her. Therefore, I must love her, too, and not give up and go sit in my introverted corner singing "Nobody knows the trouble I've seen." ;-)
I agree with this wholeheartedly. However organized religion with a building and a 501c3 designation is not the only valid expression of the body of Christ. I fellowship with other believers and have multiple relationships with other Christians were we are mutually accountable to each other. I still frequent “church services” to experience the anointing of corporate worship. I simply have not found a church that I am comfortable to being “yoked” with. Doesn’t mean I’ve stopped looking either though.
 





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#77
I know who the savior is without the Trinity. Your contention that only God can forgive sin is not correct. There is no blessing or spiritual fruit that you have by believing the Trinity that I do not have without believing the Trinity.
What you have is of your choosing and configuration of the gospel...It is yours, not mine...Mine was given to me freely by the grace of God by faith. Salvation is by faith alone in Christ. If your faith is in Christ (not by works) Then good. But you have much to learn about Christ. Tell me about what you think it is to be saved and eternal salvation.
 





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#78
What you have is of your choosing and configuration of the gospel...It is yours, not mine...Mine was given to me freely by the grace of God by faith. Salvation is by faith alone in Christ. If your faith is in Christ (not by works) Then good. But you have much to learn about Christ. Tell me about what you think it is to be saved and eternal salvation.
I could easily say the same thing to you. If I have time later I will start another thread with you to discuss this.