The Zionist story

Thunderian

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Yeah it's true people do have the tendency to ignore the actual subject before them and retreat into various kinds of projections, religious ones included. I figure that here we're supposed to be discussing whether or not what Israel does and has done is ethical. It might be that there is some kind of prophecy according to some particular interpretation of a spiritual text, that doesn't have any bearing on whether or not the way Israel behaves is correct and justified, right? Prophecy is not an excuse.
Israel’s claim to the land today is based on clear ownership. They are the indigenous people, who through 2000 years looked to Jerusalem as their home. Have you ever heard it said by Jews to each other, “Next year in Jerusalem”? Probably not, but it’s one of the most ancient toasts in the world, and was a hope and a prayer among Jews for the thousands of years they were apart from their land.

Jews didn’t displace anyone when they began to return to Palestine. They bought and reclaimed the land they could get, and it wasn’t until Israel was attacked that they regained Jerusalem. By any legal international standards, Israel has the right to the land they have.

I don’t need the Bible to tell me that the modern state of Israel is hated for no good reason, just as Jews have been throughout history.

Whether a person believes in God or not, two things can be in no doubt:

1) Historically, the Jews have been the object of a disproportionate amount of hatred and persecution.

2) Despite this, they are still around.

I can attribute the hate Israel has received and their preservation through thousands of years of persecution to Satan’s hatred of God, and to God’s protection of the people by which he has blessed and will bless mankind, but I’d be interested in how unbelievers account for it.

I know a lot of antisemites, including ones who believe in God, will say:

1) Jews are hated because they’re evil.

2) Jews have so far escaped justice by pogrom/holocaust/UN ruling because they control everything, because they’re evil.

You’d think, with all the Jew-hating that’s going around, it would be based on more than those two lies, but that’s really what it amounts to.
 

shankara

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Israel’s claim to the land today is based on clear ownership. They are the indigenous people, who through 2000 years looked to Jerusalem as their home. Have you ever heard it said by Jews to each other, “Next year in Jerusalem”? Probably not, but it’s one of the most ancient toasts in the world, and was a hope and a prayer among Jews for the thousands of years they were apart from their land.

Jews didn’t displace anyone when they began to return to Palestine. They bought and reclaimed the land they could get, and it wasn’t until Israel was attacked that they regained Jerusalem. By any legal international standards, Israel has the right to the land they have.
You say "Jews didn’t displace anyone when they began to return to Palestine". If you mean before 1948 you might have a point, except that before 1948 they controlled the less than 7% of the territory that they'd managed to buy. The rest was basically gained by force, i.e. during the Nakba.

So saying that they "didn't displace anyone" is beyond absurd. For one there are the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who fled during the Nakba. Not to mention the settlers who are right at this moment displacing people. Or all the Palestinian houses knocked down for "archaeological" reasons.

As for "Israel has the right", the fact of occupying some land thousands of years ago, even if it's in your holy book, doesn't make it yours. Perhaps if they recognized that the Palestinians have continuously occupied the territory for more than a thousand years and treated them as equal citizens then ok. Rather they have created an apartheid state based on physical force, superior armaments and a policy of repression.

As for this business of "legal international standards", it's pretty clear that they started the '67 war with a preemptive strike against the Egyptian air force. The whole thing about the Egyptian maritime blockade isn't a reasonable excuse, if that were so then HAMAS would be within their rights in attacking Israel with rockets, seeing as a maritime (and terrestrial) blockade is imposed on Gaza. They then kept the territory they occupied and settled people there.

Also I don't think that there is any standard in international law like "we lived there two thousand years ago so it's ours". Imagine what the world would look like if that were the case...
I don’t need the Bible to tell me that the modern state of Israel is hated for no good reason, just as Jews have been throughout history.

Whether a person believes in God or not, two things can be in no doubt:

1) Historically, the Jews have been the object of a disproportionate amount of hatred and persecution.

2) Despite this, they are still around.

I can attribute the hate Israel has received and their preservation through thousands of years of persecution to Satan’s hatred of God, and to God’s protection of the people by which he has blessed and will bless mankind, but I’d be interested in how unbelievers account for it.

I know a lot of antisemites, including ones who believe in God, will say:

1) Jews are hated because they’re evil.

2) Jews have so far escaped justice by pogrom/holocaust/UN ruling because they control everything, because they’re evil.

You’d think, with all the Jew-hating that’s going around, it would be based on more than those two lies, but that’s really what it amounts to.
I think the reasons for having a problem with Israel are pretty clear, for example in relation to the "Great March Of Return":
"In late February 2019, a United Nations Human Rights Council's independent commission found that of 489 cases of Palestinian deaths or injuries analysed only two were possibly justified as responses to danger by Israeli security forces, deeming the rest illegal, and concluded with a recommendation calling on Israel to examine whether war crimes or crimes against humanity had been committed, and if so, to bring those responsible to trial."

This is one example among many. Are you saying that organizations like the UN are biased or racist?

Though I do think you may be right in the sense that people pay attention only to Palestine when there are other situations of repression going on. Tibet, for example.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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You are showing your true colors, slowly and gradually, Jesus must be proud of you, but no he is NOT.

The conflict was started and still being fueled by the Israeli Jews, so there is no other side to the story.

but that does not matter to you because it is you who has another side to you.
I think it is good when people are honest about what they think! For a more nuanced reply, this post sums up how I see things with respect to Israel...

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/red-heifer-birth-paves-way-for-renewed-temple-service.4421/page-21#post-226810
 

Red Sky at Morning

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You are as honest as Pharaoh. you reveal what is in your heart.

you are either with Pharaoh or with the oppressed children of Israel (Jacob), you cannot side with Pharaoh saying there is another side to the story.

you are either with Moses or with Pharaoh, there is no other side to their story.

you may blame the children of Israel for their plight but you cannot side with Pharaoh and his people for their brutal, bloody, inhuman oppression of hapless Israelites (and in this case Palestinians).

Yes there is something God wants to show the world, that God will punish those who have hoarded money and gold (the Jews) for thousands of years yet they dont help the poor and the needy rather they bring chaos to the world (pornography, lesbianism and gayhood, forced immigration, murderings/wars, mk-ultra, police brutality, vaccines to kill the innocent, censorship, satanism).
wait for it, ther punishment is nigh.
Dear @friend

I have long noticed that simplistic black and white answers and blanket statements are often more attractive than more analytical posts.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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You are as honest as Pharaoh. you reveal what is in your heart.

you are either with Pharaoh or with the oppressed children of Israel (Jacob), you cannot side with Pharaoh saying there is another side to the story.

you are either with Moses or with Pharaoh, there is no other side to their story.

you may blame the children of Israel for their plight but you cannot side with Pharaoh and his people for their brutal, bloody, inhuman oppression of hapless Israelites (and in this case Palestinians).

Yes there is something God wants to show the world, that God will punish those who have hoarded money and gold (the Jews) for thousands of years yet they dont help the poor and the needy rather they bring chaos to the world (pornography, lesbianism and gayhood, forced immigration, murderings/wars, mk-ultra, police brutality, vaccines to kill the innocent, censorship, satanism).
wait for it, ther punishment is nigh.
Btw - am I right in supposing that in your view, Israel has now metaphorically become Pharaoh? What has happened to Israel then?

What gives me pause over all the anti-Israel polemic is the question of any perceived advantage to being a Jew throughout the last 2000 years. Marked by circumcision, often hated by Christians and Muslims in equal measure and frequently culturally shunned and segregated, the “chosen” people often had a tough time.

I think it would be an interesting thread in which to explore this historical and cultural context of the Jews. No doubt there will be shouty voices from all sides but I do believe there are some solid, uncontested historical moments that are clearly steps in the “story of Zion”, even if they prove to be “inconvenient truths”.
 

Stephania

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Pharaoh is not a person, it is an ideology, an trait, a behavior and a team.
Agree.

inconvenient lies put in the holy texts. there is enough proof that the Jewish and Christian holy texts have fabrications in them and we will witness more in the future.
Disagree. The original texts are sound.. but scribes and religious leaders write their own meanings of the texts, over the texts with no holy wisdom. In the book of Revelation there is a huge curse on this.. as well as in the Quran.. even in Islam scholars have altered the meanings of the text with their own words, not the actual texts... with no holy wisdom

Ahhhhhh.. teachers :rolleyes:
 

Stephania

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The fabrication of the Begotten Son
in John 3:16 there is a famous fabrication agreed upon by Christian scholarship.

The fabrication of Trinity
The only verse indicating trinity (the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one) has been removed from the bible by 32 scholars of the bible in the Revised Standard Version among many other verses as fabrication after they realized that these verses do not exist in the most ancient manuscript and as such there is not a single verse indicating Trinity anymore in the complete bible.
John A-V {5:7} For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (This verse does not exist anymore in the RSV)

The Christian holy texts face two problems :
1 - its original text has been altered/fabricated/omitted by the scribes/religious leaders
2 - scribes/religious leaders and people twist the meaning of the verses.

The Holy Quran has one challenge and that is twisting the meaning of the verses by people without divine authority. thats why we see fanatics like ISIS, Alqaeda, Taliban, boki haram etc...
When citing the Bible, I meant the original texts, not translations.
RE: The Quran. Translations with brackets after stated passages to add meaning by scholars is also altering original text. There are no statements (with brackets explaining statements by scholars) in original Quran text, unlike translations
 

Stephania

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i too meant the original bible texts - but the problem is - there is none. all of them are from people other than Jesus.

as @Infinityloop put it:
IDK how this thread got turned into a religious debate about Christianity vs Islam (both of whom are suffering under Zionist occupation and colonization in Palestine btw..) instead of talking about Zionism.. but if you want to have that debate I think it should be in the religion spirituality category, not a thread about Zionist occupation
 

Red Sky at Morning

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IDK how this thread got turned into a religious debate about Christianity vs Islam (both of whom are suffering under Zionist occupation and colonization in Palestine btw..) instead of talking about Zionism.. but if you want to have that debate I think it should be in the religion spirituality category, not a thread about Zionist occupation
I have picked up where these comments and observations reached and copied them across here:-

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-reliability-of-christian-and-muslim-texts-compared.6196/page-2#post-229805
 

Thunderian

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Found this comparison of casualties on the Palestinian and Israeli sides...

https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
Palestinian always inflate their casualty totals, and the media plays along.

The way it works is like this. Every death in Gaza is blamed on Israel. Get hit and killed by a bus? Israel’s fault. Die of old age? Israel again. Executed by Hamas? You know how it goes.

Remember that Palestinian baby that supposedly choked to death from Zionist tear gas awhile back? The baby’s own doctors set the record straight about her cause of death. It was from a blood disease, not tear gas. The media, which had been giving lavish coverage of the baby’s death until then, suddenly lost interest.

Then we heard that an Israeli rocket had killed a mother and her baby. Whoops, turns out it was an Islamic Jihad rocket that went off course. Hey, I thought Palestinian rockets were supposed to be harmless. Anyway, the media again lost interest when it became known that, once more, Palestinians were dead, but Israel wasn't doing the killing.

Now, think about those two stories for a second, and compare them with the conventional trope that “Zionazis kill Palestinian babies!” Unless I am counting wrong, that's exactly two Palestinian baby deaths that have actually been reported as being Israel's fault, and both times, Israel had nothing to do with it. You'd think, wouldn't you, that if Israel was constantly killing any innocent Palestinians, young or old, we'd be hearing more about it?

The media, which I am told is owned and operated by Zionists, do keep reporting that innocent Palestinians are being killed during the regular "spontaneous" Gaza fence riots demonstrations. But investigation almost always shows that the Palestinians who died during these "peaceful" protests were young men, and members of either Hamas or Islamic Jihad, both of which are violent terrorist organizations. Hamas and IJ often make it very easy to identify these dead man as terrorists by releasing their official freedom fighter collectors edition portrait, complete with bazooka, and at least a couple of scarves.

Yes, innocent Palestinians are getting killed, but there is no evidence that Israel is targeting them, and Israel generally isn't responsible for their deaths. Hamas, on the other hand, is tricking women and children into taking part in the riots at the border fence, a literal war zone, knowing it's only a matter of time before another one gets killed.
 

shankara

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Palestinian always inflate their casualty totals, and the media plays along.

The way it works is like this. Every death in Gaza is blamed on Israel. Get hit and killed by a bus? Israel’s fault. Die of old age? Israel again. Executed by Hamas? You know how it goes.

Remember that Palestinian baby that supposedly choked to death from Zionist tear gas awhile back? The baby’s own doctors set the record straight about her cause of death. It was from a blood disease, not tear gas. The media, which had been giving lavish coverage of the baby’s death until then, suddenly lost interest.

Then we heard that an Israeli rocket had killed a mother and her baby. Whoops, turns out it was an Islamic Jihad rocket that went off course. Hey, I thought Palestinian rockets were supposed to be harmless. Anyway, the media again lost interest when it became known that, once more, Palestinians were dead, but Israel wasn't doing the killing.

Now, think about those two stories for a second, and compare them with the conventional trope that “Zionazis kill Palestinian babies!” Unless I am counting wrong, that's exactly two Palestinian baby deaths that have actually been reported as being Israel's fault, and both times, Israel had nothing to do with it. You'd think, wouldn't you, that if Israel was constantly killing any innocent Palestinians, young or old, we'd be hearing more about it?

The media, which I am told is owned and operated by Zionists, do keep reporting that innocent Palestinians are being killed during the regular "spontaneous" Gaza fence riots demonstrations. But investigation almost always shows that the Palestinians who died during these "peaceful" protests were young men, and members of either Hamas or Islamic Jihad, both of which are violent terrorist organizations. Hamas and IJ often make it very easy to identify these dead man as terrorists by releasing their official freedom fighter collectors edition portrait, complete with bazooka, and at least a couple of scarves.

Yes, innocent Palestinians are getting killed, but there is no evidence that Israel is targeting them, and Israel generally isn't responsible for their deaths. Hamas, on the other hand, is tricking women and children into taking part in the riots at the border fence, a literal war zone, knowing it's only a matter of time before another one gets killed.
Well according to the site:
"Information about occupation and conflict-related casualties is regularly collected by OCHA field staff and entered into OCHA’s Protection of Civilians database, following review and verification. As a rule, for an incident to be entered into the database it needs to be validated by at least two independent and reliable sources."

I strongly doubt, therefore, that all the information simply comes from HAMAS. Quite a few of the casualties are in the West Bank anyway. If you switch on the "Civilian" filter on the page almost 3,000 of the casualties were definitely civilians and almost 2,000 more uncertain. A little less than 1,000 were definitely armed fighters.

So I didn't hear either of the two stories you mentioned, I'm sure sometimes there are false reports, but at the same time there are a whole lot of true reports which don't make into much of the European media. I'm sure that given the amount of Israeli bombing babies probably have been killed, it would be statistically highly improbable if this were not the case. The OCHA site says 987 boys and 244 girls were among the Palestinian casualties, that just means under 18's but one would assume that some proportion of that number would be very young.

As for your assertion that the people who died in the "Great March Of Return" were all combatants, I again doubt that in such a case the UN would say that of all the people killed only two posed a threat. Furthermore there are quite a few stories about Medics and Journalists being killed. Not to mention that the Israelis used ammunition which explodes on impact, illegal under international law, commonly causing the necessity to amputate limbs.

You stating that HAMAS are tricking people into joining demonstrations, I don't know if this ever actually happens, there might be cases of it. But it reminds me of what the Chinese say about the Tibetans protesting, that they aren't doing it of their own accord but because of "splittists" like the Dalai Lama. Personally if I lived in Gaza I'd probably be out protesting, given the conditions there caused by the Israeli blockade, there would be no need for anyone to trick or coerce me...
 

rainerann

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I didn’t watch the documentary, but I just wanted to say that I truly can’t understand how people can ignore what has been said for years about Zionism considering what has come out as a result of the Epstein case along with what happened to Epstein...
If you like keeping your heads in the sand, by all means, continue...
 
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I didn’t watch the documentary, but I just wanted to say that I truly can’t understand how people can ignore what has been said for years about Zionism considering what has come out as a result of the Epstein case along with what happened to Epstein...
If you like keeping your heads in the sand, by all means, continue...
You make an excellent point, and I don’t get why people can’t connect the dots either, considering all that was revealed and posted about him. Maybe it’s cognitive dissonance or just plain willful ignorance, but I find it somewhat amusing the lengths people will go to defend Zionism, despite the fact there is clear-cut evidence disclosing how evil it is.
 
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Janus

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The Zionists have the right idea, they're just taking too long to realize it. It's unnecessarily cruel. Theodor Herzl's conception of "god" was nothing more than anarchy: to build something new, one must first remove what is already there.

The Zionists are obviously perverse to anyone who has a modicum of common sense. The real problem is 1) blaming all Zionist adherents is like blaming all Jesuits. These groups always have an inner circle which escapes the scrutiny and criticism; 2) there are self-professed anti-Zionist Jews who either have not shed their Zionist roots or confine themselves to the proposed insufficient resolutions (one-state, two-state) for Palestine. (Or they merely oppose Zionists for bringing harm towards non-aggressive Jews. Very few individuals will oppose Zionism for the right reasons; it's the most reactionary ideology on the planet. Until one has thoroughly become acquainted with their mentality and methods, even to the point of losing one's own humanity, he will not be able to successfully oppose them.)
Here there can only be a gigantic struggle, the victor of which will have the right to claim Palestine. Whether they're good/bad is irrelevant. Of course, it's undesirable that WW3 acquires a religious character or begins in the Middle East. That would be far too predictable, everyone can see it coming and prepare for it.

And 3) it's too easy to pin the blame on all Jews. Sentimental anti-Semitic stigmatization and caricaturing of Jews makes these anti-Semites convenient partners for the Zionists, driving more neutral Jews into the Zionist fold.
As Lion Feuchtwanger correctly pointed out, these anti-Semites develop an unhealthy obsession with Jews, bankers, and foreigners (which has become an equivalent to the communist and mainstream mass-psychosis). The difference is that the communists are more honest and the mainstream historians (excepting the ones with religious bias) are slightly more reliable than revisionists who shun testimony from dissidents such as Ernst Hanfstaengl, Hermann Rauschning, and Otto Strasser when it does not suit their narrative.

“Come on, let us deal wisely with them; lest they multiply, and it come to pass, that, when there falleth out any war, they join also unto our enemies.”
If you read the Jewish commentary on Exodus, the Rabbis suggest that this was the same Pharaoh who had previously granted Joseph and his brothers entry into Egypt. It's peculiar that Pharaoh would seek to eliminate the male babies rather than the girls. A people never die out for a lack of men. There is a striking parallel with Herod's purported slaughter of infants, again going after the males.
 
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Janus

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If you read the actual book of Exodus, it says that it was a different pharaoh. Plus, it was 400 years after Joseph.
Both the Exodus Rabbah and Talmudic commentary argue that his policies were new.

The reasoning given for a new Pharaoh is not much: it says new.

If you really cared about Jewish emancipation, you would have studied their commentaries, as Thomas Jefferson proposed.
 
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