The Three Raptures / Three Harvests

Lisa

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Why wouldn’t there be? Is there some reason why you think God can’t catch people or persons up to himself more than one time?
Wouldn't that invalidate the dead in Christ rise first?

Heaven isn’t empty when John gets there. The 24 elders are seated around the throne.
Heaven is pretty sparse with only the 24 elders until a great multitude arrives mysteriously from the great tribulation.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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Wouldn't that invalidate the dead in Christ rise first?


Heaven is pretty sparse with only the 24 elders until a great multitude arrives mysteriously from the great tribulation.
Which leads back into @floss ‘a question - who the 24 elders are is significant...

 






Lisa

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Which leads back into @floss ‘a question - who the 24 elders are is significant...

He is proving to have that mocking tone I was talking about earlier..:confused:

That preacher is full of it if you ask me. He is reading more into the 24 elders than there should be. There are only 24 elders and the elder John talked with did know who the multitude was and told John who they were..that preacher said he didn’t know who they were. And I think if John saw more than 24 elders..a whole crowd of people up there he would have mentioned it but he didn’t see more than that until later. Until the tribulation got underway anyway.


The other question is..how do you get around the antichrist who is revealed in the temple declaring himself as God? The rapture doesn’t happen until after the antichrist is revealed and he won’t be revealed until he sits on the throne in the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. And he doesn’t do that until 3.5 years into the tribulation period. The 24 elders doesn’t solve that problem.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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He is proving to have that mocking tone I was talking about earlier..:confused:

That preacher is full of it if you ask me. He is reading more into the 24 elders than there should be. There are only 24 elders and the elder John talked with did know who the multitude was and told John who they were..that preacher said he didn’t know who they were. And I think if John saw more than 24 elders..a whole crowd of people up there he would have mentioned it but he didn’t see more than that until later. Until the tribulation got underway anyway.


The other question is..how do you get around the antichrist who is revealed in the temple declaring himself as God? The rapture doesn’t happen until after the antichrist is revealed and he won’t be revealed until he sits on the throne in the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. And he doesn’t do that until 3.5 years into the tribulation period. The 24 elders doesn’t solve that problem.
The point remains that the preference for the choice of the word “them” rather than “us” on which the pre-wrath / post-trib “angels” interpretation rests comes from one manuscript only (out of 24 that read “us”) - the Alexandrian one...

As this version has been the source of many dilutions and gnostic confusions in the text which you would not agree with, it a significant observation...


On the subject of a “mocking tone”, it is my experience that this issue can be divisive (as it touches deeply held views) and bring out a certain frustration in the best of us!
 






Lisa

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The point remains that the preference for the choice of the word “them” rather than “us” on which the pre-wrath / post-trib “angels” interpretation rests comes from one manuscript only (out of 24 that read “us”) - the Alexandrian one...

As this version has been the source of many dilutions and gnostic confusions in the text which you would not agree with, it a significant observation...

Honestly..I don’t think the elders are angels and I don’t have a clue as to their identity..all we know is they are elders and they sit around the throne of God and praise Him. We aren’t given any clues to their identity other than they worship God.

You still haven’t answered my point about the antichrist though.
 






Thunderian

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Off topic: who do believe are these 24 elders? Thanks bro
The short answer is the Church. @Red Sky at Morning posted a good explanation in that video.

The Church is the only body that fits all the verses that describe the 24.

The term elder is a term of the church. It’s not used elsewhere in scripture in the same sense. It’s interesting to note that John, who is himself a picture of the Church in Revelation 4, refers to himself in the first verses of 2 and 3 John as the elder.

The white robes they wear are symbolic of the Church. (Revelation 3:5,18; 19:8)

The crowns they wear are the crowns that the Church Age believer wins.(Revelation 2:10; 2 Timothy 4:8; James 1:12)

The song they sing in Revelation 5 can only make sense if the Church is singing it. And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

It has to be the Church, for those reasons.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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Honestly..I don’t think the elders are angels and I don’t have a clue as to their identity..all we know is they are elders and they sit around the throne of God and praise Him. We aren’t given any clues to their identity other than they worship God.
Then I won’t press the point with you and leave it for your consideration...

As for the Antichrist being revealed (and this may be getting to the crux), how do you interpret the following - who is doing the “restraining” here?

2 Thessalonians 2

He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
 






Thunderian

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Wouldn't that invalidate the dead in Christ rise first?
I don’t see how that could possibly be, no.


Heaven is pretty sparse with only the 24 elders until a great multitude arrives mysteriously from the great tribulation.
The 24 elders are the Church, if you’ll see my last post. They sing to Jesus Christ in Revelation 5, “thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;”
 






Red Sky at Morning

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I don’t see how that could possibly be, no.




The 24 elders are the Church, if you’ll see my last post. They sing to Jesus Christ in Revelation 5, “thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;”
I think that given that there are more than 24 nations, 24 tongues and definitely more than 24 tribes, this is a reasonable reading @Thunderian
 






Lisa

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Then I won’t press the point with you and leave it for your consideration...

As for the Antichrist being revealed (and this may be getting to the crux), how do you interpret the following - who is doing the “restraining” here?

2 Thessalonians 2

He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
Are you trying to say we are restraining the antichrist..and when we are taken out of the way he will be revealed? That doesn’t make any sense to the beginning that says that the rapture won’t happen until the anti is revealed in the temple....and we know that the Lord will win in the end..but the tribulation will keep going after the antichrist is revealed.

Daniel‬ ‭12:11-13‬ ‭
From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age.​
‭‭
Even Daniel isn’t in heaven..he is waiting to be raptured..the dead first. Also..see how the one who keeps waiting and attains the 1,335 day will be blessed...I really think you’re reaching on a pre-trib rapture.

And I kinda wonder if you are wanting your ears tickled here?
 






Lisa

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I don’t see how that could possibly be, no.
Why’s that?

The 24 elders are the Church, if you’ll see my last post. They sing to Jesus Christ in Revelation 5, “thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;”
Don’t you think the elders know the plan of God by this point? I mean, they are in heaven with HIm...
 






Red Sky at Morning

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Are you trying to say we are restraining the antichrist..and when we are taken out of the way he will be revealed? That doesn’t make any sense to the beginning that says that the rapture won’t happen until the anti is revealed in the temple....and we know that the Lord will win in the end..but the tribulation will keep going after the antichrist is revealed.

Daniel‬ ‭12:11-13‬ ‭
From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age.​
‭‭
Even Daniel isn’t in heaven..he is waiting to be raptured..the dead first. Also..see how the one who keeps waiting and attains the 1,335 day will be blessed...I really think you’re reaching on a pre-trib rapture.

And I kinda wonder if you are wanting your ears tickled here?
I don’t believe it is us par se, but the Holy Spirit who dwells in us. You will remember in the OT that the Holy Spirit would come upon God’s people but it was only post Pentecost (age of Grace) that the Holy Spirit has been within the Church. One He (who restrains) is taken away, all hell will break loose. You will notice that the “Gospel of the Kingdom”, the one preached to the Jews in the Gospels returns post Rev 3. This is because the age of Grace and the “Times of the Gentiles” have come to a close.
 






Thunderian

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Why’s that?
I think you need to explain why you think any other catching up would have an effect on the dead in Christ rising first as a feature of the Rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4:16. For instance, I’m not sure why Enoch’s catching up (to use one example) would have any bearing on the catching up of the Church.

Don’t you think the elders know the plan of God by this point? I mean, they are in heaven with HIm...
I’m afraid I don’t see the point you’re making here, either. Can you elaborate?
 






Lisa

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I think you need to explain why you think any other catching up would have an effect on the dead in Christ rising first as a feature of the Rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4:16. For instance, I’m not sure why Enoch’s catching up (to use one example) would have any bearing on the catching up of the Church.
Was Enoch caught up though? I don’t see that as a rapture..and it isn’t the rapture mentioned where a multitude of people...dead and alive will be caught up. I think that’s where you guys are getting confused.

Because there is only one time that the dead are said to be caught up in the clouds..if there are multiple raptures..then that cant be true can it?

I’m afraid I don’t see the point you’re making here, either. Can you elaborate?
Sorry..maybe I was still thinking about what I was saying to Red...but I don’t see how the 24 elders are an endless amount of people when we are told there are only 24 of them. I think people are reading to much into that. I kinda thought the elders were the 12 of Israel and the 12 disciples...I don’t have any reason for it except that the number fits and the disciples are on the foundation stone of the New Jerusalem. I feel like it also is good in that it blends the old with the new just like Paul talks about in Romans 11. However this is my only personal theory atm.
 






Thunderian

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Was Enoch caught up though? I don’t see that as a rapture..and it isn’t the rapture mentioned where a multitude of people...dead and alive will be caught up. I think that’s where you guys are getting confused.

Because there is only one time that the dead are said to be caught up in the clouds..if there are multiple raptures..then that cant be true can it?
It's kind of precious how you think we're the confused ones here. :)

Something that often strikes me about your style of Bible discussion is how dependent on your own feelings your interpretations of scripture are. You tend to use expressions like, "I just don't think," and "it doesn't make any sense to me," when you are arguing your view of this doctrine or another. I don't believe the Bible is a book you can read subjectively. We need to say, "I believe this because the Bible says so."

For example. I believe that Enoch was raptured -- and by that I mean I believe that the Lord chose not to let Enoch face death, but instead translated him instantly from his human state into a spiritual state, and from earth to Heaven -- because the Bible says so.

There are just eleven verses in the Bible that mention Enoch. But they say he was raptured.

And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

God took Enoch could mean that God waited until the end of his long years, and then let Enoch die, but that's not what the Bible says.

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

The Bible says that Enoch didn't see death, but that he was translated by God. Rapture is an act of God that allows a believer to bypass death.

Elijah was also raptured.

2Ki 2:11
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Like Enoch, he didn't die, but was taken into Heaven.

I think you're stuck on some of the attendant activity surrounding the rapture of the Church, and you can't see what the rapture actually is.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

That's not the Rapture. Those are the immediate precursors to the rapture of the Church. The word that is used to describe what we call the Rapture is harpazō, which means to seize, carry off by force, to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away. Nothing in there about the dead rising first, or the trump of God. Those things are part of the Rapture of the Church, but not a part of all raptures that have taken place, or will take place.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That's the Rapture. Just like when Enoch, Elijah and Jesus Christ were translated by God, from the earth, to his side in Heaven, without facing death, so will the Church be, and so shall we ever be with the Lord, praise God!

Sorry..maybe I was still thinking about what I was saying to Red...but I don’t see how the 24 elders are an endless amount of people when we are told there are only 24 of them. I think people are reading to much into that. I kinda thought the elders were the 12 of Israel and the 12 disciples...I don’t have any reason for it except that the number fits and the disciples are on the foundation stone of the New Jerusalem. I feel like it also is good in that it blends the old with the new just like Paul talks about in Romans 11. However this is my only personal theory atm.
This is exactly what I was talking about. I think, I kinda thought, and "I don't have any reason for it" are the last things anyone should be saying when they're explaining something in the Bible. Those verses are in there for a reason. Use them.

I gave reasons, based on scripture, why I believe the 24 elders are the Church. In context, the number of elders has to be symbolic. The song they sing to Jesus Christ in Heaven says that they are redeemed by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. As Red pointed out, that's more than 24 people! The so-called Table of Nations in Genesis 10 lists 70 nations.

How do you squeeze 70 different peoples into 24 representatives? You don't. You have a symbolic number of elders that represent the Church. The 24 elders also sing that Jesus Christ has made them kings and priests, and if we look in 1 Chronicles 24 we see that the Aaronic priesthood is divided into 24 courses of service. It may be that each of the elders represents one course of service in God's Temple. That number fits better than adding the number of apostles to number of tribes of Israel.

Israel is disqualified anyway. Their redemption and restoration to God have not yet occurred. The 24 elders are the Church.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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It's kind of precious how you think we're the confused ones here. :)

Something that often strikes me about your style of Bible discussion is how dependent on your own feelings your interpretations of scripture are. You tend to use expressions like, "I just don't think," and "it doesn't make any sense to me," when you are arguing your view of this doctrine or another. I don't believe the Bible is a book you can read subjectively. We need to say, "I believe this because the Bible says so."

For example. I believe that Enoch was raptured -- and by that I mean I believe that the Lord chose not to let Enoch face death, but instead translated him instantly from his human state into a spiritual state, and from earth to Heaven -- because the Bible says so.

There are just eleven verses in the Bible that mention Enoch. But they say he was raptured.

And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

God took Enoch could mean that God waited until the end of his long years, and then let Enoch die, but that's not what the Bible says.

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

The Bible says that Enoch didn't see death, but that he was translated by God. Rapture is an act of God that allows a believer to bypass death.

Elijah was also raptured.

2Ki 2:11
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Like Enoch, he didn't die, but was taken into Heaven.

I think you're stuck on some of the attendant activity surrounding the rapture of the Church, and you can't see what the rapture actually is.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

That's not the Rapture. Those are the immediate precursors to the rapture of the Church. The word that is used to describe what we call the Rapture is harpazō, which means to seize, carry off by force, to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away. Nothing in there about the dead rising first, or the trump of God. Those things are part of the Rapture of the Church, but not a part of all raptures that have taken place, or will take place.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That's the Rapture. Just like when Enoch, Elijah and Jesus Christ were translated by God, from the earth, to his side in Heaven, without facing death, so will the Church be, and so shall we ever be with the Lord, praise God!



This is exactly what I was talking about. I think, I kinda thought, and "I don't have any reason for it" are the last things anyone should be saying when they're explaining something in the Bible. Those verses are in there for a reason. Use them.

I gave reasons, based on scripture, why I believe the 24 elders are the Church. In context, the number of elders has to be symbolic. The song they sing to Jesus Christ in Heaven says that they are redeemed by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. As Red pointed out, that's more than 24 people! The so-called Table of Nations in Genesis 10 lists 70 nations.

How do you squeeze 70 different peoples into 24 representatives? You don't. You have a symbolic number of elders that represent the Church. The 24 elders also sing that Jesus Christ has made them kings and priests, and if we look in 1 Chronicles 24 we see that the Aaronic priesthood is divided into 24 courses of service. It may be that each of the elders represents one course of service in God's Temple. That number fits better than adding the number of apostles to number of tribes of Israel.

Israel is disqualified anyway. Their redemption and restoration to God have not yet occurred. The 24 elders are the Church.
I have added the name of the thread to the “three harvests” because it has less potential for confusion - I definitely see three major gatherings in scripture though.
 






Lisa

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Something that often strikes me about your style of Bible discussion is how dependent on your own feelings your interpretations of scripture are. You tend to use expressions like, "I just don't think," and "it doesn't make any sense to me," when you are arguing your view of this doctrine or another. I don't believe the Bible is a book you can read subjectively. We need to say, "I believe this because the Bible says so."
That’s my way of being polite and trying to have a conversation with people, trying to say you might be able to convince me I’m wrong. Which you haven’t been able to do. I’ve also given scripture references for what I believe.

The Bible says that Enoch didn't see death, but that he was translated by God. Rapture is an act of God that allows a believer to bypass death.
I don’t believe that he was raptured. God just took Enoch because they were close, He wasn’t preventing him for experiencing a hardship, which is the reason for the rapture of the church in the first place. God is making sure that we don’t have to experience His wrath...but He is going to let us stay on earth to be a testimony to the people around us.

Mark 13:9
But be on your guard; for they will deliver you to the courts, and you will be flogged in the synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them.​
‭‭
I think you're stuck on some of the attendant activity surrounding the rapture of the Church, and you can't see what the rapture actually is.

1Th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
That's not the Rapture. Those are the immediate precursors to the rapture of the Church. The word that is used to describe what we call the Rapture is harpazō, which means to seize, carry off by force, to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly, to snatch out or away. Nothing in there about the dead rising first, or the trump of God. Those things are part of the Rapture of the Church, but not a part of all raptures that have taken place, or will take place.

1Th 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
That's the Rapture. Just like when Enoch, Elijah and Jesus Christ were translated by God, from the earth, to his side in Heaven, without facing death, so will the Church be, and so shall we ever be with the Lord, praise God!
The dead rising in Christ first is not the rapture but those who are still alive are..ok...it’s happening in the same moment..the dead rise first and we who are alive follow. The dead in Christ are included in the rapture but I maintain the rapture is done to save those living from God’s wrath. Jesus even says that if things weren’t cut short no flesh would be saved.

I gave reasons, based on scripture, why I believe the 24 elders are the Church. In context, the number of elders has to be symbolic. The song they sing to Jesus Christ in Heaven says that they are redeemed by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. As Red pointed out, that's more than 24 people! The so-called Table of Nations in Genesis 10 lists 70 nations.

How do you squeeze 70 different peoples into 24 representatives? You don't. You have a symbolic number of elders that represent the Church. The 24 elders also sing that Jesus Christ has made them kings and priests, and if we look in 1 Chronicles 24 we see that the Aaronic priesthood is divided into 24 courses of service. It may be that each of the elders represents one course of service in God's Temple. That number fits better than adding the number of apostles to number of tribes of Israel.

Israel is disqualified anyway. Their redemption and restoration to God have not yet occurred. The 24 elders are the Church.
You are saying the elders are singing the song? Aren’t the ones singing the song the ones that were raptured?

The number of elders doesn’t have to be symbolic that they are the raptured church. It’s a set number with a set amount of thrones. 24 elders, 24 thrones. I think your theory is just that..a theory and doesn’t correlate with what scripture says. Are you gonna say that there are more than 24 thrones then?

Revelation‬ ‭4:4‬ ‭
Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads.​
‭‭

And all this doesn’t explain..
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:1-4‬ ‭
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.​

The rapture doesn’t happen until after the antichrist is revealed in the first place. He isn’t revealed in the beginning of the tribulation but until 3.5 years into it when the anti stops the sacrifices.
When John first sees the 24 elders he isn’t saying wow..look at that multitude of 24 elders..but later when the rapture does happening he is asking the elder who all those people are..because they weren’t there before...which I do believe also proves the 24 elders aren’t the raptured church.
 






Lisa

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I have added the name of the thread to the “three harvests” because it has less potential for confusion - I definitely see three major gatherings in scripture though.
What three harvests and what do those have to do with the rapture?

Could you explain to me how there could be three raptures when scripture clearly says the rapture won’t happen until after the anti Is revealed. You know that won’t be until 3.5 years into the tribulation...
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:1-4‬ ‭
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.​
 






Red Sky at Morning

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What three harvests and what do those have to do with the rapture?

Could you explain to me how there could be three raptures when scripture clearly says the rapture won’t happen until after the anti Is revealed. You know that won’t be until 3.5 years into the tribulation...
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:1-4‬ ‭
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.​
You do know that the word “apostasia” (apostasy) means both a “falling away” as well as a physical departure? In that later sense I am “apostasia” from work just now and will answer more fully later ;-)
 






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It’s not just the trib Saints rapturing either...the dead rise first and we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them...right?
The Epistles are only about the Church, those who are alive that are raptured are those Church members that have not passed yet, that will be caught up with those bodies that were deceased in the Lord. During the rapture of the Church, our bodies will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.
 






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