To those who say you need to be "born again" to understand Christianity:

[Aero]

Yeah so I guess you could say that the experience of meditation is "mystical", though I would be cautious about confusing Buddhism's philosophical analysis of reality with the kind of purely "devotional" experiences brought about by some strong inner attachment to an idea, a belief.

Nonetheless it doesn't really negate the point I was making that experiences where we have some feeling of inner certainty and clarity, including experiencing "the holy spirit" can in fact be simply another one of the poisoned delusions of the conditioned mind.

I read the write up you posted about Buddhism. It's not that different than the Dualism philosophies I subscribe to, but I can easily some stark differences. I may give you my philosophical analysis in due time.

I wasn't trying to negate your point BTW. All I am trying to say is that for your warning about delusions to be true, then it must apply to your philosophy as well. Now, I get that you probably understand that, it just hasn't been communicated that way.

In essence, you are saying your philosophy is better. Sure, Buddhism may not be as purely devotional or may contain more universal truths than others, but it still suffers from the same flaws as any other philosophy. It is based on ideas and a specific type of worldview that anyone could argue borders on a form of poison mental conditioning.

 

[shankara]

I read the write up you posted about Buddhism. It's not totally different than the Dualism philosophies I subscribe to, but I can easily some stark differences. I may give you my own philosophical analysis in due time.

I wasn't trying to negate your point BTW. All I am trying to say is that for your warning about delusions to be true, then it must apply to your own philosophy as well. Now, I get that you probably understand that, it just hasn't been communicated that way.

In essence, you are saying your philosophy is better. Sure, Buddhism may not be as purely devotional or may contain more universal truths as others, but it still suffers from the same flaws as any other philosophy. It is based on ideas and a specific type of worldview that anyone could argue borders on a form of poison mental conditioning.

Yeah as I mentioned, even if when practicing meditation we have some kinds of visions I think we would still apply some kind of analysis to them and not treat as the definitive revelation of absolute truth, rather seek to understand whether they come from our conditioning, subconscious complexes etc. Unfortunately I think that people's experience of "the holy spirit" is just due to having developed some strong emotional attachment to ideas and labelling their experiences in accordance with their preconceptions and (subconscious or conscious) expectations. It's very easy to fall into this kind of inner melodrama based on our discursive thoughts and thus convince ourselves of almost anything ("so we have to drink the poison kool aid so the aliens will come and take us to heaven").

I think that Buddhism is philosophically a lot more coherent than the Abrahamic religions, whatever natural human problems practitioners might have. In fact not simply more coherent, but actually entirely coherent. It's emphasis on logical analysis (which complements and informs any devotional elements) and basis in psychology I think makes people less susceptible to confusion than those who are coming from the perspective of being "believers".

 

[Sen]

I believe "Holy Spirit" is none other than what Jung described as Super-Consciousness.

 

[Lisa]

I believe "Holy Spirit" is none other than what Jung described as Super-Consciousness.

You believe him because he’s a trusted Christian?

 

[Aero]

Yeah as I mentioned, even if when practicing meditation we have some kinds of visions I think we would still apply some kind of analysis to them and not treat as the definitive revelation of absolute truth, rather seek to understand whether they come from our conditioning, subconscious complexes etc. Unfortunately I think that people's experience of "the holy spirit" is just due to having developed some strong emotional attachment to ideas and labelling their experiences in accordance with their preconceptions and (subconscious or conscious) expectations. It's very easy to fall into this kind of inner melodrama based on our discursive thoughts and thus convince ourselves of almost anything ("so we have to drink the poison kool aid so the aliens will come and take us to heaven").

We are mostly in agreement then. The idea of heaven, or "paradise" could be considered a veiled form of escapism. Gnosticism simply removes that veil and teaches us the whole point is to escape. Furthermore, it tells us that suffering originates in the physical, or material world. So to embrace such a thing is to embrace the eternity of doom.

I think that Buddhism is philosophically a lot more coherent than the Abrahamic religions, whatever natural human problems practitioners might have. In fact not simply more coherent, but actually entirely coherent. It's emphasis on logical analysis (which complements and informs any devotional elements) and basis in psychology I think makes people less susceptible to confusion than those who are coming from the perspective of being "believers".

Jung said not to underestimate the spiritual depth of Buddhism. But let's be clear about what's required to understand the type of subconscious complexes you are alluding to. It takes intelligence and willpower. Like Gnosticism, it's not an easy path for people to try to go down.

 

[Sen]

You believe him because he’s a trusted Christian?

Because he is an intelligent entity.

 

[DavidSon]

Unfortunately, most have bought into the LIE from Lucifer/Satan/Iblis/the devil that "we are only human after all", which is why Satan has had such success with ALL of his organized religions, including Talmudic Judaism, Christianity and Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Shintoism, etc. (ALL of them). The Bible and the Quran, the latter of which is the third part of the TRUE BIBLE, are replete with condemnations of the priests, pastors, rabbis and imams, etc., and their evil places of business (synagogues, churches, mosques, temples, etc.).

For the 100th time you have this all-or-nothing stance against organized religion which is incorrect. Every religion you mentioned was revealed in an individual who people then chose to emulate and surround. The religious founders wouldn't decry people congregating to worship the Living God. The texts are full of judgement for FALSE teachers and leaders, not all.

Islam began with one believer, then two, etc. Christianity grew organically in the Hellenic world. Even in the 4 Gospels the first place Jesus arrives in a town to teach is at the Temple. The family of believers who gather everywhere are blessed.

I get that there is corruption in some communities but that doesn't condemn the practice of communal worship.Organizing together under a concept of God is the least of our problems.

 

[A Freeman]

For the 100th time you have this all-or-nothing stance against organized religion which is incorrect. Every religion you mentioned was revealed in an individual who people then chose to emulate and surround. The religious founders wouldn't decry people congregating to worship the Living God. The texts are full of judgement for FALSE teachers and leaders, not all.

Thank-you, however please consider the following:-

There is ONE Teacher (Matthew 23:10), ONE Mediator (1 Timothy 2:5), ONE Good Shepherd (John 10:11-14) and ONE High-Priest for ALL-time (Hebrews 6:20): Christ. ONE MEANS ONE; it does NOT mean hundreds of thousands of priests, pastors, rabbis, imams, etc.

John 10:7-16
10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
10:8 ALL that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have Life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.
10:11 I am the Good Shepherd: the Good Shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the Shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth NOT for the sheep.
10:14 I am the Good Shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known by mine.
10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
10:16 And other sheep I have (the "House of Israel"), which are not of this fold (the "House of Judah"): them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one Shepherd (Eze 37:22 and Genesis 49:10).

In truth, every organized religion did begin with a believer, who had admirable qualities that others saw and wanted to emulate. But in each and every case, without exception, other people seized the opportunity to turn it into a lucrative BUSINESS to not only fleece the people but to maintain control over them AND TO FURTHER DIVIDE US AGAINST EACH OTHER.

Islam began with one believer, then two, etc.

And then Omar took over, built himself a mosque (the mosque of Omar/Dome of the Rock) in direct violation of the Quran (Sura 9:107-11) . Of course this later was followed by the Roman Meccan Hadith, which formed the basis for the new business known as Islam, which kept lots of money flowing through Mecca.

Sura 9:107-111
9:107. And there are those who put up mosques (churches; synagogues; etc.), by way of mischief and BETRAYAL - to disunite the Believers - and in preparation for one who warred against "I AM" (Revelation 12:7) and His Messenger aforetime. They will indeed swear that their intention is nothing but good; but "I AM" doth declare that they are certainly LIARS.
9:108. NEVER stand thou forth therein. There is an Holy Place (Mt. Moriah) whose foundation was laid from the first day on piety; it is more worthy of the standing forth (for prayer) therein. In it are men who love to be purified; and "I AM" loveth those who make themselves pure.
9:109. Which then is best? - he that layeth his foundation on piety (a Rock - Matthew 7:24-27) to "I AM" and His Good Pleasure? - or he that layeth his foundation on an undermined sand-cliff ready to crumble to pieces? And it doth crumble to pieces with him, into The Fire of Hell. And "I AM" guideth not people that do wrong (if they are doing wrong Satan is guiding them).
9:110. The foundation of those who so build is NEVER free from suspicion and shakiness in their hearts, until their hearts are cut to pieces. And "I AM" is All-Knowing, Wise.
9:111. "I AM" hath purchased from the Believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is The Garden (of Bliss): they fight in His Cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in Truth, through The Law (The Torah), The Gospel (New Testament/Covenant), and The Koran: and who is more faithful to His Covenant (in the Bible) than "I AM"? Then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded (to fulfill The Covenant of "I AM" written in the Bible): that is the achievement supreme.

Christianity grew organically in the Hellenic world.

While at the same time Rome capitalized on it, mixed in their own pagan Babylonian rites and rituals (the Romans are the direct descendants of the Babylonians - Sura 17:7) and turned it into their own lucrative business empire. It's now the largest business empire on Earth.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to serve God and mammon/materialism (Matt. 6:24). How obvious does it need to be before people get it?

Even in the 4 Gospels the first place Jesus arrives in a town to teach is at the Temple.

Yeah, because that's where they gathered. And what did those people in the Temple try to do to Him for telling them the truth?

Luke 4:16-29
4:16 And he came to Gennesaret, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the church on the Sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
4:17 And there was delivered unto him the Book of the Prophet Isaiah. And when he had opened the Book, he found the place where it was written,
4:18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because He hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; He hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord (Isa. 61:1-3).
4:20 And he closed the Book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the church were fastened on him.
4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this Scripture fulfilled in your ears.
4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the Gracious Words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?
4:23 And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.
4:24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No Prophet is accepted in his own country.
4:25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
4:26 But unto none of them was Elijah sent, save unto Zarephath, [a city] of Sidon, unto a woman [that was] a widow.
4:27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.
4:28 And all they in the church, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
4:29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.

Is it really surprising that those in the church not only didn't recognize The Messiah, but sought to expel Him from the church and their city, and do Him harm? Not really, because ALL temples/churches/synagogues/mosques are places where God does NOT dwell.

Acts 7:48 Howbeit the Most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and Earth, dwelleth NOT in temples made with hands;

The family of believers who gather everywhere are blessed.

If two or three gather in Father's Name, determined to do His Will by obeying Him ONLY in the exact manner in which we've been COMMANDED to do, they will be blessed. Right now the entire world has received Father's undeserved blessing thanks to the unconditional promise made to Abraham.

I get that there is corruption in some communities but that doesn't condemn the practice of communal worship.Organizing together under a concept of God is the least of our problems.

Doing the exact opposite of what we've been COMMANDED to do is the CORE problem on this planet. And that's what needs to change.

Deuteronomy 12:8 Ye shall not do after all [the things] that we do here this day, every man whatsoever [is] right in his own eyes.

What we NEED to do is get rid of ALL of these organized religions, which divide us against each other and actually keep us away from God (who doesn't dwell in their temples/places of business) and UNITE under our Creator's Perfect Law of Liberty, and keep our Covenant with Him, as we've all promised to do. Those who do exactly that are true believers (those who are "true in faith") and will survive. Those who don't, won't.

 

[Sharon]

Peace to you Infinityloop. Here, to the best of my ability, is my answer to one of the reasons listed, number 24 The Two Gospels.

The early disciples, apostles, and Paul knew Jesus was the Son of God (Peter was the first of the twelve to declare Jesus was the Son of God in Matthew 16:16-17) and never doubted His divinity or promise to the children of Israel, but the Pharisees, Sadducees, and other Jews who did not know or believe rejected Jesus a as prophet and the Son of God. The rest of Israel will be blind until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled (Romans 11).

The discrepancy between James and Paul was about how Jesus fulfilled the law of animal sacrifices. A thread posted here called “Acts 15: The Circumcision of Moses”, explains the debate at the Jerusalem council in Acts 15. Most of the Jews at the Jerusalem Council believed Christ was the Lamb of God and that His death would end the sacrifices and oblations for sin, but they didn’t understand Jesus also ended the sacrifices for purification. Jews separated themselves from the Gentiles because the Gentiles were unclean. God had to show Peter in a vision in Acts 10 that all men are made clean through the blood of Christ. This was why Paul did not want the Gentiles to go through the circumcision under the law when it was unnecessary since Christ ended the sacrifices and cleanses all who believe in Him.


The time for the restoration of the children of Israel will happen after His first coming. Peter and John were blessed enough to see the future kingdom with Moses and Elias (Elijah) there in a vision Jesus showed them in (Matthew 17). When Jesus stood in the synagogue, He proclaimed the acceptable year of the Lord was fulfilled.

Luke 4:17-19

17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.



He fulfilled this scripture when he set the captives free, healed the sick, and recovered sight to the blind. The second half of the verse Jesus read (Isaiah 61:2) mentioning His vengeance, will be fulfilled at His second coming when He returns to judge the earth.

At this time, he will gather Israel from the four corners of the earth and bring them back to the Promised Land after seventy prophetic weeks. (Jeremiah 29:10-14)



The scriptures prophesied what needs to occur before He can restore Israel. The nation of Israel includes the physical and spiritual seed of Abraham. (Galatians 3:29 If ye be Christ’s ye be Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise). The seventy weeks of Daniel in Daniel chapter nine, covers the timeline from the reconstruction of the Second Temple, to Christ’s anointing, His death in the midst of the week caused the sacrifices and oblations to cease, then His return, completing the seventy weeks. His first coming was not to restore the kingdom of Israel, but to teach them the Gospel, so Israel could preach His word to the other nations as the priests of God (Exodus 19:5-6 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.), and to die so we can be reconciled back to the Father. Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 also mention what would happen to Jerusalem before He returns and the signs of His second coming and restoration for Israel, but until the seventy weeks are fulfilled, He cannot return yet. Jesus showed His disciples signs He would die and be resurrected but they did not understand these things until after His death. After Jesus’ death and resurrection, they knew and understood the purpose of His first coming.


John 2:21

18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21But he spake of the temple of his body.

22When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.



Jesus is also the only God we’ve ever known. No one has ever seen or heard the Father at any time save the only begotten Son (John 1: 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.). Who then was the great I AM that gave Moses the Ten Commandments? Who showed Moses His backside? Who met Abraham in Genesis 14:18-20 and became the high priest of the Order of Melchisedec? The same one who was God manifested in the flesh, Jesus Christ of Nazareth (1 Tim 3:16). The Godhead is comprised of the Father and His Son. The Holy Spirit is not God, but the angels who give us the word of God and minister to the heirs of salvation.



Hebrews 1:5-7 and 13-14

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

The Godhead has always been the Father and Son. The Hebrew word Elohim is a uni-plural word denoting the existence of two in one. Jesus and his Father are one because they are one in mind and spirit and share the same name.



John 10:27-30

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30I and my Father are one.

John 5:43

43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Ephesians 3:14-16

14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man.



The Father and His Son Jesus are in consensus, unity. Jesus does nothing on His own, obeying and doing only what the Father dictates.



John 6:35-40

35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus was born of a virgin, not from the seed of man as the Bible and Quran (Surah Ali Imran 3 and Surah Maryam 19) testify, but through the power of God.

Luke 3:23-24 and 37-38 (Geneaology)

23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

24Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,).

37Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,

38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.



So, who was Allah?



Surah 3:3 He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

Since Allah gave Moses the scripture (the Torah) as a guidance for the children of Israel, the Torah is also the words of Allah and his teachings

In the Torah, God said He would raise a prophet like unto Moses.



Deuteronomy 18:17-19

17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.



Jesus is this prophet (Acts 3:22-26). Allah in the Torah commands that we obey all this prophet says or does, and Jesus said that he is the bread of life, the Son of God, and no man can come to the Father but by Him. He was with his Father in the glory of God before the world began.

John 17:5-7

5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.



The Torah also testifies of Jesus in Genesis 3 as the seed of the woman that will bruise the head of the serpent who is Satan, and Genesis 17 in the promise God gave Abraham that his seed will bless all nations. God also said in the Torah that the promise would be through Isaac not Ishmael.


Genesis 17:18

18And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

19And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

20And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

21But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.