The Three Raptures / Three Harvests

Lisa

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The Epistles are only about the Church, those who are alive that are raptured are those Church members that have not passed yet, that will be caught up with those bodies that were deceased in the Lord. During the rapture of the Church, our bodies will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.
What do you mean with those bodies that were deceased in the Lord?
 






Thunderian

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That’s my way of being polite and trying to have a conversation with people, trying to say you might be able to convince me I’m wrong. Which you haven’t been able to do. I’ve also given scripture references for what I believe.
You haven't built a case for the 24 elders being the apostles and the tribes of Israel. Your entire argument is that 12 and 12 make 24. You don't account for why Israel would be included among the elders when Israel has not yet been redeemed. You don't explain how the 24 could represent every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation in history when, by your theory, every single elder is Jewish. How do 24 Jewish guys represent all the different peoples of the earth?

I don’t believe that he was raptured. God just took Enoch because they were close, He wasn’t preventing him for experiencing a hardship, which is the reason for the rapture of the church in the first place. God is making sure that we don’t have to experience His wrath...but He is going to let us stay on earth to be a testimony to the people around us.
What makes you think the point of the rapture of the Church is to prevent believers from experiencing hardship?

Mark 13:9
But be on your guard; for they will deliver you to the courts, and you will be flogged in the synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them.
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Why would Christians be flogged in synagogues during the Tribulation? That whole passage is for Jews.

The dead rising in Christ first is not the rapture but those who are still alive are..ok...it’s happening in the same moment..the dead rise first and we who are alive follow. The dead in Christ are included in the rapture but I maintain the rapture is done to save those living from God’s wrath. Jesus even says that if things weren’t cut short no flesh would be saved.
I'm not sure how you can be given seven examples of the same event -- what the Bible calls a catching away -- and still be hung up on the dead in Christ rising first during one of them. It's not a common feature of the other six raptures. Being caught up to God without seeing death is. Why are you so fixated on the dead in Christ?

You are saying the elders are singing the song? Aren’t the ones singing the song the ones that were raptured?
Yes. The elders are the Church. The Church will be raptured (and has been, at that point).

The number of elders doesn’t have to be symbolic that they are the raptured church.
I'm not saying the 24 elders are the Church because there are 24 of them. I'm saying the elders are the Church because of the song they sing, because they are in Heaven with the Lord at the beginning of the Tribulation, because they wear crowns, because they wear white, because they are out of every nation and tongue on earth, and because nothing else makes sense.

It’s a set number with a set amount of thrones. 24 elders, 24 thrones. I think your theory is just that..a theory and doesn’t correlate with what scripture says. Are you gonna say that there are more than 24 thrones then?
How can you be serious right now? You're the one who needs to stuff representation of 70 distinct nations into 24 people, all of whom are Jewish. The number of elders most likely is a reflection of the 24 courses of priestly service, an idea that is backed up by the song the elders are singing where they praise Jesus Christ for making them priests in his service.
And all this doesn’t explain..
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:1-4‬ ‭
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.​

The rapture doesn’t happen until after the antichrist is revealed in the first place. He isn’t revealed in the beginning of the tribulation but until 3.5 years into it when the anti stops the sacrifices.
If the antichrist isn't revealed until he stops the sacrifices, explain Daniel 9:27, which tells us he will confirm a covenant for seven years, but won't stop the sacrifices until halfway through it. Won't he be revealed, then, when he confirms the covenant?

The Thessalonians had heard that Jesus Christ had already returned, and that the day of the Lord was at hand. The passage in 2 Thessalonians says we can be sure that Jesus Christ has not yet returned, because the apostasy hasn't happened, and the antichrist hasn't been revealed. Don't confuse the coming of our Lord Jesus with our gathering together to him. The Second Advent and the Rapture of the Church are two different events, at two different times. Jesus Christ doesn't return at the Rapture, and we aren't raptured at his return. 2 Thessalonians is one of the most difficult chapters in the Bible to divide correctly, but you can be sure it doesn't say that the Church won't be raptured until after the antichrist is revealed.

When John first sees the 24 elders he isn’t saying wow..look at that multitude of 24 elders..but later when the rapture does happening he is asking the elder who all those people are..because they weren’t there before...which I do believe also proves the 24 elders aren’t the raptured church.
Can you explain this with verses, please? When does John ask the elder who all these people are?
 






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Sure but what did you mean by the bodies that were deceased in the Lord?
Those in Christ that have died will be buried, There Spirit will be with the Lord (unclothed),and the flesh will return to the earth from which it came. But when the Body of Christ is complete (The fullness of the Gentiles into the Church body), The Rapture will occur and those Spirits will be clothed upon first (2 Cor. 5:1-10)together along with those still alive in Christ. We will meet Him in the air.. Remember we are the first fruits of the resurrection who first trusted in Christ, Christ being the first fruit, but every body in their own order (1 Cor. 15:22-23). That will be the first resurrection. I'm not exactly sure when the OT saints are resurrected, because they are not in the Church, but they are the friends of Christ, John the Baptist being the last OT saint... he was the friend of the Bridegroom (John 3:29-30) as was Abraham (James 2:23). And the friend are invited to the wedding feat of the Bride of Christ....The Church). PTL
 






Lisa

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Those in Christ that have died will be buried, There Spirit will be with the Lord (unclothed),and the flesh will return to the earth from which it came. But when the Body of Christ is complete (The fullness of the Gentiles into the Church body), The Rapture will occur and those Spirits will be clothed upon first (2 Cor. 5:1-10)together along with those still alive in Christ. We will meet Him in the air.. Remember we are the first fruits of the resurrection who first trusted in Christ, Christ being the first fruit, but every body in their own order (1 Cor. 15:22-23). That will be the first resurrection. I'm not exactly sure when the OT saints are resurrected, because they are not in the Church, but they are the friends of Christ, John the Baptist being the last OT saint... he was the friend of the Bridegroom (John 3:29-30) as was Abraham (James 2:23). And the friend are invited to the wedding feat of the Bride of Christ....The Church). PTL
I thought that was what you meant..I wanted to make sure before I commented. I’m sorry, but that just doesn’t make sense. Where in the Bible does it say that the a persons spirit goes to be with the Lord? When I read that people die..they are asleep in the ground...
Daniel‬ ‭12:2‬ ‭
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
I know people think that’s just being polite about being dead...but I think there is something to it..we don’t really know what happens when we die. ‭‭Are we asleep in the ground? Why would our bodies be there and we aren’t with them. We aren’t our bodies but we are linked to our bodies..what if it is true and we are asleep in the ground waiting for the day God comes for us...whether that be the rapture or the judgement.

And I think that, because what possible reason would we need our earthly bodies to come up to us in the sky where our earthly bodies are changed and we meet that body? Why? Doesn’t it make sense that we who our dead..sleeping in the dust of the ground...will wake up...find ourselves floating ever higher and when we get to the sky...our bodies with us in them are changed?

I also think..why would the sea and hades give up their dead to God in the judgement..if no one was asleep in their bodies..why do we even go before God in our bodies then? What is the point of being reunited with the bodies..I think we are intwined with our bodies in such a way that we can’t be without them..so when they die..God puts us to sleep and we await what’s to come. That makes more sense..then our souls go to heaven and wait to be reunited with our bodies..why?
 






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I thought that was what you meant..I wanted to make sure before I commented. I’m sorry, but that just doesn’t make sense. Where in the Bible does it say that the a persons spirit goes to be with the Lord? When I read that people die..they are asleep in the ground...
Daniel‬ ‭12:2‬ ‭
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
I know people think that’s just being polite about being dead...but I think there is something to it..we don’t really know what happens when we die. ‭‭Are we asleep in the ground? Why would our bodies be there and we aren’t with them. We aren’t our bodies but we are linked to our bodies..what if it is true and we are asleep in the ground waiting for the day God comes for us...whether that be the rapture or the judgement.

And I think that, because what possible reason would we need our earthly bodies to come up to us in the sky where our earthly bodies are changed and we meet that body? Why? Doesn’t it make sense that we who our dead..sleeping in the dust of the ground...will wake up...find ourselves floating ever higher and when we get to the sky...our bodies with us in them are changed?

I also think..why would the sea and hades give up their dead to God in the judgement..if no one was asleep in their bodies..why do we even go before God in our bodies then? What is the point of being reunited with the bodies..I think we are intwined with our bodies in such a way that we can’t be without them..so when they die..God puts us to sleep and we await what’s to come. That makes more sense..then our souls go to heaven and wait to be reunited with our bodies..why?
You can believe what you want Lisa, but study 2 Corinthians Chapter 5 and the revelation of Lazarus and the rich man by Jesus.
 






Lisa

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You can believe what you want Lisa, but study 2 Corinthians Chapter 5 and the revelation of Lazarus and the rich man by Jesus.
What would the revelations of Lazarus tell me? That Lazarus’ soul was with the Lord? Didn't Jesus tell Lazarus to come forth? He didn’t have to call his soul from heaven did He?

Can’t you just show me the verses you think say our souls are in heaven when we die? Otherwise..you can believe what you want too?
 






Lisa

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You haven't built a case for the 24 elders being the apostles and the tribes of Israel. Your entire argument is that 12 and 12 make 24. You don't account for why Israel would be included among the elders when Israel has not yet been redeemed. You don't explain how the 24 could represent every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation in history when, by your theory, every single elder is Jewish. How do 24 Jewish guys represent all the different peoples of the earth?
Does 12 and 12 make 24? Its as good as your theory...

Israel hasn’t been redeemed..but does that include the sons of Jacob? The nation of Israel is about the sons of Jacob isn’t it? And isn’t Abraham the father of all nations? Aren’t they then his heirs?
Genesis‬ ‭17:5‬ ‭
No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.​

Then the 12 disciples who began as Jews and ended up Christians..following after the teachings of Jesus..how wouldn’t they be a part of it?

You know we are grafted into an olive tree..right? We aren’t separate from that faith of Abraham...and the covenant he has with God. Let’s not be conceited about this..they are only broken off for a little while.
Romans‬ ‭11:19-21‬ ‭
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.​
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What makes you think the point of the rapture of the Church is to prevent believers from experiencing hardship?
I didn’t say that the rapture of the church was to prevent us from experiencing hardship...I think we do experience the hardship of the tribulation but we aren’t going to experience the wrath of God..sort of like with Noah..he didn’t have to be in the flood..God’s wrath/judgement, but was saved from it.

I think the pre trib position is that God loves them so much that he will save them from the trib and they won’t have to experience any of it...which I isn’t supported in scripture like they think it is.

Why would Christians be flogged in synagogues during the Tribulation? That whole passage is for Jews.
Ya, that is a little shaky isn’t it...I will withdraw that verse for now.

I'm not sure how you can be given seven examples of the same event -- what the Bible calls a catching away -- and still be hung up on the dead in Christ rising first during one of them. It's not a common feature of the other six raptures. Being caught up to God without seeing death is. Why are you so fixated on the dead in Christ?
Because the dead in Christ means that there aren’t other raptures. If there were other raptures..than why would their still be the dead? And the verse says...
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:15‬ ‭
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

I don’t see how there can be other raptures when we who are alive will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Yes. The elders are the Church. The Church will be raptured (and has been, at that point).
There is no instance of the elders singing that..but those that were raptured.

I'm not saying the 24 elders are the Church because there are 24 of them. I'm saying the elders are the Church because of the song they sing, because they are in Heaven with the Lord at the beginning of the Tribulation, because they wear crowns, because they wear white, because they are out of every nation and tongue on earth, and because nothing else makes sense.
I think that’s reaching and tbh trying to fit it into a pre trib rapture...

How can you be serious right now?
I would ask you the same thing...

If the antichrist isn't revealed until he stops the sacrifices, explain Daniel 9:27, which tells us he will confirm a covenant for seven years, but won't stop the sacrifices until halfway through it. Won't he be revealed, then, when he confirms the covenant?

The Thessalonians had heard that Jesus Christ had already returned, and that the day of the Lord was at hand. The passage in 2 Thessalonians says we can be sure that Jesus Christ has not yet returned, because the apostasy hasn't happened, and the antichrist hasn't been revealed. Don't confuse the coming of our Lord Jesus with our gathering together to him. The Second Advent and the Rapture of the Church are two different events, at two different times. Jesus Christ doesn't return at the Rapture, and we aren't raptured at his return. 2 Thessalonians is one of the most difficult chapters in the Bible to divide correctly, but you can be sure it doesn't say that the Church won't be raptured until after the antichrist is revealed.
He’s the one that confirms the covenant..doesn’t mean that he’s made the covenant. I don’t think he’s the maker of the covenant which is why he isn’t revealed until the abomination of desolation.

Jesus only returns once..ya? And aren’t the raptured ones meeting Him in the clouds? If that‘s the case..this is a one time deal.

Can you explain this with verses, please? When does John ask the elder who all these people are?
When John first gets to heaven he looks around and sees only 24 people...
Revelation‬ ‭4:1-4‬ ‭
After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne. And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, like an emerald in appearance. Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads.​
‭‭
Later on...before the 7th seal and God’s wrath..
Revelation‬ ‭7:9, 13-14‬ ‭
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.​
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What would the revelations of Lazarus tell me? That Lazarus’ soul was with the Lord? Didn't Jesus tell Lazarus to come forth? He didn’t have to call his soul from heaven did He?

Can’t you just show me the verses you think say our souls are in heaven when we die? Otherwise..you can believe what you want too?
Study the Scriptures.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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Rev 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The 12 sons of Jacob and the 12 disciples were ALL Jews, certainly not from every tongue, tribe and nation.

Or they were joking or lying in this passage.
 






Thunderian

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Rev 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The 12 sons of Jacob and the 12 disciples were ALL Jews, certainly not from every tongue, tribe and nation.

Or they were joking or lying in this passage.
Lisa needs to address this.
 






Lisa

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Rev 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The 12 sons of Jacob and the 12 disciples were ALL Jews, certainly not from every tongue, tribe and nation.

Or they were joking or lying in this passage.
Perhaps this is the problem? My NASB doesn’t say they were singing the song for themselves but for us...

Revelation‬ ‭5:9-10‬ ‭
And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.

@Thunderian ‭‭
 






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Thunderian

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Perhaps this is the problem? My NASB doesn’t say they were singing the song for themselves but for us...

Revelation‬ ‭5:9-10‬ ‭
And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.

@Thunderian ‭‭
It’s definitely part of the problem. For some reason the NASB is translating the Greek word for us (hēmas) as them, and the word for we shall reign (basileuō) as they will reign.

There is no reason for anyone to translate those words in the way the NASB has in that passage. Greek is an exact language, and the words us and we mean exactly that.

Do you see why Red, myself, and others don’t tend to trust some of the other versions? It’s stuff like this.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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It’s definitely part of the problem. For some reason the NASB is translating the Greek word for us (hēmas) as them, and the word for we shall reign (basileuō) as they will reign.

There is no reason for anyone to translate those words in the way the NASB has in that passage. Greek is an exact language, and the words us and we mean exactly that.

Do you see why Red, myself, and others don’t tend to trust some of the other versions? It’s stuff like this.
Literally, out of 24 manuscripts, 23 use the word “we”, the 24th “they”.

The 24th is the Alexandrian manuscript, Alexandria being the epicentre of many of the gnostic ideas in the early church.

 






Thunderian

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Literally, out of 24 manuscripts, 23 use the word “we”, the 24th “they”.

The 24th is the Alexandrian manuscript, Alexandria being the epicentre of many of the gnostic ideas in the early church.

It’s almost as if the new versions of the Bible were deliberately translated in a way that would sow confusion, contradiction, and distrust of God’s word.
 






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I don't know why people think there will be a rapture exactly after the Tribulation, that doesn't even make sense. It's BEFORE the Tribulation. Some people say, "We have to stay here and deem ourselves worthy to the END, remember that verse endure to the end? Yeah, you're wrong!" No, there will be a rapture before the Tribulation otherwise why would Jesus tell us to look out for his coming? We are in the end times, we need to prepare ourselves before we meet Jesus in the air. Also, this is PROOF the rapture happens before the Tribulation.

The verse says we will meet Jesus in the air, NOT the ground. Y'all get confused with this, you remember the verse of his coming as KING where he touches the ground, there's a difference. During the rapture, we're the ones flying up to Jesus in the air to start the feast in Gods kingdom. While the Tribulation is occurring, we will be in Gods kingdom being updated on everything that's happened, example, when Babylon falls, "Oh Babylon, that great city has fallen! Has fallen!", "Rejoice over the fall on Babylon," God tells his people that were raptured in heaven, "And they shouted for joy"

The SECOND coming is a different event because Jesus will actually touch the ground with his feet. The first time he came unto earth, he was riding a donkey, not known as a king, this second coming is an event ABOUT HIM TAKING HIS PLACE AS KING, and there will only be 3 events happening during his second coming.

1. He will come and slay the wicked with his word, "His word is sharper than a two edge sword," and Jesus has the tongue of a sword his word explains, symbolically it means he will slay the wicked with his word. Some of Gods people have dreams with demons trying to take their faith away but as soon as they start saying Gods word or even Gods name alone, they lose and Gods people win. It's like that.

2. The Holy City will be set up.

3. satan will get cast into the abyss for the 1,000 years. SO THERE IS NO RAPTURE AT HIS SECOND COMING. NOBODY WHO SURVIVED THE TRIBULATION IS GOING TO GET CAUGHT UP, MAKE A 180 DEGREE ANGLE AND THEN COME BACK DOWN TO GO TO THE CITY, THAT MAKES ZERO SENSE, AND IT'S A WASTE OF TIME, WHEN JESUS COMES, THE EVENTS WILL HAPPEN, THERE WILL BE NO TIME TO WAIT FOR ANYTHING.

Now, people then ask me, "Okay so where does the 144,000 fall into this?" They're a completely different group of people, some people mainly Jehovahs Witnesses think only they will inherit the Holy City, that is wrong, they aren't the only ones because the verse of Johns vision tells us "And I, John, seen many people who no man can count. Sir, who are these? You know, these are they who have the seal of God and who have came out the Tribulation" these are the 144,000 Israelites and the other group of people are the ones who survived the Tribulation.

"So then, how do they go to the Holy City?" They get changed into heavenly bodies as those who were raptured experienced, and they will be transported by angels, or they can even run over there. God did say, "And they shall run and not faint," so they could run over from where they're from all the way to the Holy City, and be completely fine, still breathing, not tired, but rather focusing on their Lord Jesus Christ.

There! There is ONE rapture, and ONE second coming! The rapture is basically the wedding and feast as God would say, and the second coming is the body of Christ and Christ as one as they dwell in the Holy City and eventually the new earth! You cannot count us going to the new earth as the rapture either, because the rapture is the wedding, that was over. The second coming is us in one with Christ, that's over. Now all we have to do is judge those on Judgment Day with God. "Do ye not know we will judge angels?" Yes, we are also judging angels as well. We will all have authority from God to judge those who have lived at different timestamps during the 1,000 years.

Then, the wicked of course, and the goatheads (satanists, celebrities) will get cast into the lake of fire, and everyone else is inheriting the new earth, that's all there is to it.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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It’s almost as if the new versions of the Bible were deliberately translated in a way that would sow confusion, contradiction, and distrust of God’s word.
That comes from the modern textual critics maxim:-

"In general the more difficult reading is to be preferred" is Bruce Metzger's reservation. "There is truth in the maxim: lectio difficilior lectio potior ('the more difficult reading is the more probable reading')", write Kurt and Barbara Aland.

This is based on the assumption of a “lost” form of Christianity smoothed over by a more harmonised narrative, therefore any reading that makes less sense, even if represented in a tiny minority of manuscripts is to be given greater credence. That’s why there are so many footnotes in modern versions!
 






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