Theocracy

Discussion in 'Religion and Spirituality' started by Karlysymon, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. Karlysymon

    Karlysymon Star

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    @DesertRose posted these here and they got me asking if we're prepared to live under a theocracy. I know...its impossible, you say....but maybe its not and the West will, in the very near future turn into some sort of theocracy. I detect an undercurrent. All you have to do is take a look at some of the headlines from alternative media such as;
    President Trump Triggers Liberals On Thanksgiving & Puts 'Almighty God' Back Into Thanksgiving Proclamation After Obama Removed All Mention Of God In 2016
    Or, watching Pat Robertson, this time last year gleefully state how great it is to say 'merry christmas' again.
    Like Hedges intimated, you just need the right crisis for this to happen.
    Europe may be post-Christian but for how much longer? Immigration may have provoked the resurgence of the Right that, it seems, will make sure 'things return to normal'. For example:Poland to phase out Sunday shopping by 2020. Ofcourse the reason given is understandable, and people deserve days off work (more on Blue Laws) but what if more laws are pushed through to unite church and state.

    I also think the recent developments regarding Jerusalem, at this point in time, might have a bearing on this. Trump just emboldened an evangelical faction, cementing his presidency as a God-send and war will more than likely be waged 'in the name of God'....for they're beating ploughshares into swords, pruning hooks into spears (Joel 3:10).
     
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  2. rainerann

    rainerann Star

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    I have no idea how saying merry Christmas indicates that the us will potentially become a theocracy and hasn’t just reduced religious persecution. If we could say merry Christmas before when the us was not considered a theocracy, why would it suddenly be considered a theocracy to say merry Christmas now when it is just lifting a precept that was hindering the freedom of religion.

    I have no idea how blue laws suggest a theocracy either when we had them before and the us was not considered a theocracy at the time. Having blue laws at any point in time in the us is an exercise of our ability to customize laws. If people want to vote to have a law to not be open on sunday, they can the same way they can vote locally and at the state level to collect a tax that will benefit libraries.

    A theocracy is when religious leaders have the power to make and enforce law. No where near the same thing here. The exercise of freedom of religion does not put the us in any danger of becoming a theocracy until there is a religion that believes that religious leaders should have the authority to establish and enforce laws pressing for this. I do not see the church or most of the religions in the us ever doing this even if some people might even like government to work in their interest for selfish reasons. That is not the same as having doctrine that supports replacing a representative government with religious leaders.
     
  3. Faker He-Man

    Faker He-Man Established

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    Wait a second, do you really think that mere precepts can somehow hinder freedom of religion? If so, that is quite a conundrum you have there, if you catch my meaning.

    I wonder if the people shown in the still image for that video realize that "infidel" just means non-believer. The joke is on them I assume.

    On a related note, I saw this recently, which gave me a good laugh:
    [​IMG]
     
  4. Serveto

    Serveto Established

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    A significant portion of that European far right, though, following, among others, the avowedly anti-Christian Nietzsche, and, lately, one of the more articulate spokesmen of the movement, Alain de Benoist, is repudiating "Semitic" religion altogether, including Christianity, and is returning to its pre-Christian, pagan roots.

    To me, that is one of the more interesting, if controversial, features of the movement, and one I am occasionally watching.
     
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  5. rainerann

    rainerann Star

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    Honestly, I don't really care either way. I was in 6th grade when it changed. In school we had to start referring to Christmas break as winter break. Although, this never made much of a difference and people have been able to say Merry Christmas ever since but this doesn't suggest we are at risk of creating a theocracy because some people feel that it is important to be able to do this.

    I have always said Merry Christmas anyway and within most settings, this is permitted anyway. I could still always say it in my house even if I couldn't use the term in school. So very loosely I am associated with religious freedom because I don't feel it can be associated with a threat of creating a theocracy is the main point I am trying to make. My point is that if people were able to say Merry Christmas prior to this and America was not considered a theocracy during this time, then there is no reason to suggest that people who have the inclination to pursue the ability to say Merry Christmas again create a threat that America will become a theocracy.

    I am saying that maybe people who see this video don't know that people were always able to do this and this isn't some sort of religious fervor that is changing the direction of the government process we presently use in the US.

    However, saying Merry Christmas is really a non-issue especially since I can say it all I want in my house or in the coffee shop even. No one is going to stop me from saying Merry Christmas even if I sit in a public place like a coffee shop drinking my coffee and talking about nativity scenes. So I am not suggesting that this indicates any real persecution of religious freedom, just that it is not a threat to creating a theocracy.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  6. Faker He-Man

    Faker He-Man Established

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    It would never have been an issue in the first place if people didn't buy into this "war on christmas" nonsense. It is simple courtesy to opt for a more inclusive and socially acceptable holiday greeting for the sake of strangers or mixed company who may or may not celebrate Christmas, yet people have been duped into believing that the very notion is somehow oppressive to Christians. Saying "merry christmas" to anyone and everyone has always been very clumsy even in the past when it was more socially acceptable.
    [​IMG]
    Last week I saw a couple each wearing these matching shirts and immediately said "Happy Hanukkah". I'm not Jewish, I just wanted to see their reaction. I thought they might tell me Merry Christmas but instead they just looked confused and didn't say a word.
     
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  7. The Zone

    The Zone Veteran

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    I disagree. I would also like to add that the fringe Christian groups pictured in the vids above as well as war gun heads are not as prevalent in society as the news makes them out to be. The God Hates Fags folks are pretty much hated by Christians and non alike.

    But where I am from saying Merry Christmas has never been clumsy and it is just accepted, as is Happy Hanukkah or any other saying. It is not rude for people to say what they feel in their heart just to be politically correct.I find very few people who are offended by a simple greeting. Religious types could be just as offended by Happy Holidays. Or stores proclaiming sales X-Mas with Christ taken out.

    It is just time for people to not be so damned sensitive about things. No matter how it is framed, someone will claim belittlement but they are in fact the minority that buys into a continually forced PC culture to make us all the same bots,

    And for those afar or not living in the US - the media is constantly giving you a picture that things are worse than they are with fringe groups. For instance, the KKK has like 2000 members in the whole US these days and they come out on rare occasion. They have already died out and the few left cannot do anything other than insult people on video making one think there are thousands more who agree with them. But put them in a video or crazy Christians and there is the assumption from foreigners that what they see in the news reels is an accurate depiction.
     
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  8. rainerann

    rainerann Star

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    I really can’t say I disagree with what your saying here. Like I said, it is a nonissue to me. It just doesn’t create a threat of theocracy, but your right and the shirt is very silly. Very very silly.
     
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  9. Faker He-Man

    Faker He-Man Established

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    What I meant by "clumsy" is that it is not necessarily intentionally rude, but still inherently awkward regardless of how generally accepted it may be. It's a bit like telling someone "congratulations, when is your due date?" perfectly acceptable thing to say, right? ...but oops, turns out she is not even pregnant.

    Making any sort of implicit assumption is just clumsy despite the best of intentions. We all can do better in that regard, and not simply to avoid offending anyone, but because we desire to become more humble, more inclusive, and more self-aware.
     
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  10. Victoria

    Victoria Rookie

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    The "war on Christmas" issue is such a lovely gift to anyone who wants to make people angry over nothing and gain political capital.
     
  11. DesertRose

    DesertRose Star

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    Karly it appears that even if you do not live in a theocracy the Zionist Christians/Jews are influencing US policy.
    This video addresses this topic but is a year old. If you skip to the 5 min mark he discusses whether this is in interest of the US and that subsequently you will war with Iran at the push of these same groups.
     
  12. rainerann

    rainerann Star

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    Meanwhile, An Islamic Fifth Column Builds Inside America
    PAUL SPERRY
    In berating GOP presidential hopeful Ben Carson for suggesting a loyalty test for Muslims seeking high office, CNN host Jake Tapper maintained that he doesn't know a single observant Muslim-American who wants to Islamize America.

    "I just don't know any Muslim-Americans — and I know plenty — who feel that way, even if they are observant Muslims," he scowled.

    Tapper doesn't get out much. If he did, chances are he'd run into some of the 51% of Muslims living in the U.S. who just this June told Polling Co. they preferred having "the choice of being governed according to Shariah," or Islamic law. Or the 60% of Muslim-Americans under 30 who told Pew Research they're more loyal to Islam than America.

    Maybe they're all heretics, so let's see what the enlightened Muslims think.

    If Tapper did a little independent research he'd quickly find that America's most respected Islamic leaders and scholars also want theocracy, not democracy, and even advocate trading the Constitution for the Quran.

    These aren't fringe players. These are the top officials representing the Muslim establishment in America today.

    Hopefully none of them ever runs for president, because here's what he'd have to say about the U.S. system of government:

    Muzammil Siddiqi, chairman of both the Fiqh Council of North America, which dispenses Islamic rulings, and the North American Islamic Trust, which owns most of the mosques in the U.S.: "As Muslims, we should participate in the system to safeguard our interests and try to bring gradual change, (but) we must not forget that Allah's rules have to be established in all lands, and all our efforts should lead to that direction."

    Omar Ahmad, co-founder of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the top Muslim lobby group in Washington: "Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Quran should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth."

    CAIR spokesman Ibrahim Hooper: "I wouldn't want to create the impression that I wouldn't like the government of the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future."

    Imam Siraj Wahhaj, director of the Muslim Alliance in North America: "In time, this so-called democracy will crumble, and there will be nothing. And the only thing that will remain will be Islam."

    Imam Zaid Shakir, co-founder of Zaytuna College in Berkeley, Calif.: "If we put a nationwide infrastructure in place and marshaled our resources, we'd take over this country in a very short time. . . . What a great victory it will be for Islam to have this country in the fold and ranks of the Muslims."

    These Islamic luminaries, who arguably spend more time with Muslims than Tapper, say the American Muslim community would rather live under a theocracy.

    "Every Muslim who is honest would say, I would like to see America become a Muslim country," Shakir said.

    Why? Because Islam preaches that Allah's laws are superior to man-made laws and therefore requires the faithful to not only convert others, but also establish Islamic rule over others.

    In this, Islam is unique.

    It's a key departure from Christianity, for one, which instructs followers to respect secular leaders — rendering "unto Caesar what is Caesar's" — while living godly lives within secular societies.

    So for devout Muslims, the Quran is more than just a holy book. It's a blueprint for government.

    While Tapper's ignorance is breathtaking, it's par for the course for the inside-the-Beltway crowd.

    https://www.investors.com/politics/...islamic-fifth-column-building-inside-america/
     
  13. Faker He-Man

    Faker He-Man Established

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    That sure is a compelling slam-piece. Straight from the propaganda mill known as the Hoover Institution at Stanford, no less.

    The article conveniently contains no mention of the pressure and intimidation that Muslim secularists in the West face from the separatist groups of Jamaat ul-Fuqra. They have to be careful about publically expressing anything beyond soft-secularism, and often seem to contradict themselves on the issue, likely out of fear for their lives, which might be apparent if those quotes were presented in context. Hard-secularists tend to end up dead, so they are forced to tiptoe around it.
     
  14. Karlysymon

    Karlysymon Star

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    the timing for this is very suspect. The Israeli lobby can get whatever they want whenever, so this is definitely a trump-card. The declaration could have been made aeons ago, why now, when the region is very volatile?
     
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  15. DesertRose

    DesertRose Star

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    Rain pay attention.
    I would also rather live in an Islamic theocracy but it has to be in a land were Islam is practiced. Our jurisprudence says we have to abide by the laws of the lands we live in if we are a minority.
    There are no people in America except in the heads of the phobes that would even claim such a thing. You are the land of guns and prison and strong Jewish lobbies.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
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  16. Karlysymon

    Karlysymon Star

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    @rainerann
    Do you honestly believe that to be possible? As much as Muslims may want a theocracy in the West, i don't see it happening either forcefully or peacefully. Far right political parties are happy to say that because its only a perfect boogey-man. Here's why.
    The US is in decline but inorder to maintain a semblance of stability at home and on the world-stage, she has to be in a state of perpetual warfare. The Report from Iron Mountain clearly spells this out and it has worked great for Israel. Obviously the Middleeast is the theatre of war. If the political hierarchies of the west were ever hijacked by muslims, you can bet the Middle East will remain conflict-free. But there is a long list of entities that profit from war....Big Oil, private military contractors, weapons manufacturers etc. This is the 4th Reich. You think it would just let itself get hijacked by Islam and fade into obscurity?
    Even if that were to happen, those muslim theocracies would have to pick up from where their predecessors left off....maintain a state of perpetual warfare at home and abroad to quell dissent/stamp out opposition.
    The 4th Reich isn't going anywhere but its happy to use the threat of a muslim theocracy to divide and conquer. Any theocracy to be established in the West will be in Christian garb.


    I actually don't see some massive return to pre-Christian faiths elsewhere on the continent, except in Greece (we were talking about it here https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-greek-neopagans.845/) because there are still elements in place to support an 'indigenous' faith such as temples and what would pass for greek scriptures. Elsewhere, i don't see large numbers of people calling on Thor, Loki or Odin. So Christianity remains Europe's faith by default. Besides, Far-right parties need a uniting factor against their common enemy, Islam. Apart from race, they need Christianity to further their agenda even though party members may be anything other than Christian.

    [​IMG]
    *****
    Since 2000, in Germany, 400 catholic churches, 100 Prostestant ones have been closed. Another 700 are to be closed over the next several years.

    So, even though Islam is battling for hearts and minds on the continent, the Church willnot go down without a fight and is only happy when secular power comes to her aid to uphold her traditions.
     
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  17. DesertRose

    DesertRose Star

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    Karly I posted this on the Jerusalem thread perhaps these are the motivations and more....such as an frustration about an inability to strike at NK so he needs a win however symbolic.
    source:https://www.veteranstoday.com/2017/12/04/trump-treason/
    Will Trump set the Mideast on fire to avoid treason charges?


    By Kevin Barrett, Veterans Today Editor

    “Why now?”

    That was the question the studio production guy asked me as he was wiring up my microphone for my debate with Richard Hellman. He was referring to Trump’s threat to set the Middle East on fire by declaring Jerusalem the eternal capital of Israel.

    I explained that Trump is about to go down on treason charges. He is planning to burn down the Middle East to deflect attention away from Mike Flynn’s revelation that the Trump team, led by arch-Zionist Jared Kushner, committed treason by undermining the US position on the December 2016 UN Security Council Resolution 2334 condemning Israeli settlements. At that point Trump was not yet President. But acting treasonously on behalf of the State of Israel, Trump/Kushner ordered Flynn to lean on the Russians to get them to veto the same resolution that the US government, headed by Obama, was tacitly supporting.

    This is what Mike Flynn lied to the FBI about. It’s called treason. No need to even bother with the Logan Act.

    The Flynn prosecution offers America a much-need chance to clean house.

    Every so-called “American” acting treasonously on behalf of Israel—starting with the White House and Congress, moving down through AIPAC, the Zionists infesting the mainstream media, the 500,000-strong Zionist Power Configuration (ZPC), all the way down to the bottom feeders like my mentally and emotionally challenged debate opponent Richard Hellman— needs to be prosecuted, sentenced, and summarily dealt with. Got that, Hellman? The real patriots are coming for you. Sooner or later, in this life or the next, you genocidal scumbags are going to pay for your crimes. And now it’s looking like it just might be sooner.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
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  18. The Zone

    The Zone Veteran

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    With all due respect, as always Rose...this is a very slanted web site towards a certain take on a powerfully heated issue. I see both accuracy and inaccuracy in the work. There is no proof of treason and one must remember those who are calling for it are funded by George Soros. I am no way taking up for Trump nor stating any view on what happened yesterday. But I am pointing out that what is truly going on is complicated and not in the open or up for a single interpretation. It is just too convenient with any opposing party supporter with an axe to grind to jump on the ship when convenient. What we see in the media is never accurate and there are so man moving parts which blurs views of reality. For instance, if Trump is doing what is said in the article, than that shoots down he is being controlled by others, etc. I will continue to keep an open and objective mind as possible in the coming days as everything unfolds. I am not on a side but observing. This is why I hesitate on commenting on what is happening in Europe, for I do not live there. I have to be careful with my intake from what the media wants me to think.
     
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  19. Serveto

    Serveto Established

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    As I see it, it is a sort of de facto return to paganism, especially among those who want to be rid of "Semitic" therefore "Asiatic" religion -Judaism, Christianity and Islam alike- which, to many of them, is by definition corrupting, both racially and ideologically. It is not a return to the wholesale reestablishment of the pagan rites and rituals as such. That latter stuff is left to the often disparaged "New Ageists," cultists, Americans (;)) and those of their type.

    Alain de Benoist, for instance, who is not only a pagan apologist but also an intellectual force within the Nouvelle Droite, or New Right, in a way seems to suggest that European "post-Christianity" is "pre-Christianity." In the century past, T.S. Eliot wrote:

    We shall not cease from exploration
    And the end of all our exploring
    Will be to arrive where we started
    And know the place for the first time
    Through the unknown, unremembered gate

    As well, and speaking of the "Fourth Reich," its predecessor, the Third Reich, contained many of these same radically anti-Christian, and of course anti-Semitic elements, and was, as I see it, in large part, not a repeat but rather a recrudescence of ancient, pagan norms, with a vengeance. Those ideas are with us still, especially on the European continent.
     
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  20. DesertRose

    DesertRose Star

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    Article by Judge Napolitano highlights that Trump is in trouble legally and I would put forth the argument that his policy is rash and irrational from an 'America First' view point.In other words there is nothing America first about his decision regarding Jerusalem it will break the US economy and empire through more wars in that region.
    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2017/12/andrew-p-napolitano/the-general-and-the-president/

    Concludes with:
    Obstruction of justice is the rare federal crime that need not succeed to be criminal and prosecutable. It is also the rare federal crime that nearly all legal scholars agree is an impeachable offense. The president’s lawyers are not among them. They have argued that because the president is the chief federal law enforcement officer in the land, his decisions on whom to prosecute are final and always lawful. That sounds like former President Richard Nixon’s now fully discredited argument that “when the president does it, that means that it is not illegal.”

    In America, the president is a public servant, not a prince. Is the president in legal hot water? In a word: yes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017

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