"The Thunder, Perfect Mind"

Tidal

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I disagree entirely about the question of reincarnation. It is not only logical, but it is the only logical solution to various problems..

The Reincarnation notion is satanic to the bloody core.. :p
Logic it out, we can just imagine satan saying "Don't worry about hell, you'll get a chance to avoid it by being born again and again" as if life is a video game with a never-ending series of "lives".
The Bible is crystal clear that we get just one life, one chance.
Jesus said to the guy on the cross next to him- "Today you'll be with me in paradise", he didn't add "but later you'll be on the next bus back to earth"..:D
 

shankara

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OK, I read the text without much comprehension... without shouting you down, what message do you think this Nag Hammadi text is trying to convey? What is it’s merit?
Maybe @DavidSon will like this... I'm not sufficiently expert either in terms of my reading or spiritual practise to comment on all of the text, but I'll share my thoughts on a few of it's points...

"I am the silence that is incomprehensible
and the idea whose remembrance is frequent.
I am the voice whose sound is manifold
and the word whose appearance is multiple.
I am the utterance of my name."


Silence incomprehensible is the state of Samadhi, where consciousness is for some time free from mental noise and ideation. Yet, this same quality is also found in every thought, because every thought ultimately comes from the same source, if we recognize their true nature, neither arising nor ceasing. The voice whose sound is manifold could be something like the idea that every sound is the speech of the Buddhas, but could also perhaps refer to the notion of the various "Elohim" as the creative demiurge (in a non-pejorative sense) manifesting the "Word" or "Logos" in it's different rays, like the seven rays of white light passed through a prism. The word whose appearance is multiple could also refer to the latter, and to the truth that all religious teachings come from the same source, the same Logos, despite their outward appearance. I am the utterance of my name is referring to the fact that Divinity manifests in the form of sound, whether that be OM MANI PEME HUNG or HARE KRISHNA...

"Why, you who hate me, do you love me,
and hate those who love me?
You who deny me, confess me,
and you who confess me, deny me.
You who tell the truth about me, lie about me,
and you who have lied about me, tell the truth about me.
You who know me, be ignorant of me,
and those who have not known me, let them know me. "


The purport of this saying is that to believe in something (to "confess" it) is just the dualistic opposite of not believing in something. It is not the same as knowing it, experiencing it, being in the presence of it. The passage is pointing out that to make judgements based on belief is absurd. For example: Consider the case of a person who is intellectually a Marxist, but who in their heart has a great deal of love for humanity (another form of love for God), and in their life makes huge sacrifices due to this love. On the other hand we have a person who is religious but has no real love, they fulfill whatever minor demands their religion makes and enjoy the comfort of their salvation being assured. The former, "deny me", the latter "confess me", but in reality (in their heart), it is the former who is the servant of Divinity and the latter who is not.

This passage has a number of other meanings as well, which I'm not going to go into here.

Finally:

"For many are the pleasant forms which exist in numerous sins,
and incontinencies,
and disgraceful passions,
and fleeting pleasures,
which (men) embrace until they become sober
and go up to their resting place.
And they will find me there,
and they will live,
and they will not die again."


And there it is! The synthesis of all religions in a few lines.
 

shankara

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The Reincarnation notion is satanic to the bloody core.. :p
Logic it out, we can just imagine satan saying "Don't worry about hell, you'll get a chance to avoid it by being born again and again" as if life is a video game with a never-ending series of "lives".
The Bible is crystal clear that we get just one life, one chance.
Jesus said to the guy on the cross next to him- "Today you'll be with me in paradise", he didn't add "but later you'll be on the next bus back to earth"..:D
So you obviously don't understand the argument I made. As @Orwell's mentor mentioned, what of tribespeople who never have the chance to "know Jesus"? What about the severely autistic person who can't even comprehend language? Why is one person born in atrocious suffering and poverty while another is born in riches? (and the latter may be "Christian" and the former know nothing of so-called "Christianity"). Only previous lives can fully explain this (though the Mormons come close with the whole "pre-mortal life" thing).

Reincarnation is not a cop out. Being born again and again in Samsara is full of sufferings. Hence why the Buddha compares it to "fire" (see my signature).

It's true, there is no concept of Eternal Hell in the Dharmic religions, both because Samsara is already a kind of hell, and more importantly because evil actions are always finite in their effects, and thus cannot be punished by infinite suffering. You can try to get out of this by misinterpreting the whole apple/serpent story, but that makes no sense either.

Anyway, I'm not going to continue arguing with you about this, you didn't give any meaningful response to the points I made above and without such a response I don't think this discussion is really going anywhere.
 
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@shankara reincarnation, in the manner hinduism offers it, doesn't really make a great deal of sense. We have no recollection of any past life, therefore it makes no sense to make us 'suffer' for actions done in a past life.

let's be rational and think about it
what would be the most ideal form of spiritual growth? in my view, each person going through a process of education, knowing what/why they're experiencing it eg being made to examine their actions/thoughts.
BUT at the same time, we're all connected, so it can't just be an individual process but one that eventually becomes collective, until it's eventually a universal awakening.
maybe that's what it all is..returning to the universal consciousness.

plus, if you see each Spirit as a drop of water from an infinite ocean..
if one drop is thrown into fire, the water evaporates..it ceases to exist and then it becomes a cloud. So in that sense there is a return but a different process.
imagine all the evil/bad in the world basically being destroyed and then transmuting into another collective consciousness that experiences growth and returns to the source.

that makes far more sense than eternal hell.
as a muslim i have no problem having this view. plus religion contains a lot of mythos and symbolic type language.

look at it this way, we're all born pre-coded via our genes, into an environment we have little choice over. our choices are not really our own, they're driven by unconscious programming. so in the end if someone turns bad..even athiest, that's the way they were coded and raised. it was never a straight choice..since each person has genes, memories, a certain type of schooling/thinking process.
to even sugget that person is just going to be burning in an ETERNAL hell is most def absurd to me.

what if Allah was testing us with a narrative of eternal hell, to test OUR humanity? imagine literally believing in eternal hell and gleefully looking at 'disbelievers' thinking 'yehh...eternal hell for you' whilst also thinking you're righteous and good with God. imagine being that delusional.
A compassionate human wouldn't be okay with an eternal hell..and we are not 'All-Merciful' like God.
At the very least islam does say this

My Mercy Prevails Over My Wrath
 

floss

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I think the point being made was that the idea that God creates people with literally no chance of salvation is an idea which is totally absurd and unjust.
It's because you don't have a clue of who Jesus is. If only you realized His power, then you will understand EVERYONE have a chance at salvation through the grace of God. These tribal folks, have they seek out God with all their heart without even knowing the name of Jesus?? IF they did, JESUS will appear to them, ANYWHERE in the world. JESUS IS ALIVE, not dead like buddha or momo. No one will have an excuse "ohhh I never heard of the name Jesus". It's BS to say these tribal folks have no chance at salvation.
 
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rainerann

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I enjoyed reading this. It reminded me of how important it is to not overcomplicate things, which isn't derived from a passage in particular. Taken from the text more directly, I took away that it is important to not be judgemental and that a person can exist with a great deal of internal hypocrisy that leads to outward deception.

It was a very simple message.
 

A Freeman

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@shankara reincarnation, in the manner hinduism offers it, doesn't really make a great deal of sense. We have no recollection of any past life, therefore it makes no sense to make us 'suffer' for actions done in a past life.
Reincarnation, as it's explained in both the Bible and the Quran makes perfect sense.

If it's understood that we are spiritual-Beings that are only temporarily "locked" inside of these human animal bodies, then everything we feel and experience through the body is a lesson or test, or a reward or punishment based on whether we learned our lessons and passed our tests.

Each time that a human-animal-body, that you have been using, dies, you are unlocked from it and taken onto the Astral Plain (Paradise) (which is here, but in another dimension, that cannot be seen with human-eyes), where you are asked, what you have learned, and you have your now past human-lifetime, that you have just lived, shown to you, and you are told (paradise - “para dice” – in order to be told) what you have done right, and what you have done wrong. That life is then summarized, and the evil; that you have learned in that lifetime; is erased from your memory, along with which human you were, but the good you have learned is retained. You are then sent back, onto this material plain, and locked-inside another body, to learn some more. The kind of body and surroundings will vary, depending on whether you are to be punished and taught humility, or whether you are to be rewarded. Perfect Divine Justice.

We can not remember what human we were previously, because that would cause us, and everyone else, a lot of pain, e.g. if an old man died and came back as a baby, remembering who he had been, and went to see his wife (now his widow), from his previous-lifetime, it would cause her; himself and his new parents, a lot of pain and would serve no useful purpose. Another reason, that we are not allowed to remember what human we were, is because; being the materialistic, selfish people that we are; if we could remember who we had been, we would go and try to claim what were our possessions. Wouldn’t we?

As the object of being here, is to learn to be unselfish; good and un-materialistic; allowing us to remember would be counterproductive. Also, we wouldn’t want to be able to remember being a murderer, or a rapist, or being murdered, would we?

What we do remember is all the good that we have learned. All those things that we KNOW are right; and that no-one, in our present-lifetime, has taught us; those are the things we have learned in our previous lifetimes.

If we live a good-life, we advance and shorten our sentence. If we live a bad-life, we go backwards and are punished. If we live a half-and-half type of life, we stay at the same place (same spiritual level), and just get a new body to use.

The trouble with staying at the same place, or going backwards, is that we are running-out of time to earn our pardon.

The higher one climbs, the harder it gets, and the more chance we have of making a mess of things, and going backwards, so the more we need God’s help.

THAT is the reality of our situation and why, after 6000 years, we will all be judged according to our works, both in this lifetime and in every other, for the cumulative good we've done.

Those who deserve to be redeemed will be redeemed. Those who don't deserve to be redeemed will go into The Fire, exactly as we've been warned about for thousands of years throughout the Bible and the Quran. There has to be personal responsibility for our actions. Perfect karma/just desserts.

It will be Perfect, Just, Fair and Merciful for all concerned, because Father (God) is all of those things and more. And the Judgement will be for eternity, which is why each of us should be focused on doing everything possible to good, like God, rather than wondering what it will be like if we don't.
 

Tidal

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..Anyway, I'm not going to continue arguing with you about this, you didn't give any meaningful response to the points I made above and without such a response I don't think this discussion is really going anywhere.

Mate, it's none of my business if you reincarnationists have been duped by satan into rejecting Jesus's offer to get us off this prison-planet once and for all.. :p
Jesus said- "God has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners...to release the oppressed" (Luke 4:18 )

 

shankara

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@shankara reincarnation, in the manner hinduism offers it, doesn't really make a great deal of sense. We have no recollection of any past life, therefore it makes no sense to make us 'suffer' for actions done in a past life.

let's be rational and think about it
what would be the most ideal form of spiritual growth? in my view, each person going through a process of education, knowing what/why they're experiencing it eg being made to examine their actions/thoughts.
BUT at the same time, we're all connected, so it can't just be an individual process but one that eventually becomes collective, until it's eventually a universal awakening.
maybe that's what it all is..returning to the universal consciousness.

plus, if you see each Spirit as a drop of water from an infinite ocean..
if one drop is thrown into fire, the water evaporates..it ceases to exist and then it becomes a cloud. So in that sense there is a return but a different process.
imagine all the evil/bad in the world basically being destroyed and then transmuting into another collective consciousness that experiences growth and returns to the source.

that makes far more sense than eternal hell.
as a muslim i have no problem having this view. plus religion contains a lot of mythos and symbolic type language.

look at it this way, we're all born pre-coded via our genes, into an environment we have little choice over. our choices are not really our own, they're driven by unconscious programming. so in the end if someone turns bad..even athiest, that's the way they were coded and raised. it was never a straight choice..since each person has genes, memories, a certain type of schooling/thinking process.
to even sugget that person is just going to be burning in an ETERNAL hell is most def absurd to me.

what if Allah was testing us with a narrative of eternal hell, to test OUR humanity? imagine literally believing in eternal hell and gleefully looking at 'disbelievers' thinking 'yehh...eternal hell for you' whilst also thinking you're righteous and good with God. imagine being that delusional.
A compassionate human wouldn't be okay with an eternal hell..and we are not 'All-Merciful' like God.
At the very least islam does say this

My Mercy Prevails Over My Wrath
I disagree, though I very much like what you are saying, it makes a lot of sense. You're right that everyone is conditioned by the circumstances of their birth and due to this chances of spiritual attainment are different for different people.

However what you say about not remembering past lives, it must be understood that the only reason we don't remember is due to the previous Karma we have accumulated. If a person doesn't have the Karma of forgetting them, they will remember, but for the majority of people it would be better for the moment if they don't. To put it simply, I think that if a person realized exactly what they have to do in a situation, they would also understand what not to do. This would give them a certain degree of power which they wouldn't have the necessary wisdom to be able to use properly.

Because remembering past lives would also include an individual having a certain kind of knowledge of the self, seeing the different psychological complexes which motivate their actions. They would be visible in the events of past lives, the person would understand all their subconscious ways of reacting. This self knowledge could be used for bad as well, for giving power to those complexes in order to attain power over others (as in Monarch programming, in which the different separated egos or in the Jungian term "autonomous complexes", become a dissociated monster of ego).

If a person wants to remember their past lives, there are exercises to do so. Anyway, when a person progresses on the spiritual path they will naturally come to remember them at the time when it becomes useful to them. We start out groping around in the darkness, developing good intentions and the desire to make a struggle. Insight and knowledge come later, at the point when we are able to use them for the good rather than just to feed ego.

Anyway, just to be clear, ignorance of past lives is just another part of Karma and not a permanent state, just as all forms of ignorance including the "Evangelical" kind displayed on this forum are due to Karma.
 

shankara

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It will be Perfect, Just, Fair and Merciful for all concerned... And the Judgement will be for eternity
You claim that "The Thunder, Perfect Mind" is self-contradictory and yet you come out with things like that. You should listen to what AspiringSoul has to say, because it makes a lot of sense:

A compassionate human wouldn't be okay with an eternal hell..and we are not 'All-Merciful' like God.
If you are actually capable of even taking into consideration the beliefs of others if they aren't members of your little sect.

Take a hike and go spread your fear rhetoric elsewhere. It disturbs people's minds and serves the very forces you claim to detest.

FEAR IS THE MIND-KILLER as Frank Herbert said... Including fear of "eternal hell".
 
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What I get from the text is a perspective of the Christ as spirit. God is a spirit and seeks those who worship Him in spirit and in truth. In the beginning was the Word, and the word was made flesh and dwelt among us. The text presents the perspective of the Word, the "I am" of the Christ that was before Abraham, the divine Being that incarnated within Jesus and spoke His light through him. "I am the bread of life, I am the door, I am the way, the truth, and the life, I am the shephard". Here the divine Christ, the cosmic principle, the Word, speaks saying he is within all things and beyond them, not affected by the duality we perceive, not affected by the duality of the mind of human beings. By aligning our soul with that principle, believing in it in christian terminology, our soul is saved from the suffering of relative human life by the Christ which is beyond it.
 

shankara

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What I get from the text is a perspective of the Christ as spirit. God is a spirit and seeks those who worship Him in spirit and in truth. In the beginning was the Word, and the word was made flesh and dwelt among us. The text presents the perspective of the Word, the "I am" of the Christ that was before Abraham, the divine Being that incarnated within Jesus and spoke His light through him. "I am the bread of life, I am the door, I am the way, the truth, and the life, I am the shephard". Here the divine Christ, the cosmic principle, the Word, speaks saying he is within all things and beyond them, not affected by the duality we perceive, not affected by the duality of the mind of human beings. By aligning our soul with that principle, believing in it in christian terminology, our soul is saved from the suffering of relative human life by the Christ which is beyond it.
Thankyou for that beautiful reflection from a perspective I hadn't considered, very illuminating. It makes me think of the Kabbalistic Logos, the trinity of Kether, Chokmah and Binah. Kether is the masculine, Chokmah the feminine and Binah the androgyne or union of the two others - so from this perspective Christ is the feminine.
 

shankara

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From my understanding of Kabbalah, Christ is associated with the feminine element of the Logoic Trinity. That doesn't mean that He is actually female. To put it in terms of Gurdjieff there is the HOLY AFFIRMING, HOLY DENYING and HOLY RECONCILING as the Trinity. Or one could put in terms of chemistry, PROTON, ELECTRON and NEUTRON. The Christ is associated with the second of each of these.
 

Lisa

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From my understanding of Kabbalah, Christ is associated with the feminine element of the Logoic Trinity. That doesn't mean that He is actually female. To put it in terms of Gurdjieff there is the HOLY AFFIRMING, HOLY DENYING and HOLY RECONCILING as the Trinity. Or one could put in terms of chemistry, PROTON, ELECTRON and NEUTRON. The Christ is associated with the second of each of these.
The Son is seen as female?
 

shankara

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The Son is seen as female?
So I thought about trying to explain this in terms of Dialectics (like Hegel), but I think that's needlessly complicated.

Rather we can see it like this:
The Sephirothic Crown.jpg

Now it is said that the Masculine is Wisdom and the Feminine is Love. Christ represents perfect Love.
 

Lisa

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So I thought about trying to explain this in terms of Dialectics (like Hegel), but I think that's needlessly complicated.

Rather we can see it like this:
View attachment 35620

Now it is said that the Masculine is Wisdom and the Feminine is Love. Christ represents perfect Love.
Yet, it was God the Father’s love for people that sent the Son as a once for all sacrifice for sins...
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whomsoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.​
 

shankara

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Yet, it was God the Father’s love for people that sent the Son as a once for all sacrifice for sins...
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whomsoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.​
Obviously I don't see things in the same way you do, but I would say that it was Christ who had the Love for Humanity to suffer all the things He suffered. And didn't He say that His wisdom was from the Father, not Himself? I mean, I'm not even committed to the whole doctrine about God being a Trinity, only that in the manifest universe there are always three forces at work, but for me the text of the NT fits pretty well with the Kabbalistic idea.

There are men who have great love and women who have great wisdom, so obviously it's not a binary duality, one excluding the other. Just like this text "The Thunder, Perfect Mind" is about how opposites each contain the other. A text which is written in a feminine voice, of which @lightseeker had the reflection that it might be the voice of the Christ, thus leading me to think of how the Logoic Trinity is considered in the Kabbalah, with Chokmah as the feminine.
 

Lisa

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Obviously I don't see things in the same way you do, but I would say that it was Christ who had the Love for Humanity to suffer all the things He suffered. And didn't He say that His wisdom was from the Father, not Himself? I mean, I'm not even committed to the whole doctrine about God being a Trinity, only that in the manifest universe there are always three forces at work, but for me the text of the NT fits pretty well with the Kabbalistic idea.

There are men who have great love and women who have great wisdom, so obviously it's not a binary duality, one excluding the other. Just like this text "The Thunder, Perfect Mind" is about how opposites each contain the other. A text which is written in a feminine voice, of which @lightseeker had the reflection that it might be the voice of the Christ, thus leading me to think of how the Logoic Trinity is considered in the Kabbalah, with Chokmah as the feminine.
So you are going to ignore that it was the Father’s love that sent the Son? Ok...I mean whatever fits your narrative?

And we also see that man was made in God’s image..Man was made in the likeness of God...all three.
Genesis‬ ‭1:26‬ ‭
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness.

Genesis‬ ‭1:27‬ ‭
God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him.​
‭‭
‭‭
Woman was made as a helper for man and so man wouldn’t be alone...that is what dictated how woman was...and woman wasn’t made in God’s image...just man.
Genesis‬ ‭2:18-22‬ ‭
Then the LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him. So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.
‭‭​
 
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