The Sovereignty Of God

shankara

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Isn’t everything you think and like just opinion or a statement? You agree with some things and not with others. You hold Plato up as a guiding light..unless of course he says something positive about Jesus.. while I hold up God and His word the Bible as a guiding light. After all Jesus says He is the light of the world..why would you or anyone else need any other? All the world is in darkness...so to believe someone that someone in darkness wrote doesn’t make you enlightened but deceived...why would anyone look beyond God’s word the Bible to learn about who He is anyway?

Since God is good, then He alone knows what reality is and isn’t, we who are sinners can’t really know the reality without God. Our sins and our evil hearts will tell us the things we want to hear and know about...
Jeremiah tells us that our hearts are more deceitful than anything else and desperately sick ..Jeremiah 17:9. The only book then that can shed light onto our actual reality is the Bible, the book inspired by God. Our actual reality is that we have all gone astray and we are all sinners.

What does this have to do with God’s sovereignty? That without the Bible we cannot understand Him or His sovereign nature. Some think that being sovereign means that God should be controlling except when He shouldn’t...God is therefore put into a box according to our own whims and desires and cannot deviate from that to be seen as real.

In the end you’ll only like things that line up with what you think anyway and discredit and discount anything else...always learning but never coming to the truth.
Ok you actually kind of say something relevant about Plato, it is actually one of the premises of the argument that Plato actually had some kind of Gnosis. It also seems from the rest of what you say that you are denying the possibility of any kind of Gnosis brought about by Ascesis and Contemplation, which was another premise of the argument.

Now I think the interesting thing in what you are saying is about our heart being sick, misguided. To me that suggests that we need to purify our heart if we want to arrive at any kind of contact with Truth. I don't see any other ways to do this except Asceticism and Contemplation, prayer included but not so much prayer of petition. For example what do you think of the Orthodox "Jesus Prayer"? Why is it that the Protestant Churches don't have this focus on techniques of purifying the heart?

Furthermore, is not your own belief a matter of the Heart? How do you know that it isn't you're own heart which has been lead astray? In fact, if you are an enemy of all contemplative practice then I don't really think it's possible to develop enough Self-Knowledge to see clearly what is within one's own heart, because Self-Knowledge depends on having some distance from the chaos of the self. If you don't have Self-Knowledge, how can you see whether your beliefs come from actual insight or if they are simply the results of complexes and neuroses? I guess what I'm really saying is, how can you deny the possibility of Gnosis, having never sought it?

The question about Plato kind of depends upon the question about Gnosis, I would say. By the way, what do you think of his Allegory of the Cave? To me it resonates with a lot of what the Christ said about the prophets being persecuted for their vision.
 

Lisa

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Ok you actually kind of say something relevant about Plato, it is actually one of the premises of the argument that Plato actually had some kind of Gnosis. It also seems from the rest of what you say that you are denying the possibility of any kind of Gnosis brought about by Ascesis and Contemplation, which was another premise of the argument.

Now I think the interesting thing in what you are saying is about our heart being sick, misguided. To me that suggests that we need to purify our heart if we want to arrive at any kind of contact with Truth. I don't see any other ways to do this except Asceticism and Contemplation, prayer included but not so much prayer of petition. For example what do you think of the Orthodox "Jesus Prayer"? Why is it that the Protestant Churches don't have this focus on techniques of purifying the heart?

Furthermore, is not your own belief a matter of the Heart? How do you know that it isn't you're own heart which has been lead astray? In fact, if you are an enemy of all contemplative practice then I don't really think it's possible to develop enough Self-Knowledge to see clearly what is within one's own heart, because Self-Knowledge depends on having some distance from the chaos of the self. If you don't have Self-Knowledge, how can you see whether your beliefs come from actual insight or if they are simply the results of complexes and neuroses? I guess what I'm really saying is, how can you deny the possibility of Gnosis, having never sought it?

The question about Plato kind of depends upon the question about Gnosis, I would say. By the way, what do you think of his Allegory of the Cave? To me it resonates with a lot of what the Christ said about the prophets being persecuted for their vision.
You’re funny, I mention Plato and you say bing! I have something worth saying...lol!

The heart isn’t misguided, its sick, desperately sick..and is deceitful, it lies to us...of course we can never hear this in the world, we only hear this in the word of God. There is no way to purify our hearts ourselves..we can’t do it, the only way that our hearts can be purified is through belief in Jesus, cleansing hearts by faith. That is the only way.

The Bible tells us that we can do nothing good on our own, and that all our good works without God are simply dirty rags. Contemplation prayer is not really praying to God or relying on God, emptying the mind only makes it possible for deceitful spirits to come into your mind and deceive you. God can speak to anyone and you don’t have to clear it out to hear Him. God is not limited to what He can do, its we who limit Him with foolish things like emptying the mind to hear God.

I would say self knowledge is an enemy to God...you are then saying that you know better than God..which is what the rebellion of God in the garden was all about..they wanted to be like God but without God. You can’t have any knowledge without God because our hearts will always lie to us. How do I know that I am in the faith and not just lying to myself? I believe on Jesus to be saved. I believe that He is God, I have the Holy Spirit, which is another indication.

I’m sorry, I’m not familiar with the allegory of the cave.
 

shankara

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You’re funny, I mention Plato and you say bing! I have something worth saying...lol!

The heart isn’t misguided, its sick, desperately sick..and is deceitful, it lies to us...of course we can never hear this in the world, we only hear this in the word of God. There is no way to purify our hearts ourselves..we can’t do it, the only way that our hearts can be purified is through belief in Jesus, cleansing hearts by faith. That is the only way.

The Bible tells us that we can do nothing good on our own, and that all our good works without God are simply dirty rags. Contemplation prayer is not really praying to God or relying on God, emptying the mind only makes it possible for deceitful spirits to come into your mind and deceive you. God can speak to anyone and you don’t have to clear it out to hear Him. God is not limited to what He can do, its we who limit Him with foolish things like emptying the mind to hear God.

I would say self knowledge is an enemy to God...you are then saying that you know better than God..which is what the rebellion of God in the garden was all about..they wanted to be like God but without God. You can’t have any knowledge without God because our hearts will always lie to us. How do I know that I am in the faith and not just lying to myself? I believe on Jesus to be saved. I believe that He is God, I have the Holy Spirit, which is another indication.

I’m sorry, I’m not familiar with the allegory of the cave.
Yeah I went 'bing' because you actually said something that related with one of the premises of the argument, which was that Plato had Gnosis. It's a shame you aren't familiar with the Allegory of the Cave because it basically describes what happens to every prophet who appears on Earth, they leave the realm of shadows where the majority are trapped, see the real world outside, then are persecuted when they try to tell humanity about it. This is exactly what Jesus says in the Gospel about the prophets: "Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city".

I would also suggest that Plato pointed to the Christ, so long as we understand that Christ is an Archetype:

...for Plato the highest Form was the form of GOODNESS. He says:

"As goodness stands in the intelligible realm to intelligence and the things we know, so in the visible realm the sun stands to sight and the things we see."

This is actually wholly compatible with the notion found in the Gospel Of John that Christ is the Logos. What greater Goodness can be imagined than to sacrifice oneself fully for the uplifting of humanity? Furthermore this fits neatly with Plato’s analogy comparing Goodness to the Sun. Every culture contains some variant of the Solar Myth, the Dying God who is then Resurrected such as Dionysus (like Christ, associated with wine) and festivals associated with the Solstices. Christ’s interpreters in organized religion hate this idea, they want to be the only ones in possession of the Truth, and the notion that the Christ is a Universal Archetype is offensive to them. Well, let the Pharisees be Pharisees if that’s what they want - "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains”, the Messiah tells us.
Actually he's telling us to follow the Christ in a way, because the Archetype of the Dying-Resurrecting Sun God is just that, an Archetype, but Christ actually lived out the drama in reality, so basically he's the highest prophet, the Messiah.

Anyway, what you say about Self-Knowledge makes me feel very bad for you. If you looked within yourself then perhaps you would see the neuroses and complexes at the root of your beliefs. We all have them, and we are all sometimes led by them, but to know oneself is to free oneself. It is the light of Divinity which allows us to see ourselves clearly, which gives us the possibility to work on the chaos of ourselves.
 

Lisa

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Yeah I went 'bing' because you actually said something that related with one of the premises of the argument, which was that Plato had Gnosis. It's a shame you aren't familiar with the Allegory of the Cave because it basically describes what happens to every prophet who appears on Earth, they leave the realm of shadows where the majority are trapped, see the real world outside, then are persecuted when they try to tell humanity about it. This is exactly what Jesus says in the Gospel about the prophets: "Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city".
I would also suggest that Plato pointed to the Christ, so long as we understand that Christ is an Archetype:



Actually he's telling us to follow the Christ in a way, because the Archetype of the Dying-Resurrecting Sun God is just that, an Archetype, but Christ actually lived out the drama in reality, so basically he's the highest prophet, the Messiah.

Anyway, what you say about Self-Knowledge makes me feel very bad for you. If you looked within yourself then perhaps you would see the neuroses and complexes at the root of your beliefs. We all have them, and we are all sometimes led by them, but to know oneself is to free oneself. It is the light of Divinity which allows us to see ourselves clearly, which gives us the possibility to work on the chaos of ourselves.
Self knowledge...
Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?
I mentioned Plato and you thought I said something interesting...which I didn’t...lol!

Jesus said this about the prophets God sends..
Luke 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city what kills the prophets and stones those sent to her!
Why do you think they did that to the prophets of God? Probably because they didn’t like what God was telling them and didn’t want to hear it..so they made up things that they thought were from God that they liked better...you aren’t doing anything new ya know...
 

shankara

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Self knowledge...
Jeremiah 17:9​

The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?​
Exactly why ascetics go through the process of purification, having "a broken heart, and a contrite spirit".

Probably because they didn’t like what God was telling them and didn’t want to hear it..so they made up things that they thought were from God that they liked better...you aren’t doing anything new ya know...
Hmm...

My friend,
Indeed we have to believe on Jesus Christ but this alone won’t save us from the lake of fire. If we believe on him but don’t obey his commandments then our faith is vain, even devils believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God but they are still damned. Faith alone won’t save us, Jesus Christ said “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”.

It is through baptism that our old man is buried (who was a sinner and walked according to the flesh) and it is through baptism whereby we put on the new man who walks in the spirit as a saint. “Know ye not, that so many of us aswere baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life”- Romans 6:3-5.It is through baptism that we come to be in Christ(Galatians 3:27). In order for us to inherit the kingdom of heaven we must walk in repentance, holiness and righteousness, we must be perfect!(1 Peter 1:15-17, 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Philippians 1:11, James 1:4)

The false churches will tell you that “you can’t be perfect” or “you’ll always be a sinner” but if that was the case you couldn’t inherit the kingdom of God. See Jesus himself said“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect” and many scriptures state the simple fact that the end of a sinner is hell “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”Revelation 21:8

We will fall and sin at times, but what’s important is we quickly get back up, and with a true repented heart we confess our sin to God who is just to forgive us, our sin will then be covered by the blood of Christ and blotted out so that we can continue to stand in the presence of God in holiness. A sinner is someone who sins say in day out, they are not truly remorseful of their sins, they are not conscious of many of their sins and they don’t turn from their sins. They may think by telling God they have sinned they are forgiven, but it is just mere words their heart is still corrupt and they still have a reprobate mind.

Ps. I posted this comment on another thread, but have seen you also have commented here
 

Jayda

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Ok, interesting, we agree on some things. For one the notion that to be a part of any genuine Elect requires moral qualities, that is to say obeying the Christ rather than simply believing in the Christ. But what would you make of say a Hindu, or a Buddhist, or a Muslim, who is on the same ethical level? Would the gates of Heaven be open to them as well?

Now, what you say about God not being able to lie also accords with what I was saying, after all to lie would not be in accordance with the nature of Goodness. However we have to properly define the concept of lying. I came up with an analogy of road signs. If one is coming from the east, the road sign would have some certain directions to the place where one is going, coming from the west different directions. Does this not suggest that all religions can have the same essential meaning, none of them being lies but simply ways of pointing to the same thing?

There's another parable in this regard. A father sees that his children are in a burning house (the material world) and promises them all a gift if they leave the house. When they leave he gives them a gift, but not exactly what he promised. Is this lying, or does the good intention make it truth?

But are there other things God cannot do if He is Good? For example:



Can He punish without intent to rehabilitate, or would this be Evil/Bad and therefore not in accordance with the nature of God? And if God is not Good, and did not conform to the nature of God, would He be worthy of worship or be a Demiurge?

The quote you give from Isiah is interesting, I think we are incapable of fully comprehending Divinity, actually, it makes sense in relation to a part of my argument, which was that humanity's psyche is disordered and subjective, incapable of directly perceiving Truth, the living reality of things. But surely we can understand what is Good enough to draw conclusions about how a Good God would act?
Those people that belong to those religious groups and even most Christians won't make it into the Kingdom of Heaven, they don't worship or serve the one true God neither do they believe and obey the gospel of Christ. I don't quite get the parables if all religions had the same meaning then why would be they different? If the father didn't specify what the gift was but gave them a gift how is this lying?

I think to understand eternal punishment we need to really understand that God is holy and he wants his kingdom to be pure and perfect just as he is. I think some of us may see Hell as an unfair punishment because we don't truly understand the depths of God's holiness and we have been so desensitised to how wicked and evil sin is, we are surrounded by sin and this can cause us to measure our own sin where we think a little lie is not the same as murder, but God hates all sin. Hell itself should indicate the severity of sinning.

God definitely punishes us with the intent that we repent from our sin and seek after righteousness, he is not just punishing people for fun. However, if we continue in our sin and die a sinner by denying his mercy and salvation, God has a place for such people. If God was not good he is still God, what difference would it make, I am a human His creation and he is my GOD my creator, what could I do haha?

In my opinion, I think humans can't judge whats good or bad without understanding what's good and bad from God our teacher, left to our own devices we are weak to the flesh and come up with all sorts of justifications for things that are just point-blank wrong like for example the murder of an unborn child.

Question: What do you believe in and what are you trying to gain from this discussion? :)
 

Jayda

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Ya, I saw that you posted this twice...I’ll answer here since @shankara thinks her thread is dead anyway...

Have you never read John 3:16? For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whomsoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life? Is this wrong...because if it is...

Acts‬ ‭16:29-31‬ ‭​

And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.​


Seems like faith is enough to start the process, one must continue to be in the faith to be saved though, without faith it is impossible to please Him.
Hebrews‬ ‭11:6‬ ‭​

And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.​


‭‭It is true that after you are saved by believing in Jesus, then the Holy Spirit comes to you and lives with in your heart with you..
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭1:21-22‬ ‭​

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.​


As for being baptized in Christ...I think Christians want to get baptized to say publicly I believe in Jesus...

You forget the Galatians 3:25-26 But not that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Jesus Christ. And..sure we must keep in the faith and not be deceived to continue on in the faith, unless you believe like so many do that once saved is always saved...

You say that the church tells us that we will always be sinner and can’t be perfect and then in the next paragraph you say we will fall and sin at times...isn’t that the same thing?

No one is going to be perfect and not sin in Christ..but I agree, hopefully you will repent of your sins when you do. We are all still sinners, did the sin nature in us go away when we believed? We still have that striving against sin that we must contend with. I think its deceitful to think that Christians don’t or can’t sin and that they are somehow perfect, we aren’t perfect though I think its the Christians duty to resist sin and call on God to help them in resisting.


‭‭
Ya, I saw that you posted this twice...I’ll answer here since @shankara thinks her thread is dead anyway...

Have you never read John 3:16? For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whomsoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life? Is this wrong...because if it is...

Acts‬ ‭16:29-31‬ ‭​

And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.​


Seems like faith is enough to start the process, one must continue to be in the faith to be saved though, without faith it is impossible to please Him.
Hebrews‬ ‭11:6‬ ‭​

And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.​


‭‭It is true that after you are saved by believing in Jesus, then the Holy Spirit comes to you and lives with in your heart with you..
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭1:21-22‬ ‭​

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.​


As for being baptized in Christ...I think Christians want to get baptized to say publicly I believe in Jesus...

You forget the Galatians 3:25-26 But not that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Jesus Christ. And..sure we must keep in the faith and not be deceived to continue on in the faith, unless you believe like so many do that once saved is always saved...

You say that the church tells us that we will always be sinner and can’t be perfect and then in the next paragraph you say we will fall and sin at times...isn’t that the same thing?

No one is going to be perfect and not sin in Christ..but I agree, hopefully you will repent of your sins when you do. We are all still sinners, did the sin nature in us go away when we believed? We still have that striving against sin that we must contend with. I think it's deceitful to think that Christians don’t or can’t sin and that they are somehow perfect, we aren’t perfect though I think its the Christians duty to resist sin and call on God to help them in resisting.


‭‭
No the scriptures are never wrong, however we can't just take scripture and throw it around to support a claim it has to be used correctly in its right context and supported by other scriptures, its easy to take scriptures out of context and use it to support a lie this is what Satan did when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness.

Faith alone won't save you, for example I can't be a drunkard my whole life and say "but hey I believe in Jesus Christ so I'm saved", to be saved I have to believe and obey the gospel of Jesus Christ which is to "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"-Acts 2:38 So I must turn away from being a drunkard and wash away my sins through baptism. Jesus said "He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved" this is exactly what the keeper of the prison did in Acts 16:29-33... He believed "And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." and then he was baptised... "And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. This is how people obey the gospel and its evident all through Acts (Acts 2:38, 8:12-16,10:43-48,19:5 & 22:16).

Baptism is our burial (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Romans 6:3-5, Colossians 2:12).

Yes a Christian that sins and a sinner are very different. A Christian may sin but they quickly repent from there sin and turn to God in humbleness and prayer and he will forgive them, when God forgives he doesn't just keep it in the back of his head for ammunition when you stand before him, when God forgives your sin is utterly blotted out and you can continue to be perfect and holy just as it is commanded. A sinner, however, continues in all their sins, he never truly repents and he is on the broad road to destruction. Why would Jesus Christ command us to be perfect if this was not possible? We crucify the old man daily and we walk after the new man in Spirit "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin" - Romans 6:6-23.

It is clear throughout scripture that we are to be blameless living righteously according to the faith, and if we don't repent from our sin we will go to Hell.
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God" 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
"And there shall in no wise enter into it anything that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life" - Revelation 21:27
 

Lisa

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No the scriptures are never wrong, however we can't just take scripture and throw it around to support a claim it has to be used correctly in its right context and supported by other scriptures, its easy to take scriptures out of context and use it to support a lie this is what Satan did when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness.

Faith alone won't save you, for example I can't be a drunkard my whole life and say "but hey I believe in Jesus Christ so I'm saved", to be saved I have to believe and obey the gospel of Jesus Christ which is to "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"-Acts 2:38 So I must turn away from being a drunkard and wash away my sins through baptism. Jesus said "He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved" this is exactly what the keeper of the prison did in Acts 16:29-33... He believed "And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." and then he was baptised... "And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. This is how people obey the gospel and its evident all through Acts (Acts 2:38, 8:12-16,10:43-48,19:5 & 22:16).

Baptism is our burial (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Romans 6:3-5, Colossians 2:12).

Yes a Christian that sins and a sinner are very different. A Christian may sin but they quickly repent from there sin and turn to God in humbleness and prayer and he will forgive them, when God forgives he doesn't just keep it in the back of his head for ammunition when you stand before him, when God forgives your sin is utterly blotted out and you can continue to be perfect and holy just as it is commanded. A sinner, however, continues in all their sins, he never truly repents and he is on the broad road to destruction. Why would Jesus Christ command us to be perfect if this was not possible? We crucify the old man daily and we walk after the new man in Spirit "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin" - Romans 6:6-23.

It is clear throughout scripture that we are to be blameless living righteously according to the faith, and if we don't repent from our sin we will go to Hell.
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God" 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
"And there shall in no wise enter into it anything that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life" - Revelation 21:27
The scriptures are never wrong but I’m wrong in John 1:1-4 and John 1:14?

Without faith you can’t be saved and without faith you can’t please God..it starts with faith. They first had to believe in Acts 16:29..being baptized had nothing to do with it..it was secondary.

I agree you can’t say you’re saved and spend your life as an alcoholic..but I think that you can be saved and struggle with alcohol. We all struggle with something (s). But, I do also believe that God can and will save you from it.

I thought we were washed from our sins through the blood of Jesus...the blood of Jesus, His Son cleanses us from all sin, 1 John 1:17..not being baptized.

No, we are never perfect and holy and yes God does forgive our sins and they aren’t used against us but it’s because of Jesus and His sacrifice that we are cleansed, and our believing in Jesus is why we are thought to be perfect and holy..because He is. I’m not sure of the verse you are talking about where Jesus commands us to be perfect.

Yep, sin should not be master over us..we will always be in that fight to not let it master us.
 

DavidSon

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The doctrine of the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD is that He can do whatever He pleases. There are no limits upon Him, and we cannot impose upon Him human conceptions of Right and Wrong. The criteria by which He judges are beyond our understanding and don’t have to conform with any human notion of Justice. If He wishes to sentence the majority of humanity to Eternal Damnation (conceived of by some as a pit of flames, literally speaking!), and save the Chosen Elect, He is quite entitled to do so. Furthermore this Chosen Elect do not require any extraordinary human or moral qualities, but rather may be chosen simply for professing the ‘correct’ doctrine. Because God can judge by whatever standard He wishes, He is quite entitled to judge in this way.

Or is He, in fact? Are there limitations on God’s Sovereignty? Are there things that God cannot do? If so, who or what is not allowing Him to do those things, what is the source of the limitation on His power?

First we must consider what is meant by the notion that God is not limited by human conceptions of Right and Wrong, Good and Bad. The key question about this is, what exactly do we mean by human conceptions? It is clear that everyone has an intellect, that there are different types of intelligence, that there are different conceptions about reality held by different individuals. All of these conceptions form a great morass of contradictory ideas which are constantly being debated, discussed, fought over with arms and such.

Why is this? We can say that it is because humanity’s psyche is in a subjective and disordered state. This subjectivity is limited vision, is an incapacity to comprehend the reality around us. This subjectivity is a one-sidedness, an inability to perceive what Kant called the “thing-in-itself”. Such disordered mentation produces opinion, which is a kind of judgement about reality founded to a certain extent in fact and to a certain extent in falsity, but which is never actually identical with THE REAL as such. The great Plato says:

Understand then, that it is the same with the soul, thus: when it settles itself firmly in that region in which truth and real being brightly shine, it understands and knows it and appears to have reason; but when it has nothing to rest on but that which is mingled with darkness—that which becomes and perishes, it opines, it grows dim-sighted, changing opinions up and down, and is like something without reason.”

It is not only the mentally ill who are “out of touch with reality”. Indeed, the delirious conceptions of lunatics often contain a great deal of Truth, albeit in disordered form. All opinion is a form of projection upon the living and breathing existence of the world around us. This living and breathing existence is the Truth, at least in a relative sense. How then can we access this Truth? What is the method by which we can transcend mere subjective ideation? Can it be transcended, or is it, as the philosophers of deconstructionism and postmodernity hold, inescapable?

In order to make progress with this question, it is necessary to recognise the Nature Of Mind. We are constantly engaged in various types of internal processes accompanied by some kind of inner voice or commentary. If we do intellectual work we go through processes of thinking and reasoning about subjects and come up with logically consistent or logically inconsistent conclusions. Now, this is an important point, in fact. There are conclusions which appear to be logically consistent, yet which fold under more scrupulous analysis.

For example, the Atheists conclude that as there is no evidence of God, in the sense of visible signs, that God does not exist. They ignore that the existence of Divinity is proved by the simple fact of human consciousness, the Light which shines in the midst of the darkness of non-being. From whence comes this light, if not from God? Ponder that a little.

In more concrete matters, people continue to believe in the neo-liberal economic system, that the rich getting richer will somehow make the world a happier place, despite the fact that it is clear to see that happiness lies in co-operation rather than competition, in meaningful labour rather than seeking only wealth. It is undeniable that we are lied to every day, that it is desired that we simply consume, and shut up, and don’t question. Yet people will nonetheless obstinately believe that this is not the case, based on faulty logic. They may base their notions on the “laws” of economics, that “perfectly competitive markets” are the answer to our problems. They ignore that consumers are not rational, as economics believes, being made irrational by such factors as advertising and peer pressure, brainwashed effectively. Furthermore, the “social welfare function”, the form and regulations of the economy which would actually contribute the most to human happiness, has admittedly not been discovered, it’s “decision rule is unknown”. With this latter point, the whole “science” collapses, like the allegorical house built upon the sand.

What we are suggesting is that subjective intellect is never, in reality, logically consistent, why? Because it comes from the Mind, which in human beings of the present time is in a state of disorder and chaos. Indeed it would be better to call us “Intellectual Animals”. We are almost constantly projecting, because we are almost constantly ruled over by the chaos of the Mind, disorder and subjectivity. But then, you may object, if we are constantly in a state of projections how can we have any insight into an Objective Truth? Better to abandon the quest and simply accept subjectivity as the sole standard of verification. Yet there is a kind of fatalism in this idea, and fatalism is destructive, tending towards nihilism.

Evidently, and as our experience attests, there are moments of Clarity experienced by all human beings, moments when the discursive mind stops and we intuitively grasp something of the Great Reality. We have all experienced this, though we may not be fully aware that we have. Following these moments, we tend to take the intuitive insight and slot it into our intellectual system in some way, construct some slightly altered kind of subjective ideas based on the non-subjective Illumination. Yet it is quite possible to overcome to some extent this tendency and develop some lasting and coherent Insight into Objective Reality, Truth. For the method of doing this, we must turn to religion.

Buddhism is a religion where God is irrelevant. Not denied as some believe, simply irrelevant. It is a religion based around a technique of Ascesis and Meditation, with it’s fundamental aim being to develop Insight Into Reality.

The Ascetic element of Buddhism is due to the fact that the more we are consumed by the addiction to sensual enjoyment, the less we are able to separate ourselves from the discursive Mind, the “monkey mind” as it is called in Zen, or perhaps we could say “carnal mind”. This is the mind which is constantly moving all over the place, flitting from one subject to another, “remembering the past and anticipating the future”. Our addictions, our dissoluteness, occupies our thoughts and prevents us from developing detachment, which is the source of clarity. The Meditative element of Buddhism further cultivates this detachment through the repetition of the exercise of concentration and stilling our restless tendency. This helps us to be open and receptive, rather than being caught up in thought processes, projections.

A person who actually sees Reality exactly as it is without subjective projection, would be a Buddha, a “Fully Awakened One”. Of course this is a very exalted and lofty state, which only illustrates to us quite how powerfully we are consumed by subjectivity. In some forms of Buddhism all the subjective mental states based on negative emotions are actually delineated and separately listed, and there are very many of them! Nonetheless it is quite possible for ordinary people to develop “Samadhi” through persistent practise. This “Samadhi” effectively means Insight, the moment when the meditator and the object of meditation become one, which was earlier referred to as Clarity. In fact it is Clarity in a much deeper sense than we might usually associate with that word, a type of Clarity which can extend to a Metaphysical level. It is a wellspring of Direct Insight permeating the Consciousness and uplifting the life of a person.

Now, it is the type of Clarity extending to the metaphysical that we must deal with here, our question being about the doctrine of the Sovereignty of God. The perceptive among you will have noticed that we have just jumped from a teaching without God – Buddhism – to a question about the Deity whose existence Buddhists are unconcerned about. But the example of Buddhism was given simply to point to the whole idea of a non-subjective Reality attainable by spiritual practise. In fact all genuine and serious religions have the exact same foundations as Buddhism - Ascesis and techniques of Meditation, and though these techniques differ in Form they are quite the same in Essence.

What we develop through such techniques, Direct Insight into Spiritual Realities (without excluding worldly realities) is most appropriately known as GNOSIS. The powerful tremble at the word, knowing that it signifies religion without the intermediary of priests and the overthrowing of the dogmas by which humanity is oppressed and controlled. Someone who has experienced Gnosis is a danger to the powerful. They have perceived something of God, and they don’t need their perceptions to conform to the misguided notions popularized by the Pharisaic powers-that-be.

The philosophy of Plato is truly something very transcendental, a philosophy of Gnosis in a very pure form. This is abundantly clear in his famous “Allegory of the Cave”, which is effectively the story of every prophet who has ever arisen in this world. Many religious people are suspicious of philosophers, sometimes going so far as to reject them completely, perhaps based on their reactions to the decadence which masquerades as philosophy in these times. This is surely their misfortune, as without exposure to philosophy they will never understand the beauty of genuine philosophical coherence, and their own views will remain shallow and undeveloped. Even the most materialistic and gross philosophies, sophistries, contain some Intelligence, at the least a kind of Shadow of Wisdom, which can be useful for our personal development. The character of Socrates developed his ideas through disputing with the sophists. The higher philosophies – Kant and Hegel for example – are founded on deep insights into reality, even if they are untenable in some extraneous details.

What we find particularly interesting in Plato, in relation to our topic, is his THEORY OF FORMS. The Forms are IDEAS in their purest form and in complete abstraction. That is to say that they are devoid of any Temporal element, they are Eternal and Self-Existing. This is another way of saying they are LOGOS, perfect Logic, devoid of any subjective element, flawless. The Forms will serve as the basis for our analysis of the Sovereignty of God.

But the philosophy of Plato is still in the realm of “human” conceptions, some will immediately object. We respectfully disagree, it is not the same as the disordered conceptions of the “Intellectual Animal”. Plato’s philosophy is not founded in the ultimately incoherent logic of subjectivity, because as we have mentioned it is one-hundred percent Gnostic. It is not the product of untamed intellect and speculative theorising, but of a wholly sincere and self-denying process of questioning. It’s difference from subjective sophistry is like the difference between a musician who knows the notes, scales and harmonies, and someone who just picks up an instrument and starts making a sound with it. That is not to say that it is “Absolute Truth” because such a level of Truth cannot be systematized, but it is founded on Direct Insight into Reality of the same kind as is brought about by any form of the aforementioned processes of Ascesis and Meditation. Plato was perhaps among the sages like Buddha, Christ, Krishna, who reached such a high level of development as to be free from subjective bias, or was at the very least a mouthpiece of such perennial wisdom, being an Initiate of the Elusinian Mysteries. His teachings are true Philos Sophia, Dharma.

Returning to the Theory of the Forms, for Plato the highest Form was the form of GOODNESS. He says:

"As goodness stands in the intelligible realm to intelligence and the things we know, so in the visible realm the sun stands to sight and the things we see."

This is actually wholly compatible with the notion found in the Gospel Of John that Christ is the Logos. What greater Goodness can be imagined than to sacrifice oneself fully for the uplifting of humanity? Furthermore this fits neatly with Plato’s analogy comparing Goodness to the Sun. Every culture contains some variant of the Solar Myth, the Dying God who is then Resurrected such as Dionysus (like Christ, associated with wine) and festivals associated with the Solstices. Christ’s interpreters in organized religion hate this idea, they want to be the only ones in possession of the Truth, and the notion that the Christ is a Universal Archetype is offensive to them. Well, let the Pharisees be Pharisees if that’s what they want - "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains”, the Messiah tells us.

Incidentally, many of the Neo-Platonists spoke not of Goodness but of “The One” as the highest Form. Here we will concern ourselves with Goodness, as “The One” is more an Ontological than Existential concept, and deals with a level of abstraction which is the Absolute (the Kabbalistic Ain, Ain Soph, Ain Soph Aur) rather than the Logos (the Kabbalistic Kether, Chokmah, Binah). It is not necessary to make any kind of metaphysical distinction about the correct or incorrect Highest Form here, it is not relevant to our subject. We are dealing with the realm of individual beings, our separated existence which is life on Earth, from which the Absolute is very far detached, hence it is Plato’s concept which is important, which it is possible to draw conclusions from. The Absolute is separated from the life of humanity by an impassible gulf beyond which there is no individual existence. We can know God the Logos through Reason, but in regard to the Absolute reasoning is effectively futile.

What does this mean, to say Goodness is the Highest Form? It is to say that the Nature of God is Goodness. Of course here we only see a reflection of Goodness, like everything else in this realm of shadows. Nonetheless it is quite possible for us to draw some conclusions about the Ultimate Goodness from the Goodness we see in the physical plane. Our already mentioned individual capacity to discern Truth, what is known as “Buddha Nature” or perhaps “The Spirit” or something of this sort, gives us enough insight to make valid analogies.

This point might be difficult for some, and indeed it is risky idea if we take it too far. Some might say that to be Good would mean, for example, not to condemn someone for being a libertine or debauchee and that those who do condemn such a person are not Good. Evidently we must view The Good with the understanding that transient pleasures are just that, different from the true pleasure brought about by the cultivation of detachment, that is to say the attitude that the material world is a place of temptation and trial, something to be overcome. Plato himself, as well as Buddha and many others, arrived at this conclusion by the process of genuine philosophy, sincere Love of Wisdom, a search for truth which does not fall into the trap of seeking justifications for ego, rationalizations.

Let’s take one simple example of applying such analogies - if someone were well disposed only to their own family, or race, or culture, or religion, while being wrathful, cruel and angry with others, we would probably not regard that person to be manifesting Goodness. Nor then, should we regard a deity manifesting the same tendencies as Good, and if the deity is not so then the deity cannot be God as God’s primary attribute is Goodness.

We are reaching the crux of the issue. God is Goodness, and therefore God must be Good. This seems to rule out certain elements of that nightmarish caricature of a Divinity found in many Abrahamic conceptions thereof, which are distortions only seeming to hold water while we have an incorrect and imbalanced notion about the Sovereignty of God.

God is indeed the Highest, there is nobody and no-one limiting Him. But at the same time, He is what He is (“I AM THAT I AM”, He tells us). If what God is, is Goodness, He must act in accordance with the nature of Goodness. He is not externally constrained, but He is constrained by His own Nature. Love is certainly an element of Goodness, indeed if we do not Love our fellow humans we would not be Good to them. God, then, is also Love, and all of the other things which we can conceive of as being elements of The Good. Other things we could include might be Power, for when it is used in the service of The Good, Power may be a great virtue. Wisdom, too, for to do Good requires it. One could continue to delineate many other virtues of the Divinity in this way, and surely some have done so, and gained Gnosis thereby.

Well, what does all this mean for theology, philosophy? Well, how could a God who is Good condemn souls to suffer for an Eternity? If we were to encounter someone so severe that they would continue forever in hate for a mistake made in a moment (which is all our life is), would we consider them Good? Rather, we would surely consider them to be a tyrant, a person whose forgiveness would not even be worth seeking. It may be that heinous acts (“sins”) merit suffering, but if such suffering should not have the aim of eventually proving redemptive, being punishment without rehabilitation, this would not be Goodness but the height of cruelty.

Furthermore we could exclude the conception of a God who delights in war and in the physical destruction of enemies, for surely to be bellicose is incompatible with Goodness. We could also exclude a God who permits all kinds of sensualism, for we can see that sensualism renders a person weak and susceptible to tyranny, and Goodness must surely be ever the enemy of tyranny. Also the conception of a God who has revealed Himself to one particular people but not to others must be rejected, as a person who is Good is kindly disposed towards all people, loves all people, manifesting that love in whatever way is appropriate, and so it must be with God, who is the friend to all humanity.

Another example of action not in accordance with the nature of Goodness, would be if God were to award salvation to a person simply due to a deathbed repentance (perhaps made out of fear). Such an act may improve the person’s spiritual situation in some way, but would certainly not win them a place among the righteous. If that were the case then it would render all struggle for righteousness meaningless, if the same can be attained without effort. No God who is Just would permit such a thing, and Justice is another essential element of Goodness. The analogous human situation would be if a person were to have equal respect for somebody trying to manipulate their way into their good graces and a true friend who had been loyal to them for a long time.

Of course this will be difficult for some people to hear, as it is a commonly held opinion that God awards salvation based only on belief. We can say that such an idea is analogous to a person who forces others to think as they do with the threat of violence. History is full of the terrible results of such attitudes, and the notion that Divinity is simply some kind of inquisitor is perverse and distorted. We touched on this at the start of this essay, and by now one can hopefully understand that the so-called “Elect” of such an absurd so-called deity are far from being genuinely any kind of Elect, unless by chance they happen to manifest good moral qualities.

We can go on like this, but the point is already made. God is indeed Sovereign, He can do just as He pleases. However there are nonetheless things He cannot do, for He is Goodness, and He acts in accordance with His Nature.

We will leave you to consider the further implications of all this, with the suggestion that this means of conceiving (or one hopes, perceiving) the Divinity, demonstrates that a number of the commonly held dogmas of the Abrahamic religions are untenable.
I like this topic, it's different than the usual posts at VC. :)

I think it's wondrous that Plato, regarded as the highest of classical Greek philosophy, named God, the All, Good! Certainly not every group has come to the same conclusion.

You bring up several interesting subjects, one being that we have to question what is objective truth, and what are the means of obtaining clarity to know truth. In a world so full of noise, opinions, and diversions, how can we be sure what we "believe" is accurate? It's a fair question to ask. For the most part we inherit a tradition through our family/society and this serves as a base for our internal dialogue, but it shouldn't end there. If we state we care about the the truth, spirit, spirituality, the afterlife, etc. then there has to be some type of discipline or practice to connect with Reality. There is a great saying which applies here, "Question Everything"!

Your central point is that the view of Plato is contradictory to an understanding of God in the OT. In the OT we read that God expressed jealousy, punished enemies or lawbreakers, commanded Israel to make war on their neighbors. While allusions and symbol are made in praise of the God of the OT, I think in many ways both Islam and Christianity have more in common with Plato's theology. In those systems there are consequences for acting disorderly, but the overwhelming theme is love and mercy.

There are a lot of things you brought up and I hope to reply more later.
 

Jayda

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The scriptures are never wrong but I’m wrong in John 1:1-4 and John 1:14?

Without faith you can’t be saved and without faith you can’t please God..it starts with faith. They first had to believe in Acts 16:29..being baptized had nothing to do with it..it was secondary.

I agree you can’t say you’re saved and spend your life as an alcoholic..but I think that you can be saved and struggle with alcohol. We all struggle with something (s). But, I do also believe that God can and will save you from it.

I thought we were washed from our sins through the blood of Jesus...the blood of Jesus, His Son cleanses us from all sin, 1 John 1:17..not being baptized.

No, we are never perfect and holy and yes God does forgive our sins and they aren’t used against us but it’s because of Jesus and His sacrifice that we are cleansed, and our believing in Jesus is why we are thought to be perfect and holy..because He is. I’m not sure of the verse you are talking about where Jesus commands us to be perfect.

Yep, sin should not be master over us..we will always be in that fight to not let it master us.
Faith is everything it is crucial to a Christians walk but faith alone won't save you, it is by the blood of the Lamb that we are cleansed ofc but the way the blood is imputed and made effectual on the person's life is if they believe on the name od Gods only begotten son, repent from their sins and baptised in the name of Jesus Christ,
The scriptures are never wrong but I’m wrong in John 1:1-4 and John 1:14?

Without faith you can’t be saved and without faith you can’t please God..it starts with faith. They first had to believe in Acts 16:29..being baptized had nothing to do with it..it was secondary.

I agree you can’t say you’re saved and spend your life as an alcoholic..but I think that you can be saved and struggle with alcohol. We all struggle with something (s). But, I do also believe that God can and will save you from it.

I thought we were washed from our sins through the blood of Jesus...the blood of Jesus, His Son cleanses us from all sin, 1 John 1:17..not being baptized.

No, we are never perfect and holy and yes God does forgive our sins and they aren’t used against us but it’s because of Jesus and His sacrifice that we are cleansed, and our believing in Jesus is why we are thought to be perfect and holy..because He is. I’m not sure of the verse you are talking about where Jesus commands us to be perfect.

Yep, sin should not be master over us..we will always be in that fight to not let it master us.
Yes faith is crucial but faith alone can't save us, the blood of Jesus Christ is imputed and made effectual in a person's life when they believe on the name of Gods only begotten Son, repent from their sins, and are baptised in the name of Jesus Christ. It is by baptism that one comes to be in Christ and a member of the body of Christ.

It is not our belief that we are made perfect and holy, as I said before devils believe but they are not made perfect and holy through their belief. If we believe then we must obey the word of God "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother" - 1 John 3: 6-10, You can be perfect and holy, examples of people in the bible that God clearly says was perfect is Noah (Genesis 6:9), Job (Job 1:1).

Gods commandment to be perfect is in Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect".
Also 2 Corinthians 13:9, Colossians 1:28, 2 Timothy 3:17, 1 Peter 5:10, 2 Peter 3:14
 

Lisa

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Yes faith is crucial but faith alone can't save us, the blood of Jesus Christ is imputed and made effectual in a person's life when they believe on the name of Gods only begotten Son, repent from their sins, and are baptised in the name of Jesus Christ. It is by baptism that one comes to be in Christ and a member of the body of Christ.

It is not our belief that we are made perfect and holy, as I said before devils believe but they are not made perfect and holy through their belief. If we believe then we must obey the word of God "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother" - 1 John 3: 6-10, You can be perfect and holy, examples of people in the bible that God clearly says was perfect is Noah (Genesis 6:9), Job (Job 1:1).

Gods commandment to be perfect is in Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect".
Also 2 Corinthians 13:9, Colossians 1:28, 2 Timothy 3:17, 1 Peter 5:10, 2 Peter 3:14
Who are you copying and pasting from?
 

shankara

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Those people that belong to those religious groups and even most Christians won't make it into the Kingdom of Heaven, they don't worship or serve the one true God neither do they believe and obey the gospel of Christ. I don't quite get the parables if all religions had the same meaning then why would be they different? If the father didn't specify what the gift was but gave them a gift how is this lying?

I think to understand eternal punishment we need to really understand that God is holy and he wants his kingdom to be pure and perfect just as he is. I think some of us may see Hell as an unfair punishment because we don't truly understand the depths of God's holiness and we have been so desensitised to how wicked and evil sin is, we are surrounded by sin and this can cause us to measure our own sin where we think a little lie is not the same as murder, but God hates all sin. Hell itself should indicate the severity of sinning.

God definitely punishes us with the intent that we repent from our sin and seek after righteousness, he is not just punishing people for fun. However, if we continue in our sin and die a sinner by denying his mercy and salvation, God has a place for such people. If God was not good he is still God, what difference would it make, I am a human His creation and he is my GOD my creator, what could I do haha?

In my opinion, I think humans can't judge whats good or bad without understanding what's good and bad from God our teacher, left to our own devices we are weak to the flesh and come up with all sorts of justifications for things that are just point-blank wrong like for example the murder of an unborn child.

Question: What do you believe in and what are you trying to gain from this discussion? :)
Well that's the thing isn't it, obedience to the teaching of Christ is quite possible without defining oneself as a Christian. People can behave well simply due to having a good heart, or one can read the Gospel and do what it tells you while not believing that the Deity of the so-called "Christians" is the only deity.

So the parables about the unity of the different religions are suggesting that they are different ways of saying the same thing. Like you say, the point is to become free from sin, and so the different prophets, teachers, avatars, whatever you want to call them, are trying to get people to turn away from the material world towards the spiritual. They teach whatever is necessary to get people to engage in ethical behavior, Buddha for example refused to answer certain questions because people knowing the answers wouldn't contribute to a "turning around".

The analogy with road signs I made is suggesting that people with different psychologies due to culture and other factors are like people coming to a place from a different starting point. The different religions seem to say different things, one says "go that way" another says "go this way", but they are pointing towards the same place, self-purification, virtue, devotion to Truth and Love. The other parable from the Lotus Sutra is that the father says to one child "I'll give you this", to another "I'll give you that" and actually gives them all the same. Again, it's the idea that the different teachings are suited to different temperaments but they all have the same goal of getting people out of the "burning house" which is Samsara, the material world.

I don't personally see Hell as unfair, but eternal hell is quite a different matter. Surely punishment should accomplish something, bring rehabilitation? Without going into a whole argument for the comparative wisdom of reincarnation, it's pretty clear to me that God could not be such a tyrant as to make people suffer without it intending to accomplish something in terms of their purification, not only during this short life but also afterwards.

Which brings me to the whole point about God being Good. Are you familiar with the concept of the Demiurge? This is the notion that the world was created by a "blind god" who is not the true God, that is the God of Light, the Supreme Being. Actually the Demiurge doesn't have to be the creator of the world, but he is the "god of this world". In Gnosticism, Christ is considered a sort of Avatar of the Supreme Being, which is why the world hates Him. The point I'm trying to make is that if the god of some particular religion is not in conformity with Goodness, such a god cannot be the Supreme Being, but must be a Demiurge of some form of another.

So what I'm saying is, even if a Deity created you (or your material body, because the Soul is not created by the Demiurge but rather comes from the Light), if it is not Good then such a Deity should not be worshiped, because that would be basically the worship of antiChrist.

As for knowing Good and Bad, I disagree with you saying that we cannot know it. My treatise clarifies this, making the point that we can know Good and Bad only if we realize that the material world is a place of temptation, a place to be tried and to suffer in order to overcome ourselves and make ourselves worthy of returning to the Spiritual World. From this perspective, knowing that vices bind us to the material world and prevent our spiritual progress, keep us in the transient and separate us from the eternal (this is the key point), I believe we can make some judgements about Good and Bad.

People of a worldly mindset would say that it is bad to have a negative opinion about something like homosexuality, for example, because we should accept all types of behavior. Obviously this is wrong from a spiritual perspective, and so we have to judge Good and Bad from this viewpoint, but when we have developed this perspective we can make clear judgements. If you read the thing I wrote, I suggest that these judgements can also apply to the nature of God.

Myself, I am a kind of Gnostic. I believe that all religions are one, but that Christ was the highest teacher, the Logos. My purpose throughout this discussion has been to advance the arguments I made in the treatise which was the original post in this thread. I hope that in doing so I might bring a little clarity. Emotional faith can be good or bad, but when faith is grounded in reason it becomes deeper and more potent.
 

Lisa

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Mar 13, 2017
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Lol I don’t get it most of that is scripture so I guess I copy and pasted it from the... bible. What did you think?
What website did you copy and paste your reply from? You must know the answer to that...
 

shankara

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I like this topic, it's different than the usual posts at VC. :)

I think it's wondrous that Plato, regarded as the highest of classical Greek philosophy, named God, the All, Good! Certainly not every group has come to the same conclusion.

You bring up several interesting subjects, one being that we have to question what is objective truth, and what are the means of obtaining clarity to know truth. In a world so full of noise, opinions, and diversions, how can we be sure what we "believe" is accurate? It's a fair question to ask. For the most part we inherit a tradition through our family/society and this serves as a base for our internal dialogue, but it shouldn't end there. If we state we care about the the truth, spirit, spirituality, the afterlife, etc. then there has to be some type of discipline or practice to connect with Reality. There is a great saying which applies here, "Question Everything"!

Your central point is that the view of Plato is contradictory to an understanding of God in the OT. In the OT we read that God expressed jealousy, punished enemies or lawbreakers, commanded Israel to make war on their neighbors. While allusions and symbol are made in praise of the God of the OT, I think in many ways both Islam and Christianity have more in common with Plato's theology. In those systems there are consequences for acting disorderly, but the overwhelming theme is love and mercy.

There are a lot of things you brought up and I hope to reply more later.
Yeah the Old Testament God is an interesting thing, of course some Gnostics consider Him to be a Demiurge. Personally I think that all of the things about war and triumphing over enemies etc are symbolic of an internal battle, like the Bhagavad Gita. If it were not so then it would definitely be right to think of "Jehovah" as a Demiurge but I really don't think that's exactly the case. Some of the books of the Old Testament or Torah are very beautiful, personally I really like Exodus which casts God as the revolutionary against the Egyptians. It's a very beautiful metaphor for attaining the state of internal freedom, and how God helps us in doing so.

If it were not all symbolic and metaphoric then I can't really understand how someone can believe in such a deity, who seems to use the same kind of military tactics as the Americans, "shock and awe". Not to mention all the other impossible and absurd things in the Old Testament which just couldn't have happened literally - all humanity being descended from two people, an ark containing every species of animal on the earth etc etc etc. Actually literal interpretation takes the beauty out of it and turns it into a book of violence and horror, when in spirit it isn't that at all.
 
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