Theological Question

[Etagloc]

This is something I wonder about. I will try to put it into words and hopefully people see my meaning.

So let's take John A. John A is born in the projects...... his early life is horrifying. He becomes addicted to drugs and at the age of 23 he is murdered while selling drugs.

Now let's take John B. John B is born into privilige. He has everything handed to him. He commits less sin in a way than John B. However he had much less struggle.

Now..... suppose they both are believers- although imperfect- in the correct religion (Islam if you're Muslim, Christian if you're Christian)

is it possible that a person can objectively committ more sin and be more rewarded by God in the afterlife than someone who objectively committed less sin because the person who committed more sin also was objectively exposed to more suffering and temptation?

I say this because look at how poor people are often trapped in evil cycles like addiction and such things.... but the crack addict who is smoking crack..... if God is just, God has to take into account why they ended up in such a way. Because the rich person might be a saint on the outside and the poor person might be seen as evil (it is incredible how in these times of Republican Jesus it is now normal for people to hate the poor...... it is shameful and the mark of a coward to go after the vulnerable- it is a weak person trait- a strong person defends the weak) but the poor person might actually have a much better heart and the rich person might be rotten on the inside.

This is the Jesus I was taught:

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. -Mark 10:25

 

[Violette]

Socioeconomic status doesn’t correlate to sin necessarily. I definitely believe that because some poor people struggle so much they have a kinder heart, more humble but there’s also kind wealthy people that give back to those in need. There’s people who have never watched TV or know what the internet and I bet they have a better appreciation for life. I think the less you have distrctacting you from God, the better off you’ll be in the long run. If you’re saved you’re saved, the amount of sin you commit before that is washed away. If you aren’t saved it doesn’t matter if you sin a little or a lot, you will pay the price for those sins.

 

[Aero]

If God is all powerful. Than God cannot be all good. Pretty sure I just quoted Lex Luther, but I think he's on to something. Either Sin doesn't really mean anything, or each Sinner isn't equal. Think of Gaius Octavius. He was a mass murderer and ruled Rome until he was an old man. Marc Antony and Cleopatra literally sacrificed themselves. Sorry God didn't hear that. Welcome to the Roman Empire.

Tons of Roman Emperors didn't get away with that type of shit. So what gives? Oh right. What gives is, God cannot be all good! God plays favorites if you are a Titan. And I really can't put that in simpler terms. Don't listen to Republican Jesus, listen to Gnostic Jesus. Gnostic Jesus said that heaven and hell are right in front of us. Judgement or Salvation happen in real time, or maybe automatically is the better term. Gnostic Jesus didn't believe in time.

The takeaway is that Good and Evil are totally subjective. And I don't care what type of Gnosis you bring me. I already know you will bring a symbol. That I can easily invert. That's kind of the point of being a mystic. People can pretend all they want. But I know you are all practicing Mysticism. It's probably in our DNA! Thanks, Mystic Jesus

 

[AspiringSoul]

@Etagloc you already know that in islam, it is Allah who knows all things and therefore there is no case of injustice. Even the prick of a thorn is an expiation for sin or a reward. We will be judged according to our circumstances.

@Aero quite simply, if you reject the old testament God as a demiurge then by extention you reject Jesus who believed not only in that God but in all the prophets who believed in that God. If you believe in an entirely different scripture and a different Jesus, then you're being intellectually dishonest.
You're throwing out absurd examples without any direct knowledge. How do you know where Julius Ceasar or Marc Antony are? how do you know how they've been judged (if at all)? you don't know. Yet you're just throwing around baseless statements based on them.

 

[Kung Fu]

If you’re saved you’re saved, the amount of sin you commit before that is washed away. If you aren’t saved it doesn’t matter if you sin a little or a lot, you will pay the price for those sins.

Etagloc, that's your answer from a Christian point of view. Doesn't matter what John A. or John B. do because if they're Christian they're both going to Heaven. Basically your whole question is irrelevant to a Christian lol.

 

[Violette]

Etagloc, that's your answer from a Christian point of view. Doesn't matter what John A. or John B. do because if they're Christian they're both going to Heaven. Basically your whole question is irrelevant to a Christian lol.

He asked for a Christian or Islamic perspective, ignorant and missing the point like usual but that’s just to be expected of you

 

[Etagloc]

I respect both. I think God will judge us by our hearts.

 

[Kung Fu]

He asked for a Christian or Islamic perspective, ignorant and missing the point like usual but that’s just to be expected of you

You said "If you're saved your saved" not me. I missed no point and am ignorant of nothing. You might be able to play these games with people that don't know Christianity or are new to the faith but not with me.

 

[Violette]

You said "If you're saved your saved" not me. I missed no point and am ignorant of nothing. You might be able to play these games with people that don't know Christianity or are new to the faith but not with me.

You must’ve missed the point because your initial comment was unnecessary. I didn’t plan on commenting on Islamic responses because it’s not my religion yet here you are attacking mine. If you’re saved your sinful past is behind you. I don’t follow works based faith.

 

[Kung Fu]

You must’ve missed the point because your initial comment was unnecessary. I didn’t plan on commenting on Islamic responses because it’s not my religion yet here you are attacking mine. If you’re saved your sinful past is behind you. I don’t follow works based faith.

The Islamic response is pretty simple in regards to this question and even a 4 year old could understand.

I'm not attacking your religion I was merely pointing out how useless the question was when posed to Christians.

Correction if you're saved not only is your sinful past behind you so is your present and future sins behind you lol. I know you don't follow a works based faith which is why I said what I did in my first post on this thread. Please keep up.

 

[Violette]

The Islamic response is pretty simple in regards to this question and even a 4 year old could understand.

I'm not attacking your religion I was merely pointing out how useless the question was when posed to Christians.

Correction if you're saved not only is your sinful past behind you so is your present and future sins behind you lol. I know you don't follow a works based faith which is why I said what I did in my first post on this thread. Please keep up.

You’ve talked to Christians on this forum for years and allegedly read the Bible 4x yet you still clearly don’t understand my faith or the Bible. You’re the one who needs to keep up It’s honestly entertaining how confident and arrogant you are about things you either refuse to or don’t have the capacity to understand.

 

[Kung Fu]

You’ve talked to Christians on this forum for years and allegedly read the Bible 4x yet you still clearly don’t understand my faith or the Bible. You’re the one who needs to keep up It’s honestly entertaining how confident and arrogant you are about things you either refuse to or don’t have the capacity to understand.

Me precisely knowing the Bible allows me to ask these questions that not you or any other Christian seem to be able to answer without having to twist and jump through hoola hoops.

According to you "If you're saved you're saved". That explains everything one needs to know regarding this topic and how irrelevant it is in asking a Christian about sin and forgiveness because "If you're saved you're saved" lol.

 

[Aero]

@Etagloc you already know that in islam, it is Allah who knows all things and therefore there is no case of injustice. Even the prick of a thorn is an expiation for sin or a reward. We will be judged according to our circumstances.

@Aero quite simply, if you reject the old testament God as a demiurge then by extention you reject Jesus who believed not only in that God but in all the prophets who believed in that God. If you believe in an entirely different scripture and a different Jesus, then you're being intellectually dishonest.
You're throwing out absurd examples without any direct knowledge. How do you know where Julius Ceasar or Marc Antony are? how do you know how they've been judged (if at all)? you don't know. Yet you're just throwing around baseless statements based on them.

Pretty sure I haven't rejected anything. Except Republican Jesus. Although that's probably up for debate.

If that sounded absurd it's cause I failed at being ironic, or funny. Not really sure. I don't pretend like my 5 minute interpretation of the Gospel of Thomas is built out of stone. It's true that I don't know who's been judged in the after life. I can only try to witness Gods work through events and history. Ceasar got stabbed in the middle of the Senate. But it was his heir that consolidated power and birthed the Roman Empire. Just saying, for a bunch of pagans and mystics they got shit done.

The myth of the Titan isn't baseless. But we already have people here who believe in the fallen angels, and promote that sort of stuff.

 

[JoChris]

The Islamic response is pretty simple in regards to this question and even a 4 year old could understand.

I'm not attacking your religion I was merely pointing out how useless the question was when posed to Christians.

Correction if you're saved not only is your sinful past behind you so is your present and future sins behind you lol. I know you don't follow a works based faith which is why I said what I did in my first post on this thread. Please keep up.

It has already been explained to you that faith alone saves - JUSTIFICATION by faith in Jesus, no good works will save you. https://www.gotquestions.org/justification-by-faith.html

True Christians will repent of sins, grow in holiness and good works - SANCTIFICATION over a Christian's lifetime as a RESULT of faith in Jesus. https://www.gotquestions.org/progressive-sanctification.html

A true Christian will not remain in their sins, justify their sins, look for loopholes for their sins. Repentance - CHANGE of mind, turning FROM sin, turning to God. https://carm.org/what-is-repentance

An unrepentant criminal Christian is an oxymoron.
I cannot imagine a drug addict becoming a Christian who still does not make any attempt to break free of that sinful lifestyle.

 

[Kung Fu]

It has already been explained to you that faith alone saves - JUSTIFICATION by faith in Jesus, no good works will save you. https://www.gotquestions.org/justification-by-faith.html

https://www.gotquestions.org/justification-by-faith.html

I know faith alone in Jesus saves which is why I said what I said. A good chunk of you Christians have a reading comprehension. Learn how to read already.

True Christians will repent of sins, grow in holiness and good works - SANCTIFICATION over a Christian's lifetime as a RESULT of faith in Jesus. https://www.gotquestions.org/progressive-sanctification.html

https://www.gotquestions.org/progressive-sanctification.html

You either believe in Jesus as your saviour or you don't. There's nothing else in between.

A true Christian will not remain in their sins, justify their sins, look for loopholes for their sins. Repentance - CHANGE of mind, turning FROM sin, turning to God. https://carm.org/what-is-repentance

An unrepentant criminal Christian is an oxymoron.

A bunch of horse shit if ever saw it. There is no need to repent if you're already saved. Please for the love of God stop making things up.

 

[JoChris]

I know faith alone in Jesus saves which is why I said what I said. A good chunk of you Christians have a reading comprehension. Learn how to read already.


You either believe in Jesus as your saviour or you don't. There's nothing else in between.



A bunch of horse shit if ever saw it. There is no need to repent if you're already saved. Please for the love of God stop making things up.

You just proved you have no understanding of Christianity.
Use the BIBLE in CONTEXT to support your claim that I am making that up please.

 

[Violette]

Me precisely knowing the Bible allows me to ask these questions that not you or any other Christian seem to be able to answer without having to twist and jump through hoola hoops.

According to you "If you're saved you're saved". That explains everything one needs to know regarding this topic and how irrelevant it is in asking a Christian about sin and forgiveness because "If you're saved you're saved" lol.

I can see I’ll have better luck talking to a brick wall. Once you can muster the will to see past your preconceived biases we can have a real conversation. Peace

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I know faith alone in Jesus saves which is why I said what I said. A good chunk of you Christians have a reading comprehension. Learn how to read already.

You either believe in Jesus as your saviour or you don't. There's nothing else in between.

A bunch of horse shit if ever saw it. There is no need to repent if you're already saved. Please for the love of God stop making things up.

It appears you don't want to see the distinction between justification and sanctification. Perhaps the second might be more familiar to you, as works matter entirely in Islam. Certainly works do matter but for different reasons...

Justification restores our standing with God that our works alone could not do. Our sin nature as well as our particular sins are the things that separate us from God. The Cross deals with the first, our abiding in Jesus deals with the second.

The first is essential for salvation, the second for relationship and fruitfulness.

Hope this helps.

 

[SkepticCat]

http://freegiftfromgod.com/blog/2011/02/who-is-the-greatest-in-the-kingdom-of-heaven/

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+18&version=KJV

Matthew 18King James Version (KJV)
18 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

---

8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.
(Ephesians 2)

You are not justified by your actions. Your actions - your works - can never justify you. G-d loves the innocent children - who simply appreciate Creation, with awe, joy and reverence - the most. Good works are simply a product, a result, of gratitude for grace. Find your inner child!

 

[rainerann]

This is something I wonder about. I will try to put it into words and hopefully people see my meaning.

So let's take John A. John A is born in the projects...... his early life is horrifying. He becomes addicted to drugs and at the age of 23 he is murdered while selling drugs.

Now let's take John B. John B is born into privilige. He has everything handed to him. He commits less sin in a way than John B. However he had much less struggle.

Now..... suppose they both are believers- although imperfect- in the correct religion (Islam if you're Muslim, Christian if you're Christian)

is it possible that a person can objectively committ more sin and be more rewarded by God in the afterlife than someone who objectively committed less sin because the person who committed more sin also was objectively exposed to more suffering and temptation?

I say this because look at how poor people are often trapped in evil cycles like addiction and such things.... but the crack addict who is smoking crack..... if God is just, God has to take into account why they ended up in such a way. Because the rich person might be a saint on the outside and the poor person might be seen as evil (it is incredible how in these times of Republican Jesus it is now normal for people to hate the poor...... it is shameful and the mark of a coward to go after the vulnerable- it is a weak person trait- a strong person defends the weak) but the poor person might actually have a much better heart and the rich person might be rotten on the inside.

This is the Jesus I was taught:

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. -Mark 10:25

The first problem with this question is that it seeks to define the whole of the issue according to an illustration like this. In spiritual matters there is a complexity that makes describing how we are judged according to a much more abstract description in scripture. We are then to use this abstraction with discernment from the Holy Spirit to understand how this would be applied on a regular basis.

So we have someone guilty of selling drugs and someone who is simply not innocent but has not committed any specific sin to mention.

My first conclusion is that they are relatively equal as far as sin. We are saying that the one was selling drugs not murdering people. We are saying that the other is not perfect. As a result, they are relatively equal and imperfect according to this criteria.

Then, to address the aspect of being rewarded according to this degree of imperfection. The problem is that scripture does not teach us that we will be rewarded according to the number of sins we commit. It does not say there is greater reward for commiting fewer sins. We are told that we are rewarded for our spiritual endeavors, which the original question neglects to mention.

We know the one sold drugs. We know the other wasn't perfect, but we don't know whether either one of them went over and beyond what was expected of them in enduring persecutions or loving their enemies. This is the defining factor that determines reward according to faith in Christ. It is not about the number of sins you commit, it is about whether either one of them pursued spiritual things that will determine whether one will receive a greater reward than the other.

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=HCSB&quicksearch=reward&startnumber=51

This is a search of the keyword reward in BibleGateway. It will go through every time the word is mentioned in the New Testament so that you will be able to see that the reward that is spoken of in scripture is not dependent on the number of sins. Therefore, yes, the one who sold drugs is perfectly capable of recieving a greater reward according to this criteria.

However, what I think your really asking is for the person who is in the first situation. You are suggesting that there are those in these circumstances that deserve mercy, and you are right. They do deserve mercy. From this perspective, we would turn to Mark 2:17

"And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

So the person in the first situation is obviously the one that we know that Christ wants to find relief for his suffering. However, we also need to be careful because an innocent situation like the one being described is not always the case and we need to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves at all times whether we are with a rich man or a poor man recognizing that a poor man could be innocent and a wealthy man could be guilty and vice versa.