The seed of the serpent

elsbet

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For those who might be interested, and because these ideas, found in the Bible, of the "serpent's seed" and "nephilim" have long intrigued the human imagination, here is something from Jewish midrashic, that is to say "extra-Biblical" legend and lore. This excerpt I quote involves the potentially mysterious birth of Cain, and only one (rabbinic) version or tradition at that, but if you click the source link, further details of the process by which the here specifically named angels, Shemhazai and Azazel, "left their first estate," that is, the presence of God, and became not only corrupt but also the cause of further corruption are given. What is more, the legend, here described, of the fallen angels and nephilim ties into Babylonian star lore, with Ishtar [Istahar] having a supporting role in the drama (subsection "The Star Maiden"). I post for informational purposes only and for what it may be worth.
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"... This [referenced] myth is a response to the enigmatic verse in which Eve says, I have gotten a man with the aid of Yahweh (Gen. 4:1). Targum Pseudo-Yonathan translates this verse as “I have acquired a man, the angel of the Lord.” One reading of this verse in the Talmud (B. Shab. 146a) suggests that Eve had intercourse with the serpent: “When the serpent consorted with Eve, he cast impurity into her.” This interpretation is echoed in the [Kabbalah] Zohar: “From the impurity with which the serpent infected Eve emerged Cain.” Pirkei de-Rabbi Eliezer builds on the talmudic interpretation, but changes it in an essential way. Here the true father of Cain is the angel [sometimes known as demon] Samael, who came to Eve riding on the serpent. Indeed, in this passage the angel and serpent are closely linked, creating a satanic figure and suggesting that Eve had intercourse with the serpent, a powerful phallic symbol.


In Pirkei de-Rabbi Eliezer, the Torah upbraids Samael as he rides upon the serpent like a camel: “The Torah began to cry aloud, saying, ‘Why, O Samael, now that the world is created, is it time to rebel against God? Is this the time to lift yourself on high? God will laugh at the horse and its rider.’” This establishes the role of the Torah as the defender of the human race against the evil intentions of Samael. Zohar 1:36b explains that two came upon Eve, the serpent and Adam, and that she became pregnant from both of them, and bore two sons. The son of the serpent is, of course, Cain. In order to explain why Cain was evil and Abel was good, Zohar 1:54a explains that Cain was conceived from the side of unholiness and Abel from the side of holiness. As a result, Abel was in the likeness of God’s image, as stated in the verse And God created man in His image (Gen. 1:27). But Cain was of the likeness of the nether image. Just what this is isn’t clear, although one commentary, Ziv ha-Zohar, identifies the nether image as that of an ape [which "serpent's seed" ideas, at times, give rise to racist mythologies and religiously-based ideologies, such as, for instance, so called "Christian Identity"]. Because Cain was from the side of the Angel of Death (another possible explanation of the “nether image”), he killed his brother ..."


I love [love, love] your formatting.

And looking forward to reading the linked material, as well. Some of this stuff is still cited in prognostication and such, like True Lilith, and (I think) Dark Moon Lilith... they are just points in the sky, but some people take it quite seriously-- both the placements and the notion that Adam had an ex-wife.
 

TokiEl

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Greek mythology is the history of the human angelic hybrids or nephilim.

Those were the heroes of old.

Now could some still survive in remote areas on the earth or underground ?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Greek mythology is the history of the human angelic hybrids or nephilim.

Those were the heroes of old.

Now could some still survive in remote areas on the earth or underground ?
Interesting that Marvel [at the Beast?] and The Avengers [for what, I wonder - the flood, perhaps?!] draw their characters and plotlines from Greek and Roman gods, yet bring the stories up to date and fuse them with transhumanism and western occultism.

E.g:

 

TokiEl

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Interesting that Marvel [at the Beast] and The Avengers [for what, I wonder] draw their characters and plotlines from Greek and Roman gods, yet bring the stories up to date and fuse them with transhumanism and western occultism.
Yes it's very interesting.

They know...

If you're looking for truths then go see a movie.


With the advancements in genetic engineering biological bodies can be built with form and function according to imagination.
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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There is a possible significance to IXXI I have been wondering if I dare mention.

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/ixxi-re-examined.2942/

I don't know what might come of all this, but in my spiritual sci-fi imagination, I felt like Marlon Brando at the the end of Apocalypse Now, when I considered the implications of the Mark, as he says with his dying breath "the horror".


P.s. as this is a topic I have touched on with @Faker He-Man , I think perhaps he and others might be interested by the interplay between esoteric and biblical perspectives on these issues.
 
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Karlysymon

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But the Bible says that sons of God or ben elohim procreated with women who bore them nephilim.

So it ought to be undebatable.

Besides there is a lot of folklore of giants and reported skeletons of giants which the Smithsonians conveniently come in and cover up.


So you should look into it and ask why the public is kept in the dark about it.


"But still there is more. It calls up the indefinite past. When Columbus first sought this continent – when Christ suffered on the cross – when Moses led Israel through the Red-Sea – nay, even, when Adam first came from the hand of his Maker – then as now, Niagara was roaring here. The eyes of that species of extinct giants, whose bones fill the mounds of America, have gazed on Niagara, as ours do now. Co[n]temporary with the whole race of men, and older than the first man, Niagara is strong, and fresh to-day as ten thousand years ago. The Mammoth and Mastodon – now so long dead, that fragments of their monstrous bones, alone testify, that they ever lived, have gazed on Niagara. In that long – long time, never still for a single moment. Never dried, never froze, never slept, never rested." - Abraham Lincoln the 16th President of the United States.
Of course you know that I don't dispute that there were giants, I just believe they were ordinary humans just like us. Thing is, you won't give me an explanation for the existence of giant plants and insects in the antediluvian world. In humans and animals, you fault Satan and his hordes. So, iam still waiting for a solid answer.


Dan Carlson set out to mini- experiment the early earth's hydrological cycle
and plants grew to a gigantic size.






Which makes sense, that all creatures living in this kind of environment, that the Creator pronounced "very good" (Gen 1:31), would be big, sturdy and with a long life span. When the "fountains of the deep burst forth", earth underwent some sort of trauma and that system was destroyed because God said that He would "destroy both them and the earth" (Gen 6:13). Hence you also see a decline in man's longevity (Gen 11). The Psalmist wrote that; "Our days may come to seventy years, or eighty, if our strength endures"(90:10), yet the antediluvians lived to 10x that! In other words, after the flood, everything reduced to a 10th of its original size: Adam=930yrs, contemporary man=93yrs or less than 120.


Fossil vs modern roach.

It is a degeneration, caused by the flood and the natural consequences of sin.
So, comparing age and stature, there was residue, post-flood. Just as you have the giant Anakites and Rephaites, you also have people like Abraham living to 175yrs, Isaac 180yrs, Job 200+yrs?.
Small stature is just not favorable and at the renewal of all things, there'll be a restoration of the original. "For as the days of a tree, so will be the days of my people" (Isaiah 65:22).

God did not create the race in its present feeble condition. Man came from the hand of his Creator perfect and beautiful in form. If Adam, at his creation, had not been endowed with twenty times as much vital force as men now have, the race, with their present habits of living in violation of natural law, would have become extinct.

https://www.genesispark.com/exhibits/early-earth/larger-organisms/

https://www.genesispark.com/exhibits/early-earth/atmosphere/

So, for me, the human-angel hybrid theory puts my mind in knot. It dredges up so many questions that don't have answers, neither which the Bible will furnish. And in that respect, its the only way that Christ was affected, in that He didn't come in Adam's physical perfection before the Fall but bore physical degeneration of post-Flood man (Isaiah 53:2), disregarding a corrupted bloodline.
 

TokiEl

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Of course you know that I don't dispute that there were giants, I just believe they were ordinary humans just like us. Thing is, you won't give me an explanation for the existence of giant plants and insects in the antediluvian world. In humans and animals, you fault Satan and his hordes. So, iam still waiting for a solid answer.
Good post but...

How could they be ordinary humans when they had angels as fathers ?
 
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Karlysymon

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Good post but...

How could they be ordinary humans when they had angels as fathers ?
Thank you. But just help me out here...

You believe the pre-flood giants were as a result of human-angel marriages.
But there is the evidence of giant plants, animals and insects in the antediluvian world. So, from your position, I want you to account for giantism in pre-flood fauna and flora. Its not the first time iam asking this. Answers aren't always forthcoming from people who hold your position.
When you guys furnish a solid reason as to why fauna and flora were 10x the size of what we have now, only then will the human-angel hybrid theory hold water. Iam patiently waiting....
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Thank you. But just help me out here...

You believe the pre-flood giants were as a result of human-angel marriages.
But there is the evidence of giant plants, animals and insects in the antediluvian world. So, from your position, I want you to account for giantism in pre-flood fauna and flora. Its not the first time iam asking this. Answers aren't always forthcoming from people who hold your position.
When you guys furnish a solid reason as to why fauna and flora were 10x the size of what we have now, only then will the human-angel hybrid theory hold water. Iam patiently waiting....
Ok, despite the information in Genesis 6 on the Nephilim and mention through the book of Joshua, the Bible is almost silent on the genetic issue.

The Book of Enoch makes stronger hints that it wasn't only humans that were corrupted. As this is a doubtful text, perhaps part pseudepygraphal , I don't lean to heavily on it, but I do wonder about some of the more eye popping implications of angelic intrusion into the genome.

I also think the Bible may be deliberately silent on certain issues because God knows what we are like - I.e. how many times does the grass look tempting for a picnic when the little sign says "Keep off the grass".
 

Mr.Grieves

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When you guys furnish a solid reason as to why fauna and flora were 10x the size of what we have now, only then will the human-angel hybrid theory hold water. Iam patiently waiting....
The Book of Enoch makes stronger hints that it wasn't only humans that were corrupted. As this is a doubtful text, perhaps part pseudepygraphal , I don't lean to heavily on it, but I do wonder about some of the more eye popping implications of angelic intrusion into the genome.
These debates are extremely interesting to me, if not more than a little strange. The effort to reconcile Biblical literalism with modern science and logic reminds me of Vodou or Santeria, the efforts of indigenous peoples to reconcile their original beliefs with the Catholicism imposed upon them, creating a strange hybrid.

While I don't buy into this reptilian business, I must admit the Pope's 'Serpent-Stadium' blew my mind!
 

Red Sky at Morning

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These debates are extremely interesting to me, if not more than a little strange. The effort to reconcile Biblical literalism with modern science and logic reminds me of Vodou or Santeria, the efforts of indigenous peoples to reconcile their original beliefs with the Catholicism imposed upon them, creating a strange hybrid.

While I don't buy into this reptilian business, I must admit the Pope's 'Serpent-Stadium' blew my mind!
I can see why it must seem strange to you!!!!

The idea of malevolent extra-dimensional beings wishing to corrupt the human genome to make it no longer fully human sounds like pure sci-fi.

As does transhumanism, synthetic DNA, new chimeric life forms, 2045.com...
 

elsbet

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Of course you know that I don't dispute that there were giants, I just believe they were ordinary humans just like us. Thing is, you won't give me an explanation for the existence of giant plants and insects in the antediluvian world. In humans and animals, you fault Satan and his hordes. So, iam still waiting for a solid answer.
My mother has lemons like that on her lemon tree... they weigh the whole branch down. :oops:

Sounds like it's really just a question of scale. A 10ft tall person would be giant to us-- but even if that was the norm back then, a 15ft person would still be a giant to them.

Still, something I've noted a few times now-- the word NEPHILIM derives from naphal, meaning fallen. GIANT is rapha, I believe... closer to Rephaim.

As an aside... Kent Hovind has some really good info on the antediluvian world, if you're interested... dragonflies the size of kites.
:D



I also think the Bible may be deliberately silent on certain issues because God knows what we are like - I.e. how many times does the grass look tempting for a picnic when the little sign says "Keep off the grass".
And you still have your own Nephilim thread around here, somewhere... you rebel, you.

I'll have to give it a bump and put it back in rotation. :D

The book of Enoch, which I think may have been found with the rest of the scriptures in the caves at Qumran, explained that it was intended for a much later generation...

CHAPTER I.
1. The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect ⌈⌈and⌉⌉righteous, who will be living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked ⌈⌈and godless⌉⌉ are to be removed. 2. And he took up his parable and said-- Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, ⌈which⌉the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is for to come...
 

elsbet

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They lost their heavenly bodies and yet satan has the ability to appear as he was, the guardian cherub (2cor 11:14).
No, not lost... voluntarily abandoned. And if Psalm 82 is connected, then we know that they have been condemned by God to die like men.
 

Karlysymon

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Ok, despite the information in Genesis 6 on the Nephilim and mention through the book of Joshua, the Bible is almost silent on the genetic issue.
But why? For something stated to be sooooo serious it called for the Flood, the Israelites, apparently tasked with wiping out nephilim progeny, why are the patriarchs, the prophets, Christ, virtually everyone silent on the one thing that threatened the Redemption plan?
Yes, there is a plan to fundamentally change man as he is. DARPA is planning on giving each of us an extra chromosome, the 47th. That can only mean one thing...extinction.
My mother has lemons like that on her lemon tree... they weigh the whole branch down. :oops:
I guess you are hinting at genetic modification. Even the chicken, puffed up with growth hormones, collapse under their own weight. GM for you.
Thanks, will check out Hovind.

Just want to add that I also once subscribed to that position because that's what the televangelists taught me but the myriad of questions it dredged up never went away.
 
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TokiEl

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Thank you. But just help me out here...

You believe the pre-flood giants were as a result of human-angel marriages.
That's what the Bible says so i believe it... besides we got the folklore and bones to prove that there were giants.



But there is the evidence of giant plants, animals and insects in the antediluvian world. So, from your position, I want you to account for giantism in pre-flood fauna and flora. Its not the first time iam asking this. Answers aren't always forthcoming from people who hold your position.
When you guys furnish a solid reason as to why fauna and flora were 10x the size of what we have now, only then will the human-angel hybrid theory hold water. Iam patiently waiting....
Before the Flood the earth must have been much smaller and so much less gravity upon the fauna and flora.

Now those human angelic hybrids did not stop growing just like reptiles don't stop growing. And so we have a plausible explanation as to why the devil is called serpent and dragon.


So the Bible is not silent about the human angelic hybrids. But it is almost glossed over because the devil got to have something to work with or the truth can't be too obvious as that would not be fair for the devil. And trust me God is fair to everybody.
 
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elsbet

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But why? For something stated to be sooooo serious it called for the Flood, the Israelites, apparently tasked with wiping out nephilim progeny, why are the patriarchs, the prophets, Christ, virtually everyone silent on the one thing that threatened the Redemption plan?
Yes, there is a plan to fundamentally change man as he is. DARPA is planning on giving each of us an extra chromosome, the 47th. That can only mean one thing...extinction.

I guess you are hinting at genetic modification. Even the chicken, puffed up with growth hormones, collapse under their own weight. GM for you.
Thanks, will check out Hovind.
You'll probably love him. And no, I wasn't pointing to GM, in this case-- hadn't thought of it, tbh. We're famous for citrus fruit where I live... that's all.

Just want to add that I also once subscribed to that position because that's what the televangelists taught me but the myriad of questions it dredged up never went away.
I don't watch television, much less money-driven televangelists. What position are you talking about, exactly?
 

Karlysymon

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I don't watch television, much less money-driven televangelists. What position are you talking about, exactly?
I meant that i also once believed in the whole human-angel hybrid theory because that's what i was raised to believe. Its what most people believe, just ask any random christian on the street. But my questions never went away nor were they answered. The local church pastor just says "oh, the nephilim were fallen angels" but ignore every single question that statement dredges up. I wouldn't be suprised if iam the only one on the board who believes that they (nephilim) were ordinary humans. Its a position that is bibilically supported and can withstand scrutiny, so iam stuck to that.
 
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