Theists: What would a godless universe look like?

TagliatelliMonster

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The effort one has to put in on these forums to get a pertinent reply is incredible.
Thank you

How you fill in the uncaused cause was not the question. Do you then agree that there ought to be an uncaused cause?
That's an argument from ignorance right out the gates.

You're going to assume that some proposition (everything has a cause) is correct "until" you can prove otherwise.

Textbook argument from ignorance.

Having said that, causality at the macroscopic level (newtonian physics, if you wish) is subject to the physics of the universe. The physics of the universe, apply IN the universe.

So you can't extrapolate the laws of physics as they manifest IN the universe and pretend as if they also apply "outside" of the universe, or "absent" the universe.

Lastly, causality is 100% a temporal phenomenon. Effects happen AFTER causes. Causes happen BEFORE effects. First a cause happens and then, later in time, the effect manifests.

Removing the universe would effectively remove the time dimension of the universe.
Meaning that temporal physics no longer apply.

So unless you can somehow show that absent the space-time continuum, there STILL exists some time dimension, causality goes out the window along with the universe itself.

Therefor, when talking about the very origins of the universe (ie, the process of going from NO universe, to a universe), causality simply is not a phenomenon that can be invoked. Because it doesn't exist yet.
 
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You said the uncaused cause concept failed in the defining of said uncaused cause. I would infer from that that you agree with the concept of an uncaused cause.

It’s not an argument from ignorance. It’s a logical conclusion.

I agree that causality implies the existence of the time dimension, which is subject to the physical laws of our universe. BUT, that does not mean that the uncaused cause is subject to those laws. In fact, the infinite nature of the uncaused cause is an essential prerequisite to BE the uncaused cause. The uncaused cause, since it is by definition infinite and uncaused, is thus not subject to time, neither does it negate that that which is caused is not subject to time.

And you have still not given a straightforward answer to this question:
Are you open to the possibility of something existing outside our observable Universe, other than more universes?
 

Mr.Anderson

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You knew the watch was designed because you contrasted it to everything around it, which was not designed. Otherwise, the watch would have no significance to you in that regard. You also have evidence of the existence of watchmakers. You can go to a factory and see a watch being manufactured.
This argument has been debunked long ago.
Well, it makes sense to have a God in this universe in the same way that there is a difference between a clusterf*ck of cells called teratoma and a normal human being. Both are composed of the same parts but one does carry information and the other does not.

It's more about sense than anything else.

For information to exist it must need to have a receiver and an emissary. Back to the watch example you said the watch contrast everything else so you know it is designed, the same goes for a car and the woods and the same goes for a teratoma and us.

And besides for the raw materials i'm pretty sure you can see pretty much everything on earth being formed in some kind of way.

So, to sum it up. The universe has information to it, this information has to come from somewhere otherwise it wouldn't be information and wouldn't have sense. It is quite fair to assume that this information and this sense has come from God or otherwise it would be a huge blog of nothing. I mean, just look at this text i'm sending you. Its pretty much the same thing. Otherwise it would be like this: qwieuhdsajkfn weçro~ vpoqwenm,dmq hweoiu qwek kjbvt tjwer12305 masd


(even so, a teratoma has some info to it, but in this example just consider it a clump of cells and not a baby, ok?)
 

Mr.Anderson

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This is not a trivial subject. People literally die when their lives lose their sense. In a universe without God things would have no meaning. Even if the randomness somehow ended making up a place similar to ours the death of the creator would surely ensure the death of the creation. Nietzsche has struggled with this kind of tought for most of his life.
 
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