The Shape of Water

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#21
The way I see it, submitting to a physically monstrous character is no different than submitting to an emotionally monstrous one. The romance genre is filled with stories of women chasing after abusive love interests. At least in many of the crappy paranormal romance stories, whatever sort of fantastic character the heroine ends up shagging is usually kind.

Part of the problem lies in the fact that in movies and television, since they are created with mass market appeal, you need to end up making characters more likable. The Lucifer television series is an example. In the comic book the series is very, very loosely based on the titular character is a lot more of an asshole... But I think that has less to do with any sort of insidious plot and more to do with the fact that the average person really doesn't want to see complex characterization. They want clear cut good guys and bad guys. Hell, even in stories that claim to be morally ambiguous, the villain usually ends up being over-the-top evil mainstream audiences usually don't like not knowing who to root for. For most people, entertainment is something where they shut their minds off and don't like to think to much.

As for previously evil creatures being washed up, it's because people like the bad boy... And what's more bad than a vampire, werewolf, or some other creature that goes bump in the night. It's repeated, over and over, because it sells. Eventually, it'll stop selling. And then they'll move on to something else... Usually, more extreme, until people get tired of the extreme and things flip back around.

I don't think that a love story between a fish-man and a woman has anything to do with God, one way or another, either.





You're talking about real life, then?

Well, no. I don't believe that humans and demons, if they exist, wouldn't be acceptable. Since you know, at least according to religions, demons are creatures of genuine evil without any morality. I'm not even sure if I could consider them free-willed, as much as a spiritual "artificial intelligence" for a lack of a better term.

My post has nothing to do with real life, though. It's about fiction. In general, as an author myself, I find myself very frustrated with modern conspiracy theorists thinking that everything is part of some satanic conspiracy and that even stories people tell have some sort of insidious ploy.
Okaaaay... :confused:
Your use of the word "really" obviously led me to believe you were bringing it over to a real life scenario.

If there were really sapient, free-willed non-human creatures... "

The OP has a point though-- if such a thing does exist, as you asked, it makes sense that stories would serve as propaganda. Imo, anyway.
 





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#24
It's hypothetical but if an alien and a human are of comparable intelligence, then I could see human and aliens being in relationships. But you have to learn each other's language first.
Naturally.

I was just kidding btw. :p
 





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#25
It's hypothetical but if an alien and a human are of comparable intelligence, then I could see human and aliens being in relationships. But you have to learn each other's language first.
I'd find their offspring strange. I don't see how intelligence comes into it; they'd be biologically incompatible and spawn some disturbing beings. I think we'd be able to live amicably, a bit similiar to a world where we'd coexist with robots but relationships? I'd have to disagree there lol
 





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#26
I'd find their offspring strange. I don't see how intelligence comes into it; they'd be biologically incompatible and spawn some disturbing beings. I think we'd be able to live amicably, a bit similiar to a world where we'd coexist with robots but relationships? I'd have to disagree there lol
What if they were indistinguishable from humans.. ?
 





mecca

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#28
I'd find their offspring strange. I don't see how intelligence comes into it; they'd be biologically incompatible and spawn some disturbing beings. I think we'd be able to live amicably, a bit similiar to a world where we'd coexist with robots but relationships? I'd have to disagree there lol
Are you referring to human-alien offspring or just alien offspring? In the case of human-aliens I'm assuming that they would not be able to create offspring since they are two different species.

Intelligence plays in because of consent, if it is not at the same level of intelligence as you are, then the relationship would not be equal. Both the alien and the human have to have around the same level of understanding.
 





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#29
I'd have to say I'm on the same page with Corvus on this front. There are certainly films out there which push and promote insidious agendas, and films out there very much worth examining for the peek behind the curtain they offer, but fantasy is often just fantasy, and fantasy is Guillermo Del Toro's realm. Indeed, he's obviously quite 'occult'-minded; most all of his films dealing with ghosts, devils, ghouls, goblins, dwarves, satyrs, and various other fantasy creatures, this film no different really, just a retelling- as I understand it- of:

Only way less rapey and a lot more romantic. I surely didn't rush out to see it, probably gonna wait on netflix for that one, so if I'm missing something particularly obscene do-tell, but I don't see this movie as some insidious thrust in new directions, given the premise of sentient monster-people getting into relationships with women has been around for as long as writers have been sitting around dreaming them up, which is a long damn time. Dirty, dirty minds, those writers.

If there's one thing I find slightly suspicious in all this it's the level of acclaim the movie is getting. I had no idea, for example, that the Oscars were so into fish-dicks.
 





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#31
But what about aliens, which are biological/physical animals from other planets? What if there was an alien that was of comparable intelligence to humans and we came into contact with them, would that human-alien relationship be wrong?
I think an alien might me better than a human honestly. We kind of suck.
 





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#32
I'd find their offspring strange. I don't see how intelligence comes into it; they'd be biologically incompatible and spawn some disturbing beings. I think we'd be able to live amicably, a bit similiar to a world where we'd coexist with robots but relationships? I'd have to disagree there lol
If we're biologically incompatible there'd be no offspring.
 





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#33
Okaaaay... :confused:
Your use of the word "really" obviously led me to believe you were bringing it over to a real life scenario.

If there were really sapient, free-willed non-human creatures... "

The OP has a point though-- if such a thing does exist, as you asked, it makes sense that stories would serve as propaganda. Imo, anyway.
Well, even in real life, if something was sapient (i.e.: self-aware and has the ability to philosophize) and free-willed (i.e.: able to chose to make its choices) I'd think both parties could consent to a relationship... Assuming both creatures are "of age" in their respective cultures.

Yes, how could you think it would be right?
Why would it be wrong?
 





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#34
Well, even in real life, if something was sapient (i.e.: self-aware and has the ability to philosophize) and free-willed (i.e.: able to chose to make its choices) I'd think both parties could consent to a relationship... Assuming both creatures are "of age" in their respective cultures.

Why would it be wrong?
lol
Interspecies relationships is a novel topic.


Lol that's true.
That's revolting. lol

But it does bring to mind the fish-god, Dagon. The popes mitre is modeled after it, supposedly.


Bigger res here: Dagon
 





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#35
I don't think its anything related to conspiracy theories or whatever. TVD, lucifer,this movie or many other books, comics and novels show these relationships with non-human characters as another form of "forbidden romance". Its fiction, its a genre and its quite famous cause people have their preferences. People who like vampire novels won't necessarily like werewolves and vice versa and same applies to other stories too,
You find it sick? Good for you. Also its nothing new, we have seen this stuff since ancients times. stories of these kind of romances have been part of literature since a long time ago. Faeries, mermaids etc

I do, however, find the poem played at the end of the movie like that disturbing. I don't know about it but seeing what you wrote does kind of disturb me. Taking a poem about true love aka love for the Creator/God and putting it like that for some woman and her lover fish is weird and disrespectful. But then again some people are too dumb to even comprehend the love a believer has for God.

The creature in the movie does look hideous and is technically a fish but switch the genders or turn the creature into a handsome guy with a fishtail and suddenly it becomes a norm that we have seen since we were kids.
 





llleopard

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#36
In the context of a story, sure. Maybe in your setting, demons are just the beings of a different dimension, inclined to evil because they are born into an existence where evil rules, but can ultimately chose between good and evil. Stories aren't real life and while people can argue that they can influence people, I'd imagine most people can actually tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

I mean, is it something I think people should try to do in real life? No. But in the romance genre, there's hell (no pun intended) of a lot of things that are problematic in real life. Hell, even non-romance stories often have love interests that are portrayed as sexy or funny in universe, but in real life would be awful... So, yeah.

Stories are stories. Real life is real life. The two aren't connected... And if you can't tell the difference, you've got bigger problems than wanting to bugger the Devil.
www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=11976493
And a couple of weeks later they had a 'pregnancy scare'....