The Scandal of the Gracious Judge - the Uniqueness of the Christian Faith

Red Sky at Morning

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Hinduism is definitely not polytheistic, their theology is Monotheistic.
I was reading around your response and found this one interesting...

How Many God and Goddess are There in Hindu Religion?
“Hinduism or Sanatan Dharma is the oldest living religion on earth.​
However, that’s not the only trait of the Hindu religion.​
In fact, there are many things which make Hinduism unique and one of the most widely accepted religions in the world.​
Typically, Hindu religion is known for its rich and varied festivals, elaborate rituals, scores of religious texts, religious practices, its concept of life, principles, ideology, and of course for its many Gods.​
Hindus are seen worshipping different Gods. Whether it is in the form of Lord Ganesh, Lord Shiva, Lord Vishnu, Lord Krishna, Lord Rama, Lord Hanuman, Goddess Durga, Goddess Lakshmi, Goddess Parvati, Goddess Saraswati, Goddess Kali, and scores of other Gods, and Goddesses.​
How many God and Goddess are there in Hindu religion​
So, an obvious question that comes to our mind is that “How many God and Goddesses are there in Hindu religion?”​
In fact, this question has not only perturbed the Westerners but also many Hindus themselves are not aware of how many God and Goddesses there are in Hinduism.​
It’s very astonishing, but the fact remains that there is much confusion about the number of Gods and Goddesses in the Hindu religion.​
That said, many Hindus believe that there are 33 Crore Gods and Goddesses in Hinduism. However, none know the names of these 33 Crore Gods or 330 Million Gods in the Hindu religion.”​

Accordingly, it appears that Naga Sadhus believe they live out an authentic expression of one god - Shiva while the followers of Hare Krishna have a more “monotheistic” formulation...

“The origin of Hare Krishna, also called Gaudiya Vaishnavism or Chaitanya Vaishnavism, is promoted through the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (or ISKCON). Hare Krishna is a mystical sect of Hinduism. It is usually classified as a monotheistic form of Hinduism, since Hare Krishnas believe that all deities are simply various manifestations of the one god, Vishnu or Krishna. The “monotheism” of Hare Krishna is a little muddled, however, as Sri Krishna has an “eternal consort” named Srimati Radharani; together, Krishna and Radharani comprise the “Divine Couple.”​

I found this summary of the Christian view of the Trinity worth considering:-
“One in essence, three in person” is the most concise definition of the doctrine of the Trinity. The Christian faith is not polytheistic, confessing many individual gods, each with its own peculiar divine nature. The Christian faith is not unitarian, confessing that the one divine nature is possessed only by a single person or a single acting subject. Instead, the Christian faith says that three distinct persons are the one divine nature in its entirety. The Father possesses all that makes God who He is; the Son possesses all that makes God who He is; and the Spirit possesses all that makes God who He is. We do not worship three gods, each of whom has his own power, his own intelligence, and so on. Instead, we worship three persons who hold in common the same power, the same intelligence, and so on.“​

I think to accurately represent the difference between Christian monotheism and Hindu monotheism you might conclude that the Biblical God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit are “one” as in Echad while the many faceted gods of Hinduism are comprehensible distinct and often oppositional expressions of an incomprehensible whole.

The reason why I bring all this up is that I don’t think that Hinduism has the same concept of sin and righteousness as the Abrahamic religions.

I also don’t picture any “endgame” in cyclical Hinduism where evil is finally conquered and where, as the Bible puts it in Habakkuk 2:14 “For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.”
 
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I was reading around your response and found this one interesting...

How Many God and Goddess are There in Hindu Religion?


“Hinduism or Sanatan Dharma is the oldest living religion on earth.​


However, that’s not the only trait of the Hindu religion.​


In fact, there are many things which make Hinduism unique and one of the most widely accepted religions in the world.​


Typically, Hindu religion is known for its rich and varied festivals, elaborate rituals, scores of religious texts, religious practices, its concept of life, principles, ideology, and of course for its many Gods.​


Hindus are seen worshipping different Gods. Whether it is in the form of Lord Ganesh, Lord Shiva, Lord Vishnu, Lord Krishna, Lord Rama, Lord Hanuman, Goddess Durga, Goddess Lakshmi, Goddess Parvati, Goddess Saraswati, Goddess Kali, and scores of other Gods, and Goddesses.​


How many God and Goddess are there in Hindu religion​


So, an obvious question that comes to our mind is that “How many God and Goddesses are there in Hindu religion?”​


In fact, this question has not only perturbed the Westerners but also many Hindus themselves are not aware of how many God and Goddesses there are in Hinduism.​


It’s very astonishing, but the fact remains that there is much confusion about the number of Gods and Goddesses in the Hindu religion.​


That said, many Hindus believe that there are 33 Crore Gods and Goddesses in Hinduism. However, none know the names of these 33 Crore Gods or 330 Million Gods in the Hindu religion.”​


Devas and Brahman are two different things. Brahman is "God" in the total sense, devas are different and not in anyway comparable to any other forms of theism. You're getting your tongue tied in a knot by using the word 'gods and goddesses' to describe the Devas of Hinduism. And no there are not even 33 main ones, only 5 really get any major attention in India and it's the 5 ones that even you would have heard of.
One GOD (capital letters) which is Brahman, many faces which are Devas. I literally already explained this to you several posts ago :rolleyes:

I found this summary of the Christian view of the Trinity worth considering:-

“One in essence, three in person” is the most concise definition of the doctrine of the Trinity. The Christian faith is not polytheistic, confessing many individual gods, each with its own peculiar divine nature. The Christian faith is not unitarian, confessing that the one divine nature is possessed only by a single person or a single acting subject. Instead, the Christian faith says that three distinct persons are the one divine nature in its entirety. The Father possesses all that makes God who He is; the Son possesses all that makes God who He is; and the Spirit possesses all that makes God who He is. We do not worship three gods, each of whom has his own power, his own intelligence, and so on. Instead, we worship three persons who hold in common the same power, the same intelligence, and so on.“​


I do KNOW what the Trinity is and how it's defended, matter of fact I've spent a lot of time with the early Church fathers and I know and respect their intellectual arguments more than the apologetics I get from Protestants.

The whole 'one essence' argument is self-refuting, do you know what "essence" even is? https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/substance/
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-metaphysics/#SubsEsse

I think to accurately represent the difference between Christian monotheism and Hindu monotheism you might conclude that the Biblical God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit are “one” as in Echad while the many faceted gods of Hinduism are comprehensible distinct and often oppositional expressions of an incomprehensible whole.
Yes, I do know my Hebrew, that itself is from the Shema itself which does not teach the Trinity.

Yes Hinduism deals with opposition because opposition has to be resolved for there to be any sense of logical completion and to have coherency, this makes Hinduism quite special in many ways. It deals in Essence, not Form, whereas Christianity deals in Form not Essence.
Hinduism doesn't necessarily admit Devas as literal spiritual realities, it leaves that to the person and their spiritual path, it's between your Soul and God.
God (Brahman) is a direct part of the reality we actually experience and is not the Deva the Hindu devotes themselves to. The Deva is the intermediary between the Soul and God.

This is all completely alien to you, isn't it?

I also don’t picture any “endgame” in cyclical Hinduism where evil is finally conquered and where, as the Bible puts it in Habakkuk 2:14 “For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.”
There doesn't need to be, however there is in Hinduism. There is an equivalent of Heaven called "Moksha", which is an escape from the material world into a union with God. When you serve the purpose of life, you do not reincarnate back here, simple.



p.s. Hopefully you know at this point that Brahma and Brahman are two different things.....
 
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shankara

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I was reading around your response and found this one interesting...

How Many God and Goddess are There in Hindu Religion?


“Hinduism or Sanatan Dharma is the oldest living religion on earth.​


However, that’s not the only trait of the Hindu religion.​


In fact, there are many things which make Hinduism unique and one of the most widely accepted religions in the world.​


Typically, Hindu religion is known for its rich and varied festivals, elaborate rituals, scores of religious texts, religious practices, its concept of life, principles, ideology, and of course for its many Gods.​


Hindus are seen worshipping different Gods. Whether it is in the form of Lord Ganesh, Lord Shiva, Lord Vishnu, Lord Krishna, Lord Rama, Lord Hanuman, Goddess Durga, Goddess Lakshmi, Goddess Parvati, Goddess Saraswati, Goddess Kali, and scores of other Gods, and Goddesses.​


How many God and Goddess are there in Hindu religion​


So, an obvious question that comes to our mind is that “How many God and Goddesses are there in Hindu religion?”​


In fact, this question has not only perturbed the Westerners but also many Hindus themselves are not aware of how many God and Goddesses there are in Hinduism.​


It’s very astonishing, but the fact remains that there is much confusion about the number of Gods and Goddesses in the Hindu religion.​


That said, many Hindus believe that there are 33 Crore Gods and Goddesses in Hinduism. However, none know the names of these 33 Crore Gods or 330 Million Gods in the Hindu religion.”​



Accordingly, it appears that Naga Sadhus believe they live out an authentic expression of one god - Shiva while the followers of Hare Krishna have a more “monotheistic” formulation...

“The origin of Hare Krishna, also called Gaudiya Vaishnavism or Chaitanya Vaishnavism, is promoted through the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (or ISKCON). Hare Krishna is a mystical sect of Hinduism. It is usually classified as a monotheistic form of Hinduism, since Hare Krishnas believe that all deities are simply various manifestations of the one god, Vishnu or Krishna. The “monotheism” of Hare Krishna is a little muddled, however, as Sri Krishna has an “eternal consort” named Srimati Radharani; together, Krishna and Radharani comprise the “Divine Couple.”​



I found this summary of the Christian view of the Trinity worth considering:-

“One in essence, three in person” is the most concise definition of the doctrine of the Trinity. The Christian faith is not polytheistic, confessing many individual gods, each with its own peculiar divine nature. The Christian faith is not unitarian, confessing that the one divine nature is possessed only by a single person or a single acting subject. Instead, the Christian faith says that three distinct persons are the one divine nature in its entirety. The Father possesses all that makes God who He is; the Son possesses all that makes God who He is; and the Spirit possesses all that makes God who He is. We do not worship three gods, each of whom has his own power, his own intelligence, and so on. Instead, we worship three persons who hold in common the same power, the same intelligence, and so on.“​



I think to accurately represent the difference between Christian monotheism and Hindu monotheism you might conclude that the Biblical God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit are “one” as in Echad while the many faceted gods of Hinduism are comprehensible distinct and often oppositional expressions of an incomprehensible whole.

The reason why I bring all this up is that I don’t think that Hinduism has the same concept of sin and righteousness as the Abrahamic religions.

I also don’t picture any “endgame” in cyclical Hinduism where evil is finally conquered and where, as the Bible puts it in Habakkuk 2:14 “For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.”
There is definitely an apocalyptic mythology in Hinduism, the notion of Kalki Avatar. It's expressed differently to the Christian apocalypse due to the whole notion of cyclical time, but actually it's similar to the notion of Yeshua coming to destroy evil and then reign over the "Kingdom of God", a just and righteous form of existence.

Theosophy talks about the "root races", saying that this current fifth root race, having fallen into the deepest possible corruption will be destroyed by Kalki Avatar or "the Second Coming of Yeshua" or whatever you wish to call it, and the sixth root race will consist of those who have purified themselves enough to have escaped the destruction.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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God (Brahman) is a direct part of the reality we actually experience and is not the Deva the Hindu devotes themselves to. The Deva is the intermediary between the Soul and God.

This is all completely alien to you, isn't it?
No...

To use an image, I think Hindus picture a giant continent with Fjords or promenances that explorers may come across (Devas). In exploring a particular one, you gradually move to the centre of whole (Brahma n)

The issue I have is that the outcrops incorporate light and dark, good and evil. I simply don’t believe God is like that.
 
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No...

To use an image, I think Hindus picture a giant continent with Fjords or promenances that explorers may come across (Devas). In exploring a particular one, you gradually move to the centre of whole (Brahma n)

The issue I have is that the outcrops incorporate light and dark, good and evil. I simply don’t believe God is like that.
Like what?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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...the sixth root race will consist of those who have purified themselves enough to have escaped the destruction.
I find the above interesting.

Self-purification as a means to salvation is a common bread in world religions as I think all people have a sense of right and wrong, and the ultimate goodness and holiness of God.

Where I think the Christian Faith differs is that the holiness of God is truly infinite and our ability to approach it by our own works is simply insufficient. Without the Atonement, justification by faith and the imputation of righteousness, we remain in our sin, with our righteousness as filthy rags.

The gospel was an offence to the “good” Pharisees but a lifeline to the lost tax collector...

 
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shankara

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I find the above interesting.

Self-purification as a means to salvation is a common bread in world religions as I think all people have a sense of right and wrong, and the ultimate goodness and holiness of God.

Where I think Christianity differed is that the holiness of God is infinite and our ability to approach it by our own works is insufficient. Without the Atonement, justification by faith and the imputation of righteousness, we remain in our sin, with our righteousness as filthy rags.

The gospel was an offence to the “good” Pharisees but a lifeline to the lost tax collector...

Really... because I see the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector (assuming that's what you're talking about) in a whole different light. The Pharisee is one the who's like "oh yeah I'm ok with God, I'm saved", while the tax collector recognizes his inner misery and the need to make strenuous efforts of self-overcoming.

Red Sky at Morning said:
The issue I have is that the outcrops incorporate light and dark, good and evil. I simply don’t believe God is like that.
Good and Evil is an illusion when viewed from the Eastern perspective. We reap what we sow, but nothing is ever ultimately lost or damaged so it's not possible to speak of anything as "Evil". I wrote about this in the treatise I recently posted on here:

The Problem Of Evil

If life is over at the point of death, if we never again return to another body, how can any injustice we experience – whether it be in our favour or against us – be ultimately justified? Clearly every human soul has a dignity, we are all sparks of the radiant Divinity, we cannot simply dismiss human suffering and the injustice which causes it.Theologians speak of “Natural Evil”, or of “Evil” being a necessary product of “Free Will”,in an attempt to reconcile the existence of God with the suffering in the world. Yet if every soul has it’s dignity, it’s humanity, then can we really dismiss all the pain people go through, say that it is an unfortunate accident? No, a God who would permit suffering without any remedy for that suffering, would be a tyrant. If He was unable to prevent it due to it being a part of Nature, than He would not be a God in the Monotheistic sense, for He would then be constrained by forces beyond His control.

One argument given against the existence of God is in relation to the case of murder. It is suggested that God could understand someone’s intention to commit murder and punish them for it without actually allowing the murder to take place. That He permits such things to happen, the skeptics suggest, is evidence that He is not all-Good or not all-Powerful. This makes a certain amount of sense from the point of view of the Abrahamic religions. If there is one life followed by Judgement, the murderer may take away from a person their opportunity to repent of their sins. So long as Free Will is admitted, it could be the case that a person who is not in a state of repentance but who may enter into repentance later (we are using this terminology in terms of the Abrahamic context), could be deprived by their murderer of the chance of salvation.

Condemning the murderer to hell is not enough. Many people are believed to be going to hell, but the murderer would have to go to a double hell – one for his own failure to attain salvation, another for depriving another of the possibility of salvation. Yet this would not rectify things, for the murdered individual would nonetheless be suffering eternally through the fault of another. Nor does it make sense to suggest that the murdered person goes to some paradise for having been murdered, there would be almost as little justice in this.

From the Eastern perspective, where there is not simply one life followed by Judgement, things make a lot more sense. The person who kills is subject to Karma for having violated the sovereignty of another soul, for having caused them the vast inconvenience of having to reincarnate, grow up, in short rebuild what has been destroyed. As Karma is action, and everything that happens is due to Karma, it is impossible that the person being killed does not have somewhere the seed or potential to experience such a thing. That isn’t to say they are a bad person or an evildoer more than others, and it may be that their being killed is vastly unjust. Whatever the circumstances may be, the murderer suffers the result of their actions, perhaps over the course of many lives, while the murdered receives healing for what has befallen, again perhaps over the course of many lives. This resolves the entire philosophical problem, and allows us to reconcile the necessary damages done by the (limited, yet real) Free Will we are given with Cosmic Justice.

Natural Evil is another case which cannot be resolved, what purpose does it serve for people to die in tidal waves and hurricanes? Again, we cannot say that an all-Powerful God would permit such things. From the Abrahamic perspective they serve no purpose except perhaps “Divine Vengeance”, yet it would not be Just for God to punish whole peoples and countries for the sins of a few, whatever certaindistorted interpretations of the Old Testament may suggest. But from the Easternperspective it is easy to comprehend. We are all attached to the material life, and to realise that life in the world is perpetual insecurity. Nothing is guaranteed to last however much we struggle for it, including our own frail lives, and death at the hands of Nature may for some prove a useful spiritual lesson, leading them in the following life to turn away from the material towards the spiritual. This argument could also apply to the former case we spoke of.

Effectively there is no Evil, there is only the appearance of Evil, things which trouble us from our limited perspective. It is human to be upset when a family member dies, but we do not understand the purposes of it all, the mysterious providence behind it.Quite simply, Western Philosophy does not admit the notion that the world is Illusion, therefore those things which seem to us destructive or unpleasant, which we label “Evil”, are taken for realities when in fact they are like dreams. If we open ourselves to the notion that the soul is not only immortal but also reaps the exact fruits of every one of it’s actions over the course of time, then we can see that in reality it is just “the Dance of Shiva” and everything works itself out in Time.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Really... because I see the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector (assuming that's what you're talking about) in a whole different light. The Pharisee is one the who's like "oh yeah I'm ok with God, I'm saved", while the tax collector recognizes his inner misery and the need to make strenuous efforts of self-overcoming.

Question: "What is the meaning of the Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector?"

Answer: The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector in the Temple (Luke 18:9-14) is rich with spiritual truth. In fact, it contains the very essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ. As verse 9 tells us, Jesus spoke this parable to those who “trusted in themselves that they were righteous and despised others” (NKJV). Jesus spoke often of the issue of righteousness, pleading with His hearers to understand their utter inability to be righteous enough to attain the kingdom of heaven. This knowledge was essential if they were to understand His mission on earth, which was to save sinners—those who knew they could not save themselves.

The Pharisees, on the other hand, thought their own goodness was so impressive that it could not fail to make them acceptable to God. They held rigorously to the ceremonies and traditions of the law, making a public show of their religiosity, all to be seen by other men, many of whom they despised as being beneath them. The Pharisee in the story is the epitome of one who is self-justifying. Notice that his prayer has no elements of confession. He does not ask forgiveness for his sins, perhaps because he believes he has nothing to confess. Nor is there any word of praise or thanksgiving to God. His prayer is all about him. Even the thanks he does offer is designed to exalt himself and place himself above others whom he treats with disdain. Going to the temple to pray with the condition of his heart as it was, he might as well have stayed home. Such a “prayer” is not heard by God.

Unlike the Pharisee, who stands boldly in the temple reciting his prayers of self-congratulation, the tax collector stood “afar off” or “at a distance,” perhaps in an outer room, but certainly far from the Pharisee who would have been offended by the nearness of this man. Tax collectors, because of their association with the hated Romans, were seen as traitors to Israel and were loathed and treated as outcasts. This man’s posture spoke of his unworthiness before God. Unable to even lift his eyes to heaven, the burden of his guilt and shame weighed heavily upon him, and the load he carried had become unbearable. Overcome by his transgressions, he beats his breast in sorrow and repentance and appeals to God for mercy. The prayer he speaks is the very one God is waiting to hear, and his attitude is exactly what God wants from all who come to Him.

The tax collector exhibits precisely what Jesus spoke about in the Sermon on the Mount: “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:3). Being poor in spirit means admitting we have nothing to offer to God to atone for our sin. We come to God as empty, impoverished, despised, bankrupt, pitiable, desperate beggars. The tax collector recognizes his sinful condition and seeks the only thing that can bridge the gap between himself and God. “Have mercy on me,” he cries, and we know from the end of the parable that God heard his prayer for mercy and answered it. Jesus tells us in verse 14 that the tax collector went away justified (made righteous) because he had humbled himself before God, confessing that no amount of works could save him from his sin and that only God’s mercy could.

If we are truly broken-hearted over our sin, we can be assured of God’s boundless love and forgiveness in Christ. He has promised in His word to accept us, love us, and make us alive again through His Son (Colossians 2:13). No amount of good works, church attendance, tithes, community service, loving our neighbor or anything else we do is sufficient to take away the blot of sin and enable us to stand before a holy God on our own. That is why God sent Jesus to die on the cross. His death is the only “work” that is able to cleanse us and make us acceptable to God.

In addition, we must not make the mistake of comparing ourselves with others and gaining confidence from what we see in that comparison. In fact, Jesus specifically warns us against this attitude at the beginning of the parable. When we try to justify ourselves by comparing ourselves to others, we naturally end up despising them. Our standard for comparison is God Himself, and we all fall short of His glory (Romans 3:23).

Recommended Resource: Parables of Jesus by James Montgomery Boice

https://www.gotquestions.org/parable-Pharisee-tax-collector.html
 

shankara

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Question: "What is the meaning of the Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector?"

Answer: The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector in the Temple (Luke 18:9-14) is rich with spiritual truth. In fact, it contains the very essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ. As verse 9 tells us, Jesus spoke this parable to those who “trusted in themselves that they were righteous and despised others” (NKJV). Jesus spoke often of the issue of righteousness, pleading with His hearers to understand their utter inability to be righteous enough to attain the kingdom of heaven. This knowledge was essential if they were to understand His mission on earth, which was to save sinners—those who knew they could not save themselves.

The Pharisees, on the other hand, thought their own goodness was so impressive that it could not fail to make them acceptable to God. They held rigorously to the ceremonies and traditions of the law, making a public show of their religiosity, all to be seen by other men, many of whom they despised as being beneath them. The Pharisee in the story is the epitome of one who is self-justifying. Notice that his prayer has no elements of confession. He does not ask forgiveness for his sins, perhaps because he believes he has nothing to confess. Nor is there any word of praise or thanksgiving to God. His prayer is all about him. Even the thanks he does offer is designed to exalt himself and place himself above others whom he treats with disdain. Going to the temple to pray with the condition of his heart as it was, he might as well have stayed home. Such a “prayer” is not heard by God.

Unlike the Pharisee, who stands boldly in the temple reciting his prayers of self-congratulation, the tax collector stood “afar off” or “at a distance,” perhaps in an outer room, but certainly far from the Pharisee who would have been offended by the nearness of this man. Tax collectors, because of their association with the hated Romans, were seen as traitors to Israel and were loathed and treated as outcasts. This man’s posture spoke of his unworthiness before God. Unable to even lift his eyes to heaven, the burden of his guilt and shame weighed heavily upon him, and the load he carried had become unbearable. Overcome by his transgressions, he beats his breast in sorrow and repentance and appeals to God for mercy. The prayer he speaks is the very one God is waiting to hear, and his attitude is exactly what God wants from all who come to Him.

The tax collector exhibits precisely what Jesus spoke about in the Sermon on the Mount: “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:3). Being poor in spirit means admitting we have nothing to offer to God to atone for our sin. We come to God as empty, impoverished, despised, bankrupt, pitiable, desperate beggars. The tax collector recognizes his sinful condition and seeks the only thing that can bridge the gap between himself and God. “Have mercy on me,” he cries, and we know from the end of the parable that God heard his prayer for mercy and answered it. Jesus tells us in verse 14 that the tax collector went away justified (made righteous) because he had humbled himself before God, confessing that no amount of works could save him from his sin and that only God’s mercy could.

If we are truly broken-hearted over our sin, we can be assured of God’s boundless love and forgiveness in Christ. He has promised in His word to accept us, love us, and make us alive again through His Son (Colossians 2:13). No amount of good works, church attendance, tithes, community service, loving our neighbor or anything else we do is sufficient to take away the blot of sin and enable us to stand before a holy God on our own. That is why God sent Jesus to die on the cross. His death is the only “work” that is able to cleanse us and make us acceptable to God.

In addition, we must not make the mistake of comparing ourselves with others and gaining confidence from what we see in that comparison. In fact, Jesus specifically warns us against this attitude at the beginning of the parable. When we try to justify ourselves by comparing ourselves to others, we naturally end up despising them. Our standard for comparison is God Himself, and we all fall short of His glory (Romans 3:23).

Recommended Resource: Parables of Jesus by James Montgomery Boice

https://www.gotquestions.org/parable-Pharisee-tax-collector.html
Honestly I'm not particularly interested in the interpretation of Yeshua's sayings about Pharisees given by members of a religion which is the very same Phariseeism Yeshua fought against.
 

shankara

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Messages
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Question: "What is the meaning of the Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector?"

Answer: The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector in the Temple (Luke 18:9-14) is rich with spiritual truth. In fact, it contains the very essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ. As verse 9 tells us, Jesus spoke this parable to those who “trusted in themselves that they were righteous and despised others” (NKJV). Jesus spoke often of the issue of righteousness, pleading with His hearers to understand their utter inability to be righteous enough to attain the kingdom of heaven. This knowledge was essential if they were to understand His mission on earth, which was to save sinners—those who knew they could not save themselves.

The Pharisees, on the other hand, thought their own goodness was so impressive that it could not fail to make them acceptable to God. They held rigorously to the ceremonies and traditions of the law, making a public show of their religiosity, all to be seen by other men, many of whom they despised as being beneath them. The Pharisee in the story is the epitome of one who is self-justifying. Notice that his prayer has no elements of confession. He does not ask forgiveness for his sins, perhaps because he believes he has nothing to confess. Nor is there any word of praise or thanksgiving to God. His prayer is all about him. Even the thanks he does offer is designed to exalt himself and place himself above others whom he treats with disdain. Going to the temple to pray with the condition of his heart as it was, he might as well have stayed home. Such a “prayer” is not heard by God.

Unlike the Pharisee, who stands boldly in the temple reciting his prayers of self-congratulation, the tax collector stood “afar off” or “at a distance,” perhaps in an outer room, but certainly far from the Pharisee who would have been offended by the nearness of this man. Tax collectors, because of their association with the hated Romans, were seen as traitors to Israel and were loathed and treated as outcasts. This man’s posture spoke of his unworthiness before God. Unable to even lift his eyes to heaven, the burden of his guilt and shame weighed heavily upon him, and the load he carried had become unbearable. Overcome by his transgressions, he beats his breast in sorrow and repentance and appeals to God for mercy. The prayer he speaks is the very one God is waiting to hear, and his attitude is exactly what God wants from all who come to Him.

The tax collector exhibits precisely what Jesus spoke about in the Sermon on the Mount: “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:3). Being poor in spirit means admitting we have nothing to offer to God to atone for our sin. We come to God as empty, impoverished, despised, bankrupt, pitiable, desperate beggars. The tax collector recognizes his sinful condition and seeks the only thing that can bridge the gap between himself and God. “Have mercy on me,” he cries, and we know from the end of the parable that God heard his prayer for mercy and answered it. Jesus tells us in verse 14 that the tax collector went away justified (made righteous) because he had humbled himself before God, confessing that no amount of works could save him from his sin and that only God’s mercy could.

If we are truly broken-hearted over our sin, we can be assured of God’s boundless love and forgiveness in Christ. He has promised in His word to accept us, love us, and make us alive again through His Son (Colossians 2:13). No amount of good works, church attendance, tithes, community service, loving our neighbor or anything else we do is sufficient to take away the blot of sin and enable us to stand before a holy God on our own. That is why God sent Jesus to die on the cross. His death is the only “work” that is able to cleanse us and make us acceptable to God.

In addition, we must not make the mistake of comparing ourselves with others and gaining confidence from what we see in that comparison. In fact, Jesus specifically warns us against this attitude at the beginning of the parable. When we try to justify ourselves by comparing ourselves to others, we naturally end up despising them. Our standard for comparison is God Himself, and we all fall short of His glory (Romans 3:23).

Recommended Resource: Parables of Jesus by James Montgomery Boice

https://www.gotquestions.org/parable-Pharisee-tax-collector.html
I mean, I believe I have the correct interpretation of that parable, and if that interpretation is correct then the so-called Christians of today are the equivalent of the Pharisees of Jesus' time...
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I mean, I believe I have the correct interpretation of that parable, and if that interpretation is correct then the so-called Christians of today are the equivalent of the Pharisees of Jesus' time...
You are, of course, welcome to hold on to your interpretation but it does run counter to the sense I have always understood the passage to express.


God bless
 

shankara

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You are, of course, welcome to hold on to your interpretation but it does run counter to the sense I have always understood the passage to express.


God bless
Yes, because you interpret it in the sense which it is interpreted by the other followers of your religion, "following the herd". This is of course a natural human tendency...

"Think For Yourself... Question Authority..."
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Yes, because you interpret it in the sense which it is interpreted by the other followers of your religion, "following the herd". This is of course a natural human tendency...

"Think For Yourself... Question Authority..."
I find your words interesting as this is the line that is very often taken with revisionist interpretations.

If anyone had sat me down and impressed upon me the “mainstream” interpretation of that parable, I might have agreed with you, however, I had an audio Bible on cassette as a kid, and that is the way I understood it anyway.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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It may be the oldest religion on earth, but it is not the oldest and first worship of the True God...Adam and Eve were the first worshipers of Almighty God. Everything that came after that was a perversion of God.
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Getting the word “protoevangelium” to rhyme with anything is a tall order, but I had to admire the writer of this rap for having a go!!

 
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shankara

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I find your words interesting as this is the line that is very often taken with revisionist interpretations.

If anyone had sat me down and impressed upon me the “mainstream” interpretation of that parable, I might have agreed with you, however, I had an audio Bible on cassette as a kid, and that is the way I understood it anyway.
Yeah ok so the whole "think for yourself" thing is a bit of a cliche. Nonetheless it's quite clear that you are coming at things with a certain interpretative framework, which so far as I can see doesn't lead to logically plausible or harmonious conclusions.

If there are any other sayings you'd like to hear my interpretation of, send them my way...
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Yeah ok so the whole "think for yourself" thing is a bit of a cliche. Nonetheless it's quite clear that you are coming at things with a certain interpretative framework.
Interpretive frameworks are rather like glasses, sometimes we can forget we are wearing them. In the same way, everyone apart from newborns have a worldview and may be subject to various forms of confirmation bias.

Being aware of this aspect of ourselves is a good thing - we should be aware that there might be conclusions we do not wish for draw, no matter which way the evidence points. It’s always worth exploring the perspectives of others, even if we find their conclusions erroneous.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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... you are coming at things with a certain interpretative framework, which so far as I can see doesn't lead to logically plausible or harmonious conclusions.
This aspect is worth unpacking further:-

Can the concept of a gracious judge make sense? How could God simultaneously insist on perfection yet offer pardon to a thief on a cross?

Could “traditional” Christian conclusions to these questions be plausible, harmonious or make logical sense?
 

shankara

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This aspect is worth unpacking further:-

Can the concept of a gracious judge make sense? How could God simultaneously insist on perfection yet offer pardon to a thief on a cross?

Could “traditional” Christian conclusions to these questions be plausible, harmonious or make logical sense?
The "Good Thief" is the one who "steals fire from the Devil", using (or sublimating, or transmuting) passion to serve reason. The "Bad Thief" does the opposite, using his reason, that is to say cunning, to satisfy desires, becoming in the process a "slave of the Devil".
 
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