The VC “Case For Christ” Thread

[Artful Revealer]

Still, my voice had a beginning, that is, when i took birth. Same goes for Jesus (Peace and Prayers be upon him).

You have to equate my perception of you (your voice) with man's perception of God (Jesus) otherwise you're not logically following.

 

[God_Is_Formless]

You have to equate my perception of you (your voice) with man's perception of God (Jesus) otherwise you're not logically following.

Men perceive God in different ways. I take it you believe Jesus to be God because of what you've been taught or because of what you've read in the Bible?

My perception concerning God is based on logic and fair reasoning that can be easily explained and understood by each and everyone.

We all resemble each other and although i've never met Jesus personally i believe he must have existed at some point in time. But due to being confined to this temporal and spacial dimension that we're living in, it's quite illogical to equate him to The Unseen Creator. Planet Earth is like a grain of sand among all the grains of sand that exist on its own surface. We are literally nothing and so insignificant. The Owner of it all however, Really Is Something, Unimaginable for sure, and Incomparable to say the least!

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

i don't know about others but if i am to put it in simple terms.
We believe in the Gospel of Jesus. Which was delivered orally and thus no longer exists.
That doesn't mean that the 4 gospels according to their writers do not have truth or Jesus's word or God's word in it,
But it not 100% God's word.
The rest has been explained by others

Sorry for the late reply here - I have a fairly good understanding of what Muslims believe with regard to Jesus and the nature of the Bible. As I am sure you may have picked up from some of my postings, I hold a different view.

I am firmly convinced that no argument I could make to you would convince you of an alternate view, but we live in spiritually interesting times and perhaps before we all get too old to be bothered with all this typing, world events may begin to fall into line behind one view or another, which may create the background to quite another type of discussion...

 

[rainerann]

but we live in spiritually interesting times and perhaps before we all get too old to be bothered with all this typing, world events may begin to fall into line behind one view or another, which may create the background to quite another type of discussion...

I would love for something along these lines to happen. We need a new background of discussion I think.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@God_Is_Formless - "I take it you believe Jesus to be God because of what you've been taught or because of what you've read in the Bible?"...

Well partly... But later I met Him in a way which would be hard to explain to you...

Later again, I saw Him heal some of my family members. More recently again and I seem to meet Him each day as I dig deeper into his Word.

On a personal note, whilst I may disagree with you on some things, I detect an honesty and courtesy in your approach. I was once told my my friend Muhammed that I would "make a good Muslim" - In the same spirit, I think you would make a good Christian. God bless you...

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I would love for something along these lines to happen. We need a new background of discussion I think.

Perhaps so. I think few people are really aware of Bible prophecy, and most would not even know if one were fulfilled if it was on the evening news! Much debate swirls around hard to pin down questions like the timing and validity of the Rapture, but little is said of the various perhaps soon to be fulfilled prophecies that could even happen before it occurred...

 

[God_Is_Formless]

But later I met Him in a way which would be hard to explain to you...

Why should it be hard to explain to anybody if it's indeed the truth? The truth is simple. It's what it is, the simple truth, One God, full stop!

Healing in the name of Jesus does happen but the real truths are

1. God Is The Healer as well as The Giver of disease. Why should any disease/sickness/affliction be viewed only negatively?

2. If God Afflicts you with a disease, why should you seek the remedy beyond any of the medications you've already tried? For example, say you're afflicted with fever. Why would you want to go see a doctor if you've already taken a spoon of honey and asked God to Heal you through it? God Is The Healer. The medicines cannot heal you on their own. They can only be a means of remedy ONLY if God Wills.

3. The devils know how offensive it is to The Almighty that His creatures should liken Him to mere creatures. The jinn are known to be able to create a symptom or discomfort imitating a disease and they are the ones that fake a healing of sorts when preachers take the name of Jesus in order to perform some sort of miracle healing by simply ceasing to affect the person, thereby leading men astray from the path that leads to The Unseen Creator.

4. You can choose to see God every day at every second. Why would you want to see Jesus, who is as God-Dependent as you and me or any other speck of dust? Nothing's simpler to explain to somebody that Jesus was simply a very special Messenger of God Almighty. Just like the sky is a messenger of God in that its state doesn't change and its perfection stays the same through and through. That only tells you that God Is Unfathomable and All-Powerful Really to be maintaining all that constantly in existence at each and every moment.

5. God Gives life and death. That's one thing many Christians i know fear, that is, death. Everything has been Created by God, in pairs. Life and death. Male and female. Positive and negative. Why should anybody fear death when it is an inevitability? Only God Does Not Die, like at all. If God Wills, a dead person may be resurrected but that resurrection doesn't make that person any more special than another who hasn't died yet.

 

[grateful servant]

Perhaps so. I think few people are really aware of Bible prophecy, and most would not even know if one were fulfilled if it was on the evening news! Much debate swirls around hard to pin down questions like the timing and validity of the Rapture, but little is said of the various perhaps soon to be fulfilled prophecies that could even happen before it occurred...

You should watch the video I posted in the Revelations thread.... I would love to hear a Christian's opinion of it.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

You should watch the video I posted in the Revelations thread.... I would love to hear a Christian's opinion of it.

I tried to find the tread but could not... When you get a moment, could you pop me a link to it? It's getting to be a big forum now!!

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@God_Is_Formless - I see you are referring to some of the 99 names of Allah....

I didn't skirt over my experience of my first encounter with Jesus because it could not be put into text but because it mere text could not do it justice. When I have heard various stories of people having encountered the Lord, there is something about their story, the look in their eye, and sometimes even the words they can't find that says to me "that's it, that's what it was like"... I watched a story of an ex New Ager describing such an experience and it resonated with me...

 

[Artful Revealer]

Men perceive God in different ways. I take it you believe Jesus to be God because of what you've been taught or because of what you've read in the Bible?

My perception concerning God is based on logic and fair reasoning that can be easily explained and understood by each and everyone.

We all resemble each other and although i've never met Jesus personally i believe he must have existed at some point in time. But due to being confined to this temporal and spacial dimension that we're living in, it's quite illogical to equate him to The Unseen Creator. Planet Earth is like a grain of sand among all the grains of sand that exist on its own surface. We are literally nothing and so insignificant. The Owner of it all however, Really Is Something, Unimaginable for sure, and Incomparable to say the least!

Now you're just giving me your beliefs, you're not really arguing the logical possibility of God's incarnation.

 

[Tatilina]

Now you're just giving me your beliefs, you're not really arguing the logical possibility of God's incarnation.

No he's just very poetic

 

[Artful Revealer]

The truth is simple. It's what it is, the simple truth, One God, full stop!

We're aware. Islam got its monotheism from Christianity, so we know what you're talking about.

1. God Is The Healer as well as The Giver of disease.

This is absolutely not the case in Christianity. All cultures have a god of death, plagues and diseases. Not once did this deity originally possess the highest position, only after processes of monotheisation within a polytheistic environment. The god of the Jews would be one such example. Most famous deity of calamities would be Ninurta, better known as Nimrod, who does not bestow curses or illnesses upon people because he's God. He's the "prince of this world", and if you read the Old Testament well, you should be able to identify him.

God Gives life and death. That's one thing many Christians i know fear, that is, death.

Ergo, this is also completely contradictory to Christian teaching. God is Life, not death. Death is the absence of God, a concept that Islam seemingly doesn't possess.

God doesn't decide who dies and who gets eternal life. That is dependent upon the individual.

 

[Tatilina]

@Artful Revealer do you still believe that the OT God and the NT God are not the same?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

No he's just very poetic

I think that's his style, I noticed the look in his eyes. That is what I meant...

 

[God_Is_Formless]

We're aware. Islam got its monotheism from Christianity, so we know what you're talking about.


This is absolutely not the case in Christianity. All cultures have a god of death, plagues and diseases. Not once did this deity originally possess the highest position, only after processes of monotheisation within a polytheistic or hedonistic environment. The god of the Jews would be one such example. Most famous deity of calamities would be Ninurta, better known as Nimrod, who does not bestow curses or illnesses upon people because he's God. He's the "prince of this world", and if you read the Old Testament well, you should be able to identify him.

Ergo, this is also completely contradictory to Christian teaching. God is Life, not death. Death is the absence of God, a concept that Islam seemingly doesn't possess.

God doesn't decide who dies and who gets eternal life. That is dependent upon the individual.

Death is not a calamity. That's your perception of it. Maybe you don't see beyond your two physical eyes.

God Created everything in pairs. Everything is dual except God. God is not life. Life is what YOU are. Life is all around you. Life comes from God, The Source of all life, The Creator of all life-form, The Ever-Living Himself. Life is a creature whereas God Is The Creator. God Is Beyond life while life certainly comes to an end with death. God Never Ends. God Himself Is The First and The Last, The Alpha and The Omega, The One Whose Being we cannot even begin to imagine.

Death is the absence of God? Really? How can you even conceive of such a concept, God's Existence Being Obligatory at all times? You're no different than atheists if you believe such imo.

God Created death. Death itself will taste death on the Day of Judgment. Death is only an illusion of sorts. It's an end to life as we know it here on Earth or in this current dimension that we're living in. We did not choose our bodies. It's only a vehicle for the soul. Though perfectly proportioned, it has its inconveniences that we must cope with all throughout our lives until death. We need to maintain its cleanliness. It grows old. When it gets sick, we must seek some kind of treatment without forgetting that Only God Can Deliver us from it.

Death is a gift for the one who believes in the Hereafter. After death, another version of life is Granted to the human being or the jinn. The body dies, but the soul remains and is transferred to another body. People who have died say 2000 years ago are still in that hereafter right now as we are currently discussing. They are either undergoing some form of Judgment for the way in which they carried their bodies while on Earth's surface or they are peacefully awaiting the Day of Judgment. Either way, the Earth is treating the inhabitants who have passed away in the same way that they've lived their lives on it. If the people lived in God's Obedience through and through, they are more likely to receive a good treatment while in Earth's belly from Earth itself since Earth is nothing more than a servant to its Almighty Creator and Maintainer.

Lastly, everybody gets eternal life whether you get admitted to Paradise or Hell. Some of Hell's inhabitants might be subject to some purification of sorts before being admitted to Paradise though. Other of Hell's inhabitants will still get eternal life even if they won't ever be delivered from hell-fire. But they did earn it, didn't they? Like really, how else would you punish somebody who's tortured millions?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@God_Is_Formless - for my part, I can honestly echo the words and sentiment of Paul...

Philippians 1

21For to me to live is Christ, and to die isgain. 22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. 25And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; 26That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.

Does that make more sense to you?

 

[Artful Revealer]

@God_Is_Formless It's clearly you who can't see beyond the physicality of things, because you completely ignored spiritual death. That death is not a gift since your soul remains trapped in this material, "physical" life. Death is not a gift of God in Christianity, eternal life is. Death is a goal, the death of one's carnal self, that is, constantly victim to temptations and suffering.

But again, you're expounding your belief, which is deflecting us from the issue of Jesus' godliness.

To answer your question about punishment for mass murderers ... I believe punishment is reserved for the realm of justice which is exactly that dimension of duality you described. Good and evil are subjected to righteous and unrighteous based on the Law. This juridicial duality is the net we're all entangled in, and we need to escape that duality of reward and punishment by connecting to our divine origins and unity. One's damnation is another life on Earth (btw, I don't hate earthly life at all, it's just from a spiritual perspective) so one's salvation is the liberation from that life.

 

[Artful Revealer]

@Artful Revealer do you still believe that the OT God and the NT God are not the same?

The unrevealed Father of the Gospel isn't present in the OT, no. But apocryphal scripture sometimes uses Father or God for the creator of the universe (El) who is present in (mostly) the first parts of the Torah. EL in IsraEL refers to the god they worshipped before another deity took El's place. It's not IsraYAHU, if you catch my drift.

 

[God_Is_Formless]

To you be your religion and to me mine.

Jesus (Peace and Prayers be upon him) does not have any attribute of Godliness.

Godliness is Proper to God and God Alone. If you can't feel such gratitude towards your Creator that you can't help but liken and belittle Him to a being (however special he may be) that took birth in a lowly yet respectful manner like we all did, i don't know what else to tell you. Maybe my words might be of help to you when you find yourself resolved to give up that arrogance of yours concerning your beliefs. All the best!