You haven't built a case for the 24 elders being the apostles and the tribes of Israel. Your entire argument is that 12 and 12 make 24. You don't account for why Israel would be included among the elders when Israel has not yet been redeemed. You don't explain how the 24 could represent every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation in history when, by your theory, every single elder is Jewish. How do 24 Jewish guys represent all the different peoples of the earth?
Does 12 and 12 make 24? Its as good as your theory...
Israel hasn’t been redeemed..but does that include the sons of Jacob? The nation of Israel is about the sons of Jacob isn’t it? And isn’t Abraham the father of all nations? Aren’t they then his heirs?
Genesis 17:5
No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.
Then the 12 disciples who began as Jews and ended up Christians..following after the teachings of Jesus..how wouldn’t they be a part of it?
You know we are grafted into an olive tree..right? We aren’t separate from that faith of Abraham...and the covenant he has with God. Let’s not be conceited about this..they are only broken off for a little while.
Romans 11:19-21
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
What makes you think the point of the rapture of the Church is to prevent believers from experiencing hardship?
I didn’t say that the rapture of the church was to prevent us from experiencing hardship...I think we do experience the hardship of the tribulation but we aren’t going to experience the wrath of God..sort of like with Noah..he didn’t have to be in the flood..God’s wrath/judgement, but was saved from it.
I think the pre trib position is that God loves them so much that he will save them from the trib and they won’t have to experience any of it...which I isn’t supported in scripture like they think it is.
Why would Christians be flogged in synagogues during the Tribulation? That whole passage is for Jews.
Ya, that is a little shaky isn’t it...I will withdraw that verse for now.
I'm not sure how you can be given seven examples of the same event -- what the Bible calls a catching away -- and still be hung up on the dead in Christ rising first during one of them. It's not a common feature of the other six raptures. Being caught up to God without seeing death is. Why are you so fixated on the dead in Christ?
Because the dead in Christ means that there aren’t other raptures. If there were other raptures..than why would their still be the dead? And the verse says...
1 Thessalonians 4:15
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
I don’t see how there can be other raptures when we who are alive will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
Yes. The elders are the Church. The Church will be raptured (and has been, at that point).
There is no instance of the elders singing that..but those that were raptured.
I'm not saying the 24 elders are the Church because there are 24 of them. I'm saying the elders are the Church because of the song they sing, because they are in Heaven with the Lord at the beginning of the Tribulation, because they wear crowns, because they wear white, because they are out of every nation and tongue on earth, and because nothing else makes sense.
I think that’s reaching and tbh trying to fit it into a pre trib rapture...
How can you be serious right now?
I would ask you the same thing...
If the antichrist isn't revealed until he stops the sacrifices, explain
Daniel 9:27, which tells us he will confirm a covenant for seven years, but won't stop the sacrifices until halfway through it. Won't he be revealed, then, when he confirms the covenant?
The Thessalonians had heard that Jesus Christ had already returned, and that the day of the Lord was at hand. The passage in 2 Thessalonians says we can be sure that Jesus Christ has
not yet returned, because the apostasy hasn't happened, and the antichrist hasn't been revealed. Don't confuse the coming of our Lord Jesus with our gathering together to him. The Second Advent and the Rapture of the Church are two different events, at two different times. Jesus Christ doesn't return at the Rapture, and we aren't raptured at his return. 2 Thessalonians is one of the most difficult chapters in the Bible to divide correctly, but you can be sure it doesn't say that the Church won't be raptured until after the antichrist is revealed.
He’s the one that confirms the covenant..doesn’t mean that he’s made the covenant. I don’t think he’s the maker of the covenant which is why he isn’t revealed until the abomination of desolation.
Jesus only returns once..ya? And aren’t the raptured ones meeting Him in the clouds? If that‘s the case..this is a one time deal.
Can you explain this with verses, please? When does John ask the elder who all these people are?
When John first gets to heaven he looks around and sees only 24 people...
Revelation 4:1-4
After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne. And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, like an emerald in appearance. Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads.
Later on...before the 7th seal and God’s wrath..
Revelation 7:9, 13-14
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.