The Way: Q&a With Christians

[Damien50]

I am in no way perfect and quick to ask questions to things I don't understand. I am no fair weather Christian caught in the flights of fancy regarding scripture when I regard it and quite honestly prefer to not be called one.

This thread is for those like me or possibly not yet it still is. This is not the thread to coddle, give soft biblical explanations, proselytize, be ransacked by those who aren't generally trying to understand but argue and all other forms of derailing that aren't conducive to discussion.

It shall be assumed that the writings within the bible are authentic and corruption possibly present yet not the focus of this thread.

Nothing against anyone but coming in to discredit Paul to discredit a faith as a whole or arguing the Trinity for any negative purposes. This isn't to create some neat box of bias but create formidable discussions. Anyone is welcome to participate but I will have this locked when derailing for the sake of things like the above occur. Please understand I am not discriminating but am jaded.

Anyways...​

The wrong questions seem to be asked frequently and seem to generally lead to partial answers. These partial answers lead to discrepancies where there should really be none but yet there are.

So I shall ask.

Does salvation only entail freedom from our sins and the ability to possibly enter heaven or is there more?

What are the physical and spiritual aspects of salvation?

What relevant verses make this a permanent process?

In being saved, what is the moral and ethical code that one should follow?

Upon reaching the judgement seat, is my eternal place in Heaven guaranteed or does hell become a possibility?

If hell isn't a possibility, how shall God punish a deserving sinner?

What separates opinion from God given inspiration in the bible?

Spoiler: @raineran

I was thinking about this question yesterday. Personally, I don't believe that it is possible for man to produce a book without errors. Therefore, I do not believe that it is possible for their to be any Holy book that is completely perfect and without error. It is just not possible. To say it is would be superstition. People are often much more superstitious in religion than we like to believe even though I identify as a religious person myself.

There is a site that says, "The Bible is inspired, but is it inerrant, that is without errors? The reason for a positive answer is simple: The Bible is the Word of God, and God cannot err; therefore, the Bible cannot err. To deny the inerrancy of the Bible one must either affirm that God can err or else that the Bible is not the Word of God." https://www.namb.net/apologetics/the-inerrancy-of-the-bible

The problem with this is that man can err, man does err, the Bible tells us this over and over and over again. This doesn't prove that the Bible isn't true. This doesn't prove that it wasn't inspired. It only proves that it is impossible for any Holy book to be completely perfect and without error. They all are, some of them moreso than others because knowing what is true and what is not, is testable like a science. It is not a superstitious endeavor. Choosing a Holy book is not like choosing the right book of magic spells. Knowing truth is no different than being a scientist in a lab. Truth should be tested. This is how you know something is true. This doesn't require perfection. To know truth does not require it to be written a certain way, which cannot be changed. People say things that are true everyday.

So what separates opinion from God given inspiration in the Bible is anointing. It is basically that there were men who wanted to serve God, and God's presence was with them. They wrote the part of the Bible they were responsible for and God said it was good and I will use this to teach others. It is this anointing that gives the Bible it's place in history. This anointing is demonstrated by it presence throughout the world in the same that David was known for His anointing. However, even this should be tested. A person should never believe something is true just because someone said it is true. They should believe because in believing there is evidence of it being true.

Finally, it is this evidence that manifests by faith that separates the Bible as God given inspiration and not merely the opinion of man.

How does one identify and properly place opinion versus the words and wisdom of God?

Did Jesus die only physically and was it only for mankind's sin?

I don't particularly expect any one person to answer these all at once but full bodied responses are preferred with scripture to support your stance. I humbly invite @Todd @Thunderian @Scott Christopher Shuman @Karlysymon @KoncreteMind (though I know you aren't Christian yet perspective greatly appreciated) @Artful Revealer @rainerann

Anyone may participate.

 

[rainerann]

When I hit reply to your post it opened a window, that from the looks of it, seems like a tracking software website? Can you explain this?

Its just from the ads on the site. It happened to me once or twice. I thought it was weird until I went back to the forum and the random site was I the adbar.

 

[Karlysymon]

Ah @Damien50! I was actually going to run away from the forum for a while and then i see your alert.....Iam at your service.

 

[Damien50]

Ah @Damien50! I was actually going to run away from the forum for a while and then i see your alert.....Iam at your service.

Feel free to answer any it none of the questions. We lack a dedicated thread where we can fully expound. Having bits and pieces has appeared to be detrimental lol

 

[rainerann]

What separates opinion from God given inspiration in the bible?

I was thinking about this question yesterday. Personally, I don't believe that it is possible for man to produce a book without errors. Therefore, I do not believe that it is possible for their to be any Holy book that is completely perfect and without error. It is just not possible. To say it is would be superstition. People are often much more superstitious in religion than we like to believe even though I identify as a religious person myself.

There is a site that says, "The Bible is inspired, but is it inerrant, that is without errors? The reason for a positive answer is simple: The Bible is the Word of God, and God cannot err; therefore, the Bible cannot err. To deny the inerrancy of the Bible one must either affirm that God can err or else that the Bible is not the Word of God." https://www.namb.net/apologetics/the-inerrancy-of-the-bible

The problem with this is that man can err, man does err, the Bible tells us this over and over and over again. This doesn't prove that the Bible isn't true. This doesn't prove that it wasn't inspired. It only proves that it is impossible for any Holy book to be completely perfect and without error. They all are, some of them moreso than others because knowing what is true and what is not, is testable like a science. It is not a superstitious endeavor. Choosing a Holy book is not like choosing the right book of magic spells. Knowing truth is no different than being a scientist in a lab. Truth should be tested. This is how you know something is true. This doesn't require perfection. To know truth does not require it to be written a certain way, which cannot be changed. People say things that are true everyday.

So what separates opinion from God given inspiration in the Bible is anointing. It is basically that there were men who wanted to serve God, and God's presence was with them. They wrote the part of the Bible they were responsible for and God said it was good and I will use this to teach others. It is this anointing that gives the Bible it's place in history. This anointing is demonstrated by it presence throughout the world in the same that David was known for His anointing. However, even this should be tested. A person should never believe something is true just because someone said it is true. They should believe because in believing there is evidence of it being true.

Finally, it is this evidence that manifests by faith that separates the Bible as God given inspiration and not merely the opinion of man.

 

[Damien50]

I was thinking about this question yesterday. Personally, I don't believe that it is possible for man to produce a book without errors. Therefore, I do not believe that it is possible for their to be any Holy book that is completely perfect and without error. It is just not possible. To say it is would be superstition. People are often much more superstitious in religion than we like to believe even though I identify as a religious person myself.

There is a site that says, "The Bible is inspired, but is it inerrant, that is without errors? The reason for a positive answer is simple: The Bible is the Word of God, and God cannot err; therefore, the Bible cannot err. To deny the inerrancy of the Bible one must either affirm that God can err or else that the Bible is not the Word of God." https://www.namb.net/apologetics/the-inerrancy-of-the-bible

The problem with this is that man can err, man does err, the Bible tells us this over and over and over again. This doesn't prove that the Bible isn't true. This doesn't prove that it wasn't inspired. It only proves that it is impossible for any Holy book to be completely perfect and without error. They all are, some of them moreso than others because knowing what is true and what is not, is testable like a science. It is not a superstitious endeavor. Choosing a Holy book is not like choosing the right book of magic spells. Knowing truth is no different than being a scientist in a lab. Truth should be tested. This is how you know something is true. This doesn't require perfection. To know truth does not require it to be written a certain way, which cannot be changed. People say things that are true everyday.

So what separates opinion from God given inspiration in the Bible is anointing. It is basically that there were men who wanted to serve God, and God's presence was with them. They wrote the part of the Bible they were responsible for and God said it was good and I will use this to teach others. It is this anointing that gives the Bible it's place in history. This anointing is demonstrated by it presence throughout the world in the same that David was known for His anointing. However, even this should be tested. A person should never believe something is true just because someone said it is true. They should believe because in believing there is evidence of it being true.

Finally, it is this evidence that manifests by faith that separates the Bible as God given inspiration and not merely the opinion of man.

To briefly summarize,

God chose the right men to author the bible but the men themselves are not without error in personal judgements hence they were inspired and aided by God

But

Personal opinion and choices were made and given that must and should be tested?

I'm far less eloquent than I would I have liked in summarizing so please correct me if I am off base. I do agree with what you have said and think it is an excellent view point. I shall edit the first post to link to yours and others who answer this.

 

[rainerann]

To briefly summarize,

God chose the right men to author the bible but the men themselves are not without error in personal judgements hence they were inspired and aided by God

But

Personal opinion and choices were made and given that must and should be tested?

I'm far less eloquent than I would I have liked in summarizing so please correct me if I am off base. I do agree with what you have said and think it is an excellent view point. I shall edit the first post to link to yours and others who answer this.

Yes, I agree with your summation of what I said and thanks for the compliment.

 

[Damien50]

Yes, I agree with your summation of what I said and thanks for the compliment.

I wanted to add that I find your analysis especially relevant when we talk about the contention that was between Paul and Peter. These two individuals were not perfect and to various degrees their writings were from experience, knowledge, wisdom, and opinion. We don't know how many off these writers actually knew their thoughts and scribblings would become canon to lead the masses but we can attempt to ascertain their intent in writing. Context being part of the key and separating truth from fiction.

Something else I find interesting is how writers like John and Moses perceived what God showed them. To the best of their human ability they transcribed what was given for humanity to read and learn and be guided by.

In my opinion, it's may have beyond the scope of their minds to accurately jot down the visuals of the garden or the events of revelation. I could imagine being a frustrating experience to be shown so much but lack the words to emphasize it all.

Spoiler: Conflict between Paul and Peter

Galatians 2:11-14 KJV
But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. [12] For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. [13] And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. [14] But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

 

[KoncreteMind]

In being saved, what is the moral and ethical code that one should follow?

Im sure you know my answer to this Damien lol. But I'll say it again that the code that I personally see that we're supposed to be following is the law given to Israelites.

Matthew 5
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Exodus 12:49
The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.”

No matter the nationality, its my belief that we all, at least originally, had the same expectation for all of us. Again, no matter the nationality.

If hell isn't a possibility, how shall God punish a deserving sinner?

Im not so sure anymore how this place isnt hell. I mean evil reigns here since its said that the elite runs things on the planet and that they themselves answer to the devil/lucy. The bible also says the devil will be thrown down here as a punishment. So for me, we are already in hell. The punishment, which kind of goes in line with other religions like Hinduism/buddhism, is that we keep respawning here till we get it right.. I dont really have biblical support of the respawning part, but for the earth being hell, I think the best indication is the fact that again, the devil is thrown down here for punishment.

Luke 13
28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”

This presents hell as being on earth, but also heaven or the "kingdom" ironically. A point of confusion for me to be honest.

What separates opinion from God given inspiration in the bible?

I think its harder to dictate. I think there are definitely things that arent exactly straightforward about the bible so it would be easy to confuse things that arent exactly straightforward for opinion. This is further confused when Jesus says he spoke in parables so certain people didnt understand the truth and come to be saved. I think the same applies to the bible..

 

[Damien50]

Im sure you know my answer to this Damien lol. But I'll say it again that the code that I personally see that we're supposed to be following is the law given to Israelites.

Matthew 5
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Exodus 12:49
The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.”

No matter the nationality, its my belief that we all, at least originally, had the same expectation for all of us. Again, no matter the nationality.



Im not so sure anymore how this place isnt hell. I mean evil reigns here since its said that the elite runs things on the planet and that they themselves answer to the devil/lucy. The bible also says the devil will be thrown down here as a punishment. So for me, we are already in hell. The punishment, which kind of goes in line with other religions like Hinduism/buddhism, is that we keep respawning here till we get it right.. I dont really have biblical support of the respawning part, but for the earth being hell, I think the best indication is the fact that again, the devil is thrown down here for punishment.

Luke 13
28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”

This presents hell as being on earth, but also heaven or the "kingdom" ironically. A point of confusion for me to be honest.


I think its harder to dictate. I think there are definitely things that arent exactly straightforward about the bible so it would be easy to confuse things that arent exactly straightforward for opinion. This is further confused when Jesus says he spoke in parables so certain people didnt understand the truth and come to be saved. I think the same applies to the bible..

Lol it's fine. I invited you for your opinion.

As to the first question, I do think the ten commandments and the expounding that Jesus provided do form the moral and ethical code for the saved individual.

In the spoiler below I think these things mentioned also line up with what God doesn't want us to do.

Spoiler: Things contrary to God

Romans 1:21-31 KJV
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. [22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, [23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. [24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: [25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. [26] For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: [27] And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. [28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; [29] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, [30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, [31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

Your thoughts towards a hell on earth are interesting but I'm more of the opinion that there would be a third realm manifest in a spiritual way.

Now to the last question, are you implying that the insincere would be unable to truly decipher the bible as a whole to glean the word of God?

An example being someone attempting to discredit the bible may through their self imposed veil actually make themselves ignorant of the truth?

 

[Karlysymon]

@Damien50
This is so much better.....you know what i mean....its the best decision and i think we have started off well, given the times we are living in and that the point addressed first is a hot topic. If we do not have confidence in our sacred text, what is the point of the Christian walk?

The writers of the Bible had to
express their ideas in human
language. It was written by
human men. These men were
inspired of the Holy Spirit.
The Bible is not given to us in
grand superhuman language.
Jesus, in order to reach man
where he is, took humanity. The
Bible must be given in the
language of men. Everything that is human is imperfect.

The Bible is written by inspired
men, but it is not God's mode of
thought and expression. It is
that of humanity. God, as a
writer, is not represented. Men
will often say such an expression is not like God. But
God has not put Himself in
words, in logic, in rhetoric, on
trial in the Bible. The writers of
the Bible were God's penmen,
not His pen. Look at the different writers.

God has taken care to preserve His inspired word because He has our spiritual interests at heart but it also doesn't mean its beyond man's insanity because there is such a thing as freewill. If God could prevent the Bible from corruption at the hands of men at all cost, He sure could have struck with lightning those who banned and burned the Book centuries ago and yet, that was permitted to happen.

While revelation is the
supernatural act by which God reveals truth to chosen human beings, inspiration is the activity of the Holy Spirit that safeguards the truthfulness of what the human authors wrote,
so that their words have the full approval of God. God hates false witness (Exod. 20:16) and cannot lie (Heb. 6:18). He is called a God of truth (Ps. 31:5, Isa. 65:16). In a similar manner, the Holy Spirit is called "the
Spirit of truth" (John 14:17).

Therefore;
Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”
Psalm 12:7
And the words of the Lord are flawless, like silver purified in a crucible, like gold refined seven times.
2 Peter 1:16-21
For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eye-witnesses of his majesty. He received honour and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, ‘This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.........
For prophecy never had its origin in the human will,
but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Thunderian]

Luke 13
28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”

This presents hell as being on earth, but also heaven or the "kingdom" ironically. A point of confusion for me to be honest.

That passage is about the lake of fire, which will be on earth during the millennial reign of Jesus Christ. The millennial reign is the time known as the kingdom of God, and should not be confused with Heaven. The feast referred to is the marriage supper of the Lamb, celebrating the wedding of the Church and her bridegroom, Jesus Christ.

 

[Karlysymon]

@Thunderian
will the face of the earth be turned into a lake of fire or just a specific portion of earth?

 

[Damien50]

@Damien50
This is so much better.....you know what i mean....its the best decision and i think we have started off well, given the times we are living in and that the point addressed first is a hot topic. If we do not have confidence in our sacred text, what is the point of the Christian walk?

God has taken care to preserve His inspired word because He has our spiritual interests at heart but it also doesn't mean its beyond man's insanity because there is such a thing as freewill. If God could prevent the Bible from corruption at the hands of men at all cost, He sure could have struck with lightning those who banned and burned the Book centuries ago and yet, that was permitted to happen.

Therefore;
Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”
Psalm 12:7
And the words of the Lord are flawless, like silver purified in a crucible, like gold refined seven times.
2 Peter 1:16-21
For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eye-witnesses of his majesty. He received honour and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, ‘This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.........
For prophecy never had its origin in the human will,
but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Excellent post and I agree with the great start.

I want to add more but I'm at a loss for words. Between you, rain, and my thoughts on the subject I don't have much to offer lol.

Isaiah 55:8-11 KJV
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord . [9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. [10] For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: [11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

 

[KoncreteMind]

Lol it's fine. I invited you for your opinion.

As to the first question, I do think the ten commandments and the expounding that Jesus provided do form the moral and ethical code for the saved individual.

In the spoiler below I think these things mentioned also line up with what God doesn't want us to do.

Spoiler: Things contrary to God

Romans 1:21-31 KJV
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. [22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, [23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. [24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: [25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. [26] For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: [27] And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. [28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; [29] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, [30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, [31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

Definitely agree with the Romans excerpt though I see it as a sum up of what the law taught.

Now to the last question, are you implying that the insincere would be unable to truly decipher the bible as a whole to glean the word of God?

An example being someone attempting to discredit the bible may through their self imposed veil actually make themselves ignorant of the truth?

Yes that is my opinion. If a person's approach to the bible isnt sincere ("I want the truth and only the truth no matter how it makes me feel") then I dont believe they'll understand the bible as a whole. Of course thats just my two cents, but thats the only reason I can come up with for Jesus saying he spoke in parables so that certain people wouldnt understand. That or God picks those to be saved, and others to be destroyed which is alot more cynical but also a possible explanation since He is said to know the end from the beginning.

 

[KoncreteMind]

That passage is about the lake of fire, which will be on earth during the millennial reign of Jesus Christ. The millennial reign is the time known as the kingdom of God, and should not be confused with Heaven. The feast referred to is the marriage supper of the Lamb, celebrating the wedding of the Church and her bridegroom, Jesus Christ.

Maybe so. But theres many confusing things about it when you actually take into account what both sides of the bible say. The OT says that the Israelites would be gathered to their land to where they will live with God and His anointed FOREVER.

Ezekiel 37:23-28

Spoiler

23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

24 “‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’”

While there are also bible verses that say this earth and the heaven above it will be destroyed and new ones created in their place.

Isaiah 65:17
"See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

The existence of heaven, belief that those who are saved get to go there, while the OT makes it clear that God will come down to live with Israel forever, is a point of confusion for me. I mean, if Im blessed enough to be saved, Im good with whatever but it doesnt seem straightforward one way or the other (imo of course)...

 

[Thunderian]

@Thunderian
will the face of the earth be turned into a lake of fire or just a specific portion of earth?

The short of it is that it appears there will be a lake of fire on the earth for the duration of the Jesus Christ's millennial reign and it looks like it's going to be located in Jordan.

I'll start in Isaiah 53, and I'm going to use a lot of scripture, so be warned.

1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

So this chapter begins at the time of Christ's second advent, and the destruction of the forces of evil at Armageddon that we read about it Revelation 19.

3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

More apocalyptic references. Melting mountains, heavens together as scrolls, fig trees. Pretty standard stuff, and definitely ties this chapter to the events of Revelation.

5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

Idumea and Bozrah are the lands that correspond to areas in the country of Jordan. In Revelation 12, as you recall the woman flees to the mountains. The area around the city of Petra in Jordan is known by a few names, and Bozrah is one of them, as is Edom, and Seir.

When Jesus Christ returns, Bozrah is his first stop on his way to Jerusalem and the date he has with the armies of the nations of the world. He goes there to rescue the Jews who have fled there and called on his name. Isaiah 63 speaks of this:

1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

So Jesus has returned, has redeemed the Jews at Petra, but for some reason really has it in for that area. I am looking into what the Edomites may have done to incur the Lord's wrath, but they sure did something. Look at what he does to their land.

7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.

The land is turned into what can be reasonably described as a lake of fire, or, for our latino brethren, el lago de fuego. Stream of pitch, dust becomes brimstone, and all the land is burning pitch. Muy lago de fuego.

10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

It looks like there will be a literal lake of fire in the land of Edom during the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ where the beast and false prophet are kept.

 

[Thunderian]

Maybe so. But theres many confusing things about it when you actually take into account what both sides of the bible say. The OT says that the Israelites would be gathered to their land to where they will live with God and His anointed FOREVER.

Ezekiel 37:23-28

Spoiler

23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

24 “‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’”

While there are also bible verses that say this earth and the heaven above it will be destroyed and new ones created in their place.

Isaiah 65:17
"See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

The existence of heaven, belief that those who are saved get to go there, while the OT makes it clear that God will come down to live with Israel forever, is a point of confusion for me. I mean, if Im blessed enough to be saved, Im good with whatever but it doesnt seem straightforward one way or the other (imo of course)...

During the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ, Israel will finally be in full, obedient, possession of the land that was promised to Abraham's seed. Jesus will be their king, as well as being king over the earth. Sacrifices and holy days will be the law on earth, and the nations will come to Jerusalem to pay respects to the King. It is possible that the nations will be able to see the beast and false prophet in the lake of fire as they make their way to Jerusalem.

When the thousand years of peace and perfect rule are complete, and a couple other things happen, then there will be a new heaven and a new earth, meaning that the universe will be replaced with a brand new one. But there will still be a Jerusalem, and so I think Israel will still have the land they were promised, even though there will be new nations, and Jesus will continue to abide with them and rule them, and us, forever.

 

[Karlysymon]

Since God is a life-giver then obviously His word would do the same in our lives and i think that a sacred text, whose words infuse life into ours souls, stands as evidence that it is God-inspired. Scripture may be attended by power but it won't make a difference in our lives if we do not let it have a bearing.
Psalm 19
The law of the Lord is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy,
making wise the simple. The precepts of the Lord are right, giving joy to the heart. The commands of the Lord are radiant,
giving light to the eyes.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it
judges the thoughts and
attitudes of the heart.
2 Timothy 3:15-17
and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith
in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting
and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for
every good work.
Romans 15:4
For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance and encouragement of the
Scriptures and we might have hope.

On the other hand, while here, Jesus quoted extensively from the Old Testament. That shows that He studied the Scriptures and that tells us that we can trust that word entirely-the prophets, Psalms and the Law. If an attack on the Scriptures is happening now, what makes you think that wasn't the case long before Christ's birth? Christ shows us that we can have faith/confidence in the Scriptures, regardless. Afew verses where He employed the OT:
* as a sign of Jonah (Matt 12:38-42)
*mentions Prophet Daniel (Matt 24:15)
*During the Temptation and Luke 4:16-21
(Today, this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing)
*Luke 24:27, 44
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He
explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning Himself.
He said to them, ‘This is what I told you while I was still with you: everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and
the Psalms.’ Then he opened their minds so they could understand the
Scriptures.

 

[Karlysymon]

Quote:
God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the
basis of all reforms. The
opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of
ecclesiastical councils, as
numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority--not one nor all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before
accepting any doctrine or
precept, we should demand a plain "Thus saith the Lord" in its support.
God has given us His word that we may become acquainted with its teachings and know for
ourselves what He requires of us. When the lawyer came to Jesus with the inquiry, "What shall I do to inherit eternal life?" the Saviour referred him to the
Scriptures, saying: "What is written in the law? how readest thou?" Ignorance will not excuse young or old, nor release them from the punishment due for the transgression of God's
law; because there is in their hands a faithful presentation of that law and of its principles and claims. It is not enough to have good intentions; it is not enough to do what a man thinks is right or what the minister tells him is right. His SOUL'S SALVATION IS AT STAKE, and he should search the Scriptures for himself. However strong may be his convictions, however confident he may be
that the minister knows what is truth, this is not his foundation.
He has a chart pointing out every waymark on the
heavenward journey, and he ought not to guess at anything. It is the first and highest duty of every rational being to learn
from the Scriptures what is truth, and then to walk in the light and encourage others to follow his example. We should day by day study the Bible
diligently, weighing every
thought and comparing
scripture with scripture. With divine help we are to form our opinions for ourselves as WE ARE TO ANSWER FOR OURSELVES BEFORE GOD.
The Bible should never be
studied without prayer. The Holy Spirit alone can cause us to feel the importance of those things easy to be understood, or prevent us from wresting truths
difficult of comprehension. It is the office of heavenly angels to prepare the heart so to comprehend God's word that we shall be charmed with its
beauty, admonished by its
warnings, or animated and
strengthened by its promises.
We should make the psalmist's petition our own: "Open Thou mine eyes, that I may behold
wondrous things out of Thy law." Psalm 119:18.

Jesus promised His disciples:
"The Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring
all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26. But the teachings of Christ must previously have been stored in the mind in order for the Spirit of God to bring them to our remembrance in the time of peril. "Thy word have I hid in mine heart," said David, "that I might not sin against Thee."Psalm 119:11. ALL WHO VALUE THEIR ETERNAL INTERESTS SHOULD be on their guard against the inroads of skepticism. The very pillars of truth will be assailed. It is impossible to keep beyond the reach of the sarcasms and sophisms, the insidious and pestilent teachings, of modern infidelity. Satan adapts his temptations to all classes. He assails the illiterate with a jest or sneer, while he meets the educated with scientific objections and philosophical reasoning, alike calculated to excite distrust or contempt of the Scriptures. Even youth of little experience presume to insinuate doubts concerning the fundamental principles of Christianity. And this youthful infidelity, shallow as it is, has its influence. Many are thus led to jest at the faith of their fathers and to do despite to the Spirit of grace. (Heb 10:29.)
[end quote]
We are admonished: "To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn".~Isaiah 8:20