Look it up. Sheol equals a GRAVE. Hell is a translation of the word Sheol.
The Universality Of God
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AspiringSoul
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Thing is you have to differentiate between Jesus the man and Christ/the Word/Son/Logos.
Jesus the man was a servant like it says in Isaiah 53. Now when you look at John 14:6 is it Jesus the man speaking or is it the Logos speaking?
Well, what do we know about the Son/Logos?
Matthew 11
"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
now in my understanding the Logos is the universal consciousness, it's the ocean and we're like drops from that ocean. so to truely fully experience God, we have to become the ocean.
in this book Madam Guyon referred to the soul as a river..and described the different types of rivers and their journey back to the ocean.
This, of course, supposes the faithfulness of the soul; for in whatever state it may be, it is possible for it to recede
and fall back into itself. But here the soul progresses infinitely in God; and it is possible for it to advance incessantly;
just as, if the sea had no bottom, any one falling into it would sink to infinitude, and going down to greater and
greater depths of the ocean, would discover more and more of its beauties and treasures. It is even thus with the soul
whose home is in God
http://www.akademijavjecnogproljeca.org/guyon/eng/Spiritual_Torrents_Guyon.pdf
This is perfectly in tune with what is written islamic/sufi, hindu, even sikh teachings. The fact that they all have this shared understanding makes it clear that they do in principle agree with the statement of Matthew 11 or John 14...if you take the 'Son' to be the ocean.
Christians take it further by insisting it specifically/only refers to Jesus Christ, the man etc...
whilst in Islam it's a matter of disbelief to not believe in Jesus Christ, the Christians go even further
"no, unless you make him your God and believe he died for your sins, your belief is not sincere"
imo you're taking things too far and too literally without understanding the hint ie what Jesus said in John 14, why he said.
If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him
he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Still, I don't believe the Son/Logos is God in it's own right. God is the Father (the Essence of God) revealed through the Son (where the Son is the expression of the Essence), it's like comparing a light to a prism, which is not the light in it's own right but it reveals the light (refraction).
So the light is known through the prism, ie Father is known through the Son.
In addition to that you have the whole matter of the "Word made flesh" ie the Logos incarnating into Jesus Christ the man.
It isn't really that much different to a person who reaches the ocean ie becomes enlightened.
The reason i'm saying all this is because Christians need to be more open minded in understanding the plurality of the Logos ie it isn't unique only to Jesus Christ. It has revealed itself in different ways through different people, religions etc...most notably through Krishna, so you should read the Bhagvad Gita. If you read the Gita and had the understanding that it was the logos speaking, you would learn a lot from it that'd compliment your understanding of the new testament.
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AspiringSoul
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Hell is called Abaddon.
Which is by definition and according to the Hebrew strongs is a place of ruin/destruction opposed to a lake of fire.
AspiringSoul
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fire actually really refers to desire/craving, it is just metaphorical language
now why is fire further associated with 'hell'?
example
Job 31:12
For it is a fire that consumeth unto Abaddon
just like in buddhism, craving is the root of all suffering.
What hell represents is a place where we can't fulfill our desires. Of course i can draw from islamic sources to put this into context...
(2) Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The (hell) Fire is surrounded by all kinds of desires and passions, while Paradise is surrounded by all kinds of adversities." (Book #76, Hadith #494)
I think what you're forgetting is the origins of Gehenna (Jahannum in islam).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna
In the Hebrew Bible, Gehenna was initially where some of the kings of Judah sacrificed their children by fire.[1] Thereafter it was deemed to be cursed
see Gehenna was adopted as a metaphor for Abaddon. The descriptions of paradise and hell in the Quran are also metaphorical
ie the flowing streams of water represent the flow of prana/etheric life force through the 7 chakras, where the 7 chakras also represent the 7 heavens
the trees/fruits represent the cultivation of faith.
The bitter tree/fruit in hell represent the lack of faith in God and bad seeds (ie intentions).
The nature of desire that's in us, is such that, it has no end...we're constantly desiring new things. The idea is to aim our desire towards the Absolute/Eternal ie God and make Him the source of our ideals/virtues...as opposed to aiming our desires towards the earth, when we're going to leave the earth..this is why death occurs when we are bound into hades/barzakh/sheol because we can no longer fulfill our desires....
however most people tend to have some faith so it's a bit like the analogy Jesus gave of the camel passing through the eye of the needle. Even a very small amount of belief/faith in God will eventually be enough to redeem us.
Job used the word fire. God use the words flame, consume...but in regard to hell its always referencing death/pit/grave and in that context.
There will be a lake of fire alright, if that's what you all want to call it ? The thing is it's going to be on this earth. Leading to hell/death/grave/pit, contempt, salvation....only god knows ?
There will be a lake of fire alright, if that's what you all want to call it ? The thing is it's going to be on this earth. Leading to hell/death/grave/pit, contempt, salvation....only god knows ?
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AspiringSoul
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i don't quite get the point you're making
what is the end game here?
the end game is still the same
Revelation 20:14
14 And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.
Proverbs 27:20:
Sheol and Abaddon are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.
so let's assume the lake of fire is a metaphor for our internal fire, ie the craving/tanha
and let's assume Abaddon is a metaphor for Dukkha=suffering
or the otherway round....
...we go to hell and we burn in the fire
that's the end game.
Dukkha as a raging fire
"The All is aflame. What All is aflame? The eye is aflame. Forms are aflame. Consciousness at the eye is aflame. Contact at the eye is aflame. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is aflame. Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I tell you, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs.
"The ear is aflame. Sounds are aflame...
"The nose is aflame. Aromas are aflame...
"The tongue is aflame. Flavors are aflame...
"The body is aflame. Tactile sensations are aflame...
"The intellect is aflame. Ideas are aflame. Consciousness at the intellect is aflame. Contact at the intellect is aflame. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is aflame. Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I say, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs."
— SN 35.28
what is the end game here?
the end game is still the same
Revelation 20:14
14 And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.
Proverbs 27:20:
Sheol and Abaddon are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.
so let's assume the lake of fire is a metaphor for our internal fire, ie the craving/tanha
and let's assume Abaddon is a metaphor for Dukkha=suffering
or the otherway round....
...we go to hell and we burn in the fire
that's the end game.
Dukkha as a raging fire
"The All is aflame. What All is aflame? The eye is aflame. Forms are aflame. Consciousness at the eye is aflame. Contact at the eye is aflame. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is aflame. Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I tell you, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs.
"The ear is aflame. Sounds are aflame...
"The nose is aflame. Aromas are aflame...
"The tongue is aflame. Flavors are aflame...
"The body is aflame. Tactile sensations are aflame...
"The intellect is aflame. Ideas are aflame. Consciousness at the intellect is aflame. Contact at the intellect is aflame. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is aflame. Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I say, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs."
— SN 35.28
Proverbs 27:20. Words used were DEATH and DESTRUCTION.
Exactly as I said. The argument is: the location. Hell/death/grave/pit....speaks for itself.
Fire/flames/consume/destruction......EARTH
The point is that most Christians believe you burn in a lake of fire....when a fire will consume the earth ( judgment). A day described as a day of darkness and gloom.
That's not the same thing as burning in an eternal hell. The earth will be consumed and RESTORED.
It's very simple. To me, you are jumping through hoops to prove a point. Typical Christianity imo. You always have to turn it upside down. Squint a little, with one eye close.....and there it is.
My post consists of one or two sentences. The truth is simple.
No offense. Just something I wanted to point out.
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AspiringSoul
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words have meanings and context, you don't just take the word and remove it from all context........
so going back to Proverbs 27
different translations, that's all
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+27
Sheol and Abaddon are never satisfied,
english standard version
You: but sheol only means death and that is it
Abaddon only means destruction and that is it
lake of fire is neither sheol nor abaddon because it means something else and that is it
but they clearly are connected
Revelation 20:14
14 And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.
Proverbs 27:20:
Sheol and Abaddon are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.
the eyes of men not being satisfied, refers to lust
lust is a desire, now this is where i start posting info about the nature of tanha/craving and dukhha, suffering..buddhist concepts
it's pretty obv im a muslim given i quoted from hadith earlier....pay attention.
Muslims, Christians (the religious to sum it up ) are all the same to me.
Each have their own book. Christians, the NT. Muslims, the Quran.
I only follow the words of The Most High and his prophets ( OT)
In the OT there is no lake of fire and that's a fact.
Sorry if the Quran support the idea of this lake of fire, but I'm not surprised considering it was the Christians who helped develop the Quran. The Quran is basically a collection of the NT/OT.
These are the type of flaws that expose this fact.
AspiringSoul
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no, the specific story of the lake of fire is in Revelation, not in the Quran, however the Quran and hadith do contain descriptions of hell as....well....'hell fire' amongst other things.
Of course, you basically have no understanding and have no regard for wider context here and that can be seen clearly. You've offered no argument. I've done more in depth. You've then chosen to bring up islam/christianity.
"it was the Christians who helped develop the Quran"
You mean Christians who believe in the trinitarian doctrine, helped develop a book that openly declares the trinitarian doctrine as false? you feeling okay?
The Quran is basically a collection of the NT/OT.
We believe in the OT and the NT, so you don't have a point here. It does recall some of the Bible stories/themes but as reminders/confirmations of those stories but it has it's own style and theme in many parts.
if you only believe in the OT then stick to the OT and don't argue with people who also believe in other scriptures.
Proverbs 27:20:
Sheol and Abaddon are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.
Job 31:12: it is a fire that consumes to destruction (Abaddon)
both verses refer to lust. Lust is a fire...and lust is connected to Sheol and Abaddon.
I also clearly explained to you that "lake of fire" is a metaphor for this fire (ie craving/desire that's in us)..
Lisa
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The answer to your question is how old is islam? Islam claims to be part of the Abrahamic faith...but when was their book written? Long after the Old Testament....long after the New Testament.
Islam takes the Biblical stories and gives them a twist...none of those things were Jewish...Interesting since the Old Testament is totally about the Jews being God's chosen people. There is nothing in there about what would have been Ishmael's line after Ishmael and his mother were sent away....The Bible is all about the Jews. Even in the New Testament...God's Son was sent to His people the Jews. It was only after they rejected Jesus that God turned His attention to the gentiles. The quran takes Biblical stories out of context and makes them their own...after the fact.
The quran was given to mohammad from an angel. The Bible tells us in Galatians:
But, even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! How did the Bible know that angel's would come and preach a different gospel? That was written long before the quran or even the mormon's book...But the Bible already knew that was gonna happen and it tells us what God thinks about that...they should be accursed! Wow!
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Lisa
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I don't know what the Sisyphus type is...but in the lake of fire there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth...so not instantly.
AspiringSoul
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lisa
your post is full of ignorance.
We take those stories and make them about us?
wow
do you have any idea of how much God talks about the Bani Israel/jews in the Quran?
(1) O Children of israel! Remember My Favour which I bestowed upon you, and fulfil (your obligations to) My Covenant (with you) so that I fulfil (My Obligations to) your covenant (with Me), and fear none but Me.
(سورة البقرة, Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #40)
(3) And (O Children of israel, remember) when We took your covenant and We raised above you the Mount (saying): "Hold fast to that which We have given you, and remember that which is therein so that you may become Al-Muttaqun (the pious - See V.2:2).
(سورة البقرة, Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #63)
It is not even fair for me to have to quote verses from the Quran, you've obviously never read the Quran. You're only trying to find material against islam online.
Also, how can the Quran be #another gospel when it, itself...refers to the original gospel given to Jesus Christ as 'the truth'?
the only difference is that muslims do not agree with your interpretations.
I have stated over and over again that I believe in the New testament.....but i don't have your interpretations.
The "other gospel" Paul was referring to, was not some distant future religious scripture (ie the Quran), but the different types of teachings being taught amongst christians in HIS time
But, even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now
This is Galatians 1
Do you know any of the background context to Galatans?
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servantb]">[b] of Christ.
the irony here is YOU and many other ignorant christians who have distorted the gospel of Christ. You can't deny it because here,you've done it right in front of us.
AspiringSoul
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AspiringSoul
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that is some choice logic right there.
im sorry for swearing but that made me laugh out loud.
im sorry for swearing but that made me laugh out loud.
Lisa
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I'm not the ignorant one...those stories were in a book loooonnnngggg before the quran. And ya, islam took stories and made it about them...
And I would say that yes...you guys are a different gospel, its not Biblical in any sense. Jesus is the Son of God and God was well pleased with His Son. Aren't you distorting the gospel when you say that He isn't the Son of God but merely a prophet?
AspiringSoul
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most Jews have no issue with this but you do.
They understand that we muslims have a shared monothiestic belief.
it is the christians who do not understand the basic gist of it.
Jerusalem
City of Salam
City of Peace
Shalom/Asalaam
christians are the ones with no connection
Arabic for God=Allah
Aramaic name for God
The Aramaic word for "God" in the language of Assyrian Christians is ʼĔlāhā, or Alah
what language did Jesus speak?
Of course in the Torah it says God will bless Ismael and make him a GREAT nation. This has only happened through islam. Before Prophet Mohammad SAW the arabs were not even a nation, but divided by tribes and fighting each other, no one respected them. The great empires didn't even care to conquer the land of hejaz.
The 12 princes refers to the 12 caliphs belonging to the tribe of Quraysh (the decendants of Ismael).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_of_the_Twelve_Successors
I have also stated many times that the word Father/Son are metaphorical terms and should not be taken literally.
What is the Son?
it is the Logos(word)/Image of God
What does the Quran say?
171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
The Quran clearly confirms Jesus is the Word/Logos..and as i've stated the Son is the Logos.
So you cannot say 'the Quran rejects him as the son of God' whilst you can see it confirms him as the logos.
There is no other person in the Quran who has this distinction ie called "His Word".
The reason the TERM "Son" is rejected in islam is the terminology is not universally understood. In it's original context it was just symbolic language. It wasn't meant to be taken literally, but after the trinitarian doctrine was invented 3 centuries after Jesus Christ...then these symbolic terms became literal amongst the ignorant (uneducated) folk.
Loki
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Oh, oh! I can answer this! It's the one with "weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Loki
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Huh, it's almost as if each successive culture put their own cultural spin on this "Yahweh" character so that it was more palatable for the peoples of that region.