The VC “Case For Christ” Thread

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Your remark is "God did not exist before Mary, so who were people praying to if they didn't yet know God?"
How can God not exist before that which had a beginning? Mary had a beginning and so had Adam, her forefather.

Only God Is Without Beginning Since He Always Existed and nothing can be compared to Him in any way.

So the simple fact that your beginning resembles the beginning of Jesus itself is proof that both of you share a kind of similarity and hence can be considered to be a pair for each other, at least to some extent, i.e. both of you took birth from a mother.
 
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Abraham trusted the Lord God, and his faith led him to almost sacrifice his own son. Some parallels here with the New Testament Gospel, right?
A similitude you might say except that Abraham is not God Almighty.

God Commanded Abraham to sacrifice Ishmael, which was given to him and his wife while he was of old age.

Abraham truly loved Ishmael much. But was he ever allowed to love Ishmael so much as to not consider the idea of ever losing him?

God Then Tested Abraham by Commanding him to sacrifice Ishmael.

Both father and son agreed to obeying God's Command, thereby passing the test.

Result: the son of Abraham was replaced by a cattle which was sacrificed in his place. Abraham passed the test because, if it's God's Command, then everything is expendable since everything is replaceable sooner or later but nothing can ever take God's Place in any way. In other words, you can sacrifice all that you love most dearly for God's Sake but nothing can ever be worthier of your utmostest of love more than God Almighty.
 
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Abraham trusted the Lord God, and his faith led him to almost sacrifice his own son. Some parallels here with the New Testament Gospel, right?
If @Lady really sees a parallel here, then why does she not take it all the way? For if she did, her doctrine would crumble. You see, Abraham did not sacrifice his only son - Almighty God spared him from it. Abraham's son was not sacrificied or killed and neither was Jesus.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I have been away on holiday and I'm just catching back up... I wondered if any of my Islamic friends might help me on this question?

We have gone back and forth on the question of 'have the scriptures been corrupted' and I am not here to try you again on that point, but rather, to ask if you think both the OT and NT are corrupt, to what extent and how far back does that corruption extend?

Apologies for the complex question, but I want to understand what our actual starting point is...
 
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Exactly how does it make God look weak? If you're of the idea that Jinn can do things God cannot do, perhaps the source of your discomfort is Islam, not me.
If the Jinn have been Created by God Almighty, then so have their capabilities too been Created and Granted to them by Him, so in no way does that mean that God Cannot do the things that Jinn can do since everything that we (humans and jinn) are able to do are only possible because God Wills that we be able to do them.

I give you one example:

How many people have eyes but yet are blind?

What does that mean?

Will you consider what science has recently discovered concerning the intricacies of the ocular organ or will you consider the fact that during times where people had no knowledge of such intricacies, it was simply deemed to be God's Will that the eye be allowed to have the power to see or to be denied the power thereof?

Considering such a stance, it's easier to see God's Blessing in everything.

How blessed am i, that i have eyes and yet can see because there are some who have eyes but yet can't see.

It all falls into that same saying that has been taught by all Prophets and Messengers of God Almighty to their respective people:

Nothing is worthy of being worshiped and adored except God

Why?

Simply because it is because of His Will and Power that you are being allowed to stay alive at every second, let alone also it being because of His Benevolence and Magnificence that all of your bodily organs are being allowed by Him to function as they should at each and every second. If you had to thank Him, you would never be able to thank Him, since the act of thanking Him is also Made Possible by Him Alone.

So to whom does every unit of creation since Adam till now owe Thanks and Praises to for each and everything that we cannot even count?

The reason we see blind, deaf, mute, and otherwise-less-favored people is only for us to reflect and be grateful for whatever we have.

And those less-favored people too have the duty to be grateful for the life they have been given and the purpose they have been Created for.

Needless to say, God Also Caters to their deficiencies in ways that we can only try to imagine. God Is The Greatest Indeed and In Deeds!
 
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If you really had faith in God, you would surely know that nothing, and i mean absolutely nothing, is a result of coincidence.

If God Created everything, and that everything is only functioning through His Power, then what part does any thing (like the internet, or the electricity flowing here and there, or even anybody for instance) have in being able to act out any thing on their own or as a result of chance? But i regress. Mayhap you meant it ironically, since the person in question is being doubted to have preferred the Muslim stance over others?

Anyhow, what's a Muslim except somebody who has submitted to God, Islam's signification being Submission to God and therefrom feeling at peace since now that you believe in A Supreme Being Who Has Organized everything, you just feel at peace because you just know and have faith that He Will Cater for each and every need of yours, no matter what may happen to you or your surroundings since He Has Power over all?

Edit: i just reread your following post and i am sincerely sorry to have doubted your faith, my bad, really.
 

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,... if you think both the OT and NT are corrupt, to what extent and how far back does that corruption extend?... but I want to understand what our actual starting point is...
For those of us who adhere to the Qur'aan and Sunnah, it doesn't matter to what extent or how far back since those details were not mentioned in the Quran or the Hadiths of Muhammad. It is the third article of the Islamic faith to believe in all of God's revealed books, meaning, we believe that He the Most High sent revelation to all of His prophets as a guidance for mankind. Each Prophet and revelation was sent to a particular nation while Muhammad and the Quran are the final prophet and final revelations respectively- sent to all of mankind. Our starting point is what Almighty God said:

Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except God and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of God ." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]." Quran 3:64

Perhaps the following will give more insight if you wish to read it:

The Torah and Gospel were originally from Allah, may He be exalted, and we are obliged to believe in them because Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Say (O Muslims), ‘We believe in Allah and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibraaheem (Abraham), Ismaa‘eel (Ishmael), Ishaaq (Isaac), Ya‘qoob (Jacob), and to Al-Asbaat (the twelve sons of Ya‘qoob (Jacob)), and that which has been given to Moosa (Moses) and ‘Eesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islam)’”

[al-Baqarah 2:136]

“O you who believe! Believe in Allah, and His Messenger (Muhammad (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him)), and the Book (the Quran) which He has sent down to His Messenger, and the Scripture which He sent down to those before (him), and whosoever disbelieves in Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Last Day, then indeed he has strayed far away”

[an-Nisa’ 4:136].

But the Torah and Gospel were subjected to distortion and changes. Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby”

[al-Baqarah 2:79].

Continue reading ...

The Muslims believe in the divinely revealed Books
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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I have just read this and I was blown away... Perhaps this illustrates the case for Christ as well as any points I could make...

"The prominent talk show host in Egypt, leaned forward as he searched for a response.

“The Copts of Egypt … are made of … steel!” he finally uttered.

Moments earlier, Adeeb was watching a colleague in a simple home in Alexandria speak with the widow of Naseem Faheem, the guard at St. Mark’s Cathedral in the seaside Mediterranean city.

On Palm Sunday, the guard had redirected a suicide bomber through the perimeter metal detector, where the terrorist detonated. Likely the first to die in the blast, Faheem saved the lives of dozens inside the church.

“I’m not angry at the one who did this,” said his wife, children by her side. “I’m telling him, ‘May God forgive you, and we also forgive you. Believe me, we forgive you.’

“‘You put my husband in a place I couldn’t have dreamed of.’”

Stunned, Adeeb stammered about Copts bearing atrocities over hundreds of years, but couldn’t escape the central scandal.

“How great is this forgiveness you have!” his voice cracked. “If it were my father, I could never say this. But this is their faith and religious conviction.”

Millions marveled with him across the airwaves of Egypt."

From http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2017/april-web-only/forgiveness-muslims-moved-coptic-christians-egypt-isis.html
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Imo, there's no case to be made for anybody who didn't even ask to exist in the first place.

Having said that, ISIS is not Islam, if you care to watch why the majority of Muslims say so:

My post was not really directed at regular Muslims, I know ISIS are an extreme, stupid group!

It was the response of forgivesess.

You can only forgive like that if you know to the bottom of your being that you are also forgiven.

Jesus is alive in the hearts of born again believers, but he also really died!

I came across this one this morning which I offer up for review and comment!

"The Shroud of Turin is perhaps one of the most controversial artifacts of all-time. Either it is one of the most incredible, holy relics related to Jesus of Nazareth or it is one of the most ingenious hoaxes ever invented. The Shroud of Turin is a 14’ 5” x 3’ 7” linen cloth that holds the image of a crucified man that matches the description of the manner in which Jesus of Nazareth was crucified. The front and the back of the crucified man is shown, the front on one end of the cloth and the back ."

Read here:

http://reasonsforjesus.com/8-reasons-why-the-shroud-of-turin-might-be-the-burial-cloth-of-jesus/
 
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And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of God ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. Qur'an, Chapter 4, Verse 157
 

Red Sky at Morning

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And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of God ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. Qur'an, Chapter 4, Verse 157
Well that clearly settles the question then...
 
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May i add, given that if God Wills everything is possible, maybe you could ask it of Him in heaven at most,

If He So Wills, your version of Christianity might even be true,

But really, who in his right mind, would wish for Jesus to have been crucified and thereafter deified after having known The Formless Being?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Jesus (Peace and Prayers be upon him and his disciples) took birth and thus had a beginning.

God Always Existed, without beginning nor end, The Self-Subsisting Who Will Never Die.
Jesus, as a pre-incarnate being appears in the OT as the 'Angel of the Lord'. This should come as no surprise if God has had his hand in history from the beginning.

He is presented and treated quite differently from other beings described as angels...
 

manama

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I have been away on holiday and I'm just catching back up... I wondered if any of my Islamic friends might help me on this question?

We have gone back and forth on the question of 'have the scriptures been corrupted' and I am not here to try you again on that point, but rather, to ask if you think both the OT and NT are corrupt, to what extent and how far back does that corruption extend?

Apologies for the complex question, but I want to understand what our actual starting point is...
i don't know about others but if i am to put it in simple terms.
We believe in the Gospel of Jesus. Which was delivered orally and thus no longer exists.
That doesn't mean that the 4 gospels according to their writers do not have truth or Jesus's word or God's word in it,
But it not 100% God's word.
The rest has been explained by others
 
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Jesus (Peace and Prayers be upon him and his disciples) took birth and thus had a beginning.

God Always Existed, without beginning nor end, The Self-Subsisting Who Will Never Die.
The man Jesus that people could perceive had a beginning. If you talk to me on the phone, your voice didn't begin with my perception of your voice. Your voice already existed prior to me hearing it.
 
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