The Story of the Birth of Krishna

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#21
4th century BC probably.
That could be considered the earliest dating, right? They might as well have been written in 2nd century CE?


The Bhagavad Gita is not a closed text, matter of fact it is just an extracted sample of one crucial and memorable part of the sixth book (Bhishma Parva) from the Mahabharata, which is the longest historical epic in the world.

This page has some decent answers: https://www.quora.com/When-was-the-Mahabharata-written

And yes Krishna is a literal incarnation of God in the Mahabharata and he does a lot of amazing things and is a very complex spiritual leader.
Can you name the books (apart from Bhishma and Ashmavedhika) where this is written about Krishna?
 





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#23
In the most commonly accepted version, Vishnu has 10 incarnations. What makes Krishna so special?

Edit: Also, it should go without saying that I'm looking for pre-Christian texts about Krishna being God incarnate. The specific ones you've shared are all AD.
 





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#24
Excuse me for interjecting please, just to add one little, but I think important, nuance.

if Jesus was here today and even cared to talk to me, i would obv tell him his religion is a disappointment, it didnt change anything.
Organised Christianity is not His religion:

The Way home or face The Fire 9:2 Satan, therefore, decided to use his most successful weapon, i.e. religions, and had to find a way to turn the teachings into yet another organized-religion. The devil succeeded, and called it Christianity, even after all that Jesus went through, to show that organized-religions are wrong, and that they belong to the devil, NOT God or Christ.

There are connection between hinduism, islam and christianity if people care to learn.
Agreed.
 





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#25
Just out of curiosity, how do you manage to have an intimate relationship with a woman when you believe that they are on a lower spiritual level than men? Doesn't intimacy require some kind of mutual respect? Or are you monks?
This also explains it.

The Way home or face The Fire
4:22 Adam started a tradition, that has survived for thousands of years, which is:- loving woman first, and God (good) second, thereby breaking the first and most important COMMANDment, upon which all the others hang.
4:23 This has caused, and still is causing, most of the trouble in the world, and God will allow women to continue punishing men, with heart-ache, etc., until man learns to put God (pure love) first, and woman (sex) second, or he runs out of time: whichever comes first.
 





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#26
This also explains it.

The Way home or face The Fire
4:22 Adam started a tradition, that has survived for thousands of years, which is:- loving woman first, and God (good) second, thereby breaking the first and most important COMMANDment, upon which all the others hang.
4:23 This has caused, and still is causing, most of the trouble in the world, and God will allow women to continue punishing men, with heart-ache, etc., until man learns to put God (pure love) first, and woman (sex) second, or he runs out of time: whichever comes first.
So you are monastics practicing chastity?
 





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#27
So you are monastics practicing chastity?
No; that sounds too much like organised religion. We follow this; each his own.

Matthew
19:11 But he said unto them, All [men] cannot receive this saying, save [they] to whom it is given.
19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from [their] mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for The Kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive [it], let him receive [it].
 





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#28
No; that sounds too much like organised religion. We follow this; each his own.

Matthew
19:11 But he said unto them, All [men] cannot receive this saying, save [they] to whom it is given.
19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from [their] mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for The Kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive [it], let him receive [it].
Ok, I'm not sure that I've been totally clear... There is this old saying which I basically agree with, at least which makes sense on a certain level. A Catholic thing in fact. It goes: "Marriage is for those who do not possess the gift of continence". You understand?
 





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#29
Ok, I'm not sure that I've been totally clear... There is this old saying which I basically agree with, at least which makes sense on a certain level. A Catholic thing in fact. It goes: "Marriage is for those who do not possess the gift of continence". You understand?
I understand what you're striving to convey, although the Catholic saying doesn't say anything about "for the Kingdom of heaven's sake", like Matt. 19:12 above does.
 





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#30
I understand what you're striving to convey, although the Catholic saying doesn't say anything about "for the Kingdom of heaven's sake", like Matt. 19:12 above does.
Ok, I'm not sure that I've been totally clear... There is this old saying which I basically agree with, at least which makes sense on a certain level. A Catholic thing in fact. It goes: "Marriage is for those who do not possess the gift of continence". You understand?
Actually I may have misunderstood you?

Might this be more appropriate to the question?

The Way home or face The Fire 6:31 How can anyone expect to find love, when they are looking in all the wrong places? Look up, not down. How can you expect to see what is above you, when you are always looking downwards? Love is spiritual, and sex is animal. When the soul controls the animal; uses it for the benefit of another in true love, and giving instead of taking; the act of making love, becomes the nearest thing to “Heaven on Earth”.
 





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#31
Actually I may have misunderstood you?

Might this be more appropriate to the question?

The Way home or face The Fire 6:31 How can anyone expect to find love, when they are looking in all the wrong places? Look up, not down. How can you expect to see what is above you, when you are always looking downwards? Love is spiritual, and sex is animal. When the soul controls the animal; uses it for the benefit of another in true love, and giving instead of taking; the act of making love, becomes the nearest thing to “Heaven on Earth”.
So is he married, this prophet of yours? It seems from his attitude towards women that he would be suggesting celibacy... I mean, I can't really see how it would be otherwise, "hey honey, don't worry in a couple of thousand years you'll reach my level of spiritual evolution" isn't the kind of talk that proves particularly helpful in relationships. Anyway, celibacy can be useful, but a lot of men can't handle it and wind up developing problems which they wouldn't have if they were in a relationship.
 





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#32
So is he married, this prophet of yours? It seems from his attitude towards women that he would be suggesting celibacy... I mean, I can't really see how it would be otherwise, "hey honey, don't worry in a couple of thousand years you'll reach my level of spiritual evolution" isn't the kind of talk that proves particularly helpful in relationships.
https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-story-of-the-birth-of-krishna.6717/#post-250514

Anyway, celibacy can be useful, but a lot of men can't handle it and wind up developing problems which they wouldn't have if they were in a relationship.
Sometimes "a man's got to do what a man's got to do", and do without women to do what he has to do.
 





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#33
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#34
That could be considered the earliest dating, right? They might as well have been written in 2nd century CE?


Can you name the books (apart from Bhishma and Ashmavedhika) where this is written about Krishna?
still older than christianity..
i mean, plotinus was the guy who travelled to persia, then came up the trinitarian concept...which influenced st augustine who himself was instrumental in formulating the trinitarian doctrine.
the '3' was never in question...it was more about understanding how they relate to each other..
Brahman
Vishnu
Brahma-Shiva

Brahma-Shiva are the causal level...eg creation and dissolution. ~The first and the last. our spiritual descent and ascent.
The holy spirit, the First and the last.
The spirit of God hovered over the waters...
the waters being the universal consciousness..the logos. The Holy Spirit gives the morning star eg wisdom. Wisdom was the first thing created.
 





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#35
Yeah sure, I'm not against Brahmacharya, just it can cause problems if people try to take it up without having the necessary strength to actually maintain it.
Yes agreed; quite a challenge. It's actually the the whole Garden of Eden thing: it's what got us here, and is keeping most here.

Anyway, interesting to hear about the teachings you're following, even if I remain somewhat skeptical.
You're welcome, and thank-you for your interest. And understood.
 





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#36
still older than christianity..
i mean, plotinus was the guy who travelled to persia, then came up the trinitarian concept...which influenced st augustine who himself was instrumental in formulating the trinitarian doctrine.
the '3' was never in question...it was more about understanding how they relate to each other..
Brahman
Vishnu
Brahma-Shiva

Brahma-Shiva are the causal level...eg creation and dissolution. ~The first and the last. our spiritual descent and ascent.
The holy spirit, the First and the last.
The spirit of God hovered over the waters...
the waters being the universal consciousness..the logos. The Holy Spirit gives the morning star eg wisdom. Wisdom was the first thing created.
If they are written in the 2nd century, then no. Apostles Thomas and Bartholomew were present in Parthia and India already in the first half of the 1st century AD.

With regards to your Trimurti, where does Brahman fit into this? The Trimurti is a tritheistic concept of three devas. Devas in Hinduism are the elemental (material) powers of the universe. They are not transcendental. They are the Indian equivalents of other polytheistic pantheons, whether Semitic, Greek, Norse, ... If you want to find similarity in Hinduism with Christian teaching, one should look in the Upanishads. The Brahman-Atman is reminiscent, possibly identical, to the concepts of the outer and inner, the Christ and inner Christ in Christianity. But in Hinduism I haven't yet come across an equivalent of the Christian trinity. Its predecessor is nowhere to be found in Hinduism according to me, but in Zoroastrianism. Zarathustra is the one who gave the devas their proper place as lesser (and evil) deities and founded the first true monotheism. He lamented the ritual sacrifices of the sacrificial priests who keep the righteous from the "Best Thought", just as Jesus did with the Pharisees in the Temple of Solomon:


Gatha 32
11. It is they, the liars, who destroy life, who are mightily determined to deprive matron and master of the enjoyment of their heritage, in that they would prevent the righteous, O Mazda, from the Best Thought.
12. Since they by their lore would pervert men from the best doing, Mazda uttered evil against them, who destroy the life of the Ox with shouts of joy, by whom Grehma and his tribe are preferred to the Right and the Karapan and the lordship of them that seek after the Lie.



In Zarathustra's Hymns you actually find the exact equivalent of the later Christian Trinity:


Gatha 28
1. With outspread hands in petition for that help, O Mazda, I will pray for the works of the holy spirit, O thou the Right, whereby I may please the will of Good Thought and the Ox-Soul.
2. I who would serve you, O Mazda Ahura and Vohu Mano, do ye give through Asha the blessings of both worlds, the bodily and that of the Spirit, which set the faithful in felicity.
3. I who would praise ye as never before, Right and Good Thought and Mazda Ahura, and those for whom Piety makes an imperishable Dominion to grow; come ye to me help at my call.


---> Vohu Mana, meaning the Good Thought. Equivalent of the Holy Spirit.

---> Ahura Mazda, meaning Divine Wisdom. Ahura (literally: Lord), masculin word. Mazda, feminine word, is the equivalent of the Graeco-Christian Sophia (Wisdom). Together they form one, Father-Mother, as in the Christian Gnostic system. Just as the union of Father-Mother (Sophia) produces the Son (Logos), so too does the union of Ahura and Mazda produce Asha (literally: the Word).

---> Asha, or Asha Vahishta (literally: True Word), in the Gathas commonly translated as Right (Christian equivalent = Truth). is the Son of Ahura Mazda / Father-Mother, ie. the Logos


One could thus literally rephrase the first three verses of Gatha 28 as follows:


1. With outspread hands in petition for that help, O Sophia, I will pray for the works of the holy spirit, O thou the Son, whereby I may please the will of Holy Spirit and the Ox-Soul.
2. I who would serve you, O Mother-Father and Holy Spirit, do ye give through The Son the blessings of both worlds, the bodily and that of the Spirit, which set the faithful in felicity.
3. I who would praise ye as never before, the Son and the Holy Spirit and the Father-Mother, and those for whom Piety makes an imperishable Dominion to grow; come ye to me help at my call.



The Trinity is right there. For some reason this goes unnoticed. But Zarathustra reformed Vedism, the trinity is not Vedic or Brahmanic. Plotinus met with Persian philosophers, Zoroastrians. But the Greek and Persian philosophers had already had contact before Christ. Their encounters most likely fertilized the soils of the Hellenized world to receive God's Word. Thomas and Bartholomew had already gone to the Persians in 43AD. The Gnostic scriptures (eg. Secret Book of John) already contained the Trinity before Plotinus.

He said to me,
“John, why doubt?
Why be afraid?
Don’t you know this image?
Be not afraid.
I am with you (plural) always.
I am the Father
The Mother
The Son
I am the incorruptible
Purity.


- Secret Book of John

Zarathustra basically turned the Hindu cults on their head, just like Christ did with the henotheistic cults of the Semites. But Zarathustra didn't claim to be the Messiah. He prophesied the incarnation of Asha:


Gatha 43
15. As the holy one I recognized thee, Mazda Ahura (Father-Mother), when Good Thought (Holy Spirit) came to me, when the best Tushna-Matay taught me to declare: "Let not men seek again and again to please the Liars, for they make all the righteous enemies."
16. And Zarathushtra himself, O Ahura (Lord), chooses each one of thy holiest Spirit, O Mazda. May Right (the Logos) be embodied full of life and strength!


"be embodied" = receive a body.

Zarathustra prophesied the Saviour:

Gatha 44
1. This I ask Thee, tell me truly, Ahura - as to prayer, how it should be to one of you. O Mazda Ahura, might one like thee teach to a friend such as I am, and through friendly Right give us support, that Good Thought may come to us. (through friendly Word give us support, that the Holy Spirit may come to us.)
2. This I ask Thee, tell me truly, Ahura - whether at the beginning of the Best Existence the recompenses shall bring blessedness to him that meets with them. Surely he, O Right, the holy one, who watches in his spirit the transgression of all, if himself the benefactor of all that lives, O Mazda. (He, O Word, the holy one, who watches in his spirit the transgression of all, if himself the Benefactor (literally: Gr. Iesous Chrestos = "the Good Saviour" / Avestan: Saoshyant = "one who brings benefit" or Astvatereta = "he who embodies truth") of all that lives.)



The Christians had a Gospel of Zostrianos (teachings of Zoroaster) which says the following Christian teaching:

"Know those who are alive and the holy seed of Seth. Do not [show] disobedience to me. [Awaken] your divine part to God, and as for your sinless elect soul, strengthen it. Behold death here and seek the immutable ingenerateness, the [Father] of everything. He invites you, while they reprove you. Although they ill-treat you, he will not abandon you.
Do not baptize yourselves with death nor entrust yourselves to those who are inferior to you instead of to those who are better. Flee from the madness and the bondage of femaleness and choose for yourselves the salvation of maleness. You have not come to suffer; rather, you have come to escape your bondage.
Release yourselves, and that which has bound you will be dissolved. Save yourselves so that your soul may be saved. The kind Father has sent you the Savior and given you strength.
Now we may understand who the biblical Magi from the East were, and why they brought with them myrrh, gold and frankincense to the birth of Jesus. They are ceremonial items still used by Zoroastrian clergy today.


To wrap this up, when you say the Gita are a superior teaching than the Gospels, I'd say this:

Christ is the culmination of every inspired prophecy that came before it, whether the precedents were of divine inspiration or acquired higher wisdoms through philosophy and meditation, it was all achieved by men who extended their hand to God. With Christ, it was God Himself who extended His hand to us.​
 





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#37
With regards to your Trimurti, where does Brahman fit into this? The Trimurti is a tritheistic concept of three devas. Devas in Hinduism are the elemental (material) powers of the universe. They are not transcendental. They are the Indian equivalents of other polytheistic pantheons, whether Semitic, Greek, Norse, ... If you want to find similarity in Hinduism with Christian teaching, one should look in the Upanishads. The Brahman-Atman is reminiscent, possibly identical, to the concepts of the outer and inner, the Christ and inner Christ in Christianity. But in Hinduism I haven't yet come across an equivalent of the Christian trinity. Its predecessor is nowhere to be found in Hinduism according to me, but in Zoroastrianism. Zarathustra is the one who gave the devas their proper place as lesser (and evil) deities and founded the first true monotheism. He lamented the ritual sacrifices of the sacrificial priests who keep the righteous from the "Best Thought", just as Jesus did with the Pharisees in the Temple of Solomon:
Brahman is God itself, omnipresent and formless.

Brahma is a creator force, like the demiurge in Neoplatonism/Gnosticism.
Vishnu is the Logos unmanifest, his avatars are incarnations of the Logos manifest.
Shiva is the unification of creator and destroyer and the pure personification of God's omnipresence.

Brahman is all three, yet without any form comparable to it.

Shiva is the closest to the actualization of Brahman itself, Vishnu is really where the personal aspect of God (personified by other deities as well in Hinduism) comes in. It is the aspect of God that actually has a connection with humanity throughout history.

Different forms of Hinduism place different levels of importance to the three but the Trimurti itself is very much a philosophical centerpiece within expressing what Brahman (God) even is.

Brahma = The Father
Vishnu = The Son
Shiva = The Holy Spirit

It also makes a lot of sense too give the way the Holy Spirit has been traditionally treated in earlier forms of Christianity (although it does get decent consideration within Pentecostalism, despite the strangeness).

An interesting connection also is that Brahma is basically not worshiped at all by anyone, just like the pronunciation of the tetragrammaton was lost forever. The connection isn't too loose as they both represent the same idea.

Shiva is identified as the inner reality of God in everything, just as how Jesus is said to have 'given' the Holy Spirit to everyone, so the comparison is completely valid (and afterall Shaivites tend to be Nondualists), and also a Hindu equivalent of Genesis 2:7 because Shiva is not the depictions of him.
Vishnu is the bridge between God-the-Father and us, the intermediary aspect. It incarnates into flesh throughout the cycles of history.


However, in making comparisons it is always too easy to be disrespectful to other religious traditions, so take care.
 





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#38
Brahman is God itself, omnipresent and formless.

Brahma is a creator force, like the demiurge in Neoplatonism/Gnosticism.
Vishnu is the Logos unmanifest, his avatars are incarnations of the Logos manifest.
Shiva is the unification of creator and destroyer and the pure personification of God's omnipresence.

Brahman is all three, yet without any form comparable to it.

Shiva is the closest to the actualization of Brahman itself, Vishnu is really where the personal aspect of God (personified by other deities as well in Hinduism) comes in. It is the aspect of God that actually has a connection with humanity throughout history.

Different forms of Hinduism place different levels of importance to the three but the Trimurti itself is very much a philosophical centerpiece within expressing what Brahman (God) even is.

Brahma = The Father
Vishnu = The Son
Shiva = The Holy Spirit

It also makes a lot of sense too give the way the Holy Spirit has been traditionally treated in earlier forms of Christianity (although it does get decent consideration within Pentecostalism, despite the strangeness).

An interesting connection also is that Brahma is basically not worshiped at all by anyone, just like the pronunciation of the tetragrammaton was lost forever. The connection isn't too loose as they both represent the same idea.

Shiva is identified as the inner reality of God in everything, just as how Jesus is said to have 'given' the Holy Spirit to everyone, so the comparison is completely valid (and afterall Shaivites tend to be Nondualists), and also a Hindu equivalent of Genesis 2:7 because Shiva is not the depictions of him.
Vishnu is the bridge between God-the-Father and us, the intermediary aspect. It incarnates into flesh throughout the cycles of history.


However, in making comparisons it is always too easy to be disrespectful to other religious traditions, so take care.
Yes, I follow you on that one. See Chapter 3 on the Demiurge if you're interested in further comparisons.

But my inquiries remain unanswered. The Hinduism we know since the reformation of Shankara 8th C. AD is not the same as the Vedism or Brahmanism of the 2nd millenium BC, not even the same as the post-Vedic Vedanta. For instance, where and when did these philosophical concepts that tie Brahman with the Trimurti enter the Hindu religion? I'm talking written evidence or evidence that proves oral traditions that contain these teachings BC.
 





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#39
For instance, where and when did these philosophical concepts that tie Brahman with the Trimurti enter the Hindu religion? I'm talking written evidence or evidence that proves oral traditions that contain these teachings BC.
You'll find this throughout various Upanishads, such as the Maitrayaniya Upanishad, the Brahma Upanishad etc.

As for Adi Shankara, while he was a philosophical revolutionary, none of his ideas actually where. He repeated what was already taught in the Upanishads, his genius came from his arguments and debates. But I am very much not talking about Vedanta in any of this.
 





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#40
You'll find this throughout various Upanishads, such as the Maitrayaniya Upanishad, the Brahma Upanishad etc.

As for Adi Shankara, while he was a philosophical revolutionary, none of his ideas actually where. He repeated what was already taught in the Upanishads, his genius came from his arguments and debates. But I am very much not talking about Vedanta in any of this.
Feel like we're beating around the bush. Claims have been made that incarnation of God and the Logos existed prior to Christian revelation. I'd like to see actual scriptures that show this and that genuinely date from BC.