There is NO HELL

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#22
What Jesus Said About Hell

Jesus used two Greek terms, hades and gehenna, to speak about death and the punishment of the unrighteous. Given the popular belief in the meaning hell, we need to consider it carefully.

Hades is equivalent to the Hebrew she’ôl, the most common Old Testament term for the realm of the dead. These names simply represent the grave or the place to which all descend at death, with no connotation of punishment or reward. There is one text, however, where hades appears to be connected with punishment. It is in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

The parable is found in Luke 16:19-31. This parable is not focused on the state of man in death. A popular but unbiblical belief that many of Jesus’ contemporaries held provided the background for this parable, which teaches an important lesson: our future destiny is determined by the decisions we make daily in this life. If we reject the light God grants us here, there is no opportunity after death. Any attempt to interpret this parable literally leads to many insoluble problems. Actually, the details of the picture seem purposely awkward in order to show us that Jesus did not intend His words to be taken literally, but figuratively.

What warnings did Jesus pronounce regarding hell?

Matthew 5:22, "But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca! shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire."

Matthew 5:29-30, "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell."

Matthew 7:13–14, "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Matthew 23:33, "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?"

In many Bible translations, the word hell appears eleven times on Jesus’ lips. He actually used the Greek term gehenna, from the Hebrew name Gê Hinnom, Valley of Hinnom. According to the Old Testament, in this gorge south of Jerusalem, kings Ahaz and Manasseh conducted the horrendous pagan rite of burning children to Molech (2 Chronicles. 28:3; 2 Chronicles. 33:6). Later, godly king Josiah brought the practice to a halt (2 Kings 23:10). Because of the sins perpetrated in it, Jeremiah prophesied that God would make the place a valley of slaughter (Jeremiah 7:32-33; Jeremiah 19:6). Hence, for the Jews, the valley became a symbol of the last judgment and the punishment of the impenitent. Jesus used the name figuratively, without explaining any details regarding the time and place of the punishment, which we find in other biblical passages. Hell, though, is not a place of eternal punishment.
 





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#23
What Jesus Said About Hell

Jesus used two Greek terms, hades and gehenna, to speak about death and the punishment of the unrighteous. Given the popular belief in the meaning hell, we need to consider it carefully.

Hades is equivalent to the Hebrew she’ôl, the most common Old Testament term for the realm of the dead. These names simply represent the grave or the place to which all descend at death, with no connotation of punishment or reward. There is one text, however, where hades appears to be connected with punishment. It is in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

The parable is found in Luke 16:19-31. This parable is not focused on the state of man in death. A popular but unbiblical belief that many of Jesus’ contemporaries held provided the background for this parable, which teaches an important lesson: our future destiny is determined by the decisions we make daily in this life. If we reject the light God grants us here, there is no opportunity after death. Any attempt to interpret this parable literally leads to many insoluble problems. Actually, the details of the picture seem purposely awkward in order to show us that Jesus did not intend His words to be taken literally, but figuratively.

What warnings did Jesus pronounce regarding hell?

Matthew 5:22, "But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca! shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire."

Matthew 5:29-30, "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell."

Matthew 7:13–14, "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Matthew 23:33, "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?"

In many Bible translations, the word hell appears eleven times on Jesus’ lips. He actually used the Greek term gehenna, from the Hebrew name Gê Hinnom, Valley of Hinnom. According to the Old Testament, in this gorge south of Jerusalem, kings Ahaz and Manasseh conducted the horrendous pagan rite of burning children to Molech (2 Chronicles. 28:3; 2 Chronicles. 33:6). Later, godly king Josiah brought the practice to a halt (2 Kings 23:10). Because of the sins perpetrated in it, Jeremiah prophesied that God would make the place a valley of slaughter (Jeremiah 7:32-33; Jeremiah 19:6). Hence, for the Jews, the valley became a symbol of the last judgment and the punishment of the impenitent. Jesus used the name figuratively, without explaining any details regarding the time and place of the punishment, which we find in other biblical passages. Hell, though, is not a place of eternal punishment.
I really appreciate it how you put it. There is no doubt that some things were meant to be taken literally while some figuratively or symbolically.

This along with the explanation of the Lake of Fire makes perfect sense. To illustrate it, what happens when something is thrown into the lava, it gets destroyed. The Lake of Fire, the second and final death is just like that.
 





Lisa

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#24
Matthew‬ ‭8:12‬ ‭
But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
‭‭
Matthew‬ ‭13:42‬ ‭
And will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
‭‭
Matthew‬ ‭13:50‬ ‭
And will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
‭‭
Matthew‬ ‭22:13‬ ‭
Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
‭‭

Matthew‬ ‭25:30, 46‬ ‭
Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
‭‭

Revelation‬ ‭20:10-15‬ ‭​
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
‭‭

Sounds like eternal punishment...and like I’ve said before...if its not a bad punishment...then why did Jesus have to suffer so?
Matthew‬ ‭27:15-18, 20-31, 33-37, 46-50‬ ‭​
“Now at the feast the governor was accustomed to release for the people any one prisoner whom they wanted. At that time they were holding a notorious prisoner, called Barabbas. So when the people gathered together, Pilate said to them, “Whom do you want me to release for you? Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?” For he knew that because of envy they had handed Him over.

But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowds to ask for Barabbas and to put Jesus to death. But the governor said to them, “Which of the two do you want me to release for you?” And they said, “Barabbas.” Pilate said to them, “Then what shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?” They all said, “Crucify Him!” And he said, “Why, what evil has He done?” But they kept shouting all the more, saying, “Crucify Him!” When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but rather that a riot was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd, saying, “I am innocent of this Man’s blood; see to that yourselves.” And all the people said, “His blood shall be on us and on our children!” Then he released Barabbas for them; but after having Jesus scourged, he handed Him over to be crucified. Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole Roman cohort around Him. They stripped Him and put a scarlet robe on Him. And after twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on His head, and a reed in His right hand; and they knelt down before Him and mocked Him, saying, “Hail, King of the Jews!” They spat on Him, and took the reed and began to beat Him on the head. After they had mocked Him, they took the scarlet robe off Him and put His own garments back on Him, and led Him away to crucify Him.

And when they came to a place called Golgotha, which means Place of a Skull, they gave Him wine to drink mixed with gall; and after tasting it, He was unwilling to drink. And when they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments among themselves by casting lots. And sitting down, they began to keep watch over Him there. And above His head they put up the charge against Him which read, “THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.”

About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” that is, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?” And some of those who were standing there, when they heard it, began saying, “This man is calling for Elijah.” Immediately one of them ran, and taking a sponge, he filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink. But the rest of them said, “Let us see whether Elijah will come to save Him.” And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.”
‭‭
 





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#25
Matthew‬ ‭8:12‬ ‭​

But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

‭‭​

Matthew‬ ‭13:42‬ ‭​

And will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

‭‭​

Matthew‬ ‭13:50‬ ‭​

And will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

‭‭​

Matthew‬ ‭22:13‬ ‭​

Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

‭‭

Matthew‬ ‭25:30, 46‬ ‭​

Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
‭‭

Revelation‬ ‭20:10-15‬ ‭​
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
‭‭

Sounds like eternal punishment...and like I’ve said before...if its not a bad punishment...then why did Jesus have to suffer so?
Matthew‬ ‭27:15-18, 20-31, 33-37, 46-50‬ ‭​
“Now at the feast the governor was accustomed to release for the people any one prisoner whom they wanted. At that time they were holding a notorious prisoner, called Barabbas. So when the people gathered together, Pilate said to them, “Whom do you want me to release for you? Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?” For he knew that because of envy they had handed Him over.

But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowds to ask for Barabbas and to put Jesus to death. But the governor said to them, “Which of the two do you want me to release for you?” And they said, “Barabbas.” Pilate said to them, “Then what shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?” They all said, “Crucify Him!” And he said, “Why, what evil has He done?” But they kept shouting all the more, saying, “Crucify Him!” When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but rather that a riot was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd, saying, “I am innocent of this Man’s blood; see to that yourselves.” And all the people said, “His blood shall be on us and on our children!” Then he released Barabbas for them; but after having Jesus scourged, he handed Him over to be crucified. Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole Roman cohort around Him. They stripped Him and put a scarlet robe on Him. And after twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on His head, and a reed in His right hand; and they knelt down before Him and mocked Him, saying, “Hail, King of the Jews!” They spat on Him, and took the reed and began to beat Him on the head. After they had mocked Him, they took the scarlet robe off Him and put His own garments back on Him, and led Him away to crucify Him.

And when they came to a place called Golgotha, which means Place of a Skull, they gave Him wine to drink mixed with gall; and after tasting it, He was unwilling to drink. And when they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments among themselves by casting lots. And sitting down, they began to keep watch over Him there. And above His head they put up the charge against Him which read, “THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.”

About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” that is, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?” And some of those who were standing there, when they heard it, began saying, “This man is calling for Elijah.” Immediately one of them ran, and taking a sponge, he filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink. But the rest of them said, “Let us see whether Elijah will come to save Him.” And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.”
‭‭
Ok so some Bibles use the term eternal punishment. But if you really think about it, think that when we're no longer on earth to enjoy the small pleasures of life, to not spend time with our loved ones, that is punishment enough.
 





Lisa

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#26
Ok so some Bibles use the term eternal punishment. But if you really think about it, think that when we're no longer on earth to enjoy the small pleasures of life, to not spend time with our loved ones, that is punishment enough.
No that’s not punishment enough, in the lake of fire there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, the lake of fire is the punishment we sinners deserve.

Some of our relatives will be in that lake of fire and that will be hard...maybe why God will wipe away our tears?
 





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#27
God's Love and Fires of Hell

In 1 Peter 4:17 the Word of God poses a very sobering question: "What will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?"

Let's discover the actual fate of those who reject the mercy and salvation of God.

Multitudes believe that God torments sinners in an eternally burning hell. They perceive hell, perhaps, as a deep chasm within the earth with millions screaming in torment for deliverance. This has led many to hate God. But what does the Bible really teach regarding the destruction of the wicked?

1. Where do the fires of hell originate?

Hebrews 12:29, "For our God is a consuming fire."

Revelation 20:9, "They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them."

MY BIBLE SAYS: "For our God is a consuming fire." "And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them."

2. Where are both the righteous and the wicked rewarded?

Matthew 5:5, "Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth."

Proverbs 11:31, "If the righteous will be recompensed on the earth, How much more the ungodly and the sinner."

MY BIBLE SAYS: "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." "If the righteous will be recompensed on the earth, how much more the wicked and the sinner."

3. How completely will the fires of hell destroy the wicked? Will they burn through millions of years?

MY BIBLE SAYS:

A. Malachi 4:1-3, “For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” Says the Lord of hosts, “That will leave them neither root nor branch. But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves. You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this,” Says the Lord of hosts."

B. Psalm 37:10, "For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more; Indeed, you will look carefully for his place, But it shall be no more."

c. Job 20:5-9, "That the triumphing of the wicked is short, And the joy of the hypocrite is but for a moment? Though his haughtiness mounts up to the heavens, And his head reaches to the clouds, Yet he will perish forever like his own refuse; Those who have seen him will say, ‘Where is he?’ He will fly away like a dream, and not be found; Yes, he will be chased away like a vision of the night. The eye that saw him will see him no more, Nor will his place behold him anymore."

D. Proverbs 10:25, "When the whirlwind passes by, the wicked is no more, But the righteous has an everlasting foundation."

E. Isaiah 47:14, "Behold, they shall be as stubble, The fire shall burn them; They shall not deliver themselves From the power of the flame; It shall not be a coal to be warmed by, Nor a fire to sit before!"

4. What does God call the destruction of the wicked?

Matthew 25:46, "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

MY BIBLE SAYS: "And these will go away into everlasting Punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The destruction of the wicked is everlasting; they do not remain alive in the fires of hell forever. God, in one act, destroys them forever. The destruction never need be repeated.

5. According to the Bible, how long does an "eternal fire" burn? What example does God give of two cities burned by an eternal fire?

Jude 7, "as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

MY BIBLE SAYS: "As Sodom and Gomorrah, . . . are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Sodom and Gomorrah are not burning now! In fact, they were completely destroyed and, some believe, are under the Dead Sea. The eternal fire of the Bible is one which destroys so completely that it fully consumes.

6. How completely did the eternal fire which came from heaven destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?

2 Peter 2:6, "and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;"

MY BIBLE SAYS: ". . . And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; . . ."

As Sodom and Gomorrah were turned to ashes and thus destroyed forever, the wicked will be completely destroyed, never to live again.

7. Does God desire to destroy wicked men and women?

Ezekiel 18.32, "For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”

MY BIBLE SAYS: " 'For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,' says the Lord God. 'Therefore turn and live!"

God longs to save every individual, but those who reject His loving invitation to salvation and persistently spurn His mercy will eventually be destroyed. The cancer of sin must be completely removed from the universe.

8. What is the ultimate fate of this planet?

2 Peter 3:13, "Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."

MY BIBLE SAYS: "Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."

9. Will sin ever rise again? What is the fate of Satan and his followers?

Obadiah 1:16, "For as you drank on My holy mountain, So shall all the nations drink continually; Yes, they shall drink, and swallow, And they shall be as though they had never been.

Nahum 1:9, "What do you conspire against the Lord? He will make an utter end of it. Affliction will not rise up a second time."

MY BIBLE SAYS: "And they shall be as though they had never been."

"What do you conspire against the Lord? He will make an utter end of it. Affliction will not rise up a second time."

The choice is ours! Where do we spend eternity? Every man, woman and child must decide. Lets choose to spend eternity with Jesus, rejoicing in the New Earth.
 





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#28
No that’s not punishment enough, in the lake of fire there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, the lake of fire is the punishment we sinners deserve.

Some of our relatives will be in that lake of fire and that will be hard...maybe why God will wipe away our tears?
Well that was just an illustration, it's not a representation of God's actual plan.
Just because God did punish people in the past, he did it while they were still alive so they could learn and change their sinful course. What would be the point of punishing "dead people"? What are they to learn and apply if they're not gonna be alive anymore? There's no point in teaching someone that's gonna be dead anyway and won't get to apply the changed mentality.

Plus it's obvious God knows we suffer during our lifetime so you really think/feel he'd want us to suffer for eternity too??? It paints an ugly picture of God, it means that he's uncaring, insensitive and cruel. If a lot of us human beings are capable of being of tender affections, loving and caring, don't you think God is like that too? The perfect good God?

I mean you don't think about the devil enough, he creates misery and hides under the guise that it's God's purpose when we know it is NOT. God is not involved in dealing with the world right now and look at the HUGE mess it is. It's the devil along with the demons that have created this chaos, darkness and confusion for the suffering of EVERYONE. False teachings that paint Yahweh as uncaring and cruel when it's the devil who is just that.

I understand what you're saying about our relatives being there unfortunately, but we don't know what else God intends to do beyond what is written in the Bible. God knows and understands and he's also fair and just.

Seriously, God gives us so much freedom that we get to choose who to side with. We all have personal decisions to make. Why should God accept people that want to side with his archenemy the devil, the cause of deviance, suffering and evil??? Why should people want to be ok with the devil and be opposed to God???
 





Lisa

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#29
Well that was just an illustration, it's not a representation of God's actual plan.
Just because God did punish people in the past, he did it while they were still alive so they could learn and change their sinful course. What would be the point of punishing "dead people"? What are they to learn and apply if they're not gonna be alive anymore? There's no point in teaching someone that's gonna be dead anyway and won't get to apply the changed mentality.
Actually, God warned people first about what would happen if they turned away from Him and then carried out what He said He would do...
Dying is a punishment in itself...if you eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil..you will surely die.

That is the end punishment..God gives a way out of that punishment..which for some reason you refuse to look at. Only wanting to see God as good and not as a punisher of sins. He gives the way out of our sinful choices now by believing on Jesus and being saved..after that its the lake of fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. We are warned...along with a way out if only we will take it...its called mercy.


Plus it's obvious God knows we suffer during our lifetime so you really think/feel he'd want us to suffer for eternity too??? It paints an ugly picture of God, it means that he's uncaring, insensitive and cruel. If a lot of us human beings are capable of being of tender affections, loving and caring, don't you think God is like that too? The perfect good God?
So, God shouldn’t blame us since we suffer here and He knows it? I once tried that with God..you know God how hard my life is/was, you’ll go easy on me now won’t you? Lol! That doesn’t work with God, He will do the good to you that needs to be done in order to change you into that new creation. He who began a good work in you will continue it till Christ Jesus. He doesn’t let our pity parties get in the way of His work in us.

I mean you don't think about the devil enough, he creates misery and hides under the guise that it's God's purpose when we know it is NOT. God is not involved in dealing with the world right now and look at the HUGE mess it is. It's the devil along with the demons that have created this chaos, darkness and confusion for the suffering of EVERYONE. False teachings that paint Yahweh as uncaring and cruel when it's the devil who is just that.
The problem with you is that you are infinitely able to blame everything and everyone always. One needs to step up and say, yes I am a sinner and I do wrong and bad things that don’t please God. Whether or not the devil has a hand in it or not...
God does deal with the world..He is in many peoples lives..It just isn’t His time to return yet and He tells us that before His return the world will increase in lawlessness. He still works in people lives and in the world, but this world is not His kingdom

I understand what you're saying about our relatives being there unfortunately, but we don't know what else God intends to do beyond what is written in the Bible. God knows and understands and he's also fair and just.

Seriously, God gives us so much freedom that we get to choose who to side with. We all have personal decisions to make. Why should God accept people that want to side with his archenemy the devil, the cause of deviance, suffering and evil??? Why should people want to be ok with the devil and be opposed to God???
What do you mean we don’t know what God intends to do beyond what is written in the Bible? He’s holding back?

We all were siding with the devil at one time...every one has to choose God..you aren’t born a Christian and you aren’t a Christian because your parents are one...we all must decide for ourselves.

I don’t think people think they are on the devil’s side tbh, I think they just want to live their lives without God’s laws getting in their way and ruining their good time..they aren’t hurting people after all, just having their own fun...when what they are doing is disobeying God and what He says is the right way to live. People don’t want God for that reason alone, so the devil seems so much more fun and he doesn’t mind that you do the evil things you do...he wants company in that lake of fire and he also knows it hurts God to see what people do and that they disobey Him...
 





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#30
Actually, God warned people first about what would happen if they turned away from Him and then carried out what He said He would do...
Dying is a punishment in itself...if you eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil..you will surely die.

That is the end punishment..God gives a way out of that punishment..which for some reason you refuse to look at. Only wanting to see God as good and not as a punisher of sins. He gives the way out of our sinful choices now by believing on Jesus and being saved..after that its the lake of fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. We are warned...along with a way out if only we will take it...its called mercy.
Luke 18:18 Jesus said only one is good, God.
1 John 4:16 God is love


So, God shouldn’t blame us since we suffer here and He knows it? I once tried that with God..you know God how hard my life is/was, you’ll go easy on me now won’t you? Lol! That doesn’t work with God, He will do the good to you that needs to be done in order to change you into that new creation. He who began a good work in you will continue it till Christ Jesus. He doesn’t let our pity parties get in the way of His work in us.
Well just remember that God is allowing things to happen to us. I guess you don't believe Satan exists and he's the greatest cause of misery and suffering. Even Job thought that God was the one behind all his misfortunes and he didn't think about the devil, even though the devil caused ALL of Job's misfortunes. The devil doesn't take it easy on ANYONE.

The problem with you is that you are infinitely able to blame everything and everyone always. One needs to step up and say, yes I am a sinner and I do wrong and bad things that don’t please God. Whether or not the devil has a hand in it or not...
God does deal with the world..He is in many peoples lives..It just isn’t His time to return yet and He tells us that before His return the world will increase in lawlessness. He still works in people lives and in the world, but this world is not His kingdom
Yes I AM A SINNER, WE ALL ARE. While my ignorance has been the greatest factor behind my misfortunes, it has also been the lack of trusting God and not listening to him. Yahweh is NOT Jesus. Jesus is returning, Yahweh is not.

What do you mean we don’t know what God intends to do beyond what is written in the Bible? He’s holding back?
Well of course he has many more things to establish when he brings the new heavens and new earth.
We all were siding with the devil at one time...every one has to choose God..you aren’t born a Christian and you aren’t a Christian because your parents are one...we all must decide for ourselves.
Right ON
I don’t think people think they are on the devil’s side tbh, I think they just want to live their lives without God’s laws getting in their way and ruining their good time..they aren’t hurting people after all, just having their own fun...when what they are doing is disobeying God and what He says is the right way to live. People don’t want God for that reason alone, so the devil seems so much more fun and he doesn’t mind that you do the evil things you do...he wants company in that lake of fire and he also knows it hurts God to see what people do and that they disobey Him...

Without God's laws what are we doing?? Following imperfect human thoughts?? we are bound to stumble that way. The devil doesn't want God either that's why he pulled Adam and Eve away and that's what he's been doing with humans ever since. The devil doesn't want company when he himself is gonna be destroyed, he wants EVERYTHING that God has created destroyed.
 





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#31
Hell is temporary, so is staying in Gods presence. After you die, you don't get judged right away because Final Judgment Day is the day everyone starting from the beginning of the world will get judged. Many think you get judged right away, and that only our generation will get judged, (Because they believe this is the final generation in these days, and so do I, but it's not just us getting judged)

Luke 16:19-31
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
King James Version (KJV)

This means when you die, you go to hell, which hell is a situation. People say hell isn't a place, but you could call the lake of fire hell as well since you're experiencing hell via troubles. So understand the lake of fire is where people that's not of God will go, and his kingdom is where his people will dwell until he makes the new earth. So in conclusion, I guess the real hell is where you go after death if you aren't of Christ, and you will be in his presence sleeping soundfully like Abraham if you were one of his people.
 





Lisa

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#32
Hell is temporary, so is staying in Gods presence. After you die, you don't get judged right away because Final Judgment Day is the day everyone starting from the beginning of the world will get judged. Many think you get judged right away, and that only our generation will get judged, (Because they believe this is the final generation in these days, and so do I, but it's not just us getting judged)

Luke 16:19-31
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
King James Version (KJV)

This means when you die, you go to hell, which hell is a situation. People say hell isn't a place, but you could call the lake of fire hell as well since you're experiencing hell via troubles. So understand the lake of fire is where people that's not of God will go, and his kingdom is where his people will dwell until he makes the new earth. So in conclusion, I guess the real hell is where you go after death if you aren't of Christ, and you will be in his presence sleeping soundfully like Abraham if you were one of his people.
I think when people die, they sleep in the ground and then when the white throne judgement comes...after the millennium...then people go off to judgement or everlasting life...no one is in heaven or hell now.
Daniel‬ ‭12:2‬ ‭
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.​
‭‭
Revelation‬ ‭20:7-15‬ ‭
When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
‭‭
 





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#33
I think when people die, they sleep in the ground and then when the white throne judgement comes...after the millennium...then people go off to judgement or everlasting life...no one is in heaven or hell now.
Daniel‬ ‭12:2‬ ‭​

Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.​
‭‭
Revelation‬ ‭20:7-15‬ ‭
When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
‭‭
If the Lake of Fire is the second death, the one no one comes back from, the devil included, then why would the devil be tormented day and night, forever and ever?
You can see that even death and the grave were thrown into the Lake of Fire meaning that they are eternally destroyed. Never to exist again. Which makes sense because death was not part of God's plan for Adam and Eve and mankind. So it makes sense that he will destroy it forever, just like he will destroy the evil devil and his followers.


Something about the word 'tormented' is what changes things. The meaning or everlasting cutoff or everlasting destruction makes sense but someone being tormented after being destroyed doesn't make sense.
 





Lisa

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#34
If the Lake of Fire is the second death, the one no one comes back from, the devil included, then why would the devil be tormented day and night, forever and ever?
You can see that even death and the grave were thrown into the Lake of Fire meaning that they are eternally destroyed. Never to exist again. Which makes sense because death was not part of God's plan for Adam and Eve and mankind. So it makes sense that he will destroy it forever, just like he will destroy the evil devil and his followers.


Something about the word 'tormented' is what changes things. The meaning or everlasting cutoff or everlasting destruction makes sense but someone being tormented after being destroyed doesn't make sense.
People are thrown into the lake of fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth and the devil tormented day and night there...obviously then no one is destroyed in the lake of fire...it is a place of eternal torment like Jesus said.

God had to have had a plan about death because He warned Adam for in the day you eat of it you will surely die (Genesis 2:17). Adam though he was warned still ate the fruit, one could also read that passage as a prophecy and not just a warning...
 





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#35
Here's the thing. There's a verse where he tell us that hell will be cast into the lake of fire.

He told us specifically not to come to conclusions on our own understanding, but of his. So I will explain this with how he taught me.

Hell is cast into the lake of fire because it's no longer a temporary place for those not of God to dwell in. However, he never said "And being in my presence, no more" This is because Gods people WILL be in his presence for eternity, the only difference is they are not sleeping because they have changed with the new immortal bodies God gave them, and now they actually live forever more with God. Allow me to restate again, the only reason hell is cast into the lake of fire is because people not of God will actually go to the lake of fire whilst hell is a situation via troubles.

During the Final Judgement Day, there will be 2 groups of people as far as I'm concerned. Gods people; we will be judging people as well. Jesus told us, "Do ye not know that we will judge the world?" so we will be seated as well next to God judging people after the 1,000 year period. People from the beginning of the world to the 1,000 year period will be judged. As God said, those who aren't of him (The sins I don't feel like naming because it's so long) will get cast into the lake of fire as well as with hell. So those who were in hell, they were raised up, "And the sea gave up the dead" so they left hell by God, got judged, and officially went of the lake of fire. Gods people however, will dwell on the new earth.

Also, during the 1,000 year period I'm pretty sure we will be helping others during the 1,000 years. Because at the end, the verse says that satan was released to deceive the nations one more time. So because of this, we will not be the only ones on the earth. Others will too, and those who rejected God will be the ones satan will deceive. Those will circle around the beloved city until God sends fire down from heaven to devour them. Then comes Judgement Day, God says he will divide the sheep from the goat. So not only are the raptured, the martyrs, and the 144,000 living with God, so are those who accepted him during the 1,000 year period. Like I said, everyone else goes to the lake of fire.

That's all folks!
 





shankara

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#36
It pains me that adults can believe such fairytales created to keep the masses fearful, therefore compliant. It makes no sense to punish infinitely for finite sins, the only way you can come with an idea like that is through interpreting literally the whole thing about the forbidden fruit which is quite obviously an allegory for the soul's descent into the material universe, into mortality and the duality which life consists of ("Good" and "Evil", right and left, up and down etc.).

Then you have to have the idea that everyone somehow inherits the sin of these original two people through no fault of their own and have to be saved by the means of the bloody execution of a great prophet, an idea evocative of vampirism.

And no, not believing in such a silly story doesn't mean not believing in the teachings of the Christ, it simply means rejecting vicarious atonement and recognizing that we have to do the work of ascension for ourselves and will continue to be reborn (the soul/spirit, not the ego) in this "valley of tears" until we do so. It seems worth repeating the scriptural passage I quoted above:

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."
 





Lisa

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#37
Here's the thing. There's a verse where he tell us that hell will be cast into the lake of fire.

He told us specifically not to come to conclusions on our own understanding, but of his. So I will explain this with how he taught me.

Hell is cast into the lake of fire because it's no longer a temporary place for those not of God to dwell in. However, he never said "And being in my presence, no more" This is because Gods people WILL be in his presence for eternity, the only difference is they are not sleeping because they have changed with the new immortal bodies God gave them, and now they actually live forever more with God. Allow me to restate again, the only reason hell is cast into the lake of fire is because people not of God will actually go to the lake of fire whilst hell is a situation via troubles.

During the Final Judgement Day, there will be 2 groups of people as far as I'm concerned. Gods people; we will be judging people as well. Jesus told us, "Do ye not know that we will judge the world?" so we will be seated as well next to God judging people after the 1,000 year period. People from the beginning of the world to the 1,000 year period will be judged. As God said, those who aren't of him (The sins I don't feel like naming because it's so long) will get cast into the lake of fire as well as with hell. So those who were in hell, they were raised up, "And the sea gave up the dead" so they left hell by God, got judged, and officially went of the lake of fire. Gods people however, will dwell on the new earth.

Also, during the 1,000 year period I'm pretty sure we will be helping others during the 1,000 years. Because at the end, the verse says that satan was released to deceive the nations one more time. So because of this, we will not be the only ones on the earth. Others will too, and those who rejected God will be the ones satan will deceive. Those will circle around the beloved city until God sends fire down from heaven to devour them. Then comes Judgement Day, God says he will divide the sheep from the goat. So not only are the raptured, the martyrs, and the 144,000 living with God, so are those who accepted him during the 1,000 year period. Like I said, everyone else goes to the lake of fire.

That's all folks!
Are you saying that hades is hell? Isn’t hades across from Abraham’s bosom? Acts 16:19-31.
It’s actually hades that will be cast into hell..the lake of fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

If we Christians are to be heirs with Jesus and we judge people and angels..I wonder what our judgements will be?

Are you sure it will just be the ones who rejected God? Sounds like satan is let out to again deceive the nations and they fall for it and want to fight against God...the God that they have actually seen. Jesus will rule for 1,000 years..so we will be seeing Him. Interesting how even seen, people will go against Him..reminds me of the garden where Eve was deceived and she and Adam ate the fruit. They also walked with God in the garden....coming full circle it seems.

Everyone who’s names are not written in the Lambs book of life will go to the lake of fire.
Revelation‬ ‭20:15‬ ‭
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.​
‭‭
 





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#38
Are you saying that hades is hell? Isn’t hades across from Abraham’s bosom? Acts 16:19-31.
It’s actually hades that will be cast into hell..the lake of fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

If we Christians are to be heirs with Jesus and we judge people and angels..I wonder what our judgements will be?

Are you sure it will just be the ones who rejected God? Sounds like satan is let out to again deceive the nations and they fall for it and want to fight against God...the God that they have actually seen. Jesus will rule for 1,000 years..so we will be seeing Him. Interesting how even seen, people will go against Him..reminds me of the garden where Eve was deceived and she and Adam ate the fruit. They also walked with God in the garden....coming full circle it seems.

Everyone who’s names are not written in the Lambs book of life will go to the lake of fire.
Revelation‬ ‭20:15‬ ‭​

And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.​
‭‭
Yeah, you're right. Gods peoples judgments will be the following:

1. The rapture; (Rapture definition: Harpazo, the catching away, snatching) So those who are caught up in the rapture, that is their judgment because they've been deemed worthy by the Lord, and so he keeps them from the hour of Trial. Judgment finished.

2. The martyrs (Tribulation saints as people call 'em) that stays during the tribulation and accepts Christ, while they're deemed worthy and eventually dies for their faith. dying for their faith was their judgment. Judgment finished.

3. 144,000 Israelites. They are a different group of people. They're the ones that God keeps alive while he pours his wrath on those with the mark during the Great Tribulation. They get sealed with his name on their foreheads. As soon as that happens, Judgment finished.

4. The people that lived during the 1,000 years outside the city who God chose, on Judgment Day, they will get judged and get to be with God as well as with us forever. Judgment completed.

Honestly, there's some verses in the Bible that sort of suggests otherwise, but I still stick to this unless there will be a time God teaches me something else.
 





Lisa

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#39
Yeah, you're right. Gods peoples judgments will be the following:

1. The rapture; (Rapture definition: Harpazo, the catching away, snatching) So those who are caught up in the rapture, that is their judgment because they've been deemed worthy by the Lord, and so he keeps them from the hour of Trial. Judgment finished.

2. The martyrs (Tribulation saints as people call 'em) that stays during the tribulation and accepts Christ, while they're deemed worthy and eventually dies for their faith. dying for their faith was their judgment. Judgment finished.

3. 144,000 Israelites. They are a different group of people. They're the ones that God keeps alive while he pours his wrath on those with the mark during the Great Tribulation. They get sealed with his name on their foreheads. As soon as that happens, Judgment finished.

4. The people that lived during the 1,000 years outside the city who God chose, on Judgment Day, they will get judged and get to be with God as well as with us forever. Judgment completed.

Honestly, there's some verses in the Bible that sort of suggests otherwise, but I still stick to this unless there will be a time God teaches me something else.
No...we are going to reign with Christ..He will rule with a rod of iron..so..I’m thinking that we will also be ruling like that too..so what judgements will we be making I wonder?

1. Is the rapture a judgement or an escape from God’s wrath?
2. How is dying for the faith a judgement?
3. I’m think you don’t know what judgement means...how is being sealed a judgement?
4. Everyone will get judged whether they were in the rebellion after the 1,000 years or not..even the dead will be judged at the white throne judgement.
 





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#40
Yeah, you're right. Gods peoples judgments will be the following:

1. The rapture; (Rapture definition: Harpazo, the catching away, snatching) So those who are caught up in the rapture, that is their judgment because they've been deemed worthy by the Lord, and so he keeps them from the hour of Trial. Judgment finished.

2. The martyrs (Tribulation saints as people call 'em) that stays during the tribulation and accepts Christ, while they're deemed worthy and eventually dies for their faith. dying for their faith was their judgment. Judgment finished.

3. 144,000 Israelites. They are a different group of people. They're the ones that God keeps alive while he pours his wrath on those with the mark during the Great Tribulation. They get sealed with his name on their foreheads. As soon as that happens, Judgment finished.

4. The people that lived during the 1,000 years outside the city who God chose, on Judgment Day, they will get judged and get to be with God as well as with us forever. Judgment completed.

Honestly, there's some verses in the Bible that sort of suggests otherwise, but I still stick to this unless there will be a time God teaches me something else.
Good observations, you do have to include all the verses so you can see the whole picture as opposed to a partial picture.