The Universality Of God

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amazing what i didn't know
i just learnt about a sect called the Christadelphians
and i thought when reading about them, they're some distant/vague group who aren't mainstream.
only to find there's a church just up the road from me...
a church i've seen ever since i was a kid...and i never noticed what type of church it was or even aware it was actually a church.

i'm going to go in there some day.
 

Loki

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OP reminded me of this Carlin bit:

"Military cemeteries around the world are packed with brainwashed dead soldiers who were convinced God was on their side. America prays for God to destroy our enemies. Our enemies pray for God to destroy us. Somebody's gonna be disappointed! Somebody's wasting their time! Could it be.. everyone?"
 

JoChris

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amazing what i didn't know
i just learnt about a sect called the Christadelphians
and i thought when reading about them, they're some distant/vague group who aren't mainstream.
only to find there's a church just up the road from me...
a church i've seen ever since i was a kid...and i never noticed what type of church it was or even aware it was actually a church.

i'm going to go in there some day.
If you do ever go make sure you're prepared. https://carm.org/christadelphianism
 

Lisa

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most Jews have no issue with this but you do.
They understand that we muslims have a shared monothiestic belief.
it is the christians who do not understand the basic gist of it.


Jerusalem
City of Salam
City of Peace
Shalom/Asalaam

christians are the ones with no connection

Arabic for God=Allah
Aramaic name for God
The Aramaic word for "God" in the language of Assyrian Christians is ʼĔlāhā, or Alah
what language did Jesus speak?


Of course in the Torah it says God will bless Ismael and make him a GREAT nation. This has only happened through islam. Before Prophet Mohammad SAW the arabs were not even a nation, but divided by tribes and fighting each other, no one respected them. The great empires didn't even care to conquer the land of hejaz.
The 12 princes refers to the 12 caliphs belonging to the tribe of Quraysh (the decendants of Ismael).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_of_the_Twelve_Successors


I have also stated many times that the word Father/Son are metaphorical terms and should not be taken literally.
What is the Son?
it is the Logos(word)/Image of God

What does the Quran say?
171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

The Quran clearly confirms Jesus is the Word/Logos..and as i've stated the Son is the Logos.
So you cannot say 'the Quran rejects him as the son of God' whilst you can see it confirms him as the logos.
There is no other person in the Quran who has this distinction ie called "His Word".

The reason the TERM "Son" is rejected in islam is the terminology is not universally understood. In it's original context it was just symbolic language. It wasn't meant to be taken literally, but after the trinitarian doctrine was invented 3 centuries after Jesus Christ...then these symbolic terms became literal amongst the ignorant (uneducated) folk.
I think the Jews are just trying to get along with their neighbors and not die. That's why they are living in Israel, they are hoping their nation can keep them alive, because wherever they go they are hated. I've read reports that they are fleeing France and going to Israel because of intense antisemitism from the muslims there.....

Yes, God gave Ishmael his own nation...but see its his own...not part of Abraham's covenant. Isaac was the child of promise through which the covenant went through...Ishmael was sent away.

Christian's do have a connection, we were grafted into the covenent by faith through grace in Jesus Christ. We then share the history...Ishmael can only share in that they have no other share, no one does. It is God's chosen people the Jews who have the everlasting covenant.

Honestly, islam has leeched off the Bible and has come up with its own version of events to try and have a portion of the covenant when the Bible clearly states that God gave the only portion to Isaac and Abraham was told to send Ishmael and his mom away...
Genesis 17:15-21
Then God said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. I will bless her, and indeed I will give you a son by her. Then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her." Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, "Will a child be born to a man one hundred years old? And will Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child? " And Abraham said to God, "Oh that Ishmael might live before You!" But God said, "No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this season next year."
You see, there is no Abrahamic faiths...there is only the one, through Isaac.

Muslims willfully misinterpret God's Son to mean something else entirely..so you see, its a different gospel, it has distorted the true gospel to add that which was never intended to add in that way. You may come to the throne of God through His Son Jesus, God the Son but there is no other way, the Bible left it that there was no other way.
 

floss

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Why believe the Bible over the Quran? The Bible is true because the Bible says the Bible is true. This is circular reasoning. Plus the Muslim says the same thing about the Quran.
Do you believe God would need to send another prophet/book after the completed work of God via Jesus?

Also some verses regarding gentiles and how they are judged by the law of their heart.

Roman 1
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man

Roman 2
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them
 

Lisa

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OP reminded me of this Carlin bit:

"Military cemeteries around the world are packed with brainwashed dead soldiers who were convinced God was on their side. America prays for God to destroy our enemies. Our enemies pray for God to destroy us. Somebody's gonna be disappointed! Somebody's wasting their time! Could it be.. everyone?"
Well, the Bible did say that there will be wars and rumors of wars...
 

Loki

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Well, the Bible did say that there will be wars and rumors of wars...
That's the vaguest, and most likely to be right, prophecy I've ever seen; it could literally pertain to all of human history. I also can't help but feel you missed the underlying point of the quote.
 

manama

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And then there is this matter- why should I believe the Christians over the Muslims? Both say "this is the only way!". Both will tell me "because God said so". If both say "God said so" then how am I to say which side God is with. The Christian will bring out Bible verses and the Muslim will bring out verses from the Quran. The Bible is true because the Bible says it's true. The Quran is true because the Quran said it's true. If I am to devote my life to one set of doctrines then I would need something more objective than circular reasoning.
well i personally believe in Quran or islam because
- No contradictions in its own text
- No scientific contradictions, it even explained many things correctly before the study was established in science
- Detailed prophecies coming true
- Proper reasoning given for every command

everyone has their own reasons for belief though but these are mine
 

Lisa

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That's the vaguest, and most likely to be right, prophecy I've ever seen; it could literally pertain to all of human history. I also can't help but feel you missed the underlying point of the quote.
I might, but then again, maybe I don't...you are saying people are fighting wars and wanting victory in the name of their God, I'm saying God knew that there would be wars.
 

Loki

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I might, but then again, maybe I don't...you are saying people are fighting wars and wanting victory in the name of their God, I'm saying God knew that there would be wars.
Saying God knew there would be wars is like saying God knew there would be people pooping. Wars are incredibly common throughout human history, in fact, you'd be hard pressed to find moments in history where no wars were going on.

The point of the joke is that both sides of any war are praying to their God to help them win the war. So, either they are praying to 2 different gods and thus monotheism isn't real, or they are praying to the same God to help each of them fight the other and one of them will be disappointed when they lose, or more than likely God doesn't factor in at all and it doesn't pick sides or care about the things we get up to and so both sides are wasting their time praying over it.
 

Lisa

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Saying God knew there would be wars is like saying God knew there would be people pooping. Wars are incredibly common throughout human history, in fact, you'd be hard pressed to find moments in history where no wars were going on.

The point of the joke is that both sides of any war are praying to their God to help them win the war. So, either they are praying to 2 different gods and thus monotheism isn't real, or they are praying to the same God to help each of them fight the other and one of them will be disappointed when they lose, or more than likely God doesn't factor in at all and it doesn't pick sides or care about the things we get up to and so both sides are wasting their time praying over it.
Ya, but God didn't say, and people will be pooping, He said that there will be wars and rumors of wars.

God cares about people, definitely, He did send His Son to die for our sins...doesn't mean He always answerers our prayers in the way we want...You can trust God to do what is good for us.
 

Loki

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Ya, but God didn't say, and people will be pooping, He said that there will be wars and rumors of wars.

God cares about people, definitely, He did send His Son to die for our sins...doesn't mean He always answerers our prayers in the way we want...You can trust God to do what is good for us.


You're exhausting Lisa.
 

floss

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- No scientific contradictions, it even explained many things correctly before the study was
Like this?

Quran18:86
when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of dark mud, and he found near it a people
 

manama

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Like this?

Quran18:86
when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of dark mud, and he found near it a people
thats talking about the king dhul qurnain

Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it [as if] setting in a spring of dark mud, and he found near it a people. Allah said, "O Dhul-Qarnayn, either you punish [them] or else adopt among them [a way of] goodness."

if you are going to quote it atleast quote it whole LOL
its not saying the sun was setting in a spring of dark mud, that is what it appeared to dhul qurnain. Its describing a scenery. Similarly we say the sun rised or sun set or we say that it set behind the mountains.

The sun neither rises nor it sets and especially not behind mountains. Thats a figure of speech, description of the view.

Try harder next time lol
 

Loki

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I got into it with Scimi and a couple of others a year or two ago on the old forums over the hadith about dunking a fly that lands in your drink fully into the drink because one wing carries disease while the other cures it. They were purporting that it had been scientifically proven but it was actually a very small and flawed study done in a Muslim University with no real control or peer review, so it was essentially useless nonsense. Dunking flies in your water is not safe or healthy, please don't do this.

I'm not sure if hadiths really count for or against Quranic science accuracy though.
 

floss

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thats talking about the king dhul qurnain

Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it [as if] setting in a spring of dark mud, and he found near it a people. Allah said, "O Dhul-Qarnayn, either you punish [them] or else adopt among them [a way of] goodness."

if you are going to quote it atleast quote it whole LOL
its not saying the sun was setting in a spring of dark mud, that is what it appeared to dhul qurnain. Its describing a scenery. Similarly we say the sun rised or sun set or we say that it set behind the mountains.

The sun neither rises nor it sets and especially not behind mountains. Thats a figure of speech, description of the view.

Try harder next time lol
That mean your prophet is wrong as well...

Sunan Abu Dawud 3991—Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water.
 

manama

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I got into it with Scimi and a couple of others a year or two ago on the old forums over the hadith about dunking a fly that lands in your drink fully into the drink because one wing carries disease while the other cures it. They were purporting that it had been scientifically proven but it was actually a very small and flawed study done in a Muslim University with no real control or peer review, so it was essentially useless nonsense. Dunking flies in your water is not safe or healthy, please don't do this.

I'm not sure if hadiths really count for or against Quranic science accuracy though.
wasn't that hadith only about that we shouldn't waste food or water just because a fly hovered on it?
i know that flies carrying diseases is true and also the cure thing because antidotes have been extracted from flies and also they balance the ecosystem so them sitting on food isn't that harmful that people throw food away
meh

Some people take things too literally
 

manama

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That mean your prophet is wrong as well...

Sunan Abu Dawud 3991—Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water.
nope thats a weak narration and not part of sahih narrations.
commonly thought that someone confused the verse and wrote it as hadith

like i said before
try harder next time LOL
 

Loki

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wasn't that hadith only about that we shouldn't waste food or water just because a fly hovered on it?
i know that flies carrying diseases is true and also the cure thing because antidotes have been extracted from flies and also they balance the ecosystem so them sitting on food isn't that harmful that people throw food away
meh

Some people take things too literally
That could be. It was a while back and my memory is shoddy when it comes to things I don't really care about lol. I just know that I went through a lot of research trying to figure out if there was any real validity to the hadith and could find none that was reputable. But yes, a lot of people take things too literally, especially when it concerns ancient texts when we were much more prone to using prose, metaphor, hyperbole, and other literary techniques in our writings.
 
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