Trinitarian Controversies

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#42
If you love god and your neighbor with all your heart than heartfelt repentance is a natural unavoidable consequence of sin.
It is unfortunate that many Christians have forgotten what it was that drew them to repentance in the first place:-

Romans 2:4 (NKJV)

4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
 





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#43
It is unfortunate that many Christians have forgotten what it was that drew them to repentance in the first place:-

Romans 2:4 (NKJV)

4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
i may be missing something but i dont see how that contradicts what im saying
 





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#45
Also was going to add that a friend and brother of mine is a Oneness Pentecostal. I know he's my brother in the faith even though I took issue with the Oneness thing at first. Then I went to Hebrew Roots which is all about the oneness, but there were other things there not for me. I felt I lost track of Jesus and grace there. It was so great to read the Torah, yet I honestly missed the New Testament. It was brought in some, but like a side note or afterthought. Plus, to me, it seemed very constraining like boxing oneself in more than necessary.

My oneness brother is my brother. At first I didn't like his beliefs because to be in his church I'd have to get rebaptized (my first baptism took) and re-filled with the Holy Spirit according to their formulas. It was like I'd have to prove my salvation to them. More about the fear of man versus the fear of God. Nah. Don't need that.

I reconciled with my brother though and I know he loves Jesus with everything even if we do not see things the exact same way. Wouldn't life be boring if we were all the same? People pleasing, fear of man and controlling people want everything to fit neatly into categories and cause divisions. Like I can't fellowship with you because you're one of those Oneness Pentecostals or whatever. That's wrong. I'm so glad he and I still get along. I was worried about losing the friendship for disagreeing with him. Now I see more where he and others with the same beliefs are coming from. I'm still evaluating my take on things and believe belief isn't static but active.
 





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#46
Also was going to add that a friend and brother of mine is a Oneness Pentecostal. I know he's my brother in the faith even though I took issue with the Oneness thing at first. Then I went to Hebrew Roots which is all about the oneness, but there were other things there not for me. I felt I lost track of Jesus and grace there. It was so great to read the Torah, yet I honestly missed the New Testament. It was brought in some, but like a side note or afterthought. Plus, to me, it seemed very constraining like boxing oneself in more than necessary.

My oneness brother is my brother. At first I didn't like his beliefs because to be in his church I'd have to get rebaptized (my first baptism took) and re-filled with the Holy Spirit according to their formulas. It was like I'd have to prove my salvation to them. More about the fear of man versus the fear of God. Nah. Don't need that.

I reconciled with my brother though and I know he loves Jesus with everything even if we do not see things the exact same way. Wouldn't life be boring if we were all the same? People pleasing, fear of man and controlling people want everything to fit neatly into categories and cause divisions. Like I can't fellowship with you because you're one of those Oneness Pentecostals or whatever. That's wrong. I'm so glad he and I still get along. I was worried about losing the friendship for disagreeing with him. Now I see more where he and others with the same beliefs are coming from. I'm still evaluating my take on things and believe belief isn't static but active.
I think salvation is of primary importance, everything else takes a second place. The thing that occurs to me is that is one thing to be dragged from the sea by a helping hand, and another thing to know the person who has saved you. It’s subtle, but maybe a worthwhile observation.

I think you can be saved through appreciating John 3:16, but once you are, you are indwelt with the Holy Spirit. It is ultimately He, (and not necessarily others) who will “lead us in all truth”.
 





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DavidSon

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#47
@DavidSon

Behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I DO to inherit eternal life?"

It seems to me that this individual believes that certain holy, humane actions would be sufficient to cause him to inherit heaven....

He said to him,"What is written in the law? How do you read it?"

Jesus answers with a question which prompts him to answer from his frame of reference...

He answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with ALL your soul, with ALL your strength, and with ALL your mind; and your neighbor as YOURSELF."

The lawyer knows God’s standard, but as he looks back over his life, has he kept it?

He said to him, "You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live." -

The lawyer might leave this exchange either congratulating himself for his moral perfection or rather thoughtful, just as those who were without sin were invited to cast the first stone.

Jesus here simply answered him according to his question. The answer should have prompted anyone acquainted with their sinful condition to cry for mercy...
Wow you really don't get how simple the truth is. Your commentary on the exchange is completely unrelated to the point of the teaching. In the 2nd part of the ACTUAL dialogue the lawyer asks who is his neighbor and Jesus tells of the good Samaritan- and that the lawyer should do the same. Why is it so hard to believe this is the key to eternal life?

"The Kingdom" isn't some magical place from a fantasy novel. It's a becoming. The Kingdom of God is within us and without, and only He can bless us with the vision to see it.

Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
- MATT 22:35-40
 





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#48
Wow you really don't get how simple the truth is. Your commentary on the exchange is completely unrelated to the point of the teaching. In the 2nd part of the ACTUAL dialogue the lawyer asks who is his neighbor and Jesus tells of the good Samaritan- and that the lawyer should do the same. Why is it so hard to believe this is the key to eternal life?

"The Kingdom" isn't some magical place from a fantasy novel. It's a becoming. The Kingdom of God is within us and without, and only He can bless us with the vision to see it.

Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
- MATT 22:35-40
Matthew 19:16-22, What must I do to obtain eternal life?

by Matt Slick

Matt. 19:16-22, “And behold, one came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieved; for he was one who owned much property.” (The parallel passage is found in Mark 10:17-22 and Luke 18:18-23, listed at end of article).

This section of Scripture is important because Roman Catholics often use it to support their view that keeping the law of God is a necessary part of maintaining their right standing with God so they can be saved on the Day of Judgment. Unfortunately, they will use verses like this and ignore others that teach we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law (Romans 3:28). Let's take a look.

The person was asking what good works he must do to inherit eternal life (v. 16). He believed that his salvation was dependent upon his faith in God and his works of the Law. Jesus answered him according to his beliefs and quoted the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) and Lev. 19:18 (Love your neighbor as yourself). Notice that Jesus called Lev. 19:18 a commandment equal to the Ten Commandments. The man boasted that he was keeping all these laws. Was he? As is typical with us all, we like to think we are doing well before God when in reality we aren't. Jesus showed the man (and us) that he was failing to keep the Law (don't judge by your own standard, judge by God's). Jesus told the man to sell his possessions and give it to the poor (i.e., love your neighbor as yourself) and then follow Him. The man failed to do this (v. 22). Jesus knew he wasn't keeping the Law and showed the man his failure. His faith and works of the Law could not save him because he could not keep it. Don't be like the boastful man who is good in his own eyes and estimation of keeping the Law.

So, for all who want to do good works to obtain eternal life, they are obligated to keep the Law. But no one can, and that is the point. No one can. This is why James teaches in James 2:10, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” Paul says in Gal. 3:10, “For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.'” This further explains why we have Paul teaching us in Romans 3:28 that we are "justified by faith apart from the works of the Law" (including works done in love) because no one is able to keep the law perfectly as James 2:10 and Gal. 3:10 require. Therefore, Matt. 19:16-22 isn’t teaching that faith and good works save us. Instead, it is teaching that if you want to be justified by faith and works (even works of love), you must keep the Law perfectly. You can’t. Therefore, the Law condemns you.

What is the solution?

The solution to the problem of the law is to trust in Jesus by faith alone--not by faith in your works. The gospel message is that Jesus Christ, who is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14; Colossians 2:9), fulfilled the law perfectly and never sinned (1 Peter 2:22). He fulfilled the Old Testament requirements of being a proper sacrifice for our sins (Lev. 17:11; Deut. 17:1; John 19:36). Jesus did everything that is necessary when he fulfilled the Law. Therefore, we are justified without the works of the law (Rom. 3:28) and must put our faith and trust in what Christ did (Rom. 4:5; 5:1).

Parallel Verses

Mark 10:17-22, "And as He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and began asking Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 “You know the commandments, ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” 20 And he said to Him, “Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up.” 21 And looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But at these words his face fell, and he went away grieved, for he was one who owned much property."
Luke 18:18-23, "And a certain ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 20 “You know the commandments, ‘Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.’” 21 And he said, “All these things I have kept from my youth.” 22 And when Jesus heard this, He said to him, “One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess, and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 23 But when he had heard these things, he became very sad; for he was extremely rich."

https://carm.org/what-must-i-do-to-obtain-eternal-life
 





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#49
I don't know about you, but I don't have two other seperate people living in my .[/
Where does it say anything about sharing the title of God? It says "the name of"
I have been given the name of my father. Does not make me my father. Because of his obedience Jesus was given the name above all names. If Jesus was pre-existant as God, he would not have need to be given anything, as he would have already been and already have everything he needed. The fact that Jesus was "given the name" says alot.
You are so lost in your carnal teaching that you hinder the Gospel of God and who He is. If you do not know who He is, Then you can not possibly worship Him. Your pride of knowledge "so called" is right in with the visible Church (CINO). You must be born again Todd, with out the Spirit, you are none of His, And your own explanations of the Scriptures will not make it so. You do not join the Church, it is a calling...Only Christ adds to His body (The Church). We know Him who we worship. We know Him personally.
 





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#50
You are so lost in your carnal teaching that you hinder the Gospel of God and who He is. If you do not know who He is, Then you can not possibly worship Him. Your pride of knowledge "so called" is right in with the visible Church (CINO). You must be born again Todd, with out the Spirit, you are none of His, And your own explanations of the Scriptures will not make it so. You do not join the Church, it is a calling...Only Christ adds to His body (The Church). We know Him who we worship. We know Him personally.
I started typing a response to this but decided it wasn't worth it. I don't need to defend myself to you. There is nothing practical in this post for anyone to apply to their lives....it's just dogmatic, abstract drivel. If you want to set aside the judgemental condemnation and have an actual discussion let me know.
 





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#51
@DavidSon

I was considering your comments and something very clearly came to me:-

Romans 3:23 King James Version (KJV)

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Lest anyone think that this was just Paul’s view, what of the incident with the woman caught in adultery?

John 8

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

Given that the Law is beautiful, but nobody could keep it, we are left with real problems!!!

Someone recorded a video after having had a peculiar dream that illustrated the Law and grace...

 





DavidSon

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#52
@DavidSon

I was considering your comments and something very clearly came to me:-

Romans 3:23 King James Version (KJV)

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Lest anyone think that this was just Paul’s view, what of the incident with the woman caught in adultery?

John 8

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

Given that the Law is beautiful, but nobody could keep it, we are left with real problems!!!

Someone recorded a video after having had a peculiar dream that illustrated the Law and grace...

??? You seem to have a problem staying on topic. If you want to tag me then why not a basic reply to what I said. I'm showing you your pagan theories about the Trinity have little to do with salvation or the works of God. Jesus preached LOVE in both instances I sited. These are the keys to ETERNAL LIFE. Now you're off on a tangent about laws?
 





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#53
??? You seem to have a problem staying on topic. If you want to tag me then why not a basic reply to what I said. I'm showing you your pagan theories about the Trinity have little to do with salvation or the works of God. Jesus preached LOVE in both instances I sited. These are the keys to ETERNAL LIFE. Now you're off on a tangent about laws?
Lol - its my thread ;-) only joking - the conversation has deviated into the question of law and grace and for that reason I tried to answer along those lines...

So back to topic... still an Ebonite? ;)
 





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#54
I started typing a response to this but decided it wasn't worth it. I don't need to defend myself to you. There is nothing practical in this post for anyone to apply to their lives....it's just dogmatic, abstract drivel. If you want to set aside the judgemental condemnation and have an actual discussion let me know.
That was not a discussion, It was the Gospel Truth. You will have to give an account to Christ for what you teach, just as I will.
 





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#55
Matthew 19:16-22, What must I do to obtain eternal life?

by Matt Slick
Sorry, I couldn't get past Matt Slick....
That was not a discussion, It was the Gospel Truth. You will have to give an account to Christ for what you teach, just as I will.
In case you weren’t aware this is a discussion forum, not your personal pulpit. I have no problem giving account what I teach. I don’t teach or judge others here. I simply discuss and give evidence for what I personally believe. I have no fear of God correcting my understanding in the ages to come.
 





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#56
I have no fear of God correcting my understanding in the ages to come.
And therein lies the problem Todd. You have no fear of God. And it's YOUR understanding...Yet when someone explains to you the Truth, You deny it. The Holy Spirit teaches the Truth. What is so hard about that...unless you do not believe it? Teacher / pastor is my calling and election. I did not choose it. There is no born again believer that is not gifted through the Spirit. Ask the Lord to show you by prayer. In the beginning was God, And the Word (logos) was with God, and the Word (logos) was God. And everything that was made, was made by Him, and there is nothing that was made that was not made by Him. He is called Emanuel, (God with us) Jesus is The God of the OT (1 Cor. 10:1-5). To understand it, you must love the Lord....not just curious, For to know Him is to love Him and His commandment is to Love the brethren as He has loved us. And the fellowship between the brethren and the Lord is so close that when His own are wrongly persecuted, He feels their pain and sorrow also. I only wish you peace in knowing the fellowship of the Savior.
 





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#57
And therein lies the problem Todd. You have no fear of God. And it's YOUR understanding...Yet when someone explains to you the Truth, You deny it. The Holy Spirit teaches the Truth. What is so hard about that...unless you do not believe it? Teacher / pastor is my calling and election. I did not choose it. There is no born again believer that is not gifted through the Spirit. Ask the Lord to show you by prayer. In the beginning was God, And the Word (logos) was with God, and the Word (logos) was God. And everything that was made, was made by Him, and there is nothing that was made that was not made by Him. He is called Emanuel, (God with us) Jesus is The God of the OT (1 Cor. 10:1-5). To understand it, you must love the Lord....not just curious, For to know Him is to love Him and His commandment is to Love the brethren as He has loved us. And the fellowship between the brethren and the Lord is so close that when His own are wrongly persecuted, He feels their pain and sorrow also. I only wish you peace in knowing the fellowship of the Savior.
You really think I haven’t prayed and asked God to show me truth? I used the believe the same dogma of the church that you spout out. There is much you have right and I have no doubt about your faith in God and your sincerity. The longer you seek God and serve him the more you will realize what you believe is not really what the Bible says but you will also realize that dogma and doctrine mean little if it doesn’t actually produce fruit in your life. The Bible says taste and see the lord is good. For 25 years I tasted what the organized church was serving. A lot of it was good but there was also plenty that was not. I have tasted things that are not well know in the organized Church and often bring the condemnation and judgment of others such as yourself. However when I take survey of the fruit in my life that is the result of my beliefs that is the true test. I know my redeemer and my Lord. I know the peace that surpasses all understanding.

Thank you for your concern. When you can show me how a different belief or doctrine is able to produce fruit in my life I will listen and be opened minded. Until then your abstract, dogma filled drivel is of little use to me.
 





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#58
You really think I haven’t prayed and asked God to show me truth? I used the believe the same dogma of the church that you spout out. There is much you have right and I have no doubt about your faith in God and your sincerity. The longer you seek God and serve him the more you will realize what you believe is not really what the Bible says but you will also realize that dogma and doctrine mean little if it doesn’t actually produce fruit in your life. The Bible says taste and see the lord is good. For 25 years I tasted what the organized church was serving. A lot of it was good but there was also plenty that was not. I have tasted things that are not well know in the organized Church and often bring the condemnation and judgment of others such as yourself. However when I take survey of the fruit in my life that is the result of my beliefs that is the true test. I know my redeemer and my Lord. I know the peace that surpasses all understanding.

Thank you for your concern. When you can show me how a different belief or doctrine is able to produce fruit in my life I will listen and be opened minded. Until then your abstract, dogma filled drivel is of little use to me.
I don't agree with everything Douglass says (just his interpretation Genesis 6, tbh), but that "drivel" he was "spouting" up there isn't dogma-- it's pretty much word for word New Testament.
 





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#59
I don't agree with everything Douglass says (just his interpretation Genesis 6, tbh), but that "drivel" he was "spouting" up there isn't dogma-- it's pretty much word for word New Testament.
I call it drivel in that what he keeps posting (while it may technically be true) is cliche “Christianese” statements, that have very little to no practical application for someone not already versed in said “Christianese”.
 





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#60
For 25 years I tasted what the organized church was serving. A lot of it was good but there was also plenty that was not.
This point is not necessarily directed at you @Todd but as you bring this point up, I think it is an interesting one to explore...

The power of the Hegelian dialectic on our doctrinal positions.

This is not to say that for the most part, Christians read the Bible for themselves and can clearly understand the core doctrines of the faith, but where certain doctrines are more complex and not immediately clear, I suspect something else can occur...

On a purely human level, the power of a persuasive positive individual, full of grace and love speaking in favour of a particular view or, perhaps to an even greater extent, an unappealing, rude, graceless person badgering and bullying their opposing point can make it feel emotionally that they must be in the wrong.

I am not saying that we all do this to the same extent, but I have to admit that my own hardness of heart to certain ideas, and receptivity to others is not invulnerable from consideration of the person espousing them.

P.s. because we are emotional beings and not just doctrinal computers, we do well to realise the power of psychological pulls and pushes on the development of ideas...
 





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