The Sun Revolves Around the Earth

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#3
I found "The Principle" Movie very interesting. It places the earth somewhere towards the centre of the universe. This is absolutely unthinkable to the Copernican mind, but from the observations, some very interesting science falls out leading to the concept of an "ancient" universe and a young Earth, depending on where you put the clock.


Good find, @Etagloc
 





Etagloc

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#4
I found "The Principle" Movie very interesting. It places the earth somewhere towards the centre of the universe. This is absolutely unthinkable to the Copernican mind, but from the observations, some very interesting science falls out leading to the concept of an "ancient" universe and a young Earth, depending on where you put the clock.


Good find, @Etagloc
Thanks- wow, I didn't know you beat me to this one, Red Sky. I just recently found out about this and I'm still pretty excited about it! It's fascinating stuff. My mind was blown when I was first exposed to it.
 





Etagloc

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#5
And they seem to be doubling their efforts to undermine or even DESTROY religion now more than ever
True words!

I think what is so interesting here is....

a lot of people might think this kind of thing started with Darwin... and so those of us who believe in religion might think we need to start with Darwin as far as refuting this sort of thing.... so I think it is very interesting to see how further back it goes all the way to Copernicus
 





Etagloc

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#6
btw of course my reason for making this thread has to do with Islam... I first was exposed to this line of thinking from a fatwa by Sheikh Uthaymeen

Uthaymeen says the following (translation):

Question: Does the Sun revolve around the earth?

It is apparent from the Islamic evidences that they confirm that it is the sun which revolves around the earth, and by its revolving the alternation of night and day takes place on the surface of the earth. It is not for us to exceed the apparent meaning of these evidences without some evidence stronger than that, which permits us to explain them differently from their apparent meaning. (Meaning we cant interpret metaphorically)
Among the proofs that the sun revolves around the earth in a manner which causes the alternation of the night and day are the following:

Allah, the Most High says, that when Ibrahim, peace be upon him, disputed with the one who argued with him concerning his Lord:
Verily, Allah bring the sun from the east; then bring it you from the west. Al-Baqarah 2:259

He also tells us that Ibrahim, peace be upon him said:
When he saw the sun rising up, he said: This is my lord. This is greater. But when it set, he said: O my people! I am indeed free from all that you join as partner (in worship with Allah). Al-Anam 6:78

Allah the most High says:
And you might have seen the sun, when it rose, declining to the right from their Cave, and when it set, turning away from them to the left. Al-Kahf 18:17

Allah, the Most High says:
And He it is Who has created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each in an orbit floating. Al-Anbiya 21:33

And Allah, the Most High says:
He brings the nigh as a cover over the day, seeking it rapidly. Al-Araf 7:54

Allah the Most high says:
he has created the heavens and the earth with truth. He makes the night to go in the day and makes the day to go in the night. And he has subjected the sun and the moon. Each running (on a fixed course) for an appointed term. Verily, He is the All-Mighty, the OftForgiving. Az-Zumar 39:5

And His Words: "He makes the night to go in the day.

That is it turns around it, as a turban is wrapped around, which proves the revolving of the night and the day around the eary. If it were the earth which revolved around them, He would have said: He cause the earth to revolve around the night and day. And in His Words:

the sun and the moon, each running (on a fixed course).

It is clear from what precedes is that it is a proof that the sun and the moon move in a perceptible orbit, because subjecting something which moves to its movement is more apparent than subjecting something stationary which does not move.

Allah, the Most High says:
By the sun and its brightness. By the moon as it follows it (the sun). Ash-Shams 91:1-2

And the meaning of follows it.

Is that it comes after it and this is a proof of their moving and revolving around the earth, for if it were the earth which revolved around them, the moon would not be following the sun; rather it would sometimes be following it and sometimes it would be followed by it because the sun is higher than it. And deduction from this Verse requires study and reflection.

Allah the most High says: And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing. And the moon, We have measured for it mansions (to traverse) till it returns like the old drid curved date statlk. It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all float, each in an orbit. Ya-Seen 36:38-40
So, attributing the movement to the sun and describing it as a Decree from the Almighty, Most Wise proves that it is a real movement with a far-reaching Decree, since the consequence of it is the alternation of the night and day and the seasons.



The Measures of the moons mansion (i.e. stations) is a proof that it traverses them, for if it was the earth which revolves, the measuring of the mansions would be for the earths movement around the moon and not for the moons movement around it.



And negating the suns ability to overtake the moon, and the nights ability to outstrip the day are evidence of the rushing movement on the part of the sun and the moon, and the night and the day.

The Prophet (Sallah Allahu Alyhe wa Sallam) said to Abu Tharr, May Allah be please with him, when the sun had just set:
Do you know where it goes?

He said, Allah and His Messenger know best. He said:

Verily, it goes (i.e. travels) and it prostrates beneath the Throne and seeks permission to rise, and permission is granted to it. Then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered: Return from whence you came, and so it will rise in the west. [Reported in Al-Bukhari in the Book of the Beginning of Creation, in the Chapter: Description of the Sun and Moon (3199) and by Muslim in the Book of Faith, in the Chapter: Explanation of the Time When Faith Will not be Accepted (150).]

So and it is extremely clear from his words: Return from whence you came that it revolves around the earth and through its revolving the sunrise and sunset occur.

It is clear from the many Ahadith which attribute rising, setting, and declining from its zenith to the sun, that it is the sun which does so and not the earth.


There are most probably other proofs that are not present with me at the moment, but what I have mentioned is a summary of the subject, and it is sufficient for my purpose. And Allah is the granter of success.




I believe Fawzan is with him on this also....
I think Al-baani took a differing approach....

I only cite Al-baani to show that a respectable scholar did take what the view contrary to what is being expressed in this thread....

so I definitely am not meaning any hostility against any Muslims who disagree on the issue

however, I respect Sheikh Uthaymeen and Sheikh Fawzan.... and I am with them on the issue and I believe Islam teaches the sun revolves around the earth.... however, Al-baani was a wonderful scholar and he took a differing position on the issue if I'm not mistaken- so I'm not saying a Muslim can't hold a differing position.... however, I feel that we must, can and should be confident and I am proud that science has shown Islam is right on this issue.... may Allah bless Sheikh Uthaymeen!

as far as I know, Sheikh Uthaymeen might not even have known about the scientific evidence..... however- simply by having imaan and following Islam, he was led to the truth and science turned out to back him up!

and apparently, this issue has significance for Christians as well and insha'Allah this is something we can agree on
 





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#11
It’s hilarious that people will pretend to speak of the truth and then spout of nonsense like this. Religion undermines itself by denying reality. The OP has been discredited a long time ago, but this thread shows others who should not be taken seriously.
It is also worth noting that despite the noise made by many atheistic scientists, standard "Big Bang" cosmology is by no means the only plausible scientific explanation of origins.
 





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#13
It is also worth noting that despite the noise made by many atheistic scientists, standard "Big Bang" cosmology is by no means the only plausible scientific explanation of origins.

I’m not getting into that subject, and it’s not comparable to still believing the Sun revolves around the Earth. This isn’t an issue up for debate. If you really have a science background then you know this. So you’re either being dishonest or delusional if you believe in geocentrism.
 





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#14
I’m not getting into that subject, and it’s not comparable to still believing the Sun revolves around the Earth. This isn’t an issue up for debate. If you really have a science background then you know this. So you’re either being dishonest or delusional if you believe in geocentrism.
I don't believe in Geocentrism with respect to the Sun, I did Science degrees. If you watch the two videos at the top, they don't either.

Where the claim emerges is from the observations of the secular scientists who discuss the "axis of evil" in the CMB and the idea that Copernicus, (whose ideas led to the established view that the earth existed in no special place in the universe) may now be having that perspective challenged by some inexplicable scientific observations.

I do not believe the sun pivots round the earth in the way your response suggests, just to be clear ;-)
 





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#15
I don't believe in Geocentrism with respect to the Sun, I did Science degrees. If you watch the two videos at the top, they don't either.

Where the claim emerges is from the observations of the secular scientists who discuss the "axis of evil" in the CMB and the idea that Copernicus, (whose ideas led to the established view that the earth existed in no special place in the universe) may now be having that perspective challenged by some inexplicable scientific observations.

I do not believe the sun pivots round the earth in the way your response suggests, just to be clear ;-)

I’ve heard all the creationist arguments for the “starlight” problem and none of them hold up to scrutiny. I’m assuming your video addresses that but I’ll watch it tonight after work.

As far as the center of the universe it’s a meaningless question because there is no center or the center is everywhere.
 





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#16
I’ve heard all the creationist arguments for the “starlight” problem and none of them hold up to scrutiny. I’m assuming your video addresses that but I’ll watch it tonight after work.

As far as the center of the universe it’s a meaningless question because there is no center or the center is everywhere.
Both your observations are interesting. In the defence of the videos that have been posted up, they are not relying on "faith" as a special ingredient, they simply take the data and allow for the possibility that God could have done things the way the Bible indicates.

I particularly liked the starlight one as I find the kind of physics involved in cosmology fascinating.
 





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#17
Both your observations are interesting. In the defence of the videos that have been posted up, they are not relying on "faith" as a special ingredient, they simply take the data and allow for the possibility that God could have done things the way the Bible indicates.

I particularly liked the starlight one as I find the kind of physics involved in cosmology fascinating.

Humphreys proposed the ridiculous “white hole cosmology” there is zero observational evidence for his claims no matter how hard he may try to twist it to appear so.

http://web.archive.org/web/20121107195343/http://trueorigin.org/rh_connpage1.pdf
 





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#19
Humphreys proposed the ridiculous “white hole cosmology” there is zero observational evidence for his claims no matter how hard he may try to twist it to appear so.

http://web.archive.org/web/20121107195343/http://trueorigin.org/rh_connpage1.pdf
The issue with the colmology of origins is that you cannot replicate the conditions of beginnings with any real certainty. It is a science of "coulds".

I didn't post up the information I personally find persuasive to argue over them, simply to share information that has blessed me. If you prefer to put your confidence in a different cosmology @Colonel Valerio that's your call.
 





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#20
If i were you i would probably respond with :
Logical fallacy ridicule.
Logical fallacy appeal to authority.
Nope, appeal to science. Nobody has to prove that 2+2=4 here, same stuff with flat Earth and the nonsense of this thread.