To those who say you need to be "born again" to understand Christianity:

[DavidSon]

So this thread is about the discussion of whether or not you need to be born again to understand Christianity. No, no you do not because God can teach you, I mean he taught me, THEN I got baptized and to this day I'm still learning. Worry not, he is your teacher.

But here's what I don't understand...how are you going to open up this discussion and then proceed to have your first post be about your rants of your view on the majority of things apparently wrong with Christianity? How do you go from curiosity to "I'm gonna insult Christianity real quick"? You could say those are your views, but knowing of you and your previous posts...you're one to mock Christians so please answer this.

This was addressed to @Infinityloop but if I may respond-

The arguments aren't made to mock Jesus. More rightly these are important questions of hermeneutics (interpretation of wisdom literature), ontology, (the study of being), logic, theology (religious belief), epistemology (study of knowledge), etc. etc. Most of us aren't familiar with every branch of classical philosophy (love of wisdom) but there are basic tools a person wanting to reason about "spirituality" should be able to utilize .

Why is it 6 pages later there's so few intelligent replies to the original post other than personal attacks or deflections?

Several of us are trying to defend the memory of Jesus from the hypocritical, egotistical religion that was built up around the man. There is much to admire in the wisdom and ascetic life of Jesus and other Essenes like John the Baptist. There are also characteristics of Eastern Christianity and the tradition of monastic orders that offer authentic spiritual insight.

But I refuse to be bullied by religious charlatans like Tim LaHay (founder of the CNP), Tertullian, John Darby, Martin Luther, John Wesley, Billy Graham, Chuck Missler, etc.- continuous fakes who have nothing in common with Jesus the Righteous Teacher. Does anyone else wonder why they all shave their ugly faces? Lol They invented this religion. Christianity is led today by the same corporate frauds who instituted human slavery and global colonization the last 1500 years. 88% of the warmongering US Congress is "Christian". The devil himself Mike Pompeo goes to your church! How is it possible sexual abuse could be this rampant in the Southern Baptist and Roman Church?

There is a deep-seeded rot within Christianity and the pretenders who claim to speak for God and Jesus. I believe the ideological confusion within their man-made religion is the root of the problem, and it will be called out.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

This was addressed to @Infinityloop but if I may respond-

The arguments aren't made to mock Jesus. More rightly these are important questions of hermeneutics (interpretation of wisdom literature), ontology, (the study of being), logic, theology (religious belief), epistemology (study of knowledge), etc. etc. Most of us aren't familiar with every branch of classical philosophy (love of wisdom) but there are basic tools a person wanting to reason about "spirituality" should be able to utilize .

Why is it 6 pages later there's so few intelligent replies to the original post other than personal attacks or deflections?

Several of us are trying to defend the memory of Jesus from the hypocritical, egotistical religion that was built up around the man. There is much to admire in the wisdom and ascetic life of Jesus and other Essenes like John the Baptist. There are also characteristics of Eastern Christianity and the tradition of monastic orders that offer authentic spiritual insight.

But I refuse to be bullied by religious charlatans like Tim LaHay (founder of the CNP), Tertullian, John Darby, Martin Luther, John Wesley, Billy Graham, Chuck Missler, etc.- continuous fakes who have nothing in common with Jesus the Righteous Teacher. Does anyone else wonder why they all shave their ugly faces? Lol They invented this religion. Christianity is led today by the same corporate frauds who instituted human slavery and global colonization the last 1500 years. 88% of the warmongering US Congress is "Christian". The devil himself Mike Pompeo goes to your church! How is it possible sexual abuse could be this rampant in the Southern Baptist and Roman Church?

There is a deep-seeded rot within Christianity and the pretenders who claim to speak for God and Jesus. I believe the ideological confusion within their man-made religion is the root of the problem, and it will be called out.

Well, @DavidSon - we appear to live at a significant juncture in human history, which may yet have some eschatological surprises.

The Lord knows his own (my sheep hear my voice) and I believe that everything that is now hidden will be made known.

 

[DavidSon]

Well, @DavidSon - we appear to live at a significant juncture in human history, which may yet have some eschatological surprises.

The Lord knows his own (my sheep hear my voice) and I believe that everything that is now hidden will be made known.

Significant juncture? Only God knows. Every generation thinks they're the pinnacle (though in metaphysical terms they're right). I'd argue the 20th century was more significant than where we're at now.

Anyways that's another topic.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Significant juncture? Only God knows. Every generation thinks they're the pinnacle (though in metaphysical terms they're right). I'd argue the 20th century was more significant than where we're at now.

Anyways that's another topic.

It is. There is a time to go over ABCs and a time to discern the season in which we are living.

Do the “elites” believe the Rapture is imminent?

With the whole world apparently on lock down, with various degrees of soft or hard martial law and with public gatherings restricted, I had been wondering if this present crisis might not have been orchestrated to minimize the impact of another global “Black Swan” event the elites may well have...

www.vigilantcitizenforums.com

 

[Infinityloop]

It is. There is a time to go over ABCs and a time to discern the season in which we are living.

Do the “elites” believe the Rapture is imminent?

With the whole world apparently on lock down, with various degrees of soft or hard martial law and with public gatherings restricted, I had been wondering if this present crisis might not have been orchestrated to minimize the impact of another global “Black Swan” event the elites may well have...

www.vigilantcitizenforums.com

You Chilaist heretics just don't seem to get it.

But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
Matthew 24:36

 

[shankara]

I might go to great lengths to persuade people in general that @Infinityloop ‘s dad was a drag queen. I might even be able to sway a few people who didn’t know either of them on the idea, but as far as my ideas having any traction with him, it should be fairly obvious that he wouldn’t really be persuaded!!!

@Infinityloop is working of the assumption that all Christians are playing a global game of “let’s pretend”, whilst trying to grow the born again club. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I don't think you are pretending of affected, rather you are fooling yourselves. You may have these strong experiences and emotions around your beliefs, even have "mystical experiences" which make you deeply convinced that they are true. But all that is just monkey mind.

Though this isn't unique to Christianity...

By the way, I'm shocked to hear that @Infinityloop's father is a drag queen, I won't be listening to anything whatsoever that he says in future.

 

[TokiEl]

Everytime I read one of Tokiel's posts I lose a brain cell because of how nonsensical and ridiculous they are.

Tokiel, is Jesus the literal son of the Father?

I am TokiEl... and you're not twat.

That is my next signature.


What's that ? Are you talking to me ?

Are you communicating with me ?

Do you know who i am ?


I am TokiEl... and you're not twat. L0L

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

You Chilaist heretics just don't seem to get it.

But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
Matthew 24:36

1 Thessalonians 5

The Day of the Lord

1But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,but let us watch and be sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

11Therefore edify one another, just as you also are doing.

 

[Aero]

I don't think you are pretending of affected, rather you are fooling yourselves. You may have these strong experiences and emotions around your beliefs, even have "mystical experiences" which make you deeply convinced that they are true. But all that is just monkey mind.

Though this isn't unique to Christianity...

By the way, I'm shocked to hear that @Infinityloop's father is a drag queen, I won't be listening to anything whatsoever that he says in future.

Deeply convinced and monkey brain are two odd statements to put together. Plus as you confirmed, the same can be said about pretty much anyone of faith. So what's the point? Is this another setup of a zero-sum game?

Bear with me, because I'm still far from my Ph.D. in philosophy. But it seems like we are obsessing over details that seem to be inconsequential. Now, I'm all for correcting logical mistakes, I just think it's important to state most of the logical errors we see are unintended.

Take Socrates for example. He could hold two opposing ideas in his head that were both true. That he was wise, and ignorant at the same time. The point is his errors, or self-described ignorance doesn't sap him of all his credibility. I just get the feeling that Christians have to be perfect, and crystal clear or else we are all considered monkey brained.

 

[Kung Fu]

I am TokiEl... and you're not twat.

That is my next signature.


What's that ? Are you talking to me ?

Are you communicating with me ?

Do you know who i am ?


I am TokiEl... and you're not twat. L0L

If you can't answer my question that's okay. No need to act all crazy.

 

[FaithAndStrength]

This was addressed to @Infinityloop but if I may respond-

The arguments aren't made to mock Jesus. More rightly these are important questions of hermeneutics (interpretation of wisdom literature), ontology, (the study of being), logic, theology (religious belief), epistemology (study of knowledge), etc. etc. Most of us aren't familiar with every branch of classical philosophy (love of wisdom) but there are basic tools a person wanting to reason about "spirituality" should be able to utilize .

Why is it 6 pages later there's so few intelligent replies to the original post other than personal attacks or deflections?

Several of us are trying to defend the memory of Jesus from the hypocritical, egotistical religion that was built up around the man. There is much to admire in the wisdom and ascetic life of Jesus and other Essenes like John the Baptist. There are also characteristics of Eastern Christianity and the tradition of monastic orders that offer authentic spiritual insight.

But I refuse to be bullied by religious charlatans like Tim LaHay (founder of the CNP), Tertullian, John Darby, Martin Luther, John Wesley, Billy Graham, Chuck Missler, etc.- continuous fakes who have nothing in common with Jesus the Righteous Teacher. Does anyone else wonder why they all shave their ugly faces? Lol They invented this religion. Christianity is led today by the same corporate frauds who instituted human slavery and global colonization the last 1500 years. 88% of the warmongering US Congress is "Christian". The devil himself Mike Pompeo goes to your church! How is it possible sexual abuse could be this rampant in the Southern Baptist and Roman Church?

There is a deep-seeded rot within Christianity and the pretenders who claim to speak for God and Jesus. I believe the ideological confusion within their man-made religion is the root of the problem, and it will be called out.

Ah, I see your perspective. Still though, Infinity didn't have to start off with that unnecessary rant when the original discussion was planned to be about something else. If you have seen his previous posts about Christianity in other threads, you'd feel the same way. He's just one of those people with a curiosity of Christianity but at the same time, he just tries so hard to find anything negative, see it the wrong way, use his understanding, and then tell it to us which isn't good at all.

Regarding the fact there's many things wrong with Christianity- you're right, it's mans fault because there's even lukewarm/cold Christians and Christians who use their own understanding to come to the wrong conclusion for us thus leaving us unsure. Those are they we shouldn't communicate with. When it comes to them, we ask God instead because God said among his people, we can correct, and teach each other. Actually this goes for those outside of Christianity too, but if you want to learn about something, it's best you ask God. Yes, you're correct, there's even many fallen Churches.

Personally, when it comes to wanting to know something, I can't trust others to give me the answer because look at how the world is today. I either ask my family of whom God blessed with infinite amounts of wisdom and knowledge especially because I'm the youngest, (15 yrs old) so they're more experienced and such, or I just ask God and wait patiently for the answer.

 

[shankara]

Deeply convinced and monkey brain are two odd statements to put together. Plus as you confirmed, the same can be said about pretty much anyone of faith. So what's the point? Is this another setup of a zero-sum game?

Bear with me, because I'm still far from my Ph.D. in philosophy. But it seems like we are obsessing over details that seem to be inconsequential. Now, I'm all for correcting logical mistakes, I just think it's important to state most of the logical errors we see are unintended.

Take Socrates for example. He could hold two opposing ideas in his head that were both true. That he was wise, and ignorant at the same time. The point is his errors, or self-described ignorance doesn't sap him of all his credibility. I just get the feeling that Christians have to be perfect, and crystal clear or else we are all considered monkey brained.

Not monkey brain, monkey mind. This is a Zen term used to describe the chaotic state of mind which needs to be tamed and harnessed through meditation. If we don't have any stillness then we can't see how our conditioned mind is keeping us trapped in all kinds of quite absurd ways of thinking.

 

[TokiEl]

If you can't answer my question that's okay. No need to act all crazy.

What was the answer ?

Jesus this and Father that and Holy ghost and God and angels and... this is too much for you.

It's incomprehensible... you will only melt trying to make sense of it.

Trust me. L0L

 

[TokiEl]

Who understands God ?

Dan 12 9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

Only those who are wise that is not wicked will understand God.


In other words those who are wicked will never ever understand God.

 

[Aero]

Not monkey brain, monkey mind. This is a Zen term used to describe the chaotic state of mind which needs to be tamed and harnessed through meditation. If we don't have any stillness then we can't see how our conditioned mind is keeping us trapped in all kinds of quite absurd ways of thinking.

I'm somewhat familiar with Zen terms. But I appreciate the clarification. And I'm still interested in where you are going with this.

I'm at work atm so I will just pose a simple question to you. Relating to your previous post, isn't meditation considered a mystical experience? Like are you not opening your third eye?

 

[Surley]

If you're talking about me, no I love Jesus dearly, I have no problems with my Prophet. It clearly tells a lot about you when you have to strawman the conversation to being about Jesus himself rather than being about the false religion of "Christianity" - better known as Newage neo-Paulianism.
[/QUOT

I'm sorry i didnt mean to straw whatever, i just read the thread and it said it was for believers that believe you have to be born again to understand Christianity. so I looked and then there was a 40 point list as to why Christianity is wrong. So yeah I guess i kinda felt baited... Seems like there are a lot of people who want to prove their point.. I'm not about arguing...I do and always will share my faith..I know in the world right now that the church is extremely divided in what people believe.Thats really sad it wasn't meant to be that way.The bible said there would be people always learning and not coming to the knowledge of the TRUTH. I think a lot of people over think salvation... Its suppose to be simple. so simple that a small child can understand it.And I really don't think the bible teaches we are suppose to argue about it. So glad to hear you Love the Lord.Hope to get to meet you when HE comes!

 

[shankara]

I'm somewhat familiar with Zen terms. But I appreciate the clarification. And I'm still interested in where you are going with this.

I'm at work atm so I will just pose a simple question to you. Relating to your previous post, isn't meditation considered a mystical experience? Like are you not opening your third eye?

Generally speaking in Buddhism meditation falls into two categories, calm abiding and analytical meditation. One supports the other. The former aims to tame the chaotic cacophony of discursive thoughts, the latter aims to develop insight into reality by contemplating various subjects, in Tibetan Buddhism particularly the philosophical view of the Middle Way.

There is no attempt to contact any external god or deity, in the Vajrayana we may engage in visualizing ourselves as a tantric deity or visualizing a deity in front of us, but really the deities are not external forces, rather they are representations of enlightened psychological qualities. There are also meditations on the bodies subtle winds, but there isn't anything mystical about this, it is simply part of the process of taming the crazy discursive samsaric mind.

Though yes it is possible for some practitioners to have visions, I would say that even these should be interpreted as part of dependent arising and as potentially deceptive. Meditation is not the striving to have some kind of mystical experience, rather it is facing up to the mind and reality as it is without self-deception.

 

[Tidal]

Why is it 6 pages later there's so few intelligent replies to the original post..

Well the original post was done in "blunderbuss style ", namely it fired 40 points about Christianity at us all at once, so regrettfully people don't have the time to sort out and answer each individual point.
Personally I like to use the "sniper" style of posting where people use carefully-aimed single posts to present each point one at a time in separate posts for analysis..
As a great prophet once said-

"This is this"

 

[Aero]

Generally speaking in Buddhism meditation falls into two categories, calm abiding and analytical meditation. One supports the other. The former aims to tame the chaotic cacophony of discursive thoughts, the latter aims to develop insight into reality by contemplating various subjects, in Tibetan Buddhism particularly the philosophical view of the Middle Way.

There is no attempt to contact any external god or deity, in the Vajrayana we may engage in visualizing ourselves as a tantric deity or visualizing a deity in front of us, but really the deities are not external forces, rather they are representations of enlightened psychological qualities. There are also meditations on the bodies subtle winds, but there isn't anything mystical about this, it is simply part of the process of taming the crazy discursive samsaric mind.

Though yes it is possible for some practitioners to have visions, I would say that even these should be interpreted as part of dependent arising and as potentially deceptive. Meditation is not the striving to have some kind of mystical experience, rather it is facing up to the mind and reality as it is without self-deception.

That's a pretty good explanation. The problem is some of the points you raise about meditation are the exact definition of what a "mystical experience" is. In essence, we are talking about the same things.

The concept of "mystical experience" has influenced the understanding of mysticism as a distinctive experience which supplies knowledge of a transcendental reality, cosmic unity, or ultimate truths.

As you say, facing up to the mind and reality without self-deception would be considered an "ultimate truth". Also, I don't strive to open up my third eye either. It just happens through some internal process I don't fully understand.

 

[shankara]

That's a pretty good explanation. The problem is some of the points you raise about meditation are the exact definition of what a "mystical experience" is. In essence, we are talking about the same things.

The concept of "mystical experience" has influenced the understanding of mysticism as a distinctive experience which supplies knowledge of a transcendental reality, cosmic unity, or ultimate truths.

As you say, facing up to the mind and reality without self-deception would be considered an "ultimate truth". Also, I don't strive to open up my third eye either. It just happens through some internal process I don't fully understand.

Yeah so I guess you could say that the experience of meditation is "mystical", though I would be cautious about confusing Buddhism's philosophical analysis of reality with the kind of purely "devotional" experiences brought about by some strong inner attachment to an idea, a belief.

Nonetheless it doesn't really negate the point I was making that experiences where we have some feeling of inner certainty and clarity, including experiencing "the holy spirit" can in fact be simply another one of the poisoned delusions of the conditioned mind.