Trinitarian Controversies

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#21
Why would God allow people to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit if it wasn’t meaningful? He doesn’t share His title of God lightly does He?
Where does it say anything about sharing the title of God? It says "the name of"
I have been given the name of my father. Does not make me my father. Because of his obedience Jesus was given the name above all names. If Jesus was pre-existant as God, he would not have need to be given anything, as he would have already been and already have everything he needed. The fact that Jesus was "given the name" says alot.
 





Lisa

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#22
Where does it say anything about sharing the title of God? It says "the name of"
I have been given the name of my father. Does not make me my father. Because of his obedience Jesus was given the name above all names. If Jesus was pre-existant as God, he would not have need to be given anything, as he would have already been and already have everything he needed. The fact that Jesus was "given the name" says alot.
Baptism is in the name of God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Three equal parts, one God.
 





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#23
Adoptionism, or Dynamic Monarchianism

Adoptionism, or Dynamic Monarchianism, also emphasizes the unity of God, but denies that the Son is also the eternal God. Rather, it teaches that Jesus, the man, because of His sinless devotion to God, was “adopted” by God as His Son and hence elevated to the level of deity. This occurred either at the time of His baptism or, according to some teachers, at His ascension. While seen as divine, Jesus is not recognized as having equality with the Father. Under some iterations of this teaching, Jesus is said to have been possessed by the “Christ force,” a spiritual essence that was separate from Him as a man and entered Him at His baptism.

There have been three major occurrences of Adoptionism in church history. The earliest known Adoptionist teacher was Theodotus of Byzantium in the second century. The second century work, Shepherd of Hermas, which was accorded near-canonical status in certain parts of the church, also promoted Adoptionist ideas[3]. Later resurgences of Adoptionist teaching occurred in the eighth and twelfth centuries A.D.

In modern times, ideas similar to those of Adoptionism have been advanced in many sectors of the New Age movement, particularly the teaching that Jesus was a mere human until the “Christ” came upon Him as an external force. Some New Age proponents teach that the same deifying power is available to all humans and that man’s spiritual quest should be for such enlightenment.

Another manifestation of Adoptionism appeared among the Socinians of the 16th century A.D., who denied the preexistence of Jesus and the Trinity. Their belief was a forerunner of such groups as the modern Unitarians and the Christadelphians[4].
I find this particular variant interesting as it is an important part of Ebonism as brought up by @DavidSon ...

It is worth noting that the doctrine of Adoptionism is one that comes through in the Gospel of Mark in the Codex Sinaiticus.

But...

 





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#26
Where does it say anything about sharing the title of God? It says "the name of"
I have been given the name of my father. Does not make me my father. Because of his obedience Jesus was given the name above all names. If Jesus was pre-existant as God, he would not have need to be given anything, as he would have already been and already have everything he needed. The fact that Jesus was "given the name" says alot.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word(a), and the Word was with God (b), and the Word was God (c).

Basic algebra:
if a = b, and b= c, then a= c.

In John Chapter 1 Jesus is shown to be the Word. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1&version=KJV
 





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#27
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word(a), and the Word was with God (b), and the Word was God (c).

Basic algebra:
if a = b, and b= c, then a= c.

In John Chapter 1 Jesus is shown to be the Word. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1&version=KJV
Another example of extreme literalism gone amuck in fundamentalism.

If we apply the same logic and reasoning you have used here then we can all claim to be a member of the "Godhead"
2 Corinthians 3:2-3
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

You are a living epistle, written by the Spirit of the living God. Paul is saying in a metaphorical way that you also are the word of God. Does that make you a member of the Trinitarian God?
 





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#28
I read somewhere a good comparison to the Trinity: time

Time is 1 unit, but consists of 3 parts. Past, present, and future. There are 2 you can’t see(past and future), and 1 you can see(present).

You can see the Son, but you can’t see the Father & Set-Apart Spirit
 





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#30
I read somewhere a good comparison to the Trinity: time

Time is 1 unit, but consists of 3 parts. Past, present, and future. There are 2 you can’t see(past and future), and 1 you can see(present).

You can see the Son, but you can’t see the Father & Set-Apart Spirit
I don't understand this analogy. I'm assuming you don't mean you can literally see the son with your physical eyes. Since Trinitarian Christian's believe they are filled with the Holy Spirit in the present tense, I'm not sure how you can say I can't "see" the Holy Spirit any more or less than I can "see" the Son?
 





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#31
I read somewhere a good comparison to the Trinity: time

Time is 1 unit, but consists of 3 parts. Past, present, and future. There are 2 you can’t see(past and future), and 1 you can see(present).

You can see the Son, but you can’t see the Father & Set-Apart Spirit
We have to look no further than ourselves.....Man is triune (Body, spirit and soul) 1 Thes. 5:23.
 





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#35
The fact that over 2000 years have passed and there is still controversy and so much confusion about the Trinity doctrine is evidence enough for me to conclude that at worst the Trinity doctrine is the invention of man and not at all biblical or at best it's just not important for salvation or fellowship with God. If it were that crucial the bible would contain clear, explicit teaching about it and a command or exhortation to believe the doctrine. I'd rather choose to accept it's not important than have to give answer to why I believed and defended a doctrine that was not of God, when I stand before him.

I Cor 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints
Very true @Todd !

My reaction to reading the Greco-Roman disputes over the nature of God and Christ is that they were all out of their minds. Lost in the emptiness of their imagination. The varied theories and theology are just pagan, philosophical head games. There's no relation to the ministry of Jesus and simple thankfulness to God the Father- instead it's layers of abstract, Greek philosophical malarkey. Most of these frauds wouldn't last 5 minutes in the presence of Jesus the Christ.

There are intelligent souls who's connection to faith in the Almighty might be through theological understanding. The only problem is when these big-headed theorists try to force their contrivances onto humble followers of God. They can't enter the gates of Heaven and they'll block your way as well.

Behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
He said to him,"What is written in the law? How do you read it?"
He answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself."
He said to him, "You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live."
- LUKE 10:25-28
 





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#36
@DavidSon

Behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I DO to inherit eternal life?"

It seems to me that this individual believes that certain holy, humane actions would be sufficient to cause him to inherit heaven....

He said to him,"What is written in the law? How do you read it?"

Jesus answers with a question which prompts him to answer from his frame of reference...

He answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with ALL your soul, with ALL your strength, and with ALL your mind; and your neighbor as YOURSELF."

The lawyer knows God’s standard, but as he looks back over his life, has he kept it?

He said to him, "You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live." -

The lawyer might leave this exchange either congratulating himself for his moral perfection or rather thoughtful, just as those who were without sin were invited to cast the first stone.

Jesus here simply answered him according to his question. The answer should have prompted anyone acquainted with their sinful condition to cry for mercy...
 





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#38
Sin does not exclude love. You can love as commanded and still sin. Many of you seem to focus on the wrong things imo
Sin was the barrier, Jesus is the door to restored relationship with God. That relationship is the thing that changes everything else, not endless preoccupation with our own sin. 1 John 1:9
 





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#39
Sin was the barrier, Jesus is the door to restored relationship with God. That relationship is the thing that changes everything else, not endless preoccupation with our own sin. 1 John 1:9
Yes but Jesus already covered our sin. That was his whole purpose. If you have love for god and love for your neighbor you are naturally going to be sorry for your sins. There’s no need to complicate this any further. That love doesnt stop you from sinning but it does reduce it greatly and make you remorseful when you do.
 





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#40
Yes but Jesus already covered our sin. That was his whole purpose. If you have love for god and love for your neighbor you are naturally going to be sorry for your sins. There’s no need to complicate this any further. That love doesnt stop you from sinning but it does reduce it greatly and make you remorseful when you do.
What of heartfelt repentance though? It seems that without it, we cannot enter the Kingdom...