The Sovereignty Of God

[shankara]

@shankara

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Furthermore this Chosen Elect do not require any extraordinary human or moral qualities, but rather may be chosen simply for professing the ‘correct’ doctrine. Because God can judge by whatever standard He wishes, He is quite entitled to judge in this way.​

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Entitled, sure... but He doesn't. Paul, for instance, killed Christians-- with zeal.

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Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out threats and murder against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest to ask for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any men or women belonging to the Way, he could bring them as prisoners to Jerusalem.​

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As Saul drew near to Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?”​

ACTS 9​

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So in this passage I was explaining the concept of the Sovereignty of God, not my conclusion about whether such a doctrine is tenable. I don't quite understand what you're getting at, you're saying that Paul became a believer despite killing Christians before? Because this would be in some way like the point I was trying to suggest, that the Christian deity seems to judge by arbitrary standards, rather than based on virtue.

Of course this particular case you give is interesting. I would say that perhaps Paul was a Gnostic of some kind and understood repentance not to be simply changing belief but a process of self-purification. Perhaps. The other possibility is that Paul actually didn't comprehend the real doctrine of Christ's (Gnostic) disciples and that Pauline "Christianity" is a distortion of Christ's message.

I'm still struggling to see exactly what you're getting at, given that you seem to be responding to the part where I was giving a definition of the concept being discussed rather than any of my actual arguments.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Effectively you are saying that in the matter of Predestination, God's choice is beyond our understanding and we cannot make any judgement about whether this is Just. The crux of the article is that we can develop insights into the activity of God by means of analogy with Goodness in the human realm (so long as our analogies are based on the correct spiritual understanding of Good).

Imagine if a government were to give a lot of money to some people without any basis in merit, and at the same time put some people in prison whether or not they deserve it. We would surely say that is the height of tyranny.

You said it yourself, God is Sovereign. With Israel He says," It is not as though the word of God hath taken no effect, for they are not of Israel who are of Israel. Neither because they are the seed of Abraham are they all Children, But in Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God, But the children of promise (God's promise) are counted as the seed.
For this is the word of (God's) promise, "at this time will I come and Sarah shall have a son. And not only this, when Rebecca conceived by one, even by our father Isaac (For the children not being yet born) having not done anything good or evil, That the purpose of God according to Election, might stand (not of works), But of God who calleth. It was said unto her, the elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then, Is there unrighteousness with God?.....No, God forbid!
So Then, it is not of him who willeth, nor of him that runneth, But of God who showeth Mercy. (Study Romans 9:6-33)

 

[shankara]

You said it yourself, God is Sovereign. With Israel He says," It is not as though the word of God hath taken no effect, for they are not of Israel who are of Israel. Neither because they are the seed of Abraham are they all Children, But in Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God, But the children of promise (God's promise) are counted as the seed.
For this is the word of (God's) promise, "at this time will I come and Sarah shall have a son. And not only this, when Rebecca conceived by one, even by our father Isaac (For the children not being yet born) having not done anything good or evil, That the purpose of God according to Election, might stand (not of works), But of God who calleth. It was said unto her, the elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then, Is there unrighteousness with God?.....No, God forbid!
So Then, it is not of him who willeth, nor of him that runneth, But of God who showeth Mercy. (Study Romans 9:6-33)

Well no, that isn't exactly my argument. My argument is actually that there are limits on the things which God can do, because His Nature of Goodness limits Him. I furthermore try to demonstrate that this Goodness can be understood by analogy with the visible world. So the analogy I used still holds:

Imagine if a government were to give a lot of money to some people without any basis in merit, and at the same time put some people in prison whether or not they deserve it. We would surely say that is the height of tyranny.

Now if you can demonstrate that I am wrong in suggesting that God's Goodness can be understood by analogy with human goodness, or that the analogy I gave is incorrect and there is a more appropriate one, then you would have an argument. As it is you're just quoting some scripture at me. Obviously you consider it be the self-justifying absolute truth which must be interpreted literally, however unfortunately that doesn't hold much weight as a logical argument, it doesn't refute the logical foundations of my premises.

Personally I'm totally open to the idea that the Bible is a Holy Book, though I would interpret it symbolically. However I would say that if something is true spiritually, there should be a means of demonstrating it inductively or deductively from discernible facts. This is only my point of view, however, and I'm not quite at the stage in my own journey where I think that everything I believe is necessarily correct.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Well no, that isn't exactly my argument. My argument is actually that there are limits on the things which God can do, because His Nature of Goodness limits Him. I furthermore try to demonstrate that this Goodness can be understood by analogy with the visible world. So the analogy I used still holds:



Now if you can demonstrate that I am wrong in suggesting that God's Goodness can be understood by analogy with human goodness, or that the analogy I gave is incorrect and there is a more appropriate one, then you would have an argument. As it is you're just quoting some scripture at me. Obviously you consider it be the self-justifying absolute truth which must be interpreted literally, however unfortunately that doesn't hold much weight as a logical argument, it doesn't refute the logical foundations of my premises.

Personally I'm totally open to the idea that the Bible is a Holy Book, though I would interpret it symbolically. However I would say that if something is true spiritually, there should be a means of demonstrating it inductively or deductively from discernible facts. This is only my point of view, however, and I'm not quite at the stage in my own journey where I think that everything I believe is necessarily correct.

You must be born again! Scripture and doctrine is not for private or personal interpretation. The Scriptures explain themselves.

 

[Axl888]

Another example of action not in accordance with the nature of Goodness, would be if God were to award salvation to a person simply due to a deathbed repentance (perhaps made out of fear). Such an act may improve the person’s spiritual situation in some way, but would certainly not win them a place among the righteous. If that were the case then it would render all struggle for righteousness meaningless, if the same can be attained without effort. No God who is Just would permit such a thing, and Justice is another essential element of Goodness. The analogous human situation would be if a person were to have equal respect for somebody trying to manipulate their way into their good graces and a true friend who had been loyal to them for a long time.

Of course this will be difficult for some people to hear, as it is a commonly held opinion that God awards salvation based only on belief. We can say that such an idea is analogous to a person who forces others to think as they do with the threat of violence. History is full of the terrible results of such attitudes, and the notion that Divinity is simply some kind of inquisitor is perverse and distorted. We touched on this at the start of this essay, and by now one can hopefully understand that the so-called “Elect” of such an absurd so-called deity are far from being genuinely any kind of Elect, unless by chance they happen to manifest good moral qualities.

Indeed God has chosen His people (both Israelites/Jews and Gentiles) from the beginning (2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 9:24-27), but who they are, only God knows.

While God has already chosen His people and salvation has already been prepared for them, because of free will, some will choose to reject God and the salvation that He had prepared for them. And so, it is in my opinion that the Elect does not constitute all of God's chosen people from the beginning. The Elect is of God's chosen people but only those who have true faith in Him and have held on to it until the end. True faith in God is not as simple as a statement like "it is just a belief" that some people would say and think, you and I (or even a person in deathbed) can shout out to the whole world as loud as we can that we believe in God and have faith in Him, but only God can really see what is truth in our hearts and minds (Psalm 33:15), more often even us ourselves being blinded by spirits of confusion and deceit are not able to discern whether our hearts/minds are telling the truth or not (Jeremiah 17:9).

The Elect having true faith does good works and follows His commandments, for the fruit of true faith is good works. And so, if a person claims to have faith in God but does not manifest good works, he/she is lying to everyone, to himself and to God (Mark 7:6).

True Faith is God's basis in merit for the Elect, for the Elect had received God's Grace through Faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).

 

[shankara]

Indeed God has chosen His people (both Israelites/Jews and Gentiles) from the beginning (2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 9:24-27), but who they are, only God knows.

While God has already chosen His people and salvation has already been prepared for them, because of free will, some will choose to reject God and the salvation that He had prepared for them. And so, it is in my opinion that the Elect does not constitute all of God's chosen people from the beginning. The Elect is of God's chosen people but only those who have true faith in Him and have held on to it until the end. True faith in God is not as simple as a statement like "it is just a belief" that some people would say and think, you and I (or even a person in deathbed) can shout out to the whole world as loud as we can that we believe in God and have faith in Him, but only God can really see what is truth in our hearts and minds (Psalm 33:15), more often even us ourselves being blinded by spirits of confusion and deceit are not able to discern whether our hearts/minds are telling the truth or not (Jeremiah 17:9).

The Elect having true faith does good works and follows His commandments, for the fruit of true faith is good works. And so, if a person claims to have faith in God but does not manifest good works, he/she is lying to everyone, to himself and to God (Mark 7:6).

True Faith is God's basis in merit for the Elect, for the Elect had received God's Grace through Faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).

You have an interesting conception, it seems that you are saying that sincerity is of great importance and that true faith will be demonstrated by a pure life. This makes a lot more sense than saying it is simply a matter of accepting the doctrine and even that one is "forever saved" simply by doing so.

I have some problems with any notion of Predestination and it seems to me that even the more reasonable forms of the Christian God are, well, Demiurges basically. Nonetheless what you are saying makes a lot more sense than the kind of ideas that many people are posting on here.

I hope you found my short treatise of interest.

 

[Jayda]

God not only warns about the punishment, but He also provides the way out of the punishment, and we don’t have to do anything but believe...that’s it. How is that evil?

My friend,
Indeed we have to believe on Jesus Christ but this alone won’t save us from the lake of fire. If we believe on him but don’t obey his commandments then our faith is vain, even devils believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God but they are still damned. Faith alone won’t save us, Jesus Christ said “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”.

It is through baptism that our old man is buried (who was a sinner and walked according to the flesh) and it is through baptism whereby we put on the new man who walks in the spirit as a saint. “Know ye not, that so many of us aswere baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life”- Romans 6:3-5.It is through baptism that we come to be in Christ(Galatians 3:27). In order for us to inherit the kingdom of heaven we must walk in repentance, holiness and righteousness, we must be perfect!(1 Peter 1:15-17, 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Philippians 1:11, James 1:4)

The false churches will tell you that “you can’t be perfect” or “you’ll always be a sinner” but if that was the case you couldn’t inherit the kingdom of God. See Jesus himself said“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect” and many scriptures state the simple fact that the end of a sinner is hell “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”Revelation 21:8

We will fall and sin at times, but what’s important is we quickly get back up, and with a true repented heart we confess our sin to God who is just to forgive us, our sin will then be covered by the blood of Christ and blotted out so that we can continue to stand in the presence of God in holiness. A sinner is someone who sins say in day out, they are not truly remorseful of their sins, they are not conscious of many of their sins and they don’t turn from their sins. They may think by telling God they have sinned they are forgiven, but it is just mere words their heart is still corrupt and they still have a reprobate mind.

Ps. I posted this comment on another thread, but have seen you also have commented here

 

[shankara]

This thread has gone quite off topic... I don't think there's been a single actual meaningful response to any of the arguments I advanced. Guess this isn't the place...

 

[Lisa]

This thread has gone quite off topic... I don't think there's been a single actual meaningful response to any of the arguments I advanced. Guess this isn't the place...

That’s weird, what do you think a meaningful response is?

 

[shankara]

That’s weird, what do you think a meaningful response is?

A response which actually attempts to refute any of the arguments I gave rather than simply professing individual beliefs and quoting scripture.

 

[Lisa]

A response which actually attempts to refute any of the arguments I gave rather than simply professing individual beliefs and quoting scripture.

You’ve gotten responses that refuted what you said...just because you don’t happened to believe that they were meaningful doesn’t mean that they weren’t...

 

[Jayda]

The doctrine of the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD is that He can do whatever He pleases. There are no limits upon Him, and we cannot impose upon Him human conceptions of Right and Wrong. The criteria by which He judges are beyond our understanding and don’t have to conform with any human notion of Justice. If He wishes to sentence the majority of humanity to Eternal Damnation (conceived of by some as a pit of flames, literally speaking!), and save the Chosen Elect, He is quite entitled to do so. Furthermore this Chosen Elect do not require any extraordinary human or moral qualities, but rather may be chosen simply for professing the ‘correct’ doctrine. Because God can judge by whatever standard He wishes, He is quite entitled to judge in this way.

Or is He, in fact? Are there limitations on God’s Sovereignty? Are there things that God cannot do? If so, who or what is not allowing Him to do those things, what is the source of the limitation on His power?

God created all things, He is the beginning and the last, He is the Almighty, there is none greater than Him. We are his creation so we should reverence God, he is the All-knowing and we are merely humans with limited understanding and power so yes he can do as he pleases and we are blessed to have a good God, one who has given us a choice, hope, life and salvation and we are faithful that our Father does all things for our good. The criteria by which he judges is simple if you're a sinner you are going to Hell, if you're a saint you are going to Heaven. He has clearly identified in the scripture what makes you a sinner and what makes you a saint. It is not just simply a profession of faith but the elect do indeed require extraordinary human and moral qualities to walk in holiness obeying all the commandments of God in this corrupt and evil world, God has made the devil the prince of this world and Satan knows exactly who Gods elect are, so he is relentless in his attacks against true Christians, that is why many are chosen but few are called. God can do anything his one and only limitation is that he can not lie because the word he speaks is truth.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." - Isaiah 55:8-9

 

[shankara]

You’ve gotten responses that refuted what you said...just because you don’t happened to believe that they were meaningful doesn’t mean that they weren’t...

Really Lisa? Could you point them out to me please, perhaps with a short explanation of how they logically relate to the arguments presented in the piece?

 

[Lisa]

My friend,
Indeed we have to believe on Jesus Christ but this alone won’t save us from the lake of fire. If we believe on him but don’t obey his commandments then our faith is vain, even devils believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God but they are still damned. Faith alone won’t save us, Jesus Christ said “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”.

It is through baptism that our old man is buried (who was a sinner and walked according to the flesh) and it is through baptism whereby we put on the new man who walks in the spirit as a saint. “Know ye not, that so many of us aswere baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life”- Romans 6:3-5.It is through baptism that we come to be in Christ(Galatians 3:27). In order for us to inherit the kingdom of heaven we must walk in repentance, holiness and righteousness, we must be perfect!(1 Peter 1:15-17, 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Philippians 1:11, James 1:4)

The false churches will tell you that “you can’t be perfect” or “you’ll always be a sinner” but if that was the case you couldn’t inherit the kingdom of God. See Jesus himself said“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect” and many scriptures state the simple fact that the end of a sinner is hell “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”Revelation 21:8

We will fall and sin at times, but what’s important is we quickly get back up, and with a true repented heart we confess our sin to God who is just to forgive us, our sin will then be covered by the blood of Christ and blotted out so that we can continue to stand in the presence of God in holiness. A sinner is someone who sins say in day out, they are not truly remorseful of their sins, they are not conscious of many of their sins and they don’t turn from their sins. They may think by telling God they have sinned they are forgiven, but it is just mere words their heart is still corrupt and they still have a reprobate mind.

Ps. I posted this comment on another thread, but have seen you also have commented here

Ya, I saw that you posted this twice...I’ll answer here since @shankara thinks her thread is dead anyway...

Have you never read John 3:16? For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whomsoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life? Is this wrong...because if it is...

Acts‬ ‭16:29-31‬ ‭
And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.​

Seems like faith is enough to start the process, one must continue to be in the faith to be saved though, without faith it is impossible to please Him.

Hebrews‬ ‭11:6‬ ‭
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
​

‭‭It is true that after you are saved by believing in Jesus, then the Holy Spirit comes to you and lives with in your heart with you..

‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭1:21-22‬ ‭
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
​

As for being baptized in Christ...I think Christians want to get baptized to say publicly I believe in Jesus...

You forget the Galatians 3:25-26 But not that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Jesus Christ. And..sure we must keep in the faith and not be deceived to continue on in the faith, unless you believe like so many do that once saved is always saved...

You say that the church tells us that we will always be sinner and can’t be perfect and then in the next paragraph you say we will fall and sin at times...isn’t that the same thing?

No one is going to be perfect and not sin in Christ..but I agree, hopefully you will repent of your sins when you do. We are all still sinners, did the sin nature in us go away when we believed? We still have that striving against sin that we must contend with. I think its deceitful to think that Christians don’t or can’t sin and that they are somehow perfect, we aren’t perfect though I think its the Christians duty to resist sin and call on God to help them in resisting.


‭‭

 

[Lisa]

Really Lisa? Could you point them out to me please, perhaps with a short explanation of how they logically relate to the arguments presented in the piece?

I don’t have all the time in the world to rehash everything that you’ll just reject again anyway...

 

[shankara]

God created all things, He is the beginning and the last, He is the Almighty, there is none greater than Him. We are his creation so we should reverence God, he is the All-knowing and we are merely humans with limited understanding and power so yes he can do as he pleases and we are blessed to have a good God, one who has given us a choice, hope, life and salvation and we are faithful that our Father does all things for our good. The criteria by which he judges is simple if you're a sinner you are going to Hell, if you're a saint you are going to Heaven. He has clearly identified in the scripture what makes you a sinner and what makes you a saint. It is not just simply a profession of faith but the elect do indeed require extraordinary human and moral qualities to walk in holiness obeying all the commandments of God in this corrupt and evil world, God has made the devil the prince of this world and Satan knows exactly who Gods elect are, so he is relentless in his attacks against true Christians, that is why many are chosen but few are called. God can do anything his one and only limitation is that he can not lie because the word he speaks is truth.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." - Isaiah 55:8-9

Ok, interesting, we agree on some things. For one the notion that to be a part of any genuine Elect requires moral qualities, that is to say obeying the Christ rather than simply believing in the Christ. But what would you make of say a Hindu, or a Buddhist, or a Muslim, who is on the same ethical level? Would the gates of Heaven be open to them as well?

Now, what you say about God not being able to lie also accords with what I was saying, after all to lie would not be in accordance with the nature of Goodness. However we have to properly define the concept of lying. I came up with an analogy of road signs. If one is coming from the east, the road sign would have some certain directions to the place where one is going, coming from the west different directions. Does this not suggest that all religions can have the same essential meaning, none of them being lies but simply ways of pointing to the same thing?

There's another parable in this regard. A father sees that his children are in a burning house (the material world) and promises them all a gift if they leave the house. When they leave he gives them a gift, but not exactly what he promised. Is this lying, or does the good intention make it truth?

But are there other things God cannot do if He is Good? For example:

Well, how could a God who is Good condemn souls to suffer for an Eternity? If we were to encounter someone so severe that they would continue forever in hate for a mistake made in a moment (which is all our life is), would we consider them Good? Rather, we would surely consider them to be a tyrant, a person whose forgiveness would not even be worth seeking. It may be that heinous acts (“sins”) merit suffering, but if such suffering should not have the aim of eventually proving redemptive, being punishment without rehabilitation, this would not be Goodness but the height of cruelty.

Can He punish without intent to rehabilitate, or would this be Evil/Bad and therefore not in accordance with the nature of God? And if God is not Good, and did not conform to the nature of God, would He be worthy of worship or be a Demiurge?

The quote you give from Isiah is interesting, I think we are incapable of fully comprehending Divinity, actually it makes sense in relation to a part of my argument, which was that humanity's psyche is disordered and subjective, incapable of directly perceiving Truth, the living reality of things. But surely we can understand what is Good enough to draw conclusions about how a Good God would act?

 

[shankara]

I don’t have all the time in the world to rehash everything that you’ll just reject again anyway...

Please Lisa, just one thing which actually directly relates with the premises of the piece and expresses an argument rather than an opinion or statement. To make it easy for you I'll repost the summary of my argument:

• We ask whether God is limited by anything. It is generally held that God is not limited by human conceptions, that He is beyond our logic. We will ask what is meant by human conceptions.
• We do not in our normal state have insight into reality, we are subjective and incoherent, we are "the Intellectual Animal". We hold opinions, which are partial representations of, or projections onto, Reality. They never fully correspond with the living Reality of things.
• It is possible to develop direct insight into reality, including spiritual realities, by the process of Asceticism and Meditation
• Plato possessed this direct insight, understood spiritual reality. His teachings go beyond "human conceptions", disordered subjectivity.
• For Plato in his Theory of Forms, "Goodness" was the highest form (this has some correspondence with the Christ. "The One" was considered the highest form by Neo-Platonists but this is not relevant.)
• We can draw conclusions about the activity of Ultimate Goodness by observing Goodness in the physical realm, among human beings. This is conditional on understanding what Goodness in the human realm is, i.e. that life is transient and that attachment to fleeting pleasures is negative.
• Some attributes of the Form of Goodness, that is to say, attributes of God the Logos, are given. Various analogies with human life are given in an attempt to develop understanding of the Divinity.
• The final conclusion is that God is Sovereign, however His sovereignty is limited by His own Nature, Goodness, which He acts in accordance with.

 

[shankara]

@Lisa actually maybe the thread isn't dead, @Jayda is saying some interesting stuff.

 

[Lisa]

@Lisa actually maybe the thread isn't dead, @Jayda is saying some interesting stuff.

I don’t doubt that you like her stuff....

 

[Lisa]

Please Lisa, just one thing which actually directly relates with the premises of the piece and expresses an argument rather than an opinion or statement. To make it easy for you I'll repost the summary of my argument:

Isn’t everything you think and like just opinion or a statement? You agree with some things and not with others. You hold Plato up as a guiding light..unless of course he says something positive about Jesus.. while I hold up God and His word the Bible as a guiding light. After all Jesus says He is the light of the world..why would you or anyone else need any other? All the world is in darkness...so to believe someone that someone in darkness wrote doesn’t make you enlightened but deceived...why would anyone look beyond God’s word the Bible to learn about who He is anyway?

Since God is good, then He alone knows what reality is and isn’t, we who are sinners can’t really know the reality without God. Our sins and our evil hearts will tell us the things we want to hear and know about...
Jeremiah tells us that our hearts are more deceitful than anything else and desperately sick ..Jeremiah 17:9. The only book then that can shed light onto our actual reality is the Bible, the book inspired by God. Our actual reality is that we have all gone astray and we are all sinners.

What does this have to do with God’s sovereignty? That without the Bible we cannot understand Him or His sovereign nature. Some think that being sovereign means that God should be controlling except when He shouldn’t...God is therefore put into a box according to our own whims and desires and cannot deviate from that to be seen as real.

In the end you’ll only like things that line up with what you think anyway and discredit and discount anything else...always learning but never coming to the truth.