The Zionist story

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#61
Yeah it's true people do have the tendency to ignore the actual subject before them and retreat into various kinds of projections, religious ones included. I figure that here we're supposed to be discussing whether or not what Israel does and has done is ethical. It might be that there is some kind of prophecy according to some particular interpretation of a spiritual text, that doesn't have any bearing on whether or not the way Israel behaves is correct and justified, right? Prophecy is not an excuse.
Last comment - Israel is criticised for being unethical but as anyone with problem neighbours will know, there is often another side to the story.

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/“peace-to-prosperity”.5874/page-9#post-228856
 





shankara

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#62
Last comment - Israel is criticised for being unethical but as anyone with problem neighbours will know, there is often another side to the story.

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/“peace-to-prosperity”.5874/page-9#post-228856
Yeah this kind of bellicose rhetoric isn't particularly helpful. There are however millions of Palestinians currently in refugee camps who should have the right to return to the lands they were driven out of during the Nakba, a process which merits the name of ethnic cleansing. Obviously the way of fighting the occupation with violence is very unintelligent and in the end only gives the Israelis more ammunition (pun about illegal exploding bullets intended) in their combat to repress the Palestinian people.

It's possible to go around in circles on this subject but for me it all becomes quite clear when we look at the question of proportionality. An Israeli soldier shot a disarmed attacker in the head when he lay on the ground and received nine months in prison, which was too much for some of the more rabid Zionists. On the other hand the Palestinian girl who slapped a soldier received something like eighteen months (EDIT: Ahed Tamini, the girl who slapped a soldier among those who shot her cousin in the head with a rubber bullet, recieved an eight month sentence). "Politically motivated stone-throwing" is punishable by a minimum of three years. HAMAS occasionally fire rockets, which isn't right or wise, but an order of magnitude more are killed by Israeli air strikes and worse, shooting at protestors including medics and journalists with ammunition that no country with any humanity would use even in a situation of war (which the "Great March Of Return" certainly wasn't).

There are tons of stories out there like this one: https://israelpalestinenews.org/protest-dispersed-israeli-sniper-shot-boy-in-head/ , doesn't take much effort to find them.

Also this thing you linked to makes me think about what someone was saying on here about Abbas being a stooge for the Israelis. I mean, it's pretty obvious that the kind of things he was saying aren't likely to be particularly beneficial to the Palestinian cause. But whether there's some conspiracy or not, the facts on the ground tell a sad story of occupation and oppression.
 





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#63
You Jews always tell the truth, be it about Porn Industry, 9/11, Epstein, Jimmy Seville, Freemasonry, Immigration, Bolshevik (jewish) revolution, Child Abuse, GMOs, Chemtrails, the Rothchilds etc...

so you must be telling the truth about Palestine too.
These kinds of sentiments are as old as hell. “The Juwes are the men who will not be blamed for nothing,” and, “Come on, let us deal wisely with them; lest they multiply, and it come to pass, that, when there falleth out any war, they join also unto our enemies.”

Satanic hatred of the Jews based on lies. Don’t be a mouthpiece of the devil.
 





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#64
Yeah it's true people do have the tendency to ignore the actual subject before them and retreat into various kinds of projections, religious ones included. I figure that here we're supposed to be discussing whether or not what Israel does and has done is ethical. It might be that there is some kind of prophecy according to some particular interpretation of a spiritual text, that doesn't have any bearing on whether or not the way Israel behaves is correct and justified, right? Prophecy is not an excuse.
Israel’s claim to the land today is based on clear ownership. They are the indigenous people, who through 2000 years looked to Jerusalem as their home. Have you ever heard it said by Jews to each other, “Next year in Jerusalem”? Probably not, but it’s one of the most ancient toasts in the world, and was a hope and a prayer among Jews for the thousands of years they were apart from their land.

Jews didn’t displace anyone when they began to return to Palestine. They bought and reclaimed the land they could get, and it wasn’t until Israel was attacked that they regained Jerusalem. By any legal international standards, Israel has the right to the land they have.

I don’t need the Bible to tell me that the modern state of Israel is hated for no good reason, just as Jews have been throughout history.

Whether a person believes in God or not, two things can be in no doubt:

1) Historically, the Jews have been the object of a disproportionate amount of hatred and persecution.

2) Despite this, they are still around.

I can attribute the hate Israel has received and their preservation through thousands of years of persecution to Satan’s hatred of God, and to God’s protection of the people by which he has blessed and will bless mankind, but I’d be interested in how unbelievers account for it.

I know a lot of antisemites, including ones who believe in God, will say:

1) Jews are hated because they’re evil.

2) Jews have so far escaped justice by pogrom/holocaust/UN ruling because they control everything, because they’re evil.

You’d think, with all the Jew-hating that’s going around, it would be based on more than those two lies, but that’s really what it amounts to.
 





shankara

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#65
Israel’s claim to the land today is based on clear ownership. They are the indigenous people, who through 2000 years looked to Jerusalem as their home. Have you ever heard it said by Jews to each other, “Next year in Jerusalem”? Probably not, but it’s one of the most ancient toasts in the world, and was a hope and a prayer among Jews for the thousands of years they were apart from their land.

Jews didn’t displace anyone when they began to return to Palestine. They bought and reclaimed the land they could get, and it wasn’t until Israel was attacked that they regained Jerusalem. By any legal international standards, Israel has the right to the land they have.
You say "Jews didn’t displace anyone when they began to return to Palestine". If you mean before 1948 you might have a point, except that before 1948 they controlled the less than 7% of the territory that they'd managed to buy. The rest was basically gained by force, i.e. during the Nakba.

So saying that they "didn't displace anyone" is beyond absurd. For one there are the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who fled during the Nakba. Not to mention the settlers who are right at this moment displacing people. Or all the Palestinian houses knocked down for "archaeological" reasons.

As for "Israel has the right", the fact of occupying some land thousands of years ago, even if it's in your holy book, doesn't make it yours. Perhaps if they recognized that the Palestinians have continuously occupied the territory for more than a thousand years and treated them as equal citizens then ok. Rather they have created an apartheid state based on physical force, superior armaments and a policy of repression.

As for this business of "legal international standards", it's pretty clear that they started the '67 war with a preemptive strike against the Egyptian air force. The whole thing about the Egyptian maritime blockade isn't a reasonable excuse, if that were so then HAMAS would be within their rights in attacking Israel with rockets, seeing as a maritime (and terrestrial) blockade is imposed on Gaza. They then kept the territory they occupied and settled people there.

Also I don't think that there is any standard in international law like "we lived there two thousand years ago so it's ours". Imagine what the world would look like if that were the case...
I don’t need the Bible to tell me that the modern state of Israel is hated for no good reason, just as Jews have been throughout history.

Whether a person believes in God or not, two things can be in no doubt:

1) Historically, the Jews have been the object of a disproportionate amount of hatred and persecution.

2) Despite this, they are still around.

I can attribute the hate Israel has received and their preservation through thousands of years of persecution to Satan’s hatred of God, and to God’s protection of the people by which he has blessed and will bless mankind, but I’d be interested in how unbelievers account for it.

I know a lot of antisemites, including ones who believe in God, will say:

1) Jews are hated because they’re evil.

2) Jews have so far escaped justice by pogrom/holocaust/UN ruling because they control everything, because they’re evil.

You’d think, with all the Jew-hating that’s going around, it would be based on more than those two lies, but that’s really what it amounts to.
I think the reasons for having a problem with Israel are pretty clear, for example in relation to the "Great March Of Return":
"In late February 2019, a United Nations Human Rights Council's independent commission found that of 489 cases of Palestinian deaths or injuries analysed only two were possibly justified as responses to danger by Israeli security forces, deeming the rest illegal, and concluded with a recommendation calling on Israel to examine whether war crimes or crimes against humanity had been committed, and if so, to bring those responsible to trial."

This is one example among many. Are you saying that organizations like the UN are biased or racist?

Though I do think you may be right in the sense that people pay attention only to Palestine when there are other situations of repression going on. Tibet, for example.
 





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#66
These kinds of sentiments are as old as hell. “The Juwes are the men who will not be blamed for nothing,” and, “Come on, let us deal wisely with them; lest they multiply, and it come to pass, that, when there falleth out any war, they join also unto our enemies.”

Satanic hatred of the Jews based on lies. Don’t be a mouthpiece of the devil.
who is a 24/7 mouthpiece of whom is well known in this forum.

but as I mentioned; You Jews always tell the truth, be it about Porn Industry, 9/11, Epstein, Jimmy Seville, Freemasonry, Immigration, Bolshevik (jewish) revolution, Child Abuse, GMOs, Chemtrails, the Rothchilds, Palestine etc...

so you must be telling the truth about every comment here.
 





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#67
Last comment - Israel is criticised for being unethical but as anyone with problem neighbours will know, there is often another side to the story.

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/“peace-to-prosperity”.5874/page-9#post-228856
You are showing your true colors, slowly and gradually, Jesus must be proud of you, but no he is NOT.

The conflict was started and still being fueled by the Israeli Jews, so there is no other side to the story.

but that does not matter to you because it is you who has another side to you.
 





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#68
You are showing your true colors, slowly and gradually, Jesus must be proud of you, but no he is NOT.

The conflict was started and still being fueled by the Israeli Jews, so there is no other side to the story.

but that does not matter to you because it is you who has another side to you.
I think it is good when people are honest about what they think! For a more nuanced reply, this post sums up how I see things with respect to Israel...

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.c...newed-temple-service.4421/page-21#post-226810
 





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#69
I think it is good when people are honest about what they think! For a more nuanced reply, this post sums up how I see things with respect to Israel...

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.c...newed-temple-service.4421/page-21#post-226810
You are as honest as Pharaoh. you reveal what is in your heart.

you are either with Pharaoh or with the oppressed children of Israel (Jacob), you cannot side with Pharaoh saying there is another side to the story.

you are either with Moses or with Pharaoh, there is no other side to their story.

you may blame the children of Israel for their plight but you cannot side with Pharaoh and his people for their brutal, bloody, inhuman oppression of hapless Israelites (and in this case Palestinians).

Yes there is something God wants to show the world, that God will punish those who have hoarded money and gold (the Jews) for thousands of years yet they dont help the poor and the needy rather they bring chaos to the world (pornography, lesbianism and gayhood, forced immigration, murderings/wars, mk-ultra, police brutality, vaccines to kill the innocent, censorship, satanism).
wait for it, ther punishment is nigh.
 





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#70
You are as honest as Pharaoh. you reveal what is in your heart.

you are either with Pharaoh or with the oppressed children of Israel (Jacob), you cannot side with Pharaoh saying there is another side to the story.

you are either with Moses or with Pharaoh, there is no other side to their story.

you may blame the children of Israel for their plight but you cannot side with Pharaoh and his people for their brutal, bloody, inhuman oppression of hapless Israelites (and in this case Palestinians).

Yes there is something God wants to show the world, that God will punish those who have hoarded money and gold (the Jews) for thousands of years yet they dont help the poor and the needy rather they bring chaos to the world (pornography, lesbianism and gayhood, forced immigration, murderings/wars, mk-ultra, police brutality, vaccines to kill the innocent, censorship, satanism).
wait for it, ther punishment is nigh.
Dear @friend

I have long noticed that simplistic black and white answers and blanket statements are often more attractive than more analytical posts.
 





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#71
You are as honest as Pharaoh. you reveal what is in your heart.

you are either with Pharaoh or with the oppressed children of Israel (Jacob), you cannot side with Pharaoh saying there is another side to the story.

you are either with Moses or with Pharaoh, there is no other side to their story.

you may blame the children of Israel for their plight but you cannot side with Pharaoh and his people for their brutal, bloody, inhuman oppression of hapless Israelites (and in this case Palestinians).

Yes there is something God wants to show the world, that God will punish those who have hoarded money and gold (the Jews) for thousands of years yet they dont help the poor and the needy rather they bring chaos to the world (pornography, lesbianism and gayhood, forced immigration, murderings/wars, mk-ultra, police brutality, vaccines to kill the innocent, censorship, satanism).
wait for it, ther punishment is nigh.
Btw - am I right in supposing that in your view, Israel has now metaphorically become Pharaoh? What has happened to Israel then?

What gives me pause over all the anti-Israel polemic is the question of any perceived advantage to being a Jew throughout the last 2000 years. Marked by circumcision, often hated by Christians and Muslims in equal measure and frequently culturally shunned and segregated, the “chosen” people often had a tough time.

I think it would be an interesting thread in which to explore this historical and cultural context of the Jews. No doubt there will be shouty voices from all sides but I do believe there are some solid, uncontested historical moments that are clearly steps in the “story of Zion”, even if they prove to be “inconvenient truths”.
 





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#73
Btw - am I right in supposing that in your view, Israel has now metaphorically become Pharaoh? What has happened to Israel then?

What gives me pause over all the anti-Israel polemic is the question of any perceived advantage to being a Jew throughout the last 2000 years. Marked by circumcision, often hated by Christians and Muslims in equal measure and frequently culturally shunned and segregated, the “chosen” people often had a tough time.

I think it would be an interesting thread in which to explore this historical and cultural context of the Jews. No doubt there will be shouty voices from all sides but I do believe there are some solid, uncontested historical moments that are clearly steps in the “story of Zion”, even if they prove to be “inconvenient truths”.
Pharaoh is not a person, it is an ideology, an trait, a behavior and a team. Pharaoh is dead but the likes of him live in our time with money, power, propaganda.

Jews pay for their sins, their rejecting Jesus, the messenger of God.
Jews pay for their worship of the calf (or heifer)
Jews pay for hoarding money/gold and not spending it in good to please The One Who gave them that money/gold.
Jews pay for their mischief on earth while they were ordered to spread peace and good on earth. (pornography, lesbianism and gayhood, forced immigration, murderings/wars, chemtrails, mk-ultra, police brutality, vaccines to kill the innocent, censorship, satanism)

inconvenient lies put in the holy texts. there is enough proof that the Jewish and Christian holy texts have fabrications in them and we will witness more in the future.
 





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#75
Pharaoh is not a person, it is an ideology, an trait, a behavior and a team.
Agree.

inconvenient lies put in the holy texts. there is enough proof that the Jewish and Christian holy texts have fabrications in them and we will witness more in the future.
Disagree. The original texts are sound.. but scribes and religious leaders write their own meanings of the texts, over the texts with no holy wisdom. In the book of Revelation there is a huge curse on this.. as well as in the Quran.. even in Islam scholars have altered the meanings of the text with their own words, not the actual texts... with no holy wisdom

Ahhhhhh.. teachers :rolleyes:
 





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#76
Disagree. The original texts are sound.. but scribes and religious leaders write their own meanings of the texts, over the texts with no holy wisdom. In the book of Revelation there is a huge curse on this.. as well as in the Quran.. even in Islam scholars have altered the meanings of the text with their own words, not the actual texts... with no holy wisdom

Ahhhhhh.. teachers :rolleyes:
The fabrication of the Begotten Son
in John 3:16 there is a famous fabrication agreed upon by Christian scholarship.

The fabrication of Trinity
The only verse indicating trinity (the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one) has been removed from the bible by 32 scholars of the bible in the Revised Standard Version among many other verses as fabrication after they realized that these verses do not exist in the most ancient manuscript and as such there is not a single verse indicating Trinity anymore in the complete bible.
John A-V {5:7} For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (This verse does not exist anymore in the RSV)

The Christian holy texts face two problems :
1 - its original text has been altered/fabricated/omitted by the scribes/religious leaders
2 - scribes/religious leaders and people twist the meaning of the verses.

The Holy Quran has one challenge and that is twisting the meaning of the verses by people without divine authority. thats why we see fanatics like ISIS, Alqaeda, Taliban, boki haram etc...
 





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#77
The fabrication of the Begotten Son
in John 3:16 there is a famous fabrication agreed upon by Christian scholarship.

The fabrication of Trinity
The only verse indicating trinity (the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one) has been removed from the bible by 32 scholars of the bible in the Revised Standard Version among many other verses as fabrication after they realized that these verses do not exist in the most ancient manuscript and as such there is not a single verse indicating Trinity anymore in the complete bible.
John A-V {5:7} For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (This verse does not exist anymore in the RSV)

The Christian holy texts face two problems :
1 - its original text has been altered/fabricated/omitted by the scribes/religious leaders
2 - scribes/religious leaders and people twist the meaning of the verses.

The Holy Quran has one challenge and that is twisting the meaning of the verses by people without divine authority. thats why we see fanatics like ISIS, Alqaeda, Taliban, boki haram etc...
When citing the Bible, I meant the original texts, not translations.
RE: The Quran. Translations with brackets after stated passages to add meaning by scholars is also altering original text. There are no statements (with brackets explaining statements by scholars) in original Quran text, unlike translations
 





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#78
When citing the Bible, I meant the original texts, not translations.
RE: The Quran. Translations with brackets after stated passages to add meaning by scholars is also altering original text. There are no statements (with brackets explaining statements by scholars) in original Quran text, unlike translations
i too meant the original bible texts - but the problem is - there is none. all of them are from people other than Jesus.

as @Infinityloop put it:
The thing is that there is not even anything to corrupt. Where in the Bible is there direct revelation? none, it's all third or secondary historical summary accounts
 





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#79
i too meant the original bible texts - but the problem is - there is none. all of them are from people other than Jesus.

as @Infinityloop put it:
IDK how this thread got turned into a religious debate about Christianity vs Islam (both of whom are suffering under Zionist occupation and colonization in Palestine btw..) instead of talking about Zionism.. but if you want to have that debate I think it should be in the religion spirituality category, not a thread about Zionist occupation
 





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#80
IDK how this thread got turned into a religious debate about Christianity vs Islam (both of whom are suffering under Zionist occupation and colonization in Palestine btw..) instead of talking about Zionism.. but if you want to have that debate I think it should be in the religion spirituality category, not a thread about Zionist occupation
I have picked up where these comments and observations reached and copied them across here:-

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.c...muslim-texts-compared.6196/page-2#post-229805