The seven I AM statements of Jesus

Todd

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these archetypes are a reality, they exist in our subconscious mind, are collectively shared, even if a person never met jesus and lived in africa or east asia the image associated with his name will exist. of course no one can disassociate Christianity with 'white people' anyway so by extention Jesus becomes white.
if he appeared in a dream to anyone he would be white, because it's the archetype that would make an appearance .

there is no chance any one of you think of Jesus without the archetype. These images of 'what Jesus may have looked like' are white.

@Todd that's a 'scientific' image if you will, that is contrary to the archetypal image...and i know you're selecting that image right now because you're thinking logically..but archetypes are not logical...

the image matters in the context of what i was saying ie that when I think of the LOGOS i think of a metaphysical reality, the universal consciousness etc..whereas when the ave christian thinks it, they are thinking 'white Jesus'. if he was arab or indian brown they would not give a shit about the man Jesus. it is their identification of their own religion/culture (judeo-christian) they associate with the logos...as Jesus.
they don't think of a universal aspect that surpasses every form/color/language etc...

for the sake of convenience it appeared as the jewish messiah, but that doesnt mean that is all it is. I am dead sure the logos has come on earth through people of every color at one point in time...and not necesserily playing the role of a religious leader.
to me it represents the ultimate archetype of every form.

if you read the Bhagvad Gita, Arjuna is shown the reality of 'vishnu' (again i have to emphasise this point, vishnu is the logos) and he sees infinite forms...something impossible to truely describe. not just life forms but planets/stars/galaxies, colours etc.

so yeh when i think of the logos i think in that sense..an infinite reality i call 'the expression of God'.
So you aren't talking about the historical Jesus then....got it.
 

elsbet

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"to you, the logos is Jesus and it is Jesus who personally created the world....white Jesus."

Seriously?!
Maybe so.

There are youtube cults popping up with race-driven identities. They talk about their topic, then wrap it with heavy dose of evil for perceived evil. Message lost to both parties-- video's host, and the viewer.
 
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ok look at it this way guys
again, just open your mind to the idea that the logos and vishnu are the same (i mean they def are but to you, you are not familiar so you wouldnt accept it yet, but metaphysically its the same idea).
Here is what Vishnu/the logos says through Krishna about 'itself' as it were

O Arjuna! I am the Fluidity in water, the Light in the sun and in the moon. I am the mystic
syllable Om in the Vedic scriptures, the Sound in ether, the Virility in man.
I am the Fragrance of earth, the Brilliance of fire. I am the Life Force in all beings, and I am
the Austerity of the ascetics.
Know, O Arjuna, that I am the eternal Seed of being; I am the Intelligence of the intelligent,
the Splendour of the resplendent.
I am the Strength of the strong, of them who are free from attachment and desire; and,
O Arjuna, I am the Desire for righteousness.
Whatever be the nature of their life, whether it be pure or passionate or ignorant, they are
all derived from Me. They are in Me, but I am not in them.
 
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So you aren't talking about the historical Jesus then....got it.
the moment you talk about 'historical Jesus' your referring to history as you have been given it.
i suppose it's best to learn the Ethiopian language and read their version of Jesus.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Just for the fun of it I googled "accurate image of what jesus might have actually looked like"

Some of what I found

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/a234/1282186/
https://www.livescience.com/61875-what-did-jesus-look-like.html
https://www.star-telegram.com/news/nation-world/world/article202574679.html

The image that Richard Neave came up with is probably closest I have seen to what I imagine in my mind.

In the end it's not the physical image of Jesus in our minds that is important though....
I found the forensic side of the following two videos really interesting:-



 

Red Sky at Morning

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@Todd

This one is a bit more meaty but looks at the evidence of the shroud and face cloth in the same way you might examine a crime scene. I might have to watch it twice but the information is fascinating...


1 Corinthians 15

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.
 
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@elsbet The Preexistance of Christ is not being disputed at all (John 17).

Did you know though, that there are at least two Christian denominations (I'm not a member of either, but they are the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Seventh Day Adventists) who identify Christ as being (The Prince) Michael, the Archangel (Rev. 12:7), according to how they read the Bible?

(Not sure if a lot of Christians are even aware of it).
 

Red Sky at Morning

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@bible_student

Consider this with respect to Michael and Jesus:-

Jude 9

9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Matthew 4

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
 
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Joshua
5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, [Art] thou for us, or for our adversaries?
5:14 And he said, Nay; but [as] commander of the army of the "I AM" am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
5:15 And the commander of the "I AM"'s army said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest [is] holy. And Joshua did so.
 

elsbet

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@elsbet The Preexistance of Christ is not being disputed at all (John 17).
Ok... but I'm not talking about the 'pre-existence' of Christ, so I'm a little confused by that statement.

Did you know though, that there are at least two Christian denominations (I'm not a member of either, but they are the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Seventh Day Adventists) who identify Christ as being (The Prince) Michael, the Archangel (Rev. 12:7), according to how they read the Bible?

(Not sure if a lot of Christians are even aware of it).
Jehovah's Witnesses are not a Christian denomination... they are Jehovah's Witnesses. I'm not inclined to put the Adventists in the same category, simply because I'm a fan of Walter Veith. That aside, what is your point?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Joshua
5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, [Art] thou for us, or for our adversaries?
5:14 And he said, Nay; but [as] commander of the army of the "I AM" am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
5:15 And the commander of the "I AM"'s army said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest [is] holy. And Joshua did so.
The version I have (NKJV) renders "I AM" as Lord, so I looked it up...

Turns out the Hebrew word is "Yahweh".

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/yahweh_3068.htm

So here we have what is surely a pre-incarnate Jesus commanding the armies of Yahweh. I love what he says when he is asked if he was for them or against them. A refreshing rebuke for somebody who might have begun to think he was at the forefront of God's plans!
 

elsbet

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The version I have (NKJV) renders "I AM" as Lord, so I looked it up...

Turns out the Hebrew word is "Yahweh".

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/yahweh_3068.htm

So here we have what is surely a pre-incarnate Jesus commanding the armies of Yahweh. I love what he says when he is asked if he was for them or against them. A refreshing rebuke for somebody who might have begun to think he was at the forefront of God's plans!
I was just reading about this, albeit a different source, Red. I love it, too. :)
 
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Ok... but I'm not talking about the 'pre-existence' of Christ, so I'm a little confused by that statement.

Jehovah's Witnesses are not a Christian denomination... they are Jehovah's Witnesses. I'm not inclined to put the Adventists in the same category, simply because I'm a fan of Walter Veith. That aside, what is your point?
Lets see what the Seventh-day Adventists have to say:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: Seventh-day Adventists
See also: Seventh-day Adventist, beliefs about Michael and Pre-existence of Christ

Seventh-day Adventists, being of the Protestant heritage,
lineage and faith, believe that Michael is another name for the eternal Son of the Father, the Heavenly Christ, and another name for the Word-of-God (as in John 1) before he became incarnate as Jesus.

"Archangel" (meaning " Chief of the Angels", "highest messenger ") was the leadership position as held by the Word-of-God as Michael while among the angels.

According to Adventist theology, Michael was considered the "eternal Word" , and not a created being or created angel, and the one by whom all things were created.

The Word was then born incarnate as Jesus.[62] Seventh-day Adventists believe the name "Michael" is significant in showing who he is, just as "Immanuel" (which means "God with us") is about who Jesus is. They believe that name "Michael" signifies "one who is God" [Michael means "Who is like God" - bible_student] and that as the "Archangel" or " chief or head of the angels " he led the angels and thus the statement in Revelation 12:7-9 identifies Jesus as Michael.[63]

Seventh-day Adventists believe that "Michael" is but one of the many titles applied to the Son of God, the second person of the Godhead. According to Adventists, such a view does not in any way conflict with the belief in his full deity and eternal preexistence, nor does it in the least disparage his person and work.[64]

In support of the Seventh-day Adventist belief, Michael is also identified by them as being the very commander of Heavenly legions of the hosts of the LORD, God's invincible army , which helped Joshua son of Nun to lead Israel in to conquering Jericho [Joshua 5:14 - "And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship , and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?"] In the Seventh-day Adventist view, the statement in some translations of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel , and with the trump of God" identifies Jesus as Archangel, which is Michael. [65] (Other translations have " For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel , and with the sound of the trumpet of God.")[66] And the Seventh-day Adventists believe that John 5:25-29 also confirms that Jesus and Michael are the same .[65] Because of this belief that the Archangel Michael and Jesus Christ are one in the same, many mainstream theologians and academics in the field of Judeo- Christian history place Seventh Day Adventists in a unique category as a branch of, yet outside, mainstream Christianity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_(archangel)
 
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elsbet

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ok look at it this way guys
again, just open your mind to the idea that the logos and vishnu are the same (i mean they def are but to you, you are not familiar so you wouldnt accept it yet, but metaphysically its the same idea).
Here is what Vishnu/the logos says through Krishna about 'itself' as it were

O Arjuna! I am the Fluidity in water, the Light in the sun and in the moon. I am the mystic
syllable Om in the Vedic scriptures, the Sound in ether, the Virility in man.
I am the Fragrance of earth, the Brilliance of fire. I am the Life Force in all beings, and I am
the Austerity of the ascetics.
Know, O Arjuna, that I am the eternal Seed of being; I am the Intelligence of the intelligent,
the Splendour of the resplendent.
I am the Strength of the strong, of them who are free from attachment and desire; and,
O Arjuna, I am the Desire for righteousness.
Whatever be the nature of their life, whether it be pure or passionate or ignorant, they are
all derived from Me. They are in Me, but I am not in them.

They are in Me, but I am not in them.
VISHNU


I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be perfected into one, and that the world may know that Thou didst send me, and didst love them as Thou didst love me.

JOHN 17:23

They are quite different.
 
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They are in Me, but I am not in them.
VISHNU


I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be perfected into one, and that the world may know that Thou didst send me, and didst love them as Thou didst love me.
JOHN 17:23

They are quite different.
You didn't understand what was said there.
The qualities of nature, the 3 gunas...
Vishnu is not in them but but above(from a metaphysical pov). Throughout the book it becomes pretty clear that Vishnu is in all of us, in fact that Is a big Hindu belief since they are panthiest. But it is looked at from the metaphysical pov ie lower and higher aspects of self/reality.

Also that quote of Jesus is not applicable to all things but to the disciples. It also isn't an absolute perspective...it is equal to the concept of Marifah in Islam which means 'gnosis' where Jesus is in them on account of their mutual love.
These are bigger themes that obv require a more in depth understanding.
 
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@elsbet
"Among thousands of mortals a single one perhaps strives for perfection, and among those so striving perhaps a single one knows me as I am. Earth, water, fire, air, and akasa, Manas, Buddhi, and Ahankara is the eightfold division of my nature. It is inferior; know that my superior nature is different and is the knower; by it the universe is sustained; learn that the whole of creation springs from this too as from a womb; I am the cause, I am the production and the dissolution of the whole universe. There is none superior to me, O conqueror of wealth, and all things hang on me as precious gems upon a string. I am the taste in water, O son of Kunti, the light in the sun and moon, the mystic syllable OM in all the Vedas, sound in space, the masculine essence in men, the sweet smell in the earth, and the brightness in the fire. In all creatures I am the life, and the power of concentration in those whose minds are on the spirit. Know me, O son of Pritha, as the eternal seed of all creatures. I am the wisdom (1) of the wise and the strength of the strong. And I am the power of the strong who in action are free from desire and longing; in all creatures I am desire regulated by moral fitness. Know also that the dispositions arising from the three qualities, sattva, rajas, and tamas, are from me; they are in me, but I am not in them. The whole world, being deluded by these dispositions which are born of the three qualities, knoweth not me distinct from them, supreme, imperishable.


Keep in mind here that in my understanding the logos/Vishnu is not the Trancendent Essence of God. That is Brahman.
Hough Hindus don't pretend Brahman from Vishnu and regards the. To be one and the same...with diff application.
It is pretty much that same theme of the logos/son and the Father but an older version.
Keeping in mind here that Krishna was the incarnation of Vishnu...
Just like Jesus was the incarnation of the logos.

My main point here is for you to be aware of the wider history of these concepts and how they are not unique to Jesus. Believe it or not the world and universe is much bigger than the Jewish old testament story.
Humans have been around at least a few hundred thousand years.
 
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