Those who will not LIVE by The Law will DIE by The Law

A Freeman

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Assuming this is an admission that the Talmud had not yet been written during the life of Jesus (it would take more than 200 years AD before the first mishnah were written down), who on Earth is Jesus referring to when he accuses the scribes? It could not have been the scribes of the Talmud, since it did not yet exist. So what had they written, one wonders?
The Talmud was originally written in Babylon, c. 500 B.C. (it was written while the 2-tribed "House of Judah" was in captivity in Babylon, c. 588-518 BC), but was added to and edited for a couple of hundred years afterwards. So it was in existence in written form for hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus, and was considered to be the holiest book in, and thus the basis for, the newly created organized religion called "Judaism". The Talmud was placed ABOVE The Law of God and the rest of the Old Covenant not just for doctrine, but for legal matters ("codes") as well.

The later Jerusalem Talmud was written hundreds of years later in Jerusalem, in an attempt to discredit and nullify not only Christ's Teachings while Christ was here in the body of Jesus, but the existence of Jesus altogether. Otherwise, the "Jews" would have to admit that they murdered The Lamb of God.

The Jerusalem Talmud was completed c. 350 A.D. by historical accounts.

Talmud is Hebrew, and literally means in English "the traditions of the fathers/elders". The same traditions that Jesus said "make the Commandments of God of no effect".
 

A Freeman

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Would I be misrepresenting you to say that you feel you understand Christianity better than the overwhelming majority of Christians, and Islam better than the overwhelming majority of Muslims?
Would it be misrepresenting your position to say that you are opposed to anyone who advocates doing God's Will by keeping His Law, as we're COMMANDED to do?
 

Maldarker

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As Paul said "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind (Being) I myself serve The Law of God..." (Romans 7:25)


Because the Bible repeatedly condemns churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, etc. and the pretended priests, pastors, rabbis and imams, etc. who run those places of business (dens of thieves).


Are you attempting to judge me because I advocate that we should obey Father's Law, exactly as Christ teaches and said would never pass away? Or are you judging Father's Law?


Exactly the reason why everyone needs to learn discipline and "self" sacrifice, as Christ teaches. As one learns to crucify their "self" (ego) daily, and to depend solely on Father's Wisdom instead of their own, it becomes possible to discern between the good and the evil thoughts that enter the mind, making it much easier to be able to do Father's Will.

In a nutshell, if a thought serves the "self" (i.e. the selfish interests or desires of the human), then it is from Satan. If, on the other hand, the thought serves the greater, common good in accordance with Father's standard of what good is (found and defined only in His Law), then that thought is from Father, The Source of All Good.
Thank you for honest response and nope just asking questions no gotcha moment or anything like that.

Have question about this though...

Exactly the reason why everyone needs to learn discipline and "self" sacrifice, as Christ teaches. As one learns to crucify their "self" (ego) daily, and to depend solely on Father's Wisdom instead of their own, it becomes possible to discern between the good and the evil thoughts that enter the mind, making it much easier to be able to do Father's Will.

you don't answer the question of what happens when that thought already entered the mind its the if you look and have a quick thought of lust right at that point it is sin....so law was broken what then. Can't discern it, it already happened now what?
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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Would it be misrepresenting your position to say that you are opposed to anyone who advocates doing God's Will by keeping His Law, as we're COMMANDED to do?
I would oppose anyone who advocates the sufficiency of the Law for salvation, since that flies entirely in the face of the letter to the [foolish] Galatians*.

*I might simply post up quotes from that letter so you can take it up Paul instead…
 
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Lyfe

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Paul thought he was righteous by The Laws standard until the holy spirit illuminated his eyes to seeing his true condition before God. He knew that he fell so completely short of God's glory(by the revelation of the spirit)that he could only afterward refer to himself as a wretch(Romans 7).

I really believe that the only people who persist under the belief that they are perfectly law abiding are individuals who have yet to be shown how dark their hearts really are. Nobody who has been illuminated to the holiness of God(by the holy spirit) could actually think for a second they could stand before him and point out to God that their day was without sin. I remember listening to a Christian woman speak a while ago about her relationship with God. She asked The Lord to reveal to her sin in her life. She said that she immediately became overwhelmed by an awareness she didn't have before and confessed to not realizing just how big of a sinner she really was. Now through her position in Christ her identity is no longer that of a sinner, but it doesn't change the fact that she(like all of us) has sin. If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If God entered into judgment with us and revealed our sins without holding back we like that woman would also be overwhelmed.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I really believe that the only people who persist under the belief that they are perfectly law abiding are individuals who have yet to be shown how dark their hearts really are. Nobody who has been illuminated to the holiness of God(by the holy spirit) could actually think for a second they could stand before him and point out to God that their day was without sin.
I keep coming back to the encounter of Isaiah when I remember my own initial experience as a teenager feeling the presence of God.

Isaiah 6

6 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
 

Lyfe

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I keep coming back to the encounter of Isaiah when I remember my own initial experience as a teenager feeling the presence of God.

Isaiah 6

6 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
I recall one day in particular too. I was driving to a retail store and I hadn't prayed that morning. I remember how awful and sinful my attitude and thoughts were. The whole time I was driving I was being convicted over how dark and evil the thoughts running through my mind were. I was appalled at how much darkness I saw within myself. I was grieved. The person without the spirit may be aware of their attitude being bad and be bothered by it on some level, but these are the sort of thoughts that grieve the holy spirit. I remember hanging my head in disgust with what I saw within myself and saying, "Lord, you are too holy..."

Obviously the problem wasn't God being holy. It was how unholy and dark my heart was in comparison to the light of Christ and the indwelling holy spirit. I'm always having to watch what I say especially when I have a bad attitude. The Lord has been showing me how serious even murmuring and complaining is. It's only by God's mercy and grace that we aren't consumed. His love and desire to do us good is far greater than his desire to acctually deal with us according to what The Law says we deserve.

Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin? Proverbs 20:9
 
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The Talmud was originally written in Babylon, c. 500 B.C. (it was written while the 2-tribed "House of Judah" was in captivity in Babylon, c. 588-518 BC), but was added to and edited for a couple of hundred years afterwards. So it was in existence in written form for hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus, and was considered to be the holiest book in, and thus the basis for, the newly created organized religion called "Judaism". The Talmud was placed ABOVE The Law of God and the rest of the Old Covenant not just for doctrine, but for legal matters ("codes") as well.

The later Jerusalem Talmud was written hundreds of years later in Jerusalem, in an attempt to discredit and nullify not only Christ's Teachings while Christ was here in the body of Jesus, but the existence of Jesus altogether. Otherwise, the "Jews" would have to admit that they murdered The Lamb of God.

The Jerusalem Talmud was completed c. 350 A.D. by historical accounts.

Talmud is Hebrew, and literally means in English "the traditions of the fathers/elders". The same traditions that Jesus said "make the Commandments of God of no effect".
Your evidence that the Babylonian Talmud dates to 500 BC, please.
 

A Freeman

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Thank you for honest response and nope just asking questions no gotcha moment or anything like that.
You're welcome.

Have question about this though...

Exactly the reason why everyone needs to learn discipline and "self" sacrifice, as Christ teaches. As one learns to crucify their "self" (ego) daily, and to depend solely on Father's Wisdom instead of their own, it becomes possible to discern between the good and the evil thoughts that enter the mind, making it much easier to be able to do Father's Will.

you don't answer the question of what happens when that thought already entered the mind its the if you look and have a quick thought of lust right at that point it is sin....so law was broken what then. Can't discern it, it already happened now what?
Every word we speak or action we take begins with a thought, which itself is either good or evil. Most people are trained to believe that they are in control of their own mind, and that the thoughts they have are their own, and they are just speaking or acting out what's "on their mind". They have no concept of "self" and therefore feel as if they are subject to the emotions that are associated with the thoughts that run through their mind, and thus are almost constantly in a lower, reactionary/emotional state rather than in a higher/awakened, spiritual state.

As long as one believes they are only human (even if they believe they are a human with a soul), they will never be able to learn how to recognize much less regain control of their own mind and the thoughts that runs through it. Only in an awakened, spiritual state, KNOWING the Truth that we are actually spiritual-Beings who are temporarily incarnating the human body we see in the mirror, does it become possible to peacefully observe thoughts as they come into the mind, discern their intent, and then choose to solely act upon the good rather than the evil.

The more this is practiced (achieving this peaceful, calm state of mind, where we can meet Father in the present moment - Ps. 46:10), the better one becomes at it. In other words, the more control one gains over their own mind. If you can see something is a temptation the instant it enters the mind, then you can easily avoid that temptation, rather than giving that thought energy (dwelling on it), until it manifests itself physically, either in some emotionally-driven word or action that is later regretted.

Of course The Law defines what is good and evil, so the more it is studied and put into practice, the better one becomes at discerning between good and evil. That's why without The Law, it is impossible for someone to discern between what the Holy Spirit is telling them (by thought) or what Satan is telling them (likewise by thought).

This process obviously involves a learning curve. As one strives for perfection (to become more like Father), they improve and can build off of those improvements until one day, what may not have been immediately seen as a temptation weeks or months ago, is now almost immediately recognized as a temptation (all temptations are human/flesh/ego/"self" related, where it is trying to get what it wants or believes will make it happy, regardless of whether it comes at someone else's expense), and thus can easily be avoided.

That "urge" to repay someone else's unkind words with "a piece of your(?) mind" is neutralized instead of being acted upon, so that you can instead allow Father (via His Holy Spirit, which is our connection to Him) the time to guide and instruct you on what should be said to benefit everyone involved. Similarly, that "urge" to take action is now met with peace and calm, for the same reason.

We can and MUST learn to control our thoughts, thereby learning to control what comes out of our mouth (or written) and what kind of actions we take. And the instant that one awakens and embarks on this path, to become more Christ-like (true enlightenment), Father begins helping every step of The Way. Draw closer to Father (through discipline and obedience to His Commands) and He will draw closer to you, as promised - James 4:8).

Even Christ, while He was here in the body of Jesus, was on a learning curve (Heb. 5:5-10), and He is The Example (John 14:6).
 

A Freeman

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And where does it date it to 500 BC?

From your source:

View attachment 83846

c. 500 means circa 500 AD, a dating I already mentioned to you here:


The captivity of the 2-tribed "House of Judah" in Babylon began in 604 B.C., with the majority, including Zedekiah (who was blinded after watching all of his sons slain) being taken c. 588 B.C., when Nebuchadnezzar's army routed Jerusalem and destroyed Solomon's Temple. They spent the next 70 years in captivity in Babylon, where they conspired against God to form the organized religion of Talmudic Judaism, based on the Babylonian Talmud, which was written in Babylon at that time (c. 500 B.C.).

This conspiracy is recorded by both Jeremiah and Ezekiel (Jer. 11:9 and Ezek. 22:25).

From: https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-important-events/birth-jesus-0014637

The Babylonian Talmud has two main components: the Mishnah (c. 200 BC), a written collection of Rabbinic Judaism's Oral Law or the Oral Torah: the laws, statutes, and legal interpretations that were not recorded in the Five Books of Moses (Written Torah); and the Gemara (c. 500 BC), a clarification or explanation by Rabbis of the Mishnah and related Tannaitic writings that often ventures onto other topics and expands broadly on the Old Testament .

We then have Jesus plainly stating in c. 30 A.D. that NONE of the Jews kept The Law/Commandments of God, but instead kept their traditions, which make the Law/Commandments of God of no effect, confirming the Talmud was being used by the rabbinical priesthood and the Sanhedrin during the lifetime of Jesus.

So there is absolutely no doubt from Scripture and from secular sources that the Babylonian Talmud was already in use when Jesus walked the Earth.
 
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The captivity of the 2-tribed "House of Judah" in Babylon began in 604 B.C., with the majority, including Zedekiah (who was blinded after watching all of his sons slain) being taken c. 588 B.C., when Nebuchadnezzar's army routed Jerusalem and destroyed Solomon's Temple. They spent the next 70 years in captivity in Babylon, where they conspired against God to form the organized religion of Talmudic Judaism, based on the Babylonian Talmud, which was written in Babylon at that time (c. 500 B.C.).

This conspiracy is recorded by both Jeremiah and Ezekiel (Jer. 11:9 and Ezek. 22:25).

From: https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-important-events/birth-jesus-0014637

The Babylonian Talmud has two main components: the Mishnah (c. 200 BC), a written collection of Rabbinic Judaism's Oral Law or the Oral Torah: the laws, statutes, and legal interpretations that were not recorded in the Five Books of Moses (Written Torah); and the Gemara (c. 500 BC), a clarification or explanation by Rabbis of the Mishnah and related Tannaitic writings that often ventures onto other topics and expands broadly on the Old Testament .
Where’s the evidence? This Robert W. Weber just makes an unsubstantiated claim.

The oldest mishnah manuscript (Kauffman) dates to the 11th century AD, approximately.

There’s no archeological or historical evidence that either the mishnah or the gemara existed in any shape or form prior to the 2nd century AD.
 

A Freeman

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Where’s the evidence? This Robert W. Weber just makes an unsubstantiated claim.

The oldest mishnah manuscript (Kauffman) dates to the 11th century AD, approximately.

There’s no archeological or historical evidence that either the mishnah or the gemara existed in any shape or form prior to the 2nd century AD.
There is ample Scriptural evidence and the secular evidence that prove you to be in error. It's understood from your many, previous posts that you don't believe the Scripture, or even the words directly out of Jesus mouth, which you routinely argue against, and thus you will continue to argue nonsense as long as someone else is there to help you feed your ego.

Learn to destroy your ego before it destroys you. This thread is about our need to keep The Law that God gave us for our benefit, to aid us in that process.
 
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There is ample Scriptural evidence and the secular evidence that prove you to be in error. It's understood from your many, previous posts that you don't believe the Scripture, or even the words directly out of Jesus mouth, which you routinely argue against, and thus you will continue to argue nonsense as long as someone else is there to help you feed your ego.

Learn to destroy your ego before it destroys you. This thread is about our need to keep The Law that God gave us for our benefit, to aid us in that process.
I've not yet compared myself to a vessel through which the Father spreads His Word, however, which cannot be said by everyone here.

So where's the scriptural or secular evidence then? You haven't delivered on either front.
 

Lyfe

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Paul pointed out in his epistle that he was being compelled by the law of Christ. Why did he feel the need to emphasize a distinction between The Law of Moses and The Law Of Christ?

The law of Christ is inwardly realized and known through our connection to him by the holy spirit. This is why Paul said the chief aim of his exhortation (in a combined sense) is LOVE. LOVE is the fulfilling of the law. We are able to express this love to our fellow man when we abide in Christ(the vine) and yield to the holy spirit. It was Jesus who even said that THE FATHER """"IN"""" him does the works. If we are connected to the vine(Christ) he will bear his fruit through us by the holy spirit. The Love of God seeks to engage the world through the fruit of the spirit.

Love is a fruit of the spirit. Goodness is a fruit of the spirit. Patience is a fruit of the spirit. These are all qualities needed in every relationship that is based off of love. The law made nothing perfect, because it has no power to change and influence a person inwardly. This is why God gives someone the spirit and a heart of flesh the moment of salvation.
 

A Freeman

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Matthew 5:17-20
5:17 Think NOT that I am come to destroy The Law, or the Prophets: I am NOT come to destroy, but to fulfill [fully preach The Law (The Torah) and fulfill the prophecies about the first coming of the Messiah].
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from The Law, till ALL be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least COMMANDments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in The Kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in The Kingdom of heaven.
5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall EXCEED [the righteousness] of the lawyers/scribes and politicians/pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into The Kingdom of heaven.


John 7:16-17
7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but His that sent me.
7:17 If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

There is only ONE Law: God's Law, which Christ delivered to us via Moses, for our benefit and protection. God is Love and so is His Law, which is why The Law will NEVER pass away.

If only people knew what Love really is, and had the Love of God and His Christ in them.

Exodus 20:6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love [and obey] Me, and KEEP My Commandments.

John 14:15 If ye love me, KEEP my COMMANDments.
 
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Lyfe

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1 John 3:22-24

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


There is indeed a legalistic way of interpreting the commandments and then the actual and spiritual interpretation illuminated by the holy spirit. If you read the book of James in his faith and works sermon what was he actually talking about(in context)? Love and taking care of other members of God's family

if you read Jesus sermon in the later part of the gospel of John what commandments was he actually referring to(in context)? Love. He said that people would know we are his disciples by our love(patience, kindness, not doing wrong) to another.

If you read 1 John in context what commandments is he referring to? Again the focus is on loving your brother.

The legalistic interpretation of the commandments focuses on self. The true interpretation as Christ revealed is focusing on others and taking care of them and bearing their burdens. James said pure and undefiled religion was tending to orphans and widows in their distress. If our understanding of the law doesn't involve a real focus and importance and sacrificial time spent on others and tending to their well being we don't really understand The Law.
 

Lyfe

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In fact people often grade and measure their love for God by their adherence to the commandments that specifically deal with emphasizing an abstinence from sins of the flesh. A
more accurate measure is how much sacrifical love and time and energy we purposely invest on the bettering of others. This is why Jesus asked Peter if he loved him. Peter said yes. Then Jesus said feed and tend to my sheep(your brothers). This is why he said the greatest of all will be a servant of all.

We can't boast about our love for God too much if our time and energy doesn't invest too much in helping others(through sacrificial time and energy spent on them).

If we graded ourselves this way we would come to see ourselves in a different light. That's why I am always praying that God would help me to love in the way he wants me to, because I know I am very selfish when I measure myself this way.
 
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